David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“It is not even just a matter for the Justice and Finance Departments, but will require the Executive, as a whole, to prepare a capital programme.”
“We should not suggest that preparing the outline business case was not a great deal of preparatory work. That business case has involved all aspects of the running of the prison, including looking at future arrangements for training, job skills, healthcare and staffing. It is not simply a matter of looking at buildings as being major in the business case but at what the needs will be into the future. I believe that that is a firm statement of commitment, which follows through on the commitment I gave the Assembly when I reported back on that particular aspect of the prison reform programme. The fundamental issue is not whether the DOJ is committed to the developments needed at Magilligan and the other prisons, but whether the capital is available. That requires a joined-up Executive decision.”
“I am happy to say that the outline business case is a sound case that was done a year ago, and there is no likelihood of it needing to be renewed in the near future. The question is much more this: at what point will the Executive agree the finances for Northern Ireland for the future so that we know what the opportunities are for capital spending on not just Magilligan prison but on the much needed women's facility and the upgrading of accommodation at Maghaberry?”
“An outline business case for the redevelopment of Magilligan prison was approved by DFP on 9 January 2015. I met the then Minister of Finance and Personnel on 28 April to discuss capital funding for the delivery of the Prison Service estate strategy. It is difficult to make commitments to deliver an eight-year construction programme without the assurance of funding across a number of spending review periods. Securing the necessary capital will determine the timeline for the development of the new prison at Magilligan. <BR /> <BR />My officials will complete the necessary bid to secure capital funding for the project when it is launched by DFP.”
“I have no doubt that some Members will look across the border at a female Justice Minister, a female Attorney General, a female Lord Chief Justice and a female Garda Commissioner, but I am not responsible for the appointment of any of them or of their equivalents in Northern Ireland.”
“If Mrs McKevitt is talking about the judiciary specifically, I need to be very careful in saying what can be done, because that is a responsibility that sits firmly with the Judicial Appointments Commission. If she were to discuss the wider issues of encouraging females to take up appointments across the higher reaches of the justice system, I could only say what I quoted. I believe that those areas where I have a degree of responsibility have shown some positive movements, particularly this year, but it is a matter of encouraging women to play their full part in public life across a range of areas. Frankly, the justice system is not much different from others.”
“Yes, I can certainly assure Ms Fearon that I am aware of that research, which was carried out with specific reference to the judiciary. However, as far as appointments are concerned, I need to leave those with the Judicial Appointments Commission, under the chairmanship of the Lord Chief Justice — one person on whose turf I do not like to tread.”
“The appointment of most of the key personnel in the justice system is outwith my Department. However, many leading roles in the criminal justice system are held by women. On 31 March, female representation on public bodies in the criminal justice system was sitting at 39%. The chair and the director of the Probation Board are women, and the chair of the Policing Board is held by a woman, one of the six whom I appointed to the board earlier this year alongside only three men. In my top team, two of the five roles, including the director general of the Prison Service, are held by women.”
“A year or so ago, there was a slight upswing in my constituency in that kind of theft. I have been assured that the treatment of rural crime such as that is a priority in the border areas of Armagh and Tyrone that were highlighted earlier. However, there is also an issue of individual citizens doing what they can to protect their stock and of people being the eyes and ears of the community, contacting police if they have concerns and joining the likes of Farmwatch to help to keep tabs on what is happening. It is not an area in which we can simply depend on the two police services; it requires a joined-up community effort.”
“I certainly agree with Mr Byrne that this is an issue of significant concern to the families who suffer. Thefts of machinery and plant, particularly tractors, can also cause difficulties.”
“But there are real issues, given the resources that are available, and other initiatives, including some run by PCSPs and so on to assist people with things like Farmwatch. It is not simply a matter of waiting for the formal agencies; there is also the issue of what can be done in partnership to fight those who engage in this crime.”
