David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“I will try to get away from the party politics a little and just express some good wishes to Peter Robinson from my colleagues. I am a few years older than Colum Eastwood, but I do recall that, when I became involved in full-time politics as general secretary of the Alliance Party, Peter Robinson had already been a Member of Parliament for 10 years. That is a measure of an extremely long and very significant career covering very significant events in the life of this region. During those times, his party and mine have had many disagreements; in fact, probably more disagreements than agreements. However, today, I want to recognise his commitment to the political process and the work that he has done, much of it as deputy to Ian Paisley but, in recent years, as the leader in his own right.”
“I certainly hope that that will be the case. We have seen significant progress. There were issues with staffing in the Police Service, and there were changes of staff. We are now seeing the good work being done by the new police staff in enhancing significantly the service that they provide. <BR /> <BR />The most recent statistics that I have, which are for October, merit repeating. Access NI returned 99·6% of basic checks within 14 days against a target of 95%. It returned 99·7% of standard checks within 14 days against a target of 95%. It returned 98·8% of enhanced checks within 28 days against a target of 90%. All those figures show the extremely good work being done by Access NI and the PSNI.”
“<BR /> <BR />The statistics that I had on the specific issue of police checks showed that, in June, 789 checks had been waiting with the police for over 60 days and that, at the end of November, that had reduced to 54. That is a reduction of over 90%, which is clearly a significant improvement that is much to be welcomed. That sits alongside the fact that Access NI now significantly exceeds all its targets on the timescale for issuing checks.”
“I thank my colleague for that question. There is no doubt that a while ago there were significant concerns about delays in Access NI check processing, especially for issues that need to be referred to the police, whether that is the PSNI or another body, for examination. I believe that the turnaround times for the checks that are dealt with purely by Access NI have been by and large quite good, although it has not been unknown for people to complain about slow processing when employers had not forwarded the paperwork anyway. The fact that we now have issues being dealt with online by individuals is making a significant improvement in that.”
“I have not spoken to the director specifically on the issue. I meet the director regularly, and these are the issues that come up in general discussion but not in the sense of me telling the director what to do. It is purely in the sense of the work that is done when, for example, the director attends meetings with other leaders across the justice system to see how we can improve our working practices. It is about that difficult balance between independence and interdependence.”
“I think that improvements are being made, but there is clearly a significant issue that, I think, is largely founded on the reforms that followed the Good Friday Agreement, which emphasised the ability to provide confidence in the justice system by showing the independence of different organisations. I believe we are now at the point where we need to emphasise much more the interdependence and working together, because that is the way that we will show real confidence. As long as we have the operational independence fully categorised, which we have, we could emphasise more the way that people need to work together to improve the experience of victims and, indeed, defendants.”
“This is one of those questions that I need to be slightly careful with. Ms McCorley has correctly identified that there is a significant issue, and it is one for the DOJ in the context of the wider efforts that we are making to speed up justice. I need to be careful about getting directly involved in the specific recommendations for the PSNI and the PPS. <BR /> <BR />What I am aware of is the fact that, as is so often the case, CJINI reports are published after a period of time when work to address some of the issues that have been highlighted is already under way.”
“I am sorry, but I really think that that is an area that I cannot go into, given that there is the potential for legal action. However, I certainly value the work that was done.”
“I accept that there are issues related to the way in which the visitor centre service was provided at the three prisons, including the very significant service that was provided for many years — four decades, I think — by Quaker Service at Maghaberry. Given that a solicitor's letter has been received on the awarding of the new contract, I do not feel I can go any further than that, but I am happy to praise the good work that they have done over the years.”
“That is just the same as, incidentally, the Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre, where the number of children and young people is also going down. Part of the wider reform programme of the justice system is to stop people coming in. However, in education and training, we are doing much better for young men when they leave.”
“Again, that is a significant part of the rehabilitation. One of the key benefits of the outsourcing of employment and learning to the colleges is that it enables courses to be run in line with what is what is being done in outside institutions. That makes it easier for somebody leaving the prison to find a place on a relevant college course at more or less the same stage. We cannot guarantee that that always works easily, but it is much better than the situation when the courses were being run entirely independently by Prison Service and did not carry through easily into the community. It is very significant. <BR /> <BR />We should also be reminded that the number of young men in Hydebank Wood has been reducing significantly. That has, to some extent, made it easier to provide better courses and better options for them.”
