David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“The publication of the final strategy will be subject to clearance by the Health Minister and the Executive. In the meantime, I have instructed officials to take forward the implementation of justice priorities within that strategy.”
“In addition, integrated domestic abuse programmes, which encourage convicted perpetrators of domestic violence to take responsibility for their behaviour, have been developed and delivered. <BR /> <BR />I made provision in the Justice Act 2015 for domestic violence protection notices and orders, which protect victims of domestic violence who may be at risk of immediate harm and danger. <BR /> <BR />Looking to the future, my Department aims to build on these successes. On 24 September, an official briefed the Committee for Justice on the stopping domestic and sexual violence and abuse strategy. Consideration continues to be given as to how the aims of this strategy may be progressed by my Department and DHSSPS in the current difficult financial environment.”
“Significant achievements have been made under the tackling violence at home strategy since it was introduced in 2005. These have included the introduction of multi-agency risk assessment conferencing; a 24-hour domestic-violence Freephone helpline, which expanded last year to include sexual violence; a number of domestic-violence media campaigns; and the introduction of routine enquiry in maternity units to encourage disclosure of domestic violence. <BR /> <BR />Within my Department, I have increased access to legal aid for victims to apply for non-molestation orders and piloted a new court listing arrangement in Derry, which seeks to improve the victim experience at court.”
“It is an issue that I believe might perhaps have been better addressed if there had been something like the historical institutional abuse inquiry to deal with legacy inquests, but we are where we are on the basis that there was no political agreement. In the meantime, the Courts and Tribunals Service and the judiciary will, I am sure, continue to carry out their obligations without any favour in either direction.”
“While I appreciate the point that Mr Kennedy is trying to make, I am not sure whether I actually have any powers to deal with the issues to which he refers. There is no doubt that the issue of the reopening of inquests is something which falls entirely to the Attorney General. Members may have seen the recent legal challenge around that point. I understand that something like 32 of those cases which have been re-referred by the Attorney General involve military witnesses, so there may well be a perception in some quarters. The reality is that the Attorney General reorders inquests on the basis of his best responsibilities as law officer. On that basis, the Courts and Tribunals Service makes the practical arrangements, working with coroners, to deliver those inquests.”
“I am, however, taking all reasonable measures within my power, and working with other bodies and the judiciary, to improve the system so that it better delivers for bereaved families.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am working to ensure that inquests can proceed in as timely a way as possible. Yesterday, I signed a commencement order that will make the Lord Chief Justice president of the Coroners' Courts with effect from 1 November. That will provide significant judicial leadership in addressing the problems and support a judicially led assessment of the state of readiness of the legacy inquest caseload. <BR /> <BR />To complement that work, I am inviting Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI) to undertake a review of the PSNI disclosure arrangements in support of the inquest and in discharge of its statutory duty. <BR /> <BR />I previously informed the House of other measures to improve the operation of inquests. There is no single answer to the challenge of legacy inquests.”
“Section 8 of the Coroners Act 1959 places a duty on the PSNI to support the coroner's investigation into a death by providing him with all relevant information that it holds concerning that death. I fully recognise the importance of that disclosure in ensuring an effective investigation into a death, compliant with article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). The process can be challenging, given the volume of material that may be relevant and the need for any redactions to protect individuals' rights under article 2 or article 8, or to protect national security. <BR /> <BR />The current draft Stormont House Agreement Bill includes proposals to regulate the onward disclosure of information by the historical investigations unit. The proposals remain subject to political discussion.”
“I thank Mrs Overend for the support that she and her colleagues gave to my efforts to get the NCA operational. Time will tell whether the lengthy debates on the fine-tuning of the details of police accountability mechanisms achieved significant changes beyond what was achieved from the early contact that I had with the Home Office. The important thing is that the NCA is now fully operational and is able to carry out its operations in the devolved sphere and work in the kind of partnerships that I just outlined to Mr Rogers.”
“It is not simply a matter of the NCA cooperating with the PSNI; it is also about good work with other bodies, particularly an Garda Síochána, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and HMRC, to ensure a joined-up approach against all of those crimes.”