“The Minister always supports the operational decisions of the NCA that best address its responsibilities, because he does not direct the NCA any more than he directs the PSNI what to do. However, a perfectly valid point has just been made: there is no doubt that the prevalence of cattle thefts is greatest in border areas of Northern Ireland and in border areas of the Republic. There is clearly an issue to be addressed there. <BR /> <BR />I certainly believe that, as part of the ongoing work to address crime on a cross-border basis, good work is being done in a number of areas. I will happily draw the issue of cattle rustling to the attention of the police and the Garda Síochána when I next speak to them and, indeed, when I speak this week to the Irish Justice Minister at the organised crime cross-border seminar.”
“<BR /> <BR />Given the budget cuts that were being made and, frankly, the political will of some people to see the ending of those contracts, the reality is that it was not possible to retain that post. I do not see, in the financial difficulties, how it would be possible to reinstate it. The important issue is to see that the work is being done otherwise.”
“I accept that the data analyst performed an important role. The reality is that that work has been embedded within the PSNI statistics unit in a way that was not previously the case. When I became Minister a mere five and a half years ago, the definitions of "urban" and "rural" in PSNI terms appeared to depend whether one was in the Belfast subregion or beyond it. As a result, large rural areas in places like Antrim, Lisburn and Ards were classified as urban, and major urban settlements in the rest of it — all but the city of Derry — were classified as rural. We have a much better analysis now. That is being embedded through the individual districts.”
“While there is no longer a dedicated rural crime data analyst, I understand that the PSNI's statistics branch continues to produce detailed quarterly updates on agricultural and rural crime in Northern Ireland. This allows key stakeholders to continue to monitor trends in crime committed in rural settlements and agricultural crime and to allocate resources accordingly.”
“The PSNI's rural crime unit was a central resource for identifying trends and patterns in rural crime. Information from the unit was used by police commanders to enhance the effectiveness of their operational tactics in preventing and detecting rural and agricultural crime. The work of the unit was supported by a dedicated data analyst, who was part-funded by my Department. Information provided by the analyst informed the work of the Rural Crime Partnership, a collaborative arrangement between my Department, the PSNI, NFU Mutual and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. I understand that, as part of the PSNI's termination of contracts for associate workers, the contract for this post was not renewed beyond 31 December 2014.”
“I am afraid that it is a bit difficult to say what I will do when the consultation responses are being analysed and proposals developed. However, It is clear that even some of the proposals for reducing the effective unspent convictions did not attract universal support in that consultation process, and it will be necessary to look in detail at how that will be handled. <BR /> <BR />I expect that, when we produce firm proposals for the new scheme, there is likely to be a lot of interest in the Chamber. Some Members may consider tabling a debate at that point, if they believe that issues need to be teased out. There is a difficult balance to be struck, in particular on historical convictions. That is not easily resolved in the current political difficulties.”
“The extent to which unspent criminal convictions should be taken into account when considering a claim for criminal injuries compensation is being addressed as part of the overall review of the compensation scheme. A public consultation exercise was undertaken earlier this year, and responses are being considered with the intention of bringing forward a post-consultation report and proposals for a new scheme by the end of the year.”
“I am afraid that I have no answer to give to Mr Allister. I am not responsible for the appointment of coroners, and I am therefore not sure why that particular timescale is happening. What I know is that the process is under way, and I trust that the post will be filled permanently as soon as possible.”
“I am not sure that I can give an assurance of there being no gaps. The process under section 6(2) to appoint temporary coroners, in particular, is relatively straightforward. It is under way, and my understanding is that there is the potential for people to be in post within a very short time. The job of the Judicial Appointments Commission in making the permanent appointment will take slightly longer. The fact that a County Court judge and a High Court judge have been assigned strengthens the Coroners Service considerably.”
“<BR /> <BR />Arrangements are also being progressed to recruit two investigating officers for the Coroners Service and to strengthen the panel of counsel available to support coroners in the discharge of their functions. However, as I have said before, progress in dealing with the past, including the legacy inquest process, can be made only in the context of the full implementation of the Stormont House Agreement and the associated funding for which it provides.”
“Northern Ireland has three full-time coroners, one of whom, John Leckey, is due to retire on 31 October. A competition to appoint a successor to Mr Leckey was launched on 10 September. <BR />The Lord Chief Justice has assigned a County Court judge to the Coroners Service to provide additional capacity, and a High Court judge has been assigned to deal with the new inquest that is to be held into the death of Pearse Jordan. I have also asked the Lord Chief Justice to exercise his statutory powers under section 6(2) of the Coroners Act (Northern Ireland) 1959 to appoint temporary additional coroners to cover vacancies caused by the absence of a coroner due to illness. In addition, the Courts and Tribunals Service has appointed a senior business manager to support the coroners.”