“If Members have not yet bought all their Christmas presents, they could try the Barn at Hydebank this weekend, where there is a variety of crafts for sale that have been made by prisoners, both male and female, in Hydebank. That is all an example of good, positive engagement, in which the outsourcing of learning of skills has been very significant.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that well over 90% of the young men are now daily engaged in some constructive activity that will generally lead to a qualification. That is a huge and significant statement. I do not know whether I have said this in the Chamber — I have certainly said it elsewhere — but one of the nicest compliments was from one of the chaplains, who said to me, "It used to be that if you wanted to see one of the boys, you went and looked for him on his landing. Now, you don't know where he is because he's out doing something useful". That is a major statement of massive change. <BR /> <BR />As someone who had a very enjoyable, albeit larger than I usually have, Christmas lunch in the Cabin Cafe last week, I saw some very good work being done.”
“I am slightly shocked by such a positive question. I also think that my colleague the Minister for Employment and Learning should be here at the moment. <BR /> <BR />Very significant progress has been made since the decision to redesignate Hydebank Wood as a college earlier this year. The outsourcing of the education responsibility to Belfast Metropolitan College, in the case of Hydebank and Maghaberry, and to the North West Regional College, in the case of Magilligan — I should not allow only Hydebank to be mentioned — has gone extremely well, considering the difficulties there sometimes are with putting different organisations together. There has been a significant contribution by the providers, and we have seen very positive results from that.”
“Amid the joking about Christmas, there is a very serious point from Mrs Overend, which I entirely accept. There have been difficulties in the past about information not being provided to victims who have asked to be informed about what is happening to those who committed offences against them or a loved one. It is a key issue that needs to be dealt with by the Prison Service adequately, and I will do my best to ensure that that is the case, not just for Christmas but for the future.”
“I am afraid that I cannot at this stage. It is an administrative issue within the Prison Service. I have been known in the past to report immediately after Christmas on the numbers who were given Christmas leave and, indeed, whether any of them returned late — sometimes, some of them returned early — but I am afraid that the figures are not available to me at this stage as to the numbers who have applied or the numbers who will be granted.”
“I thank Mr Flanagan for that supplementary question. I believe that the approach that has been taken by the Northern Ireland Prison Service is significantly better than that which was taken by the National Offender Management Service in England, where, as Members will be aware, there have been two recent suicides of transgender prisoners. I believe that the Prison Service's approach was pragmatic and reasonable, and I do not think that there is any question of somebody being put into solitary confinement for anything other than the most extreme of reasons. There is no question of that happening simply because somebody is a transgender prisoner. I believe that the supervision ratios in Ash House are adequate to ensure that the needs of every prisoner are met and to ensure that there can be no question of any kind of risk to individuals.”
“I should, first, repeat to Mr Flanagan and to the House my apology that I gave him a written answer to a question, which was accurate at the time, that there had been no transgender prisoners admitted to custody in Northern Ireland, and, before the date of that answer, one was admitted. The simple answer is that the individual self-identified and was living as female and was therefore admitted to Ash House at Hydebank Wood because that was a reasonable and pragmatic approach by the Prison Service to meet the needs of that individual. The precise details of exactly how she is being cared for in Ash House, I believe, should not be gone into.”
“I welcome the 16 Days of Action campaign and the public focus that it puts on the important issue of domestic violence and abuse. I have instructed officials to consider and introduce a number of initiatives, including domestic violence protection orders, domestic homicide reviews, special listing arrangements, the potential for a domestic violence disclosure scheme and a possible offence that captures patterns of coercive and controlling behaviour in intimate and familial relationships. <BR /> <BR />Such initiatives will require resources, and details will become more apparent during their development. I remain focused on taking forward those and current priorities associated with domestic violence and abuse. However, we need to be realistic that the current funding constraints will impact on what new work can be developed and delivered.”
“The figures that I had were of somewhat less than 1,000 cases. The most recent figures that I saw showed that there were somewhere in the region of 600 and 700 cases waiting. I accept that the past week might have seen a slight increase, but I doubt whether it is either at 1,000 or spiralling out of control. <BR /> <BR />The appropriate decisions were taken by the Department of Justice after lengthy discussions with solicitors and barristers. That approach was supported by the Assembly. There was no attempt to pray against the rules in the Assembly, and they were upheld by the High Court except in one marginal area and in one procedural area.”