“<BR /> <BR />We know that, sadly, the children of those in custody are more likely to end up in custody themselves. That is why there is good work being done in Maghaberry prison on the families matter landing to encourage those in custody to have a relationship with their children, to bring children in for an extended visit and to have the opportunity to act like fathers even though they are in jail. I think that is the kind of good example that we can show and that is entirely in line with the development of a wider desistance strategy. However, it does, of course, mean intensive work and resources, and we all know the circumstances we are in regarding finances.”
“I thank Mr McCrea for returning the questions to a slightly more balanced approach. I have no doubt that, if he speaks to others and wishes to promote an Assembly debate, we might have an interesting discussion if it went to slightly more than a ministerial statement. <BR /> <BR />When he talks about the dangers of those involved with the criminal justice system at an early age, let me say that we have a good record, as I said a few minutes ago, in the work done by the Youth Justice Agency in preventing reoffending. That is largely built around restorative practice and the work that is done in youth conferencing. That is a key example of how we have been able to change factors to make Northern Ireland an exemplar of good practice in these islands.”
“— and the way we reduce future victims is by stopping people from committing crime. The most effective way of stopping people from committing crime is by dealing with the issues that lead them into criminal activity, like poor relationships, substance misuse, alcoholism, poor housing, lack of work — a whole range of factors that have been shown by those who, rather than making pontificating statements on it, have studied the issue and found those to be the real issues by which we address it. <BR /> <BR />Of course, there are concerns about the specific matter that Mrs Overend presented a few minutes ago, and there are real issues of concern about what happened in this society in the past. As Minister of Justice, I cannot cure the past, but I can do my best to stop victims in the future.”
“Thankfully, I was never a barrister anyway. I am quite happy to say that my professional background is as a social worker, and I am not the only one in the Chamber who can say that. I notice another Minister nodding sagely from the Front Bench. <BR /> <BR />If Mr Allister thinks that this statement does not mention victims, I suggest he looks at an electronic version and runs a word search on it, because it talks about reducing —”
“I will do my best to ensure that that continues to be the case in this area.”
“I am not in a position to say exactly how that will be done at this stage but I have no doubt that my officials will present me with advice as to how we should ensure that we not only do best practice but are seen to be doing best practice. I am delighted when, at times, Ministers have been known to come from Whitehall to see good work being done in Northern Ireland, particularly in areas such as youth justice, which shows that we can teach others a lesson even if we are a small jurisdiction.”
“I thank the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Justice for his support and, through him, I thank the Committee for the work it has done with my officials on this area. He rightly highlights the importance of the action plan rather than just the strategy. I am not quite sure how many different shades of plan we need to work through as we look at an implementation plan. One of the key things that we have is the research that was done specifically for this work by Professor Maruna and other academic research. <BR /> <BR />The test will be to ensure that we get appropriate validation of the work being done.”
“If I may digress slightly, Mr Speaker, it is extremely regrettable that some issues of joint working, which I would have hoped to be doing, for example on the joint strategy on domestic and sexual violence, cannot currently be carried through because of the absence of a Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. I am committed to ensuring that the justice elements of that strategy are carried through as best we can, but it would be far better if we could see a joint strategy being carried through by two Departments with Ministers working in them.”
“I congratulate my colleague on his alliteration. I would dispute that the DOJ is soft on offending but I certainly hope that some of the work that we have been doing, in the very significant reforms carried through in the five and half years since devolution, shows that the justice system as a whole is being smart. Whether that applies to the Minister personally, it can be said to be the case for the system. <BR /> <BR />Mr Dickson rightly highlights the issue of the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, but, when we also look at issues such as housing and related matters, there is a very significant role for the Department for Social Development.”
“There is also the issue of the families of victims who may well wish to have a say as we look at some of the other aspects of restorative practice. These are methods that bring home to offenders the effect that what they have done may have had on people, and the work that needs to be done to assist the offenders is sometimes easier if they have been fully aware of what they have done. The families of victims and perpetrators may well have a very significant role.”
“I thank Mr Somerville for his welcome. The answer to that is, to some extent, the same as the one I have just given to Mr McGlone about the issue of victims' groups in general. There is joined-up working to be done between a range of Departments and agencies, and there is work to be done involving some of our voluntary sector partners, many of which will be in contact with the families of victims or even the families of offenders. <BR /> <BR />The important thing is that we see that the work is done in the most effective way. Often, families can be the people who particularly aid the rehabilitation work if they are providing a stable background for somebody who has offended — if they have been in custody — to return to.”
“<BR /> <BR />I think that there is a general recognition, when one looks at the academic study, that the best way of supporting victims and not creating future victims is ensuring that we work better and more intensively with offenders so that we can see that change happen. I am sure that the work that my Department will do as we work through the action plan for Supporting Change will ensure that we see a deepening of contact with a range of victims' groups.”
“I thank Mr McGlone for that point. Clearly, there is a variety of views amongst victims' groups on some of these issues. Victim Support has worked very closely with the Department on a range of initiatives. For example, some Members may have heard the references in the media to the introduction this week of the enhanced combination order. Victim Support has been very much involved in looking at that aspect of work in the Probation Board's more intensive management of offenders in the community. So whilst it is probably the case that not all victims' groups accept the premise of the way in which we are working, we certainly have had good relationships with a number of them in establishing this policy.”
“We have not specifically looked at the recreation of those partnerships, as I believe, to a considerable extent, that our existing policing and community safety partnerships have the capacity to do that. The important issue is that we see joined-up working around the Executive. Whatever difficulties there may be around the Executive working as a whole, I believe that my Department has done some very good partnership working with one or two individual Departments. Perhaps it is easier to get on with one or two other Ministers at a time than the entire tableful. On that basis, I think that we have seen progress being made, but it is certainly an issue that we need to look at to see how we can maximise the response and get all the Departments working together in the way that we need to see.”
“Each individual who is successfully supported in desisting from offending contributes towards reducing the overall level of reoffending in Northern Ireland, which ultimately builds a safer community for us all. Thank you.”
“We all have key roles to play in addressing barriers to desistance. For example, homelessness, mental ill health and difficulties in obtaining employment are areas on which we must work together to help to reintegrate people into our society and to build safer communities. Those areas do not fall within the responsibilities of my Department, and it is imperative that Government recognise that we are working to provide services and support for the same people at different, often pivotal, stages of their lives. <BR /> <BR />The strategy that I am publishing today reinforces my Department's commitment to working with those who have offended in a flexible, person-centred manner, which, research shows, has the best chance of supporting individuals to live their lives free from further offending.”
“The current environment provides us with the incentive to think more creatively, to enhance partnership working and to reduce any potential duplication at the various stages of a person's journey through our justice system. Any action that we can take to support someone to desist from offending reduces the future cost to society and, significantly, prevents the creation of future victims. To that end, there is a strong commitment from the Prison Service, the Probation Board, the Police Service, the Youth Justice Agency and partners in the voluntary and community sector to enhance how we protect the public and reintegrate people who have offended into our society. <BR /> <BR />The desistance action plan provides a sound platform for greater partnership working, not just in the justice system but across many other Departments.”
“While we must all accept that the current fiscal environment is challenging, it must not be allowed to restrict our thinking in improving how we work with people who have offended and support their rehabilitative journey.”
“Thirdly, delivering targeted, joined-up support and interventions, and, finally, engaging and communicating with our stakeholders. <BR /> <BR />Taking a desistance-based approach is very much about working with the individual to reduce their likelihood of reoffending and to prevent any future risk to the public. The desistance action plan is a solid base from which we can work to address the root causes of offending behaviour, challenge individuals to change that behaviour and support them to live their lives free from further offending.”