“It is certainly at the point at which the Department should be taking the initiative. If you look at the record of the work that has been done by the Department, you will see that it has taken the initiative all the way through, including seeking the recent meetings. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that the High Court upheld, in all but one minor respect, the rules that were put in place by the Assembly. In that context, and on the basis of value for money and the availability of finance, that is the position as it stands. If the Court of Appeal were to overturn the decision of the High Court, that would put us in a different place, but, at this stage, I am operating on the basis of Assembly policy as validated by the High Court.”
“In that context, it is difficult to engage on the substance of the matter, although I am keen to see any of those minor anomalies being addressed as fast as possible.”
“I agree with Mr Murphy that we need the impasse to end. That is why I met the Law Society and the Bar Council last week. I have made it clear that the judgement that related to one issue of solicitor's trial preparation fees was being addressed urgently, and, as I said, it will be with the Committee this week. I am also in the process of making a specific offer to deal with a couple of areas of difficulty for barristers. <BR /> <BR />Except for one minor issue of fees for solicitors and the issue of regulatory impact assessments, the High Court decision upheld entirely the Department's proposals, which were backed by the Assembly as being entirely valid. I understand that a challenge is now being made, as there is an appeal against the judicial review decision.”
“The key issue seems to be as it relates to barristers at the present time, where there are very simple comparisons. As part of the legislative requirement, the original proposals were compared on a value-for-money basis against the fees paid for similar work in England and Wales, which is the most comparable jurisdiction. The original proposals established that the fees paid were roughly 40% higher than those in England and Wales. After various discussions and ameliorations, the proposal is to reduce the fees to barristers by 22%, which still leaves a significant margin over the fees that are paid in England and Wales.”
“We will also ensure that these changes and any future reforms are subject to a more rigorous regulatory assessment. <BR /> <BR />The actions taken by members of the legal profession are inevitably impacting on the operation of the Crown Courts, and that is regrettable. It will take some time for cases being affected by the action to progress through the courts, and many areas of the justice system will need to work together to ensure that these cases are progressed without further undue delay. <BR /> <BR />I encourage all members of the legal profession to re-engage in defending their clients to ensure that they receive the appropriate access to justice to which they are entitled. That will also ensure that victims and witnesses are not subjected to any further unnecessary delays in seeing their cases progressed.”
“Further meetings have taken place since the judgement. I also met representatives of the Bar Council and the Law Society last week, when both advised that they were considering an appeal. I have made it clear to the professional bodies that I am prepared to listen to any reasonable proposition and to consider adjustments when real issues are identified. <BR /> <BR />In the meantime, my officials are developing specific proposals to address the judicial review finding in respect of guilty plea fees for solicitors. They will be subject to consultation with the profession and will be brought before the Justice Committee in the new year. Proposals are already at an advanced stage to introduce provisions to remunerate cases that fall outside the standard fee regime, and my officials will present those to the Justice Committee this week.”
“With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 5, 8 and 13 together. <BR /> <BR />The Bar Council and the Law Society have challenged the remuneration for Crown Court cases introduced in May by way of judicial review. In addition, the Criminal Bar Association and a number of solicitors' firms have decided not to represent their clients for work that will be paid under the new fees. The High Court judgement ruled against my Department on two specific areas, namely the absence of a trial preparation fee for solicitors and the way in which my Department undertook its regulatory impact assessments. The judge did not strike down the rules, as the applicants had sought. <BR /> <BR />My officials continue to meet members of both sides of the profession to discuss a range of legal aid issues, including Crown Court fees.”
“The provision of additional resources at judicial level, including the provision of a High Court judge to take on the role of coroner in one complex inquest, the work, which I have already highlighted, being done by Judge Sherrard in another one and the examination of the whole package as one by a single judge in January will be very beneficial. However, there will be issues, and I will continue to engage on the issues of disclosure and how they are carried through in order to best meet the needs of families.”