“<BR /> <BR />Having understood the factors that influence those who have previously offended to become productive members of society, it is incumbent on us to ensure that our system plays an active part in helping individuals to change. <BR />The first step is to turn the theory of Supporting Change into concrete actions, so an action plan is being published along with the strategy. The initial action plan seeks to use to deliver a desistance-based approach that puts the individual at the heart of the rehabilitative process and promotes a coherent, joined-up approach across our justice system. The action plan seeks to address four key areas. First, improving our evidence base and response to offending behaviour. Secondly, developing the capacity of our staff and organisations to support desistance.”
“Having something to give others, having a place in a social group, not being viewed as a criminal and being believed in are also important factors in a person's desistance journey. <BR /> <BR />Each of us can relate to the importance of these factors in our own daily lives: having a feeling of self-worth, a purpose or a loving relationship. Perhaps our lives have been fortunate in that many of these factors have come naturally to us or with little effort. For many of those who have been in contact with the criminal justice system, their life paths have meant that their experiences are very different and they need help and support if they are to make a lasting change in their lives. That is the purpose of Supporting Change.”
“<BR /> <BR />My Department also hosted an engagement event with stakeholders that demonstrated support for desistance principles and a strong commitment to work in partnership. During the consultation on the strategic framework for reducing offending, which was published in May 2013, stakeholders rightly asked what the Department meant by desistance and what factors could contribute to the process. As research shows, factors that are associated with desistance include things like getting older and maturing, having families and forming relationships, maintaining sobriety and obtaining employment. Desistance theory also recognises the vital role that hope and motivation can play in encouraging a person to move away from offending behaviour.”
“<BR /> <BR />Today's launch of Supporting Change continues that work, setting out an agreed understanding of desistance across statutory and non-statutory organisations and restating my Department's commitment to provide a flexible, person-centred approach, which reduces reoffending and improves outcomes for those who are in contact with the criminal justice system. <BR /> <BR />The development of the desistance strategy benefited from engagement across the justice system and with our partners in the voluntary and community sector. Our work on desistance has also been informed by a resettlement study conducted on our behalf by Professor Shadd Maruna at Queen's University and by an examination of some of the factors that influence the decision to recall a person to custody.”
“<BR /> <BR />My Department's work on desistance links directly to a recommendation from the prison reform team and a commitment in the Programme for Government, building on the foundation laid by the strategic framework for reducing offending. The strategic framework sets out how the Executive can build a safer Northern Ireland through a long-term reduction in offending behaviour by preventing people from becoming involved in offending behaviour and reducing reoffending among those who do.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the launch of Supporting Change, a strategic approach to desistance. This strategy will support my Department's objective to build safer communities and reduce reoffending, and emphasises the need for a flexible, person-centred approach, which supports individuals to live their lives free from further offending. <BR /> <BR />Desistance theory is an area of criminological research that is primarily interested in the reasons why a person decides to stop offending. Work on desistance recognises the capacity of individuals to change their behaviour. It also provides insight into some of the factors that can support that change.”
“I do not need to repeat the points that I made at the beginning or the points made by other Members around the Chamber. Sometimes I think that the time that we spend in the Chamber on issues is inversely proportional to their importance. On that basis, given the importance of this Bill, I commend it to the House, and I will sit down.”
“You got the pun. <BR /> <BR />It might be reasonable to say that having greater discretion in ensuring that amendments are slightly more consistent with what has already been raised in the Chamber would not displease the Department, although that is at your discretion entirely, Mr Speaker, and I will accept your decisions whatever they be on this Bill, as with any other. <BR /> <BR />Certainly, there is a fundamental question as to how we handle Bills. If the Committee is up to handling lots of small Bills rather than a small number of large Bills in the future, that is no problem to the Department, and, as part of our ongoing positive engagement, we might do that. <BR /> <BR />I note that we have not yet been here for an hour and a half discussing what is actually very significant legislation.”
“I was slightly amused when the Chair said that those unhelpful amendments came from all parties, including his own. I think that the word, rather than "including", should have been "particularly". With due deference to the Chair, I remind you, Mr Speaker, that amendments are allowed at your discretion and that, with the exception of the issues that I highlighted as likely to come up from previous work, the Chair and the Deputy Chair seem to be encouraging you not to allow additional amendments to come forward. One might make an exception for Mr McCrea, who at least flagged it up at considerable length this morning.”