“I thank Mr Kelly for the question. I am not sure that he and I would necessarily have an identical view on issues of national security, but there are difficult issues that need to be worked through in that area. There is no doubt that there are a number of legacy inquests where there are not concerns about national security and it should be possible to make progress. I welcome the work being done by the Lord Chief Justice and Lord Justice Weir to carry through the examination of the state of each potential inquest.”
“At the end of the day, the obligations under ECHR are obligations for the state party, even though they are carried out by devolved institutions, and it will be the UK Government who will answer in Strasbourg and in other international fora if they fail to provide the necessary resources.”
“I thank my colleague for that expansion of Mr Maginness's point. It is not easy to define where blockages currently sit. In fairness to the Secretary of State, I know that she has said that the money that was committed by the Treasury is still committed if legacy institutions are established. The challenge is that the work has to be done whether or not legacy institutions are established, and issues such as those that would be dealt with by inquests would be done without new institutions. I believe, therefore, that the commitment that was made by the Treasury on the back of the engagement with the Prime Minister a year ago shows that there was a recognition that the work had to be done.”
“Certainly, there were to be no new institutions for inquests, and the police and the ombudsman have to carry out functions, including those that, at times, are court-ordered or are ordered by the DPP, in the absence of funding. It is simply not sustainable to expect them to deal with the past on the budget for the present. There will need to be an arrangement to find that funding if we are to meet the needs of the victims of the past.”
“I thank Mr Maginness for that supplementary; he puts his finger on a significant issue. There is, at this point, no additional funding for the PSNI. There is, at this point, no additional funding for the Police Ombudsman. There is, at this point, no additional funding for legacy inquests. I have made the point strenuously to the Secretary of State, although it is not a matter solely for her, because it is an issue that also engages the Executive. Given that the Government were promising £150 million for legacy institutions, there are major questions about the responsibility that the Government have to deal with those issues in the absence of the legacy institutions.”
“In the absence of political agreement on dealing with the past, it is crucial that existing structures are adequately funded to fill the gap. Without the necessary additional resources to address outstanding Troubles-related deaths, we will fail the families of victims and fail to meet our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights. We will be potentially throwing away the best opportunity for a generation to resolve issues of dealing with our troubled past.”
“A key ingredient of the Stormont House Agreement's approach to dealing with the past was the £150 million promised over a five-year period to fund new legacy structures and arrangements. I met the Secretary of State last Monday on legacy matters. At the meeting, I raised a number of issues of concern, including the UK Government's obligations under the ECHR; the implications of non-agreement for victims; the financial implications of managing legacy issues without the new institutions; and funding for existing legacy institutions. The failure to agree to the establishment of the HIU means that significant burdens fall to my Department. Those legacy issues are much wider than the remit of my Department, and responsibility for dealing with them lies with the Executive and the Government. There is no "do nothing" solution.”
“There are immediate implications, as well as potential long-term implications, for the justice system and the families of victims of Troubles-related deaths. Without the establishment of the Historical Investigations Unit (HIU), the responsibility for carrying out legacy investigations remains with the existing bodies involved in this important work.”
“With permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take questions 4, 7, 9 and 15 together. <BR /> <BR />I am extremely disappointed that legacy issues were excluded from the recent political agreement. Whilst there is progress in certain areas, the failure to address or make a commitment to the legacy institutions set out in the Stormont House Agreement leaves a major hole in how we address the issues of our past.”
“I engage with the Prison Officers' Association when requested. Senior members of prison management engage with it, as appropriate, at unit and headquarters level. To the best of my knowledge, I have not received a request for engagement from the POA for a considerable time. I certainly responded to the last request I received. Managing staff, dealing with staff morale and looking at pay and allowances are issues for management and do not require ministerial engagement all the time. However, I am happy to engage if requested.”
“Ms McCorley is right to say that staffing ratios are higher among the separated prisoners in Roe and Bush than in other parts of the prison. It is an issue of managing the risk and ensuring appropriate supervision levels depending on the category of prisoners in different parts of the prison estate. <BR /> <BR />I certainly am not going to agree with her that there are excessive numbers there, but it is an ongoing issue to ensure that numbers are right and ratios managed well. That ties in with the implementation of the August 2010 agreement and ensuring that the threats to prison officers, made inside Roe House and on social media, are removed in order that we can manage the prison better for the good of all.”
“The management of sickness absence is a matter for line management in every part of my Department. Members will be aware of very high sickness levels in Maghaberry. Phil Wragg, the current governor, has taken a very close interest in that issue. He and unit managers have been robustly examining the issues, with the result, as I reported recently to the Assembly, that the number of staff sick on any day recently has been under half of those who were running sick in spring this year. That has a major impact, to the benefit of the regime, in ensuring that prisoners are better looked after and have their needs met for things like phone calls at times when their families are expecting them. It is contributing to significant improvement in the atmosphere in the prison.”
“Those new officers now have two to three years of prison experience and are valued staff working in all three establishments. The Prison Service launched a further recruitment campaign for custody prison officers and night custody officers on 26 October, and over 1,700 applications were received.”
“There have been ongoing staffing pressures brought about by departures from the Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) and high sickness levels. The service has kept staffing levels under review and worked to maximise existing resources through the use of staff redeployment and continued robust management of, and support for, absentees. A re-profiling exercise looking comprehensively at operational staffing levels across the service has been completed, and representatives of the Prison Officers' Association (POA) were consulted prior to the introduction of those new profiles. The profiles were agreed and introduced on a phased basis in all three establishments in October and early November. <BR /> <BR />Over the last four years, many staff have left the service, but NIPS has also recruited officers.”
“Mr Allister is aware that I am as critical as many Members of the House of the so-called 'A Fresh Start' document. It is a matter of fact that I have reported on. He correctly highlights the amount of additional security funding being provided in this year and the amount that is being provided for the coming five years. My understanding is that, when the PSNI made its request to the Government, it came to a total of £161 million over five years, and £160 million is being provided. Of course, there are significant issues that are yet to be resolved in the Budget process. I do not believe that my Department has yet received information from DFP as to what the police can expect for security matters and for other matters, as well for other aspects of the justice system.”
“I certainly accept that that is a reasonable question in the current context. The only issue is that that money is allocated directly to the PSNI to deal with major security issues. Whilst concerns have been expressed, including during yesterday's debate, about rural crime, I doubt whether any of the rural crime issues come within that security area. However, it is for the Chief Constable to decide the allocation of that resource.”
“I am used to inventive supplementary questions but I am not quite sure what the relevance of that supplementary is to the question that was asked in the first place. However, I have to respond to the last point that Mrs Dobson made. There is not an issue with prison officers regaining control of Maghaberry prison. It is controlled by the governor and the staff, and not by anybody else.”
“That will be fully utilised by 31 March 2016.”
“The £160 million additional funding provided by the Treasury for the next five years is to support the PSNI in addressing the continuing "severe" national security threat as well as to provide greater capability to tackle continued paramilitary activity and criminality. That amount is based on an assessment by the PSNI of its requirements over the next five years; that is, from 2016-17 to 2020-2021. During the four-year Budget period 2011-15, additional security funding of £199·5 million was made available to the PSNI by the UK Government. That was fully used by the PSNI, except for £5 million in 2012-13, when easements of that amount in other areas were redirected to security funding. In the current year, a total of £31 million of additional security funding has been made available to the PSNI by the UK Government.”
“At the moment, those posts are being funded from within the DOJ budget, though they are clearly related to legacy issues. Members will recall that, a year ago, there was a promise from the Prime Minister of funding to deal with legacy matters. At this stage, we have not seen the additional funding that we need. Therefore, it is a risk to the Department of Justice. Nonetheless, I am determined to see that we will make progress in the inquest system and, therefore, funding from the Department's current limited budget is being put into dealing with the past.”
“I am determined that we will put the resources in, if resources can be made available. At this stage, however, I do not have all the funding that is required to do all that I wish.”
“Like Mr Ó hOisín, Mr McGlone has put a number of questions in one point. I suspect that a number of Members will be aware that the Lord Chief Justice, having assumed the presidency of the Coroners' Courts, in line with an Assembly decision when the Bill became an Act late last year, has instructed one of the senior judges to review all 56 outstanding cases. That is likely to lead to a hearing on each of them by Lord Justice Weir in January. That will then establish the position for all those cases with regard to which ones are in a position to move forward speedily and which may take longer or create difficulties. There are difficulties around disclosure matters, as Members will know, and those are causing delays in a number of cases. I hope that it will be possible to see a number progress.”