“Mr Rogers make a valid point about today's report, but I am not sure whether the PSNI and the NCA cooperating on issues like this required that report. Of course, the NCA has other powers that were not available before 20 May, such as asset seizures, and I have no doubt that there will be movement in an area in which progress had slowed because of the inability of the NCA to operate for 18 months. Clearly, there are a number of issues. It also relates to a number of cross-border or near-border crimes, in particular. Fuel laundering has a habit of being concentrated around the border, and there is no doubt that the smuggling of tobacco and fuel is a significant issue.”
“Significant elements of that include a joint PSNI and NCA investigation into the online access to and sharing of indecent images of children, which resulted in a number of searches and arrests. There have also been complex investigations originating outside Northern Ireland, which have spread to Northern Ireland, involving crimes such as drug offences. Those investigations have benefited from the NCA's broader reach across jurisdictions, as well as its ability to exercise constabulary powers within Northern Ireland.”
“Members will know that, as chair of the Organised Crime Task Force and as Justice Minister, I welcomed the passage of the legislation to give the National Crime Agency (NCA) a role here, which fits within our policing structures, in the devolved sphere from 20 May. I know — I discussed this with the director general on 1 October — that the NCA is making a significant contribution. That is reflected in the breadth and nature of its new activity and the enhanced support that it has been able to provide to law enforcement partners, especially the PSNI.”
“As I said in my preliminary answer, the key issue is the Executive's new strategic direction on alcohol and drugs, whereby my Department plays a secondary role to the Department of Health — these issues predominantly relate to health — although, clearly, significant issues of criminal activity related to drug use also need to be addressed. There has been an increase in the number of drug seizures and prosecutions in recent years. It is not entirely clear whether that is an indication of increased criminal activity or whether better police activity is leading to more prosecutions. It is certainly a major priority for the PSNI and for a number of policing and community safety partnerships as well as the wider issues relating to Health and other Departments.”
“Although the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety leads on delivery, my Department is a key contributor to that work. That contribution includes the work of the Probation Board and the Youth Justice Agency to assess the treatment needs of offenders and to refer them to the appropriate support services. The Prison Service, working with health partners, also provides a continuum of treatment and support for those returning to the community. <BR /> <BR />While working in an environment of financial constraints, my Department remains committed to working with others to tackle the misuse of these substances across Northern Ireland.”
“The specific financial impact of alcohol and drugs to my Department has not been formally assessed. However, I have no doubt that substance misuse has an impact on expenditure in my Department, the Executive and the wider public sector. <BR /> <BR />Research on the impact of alcohol alone identified the cost to Northern Ireland to be around £900 million a year, with an annual cost to the Fire Service and the Police Service of up to £280 million and a cost of up to £104 million to the courts and prisons. Clearly, if costs associated with drug misuse were included, those figures would be significantly higher. <BR /> <BR />Responding to the overall impacts of substance misuse is a key focus of the Executive’s new strategic direction on alcohol and drugs.”
“Before people make detailed comments on the issues in today's report, I think that we need to look at the detail of the report and how it reflects on the activities and structures of a range of organisations. It is clear from the report that the leadership of all the organisations named, apart from the dissidents, is clearly on a path to a different future. I believe that that puts us into a different place, but, sadly, there does not seem to have been a great deal of progress since the last report from the Independent Monitoring Commission in 2011. The important issue is that we see leadership from political parties, complete the journey away from paramilitarism and violence and ensure that we provide an entirely normal and peaceful democratic society for our people in as short a time as is possible and realistic.”
“I am happy to agree with the point that Mr Nesbitt made — although I made that point before we got today's report — on the clear basis that I am keen to see the HIU operating as a policing body in line with the structures that we have for policing in Northern Ireland. On that basis, the appropriate body to make the appointment would be the Policing Board; not the DOJ, not OFMDFM, and not OFMDFM in consultation with the DOJ. I am quite happy to endorse Mr Nesbitt's points, although I think that I preceded him.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have stated previously that the Stormont House Agreement Bill, and the HIU in particular, represents a unique opportunity to address some of the difficult issues of our past. I once again urge the parties to work creatively to reach political agreement. We simply cannot afford to miss the chance finally to build structures that are capable of dealing with our troubled past.”
“My Department is responsible for progressing the establishment of the independent historical investigations unit, which will investigate outstanding Troubles-related deaths and take on the legacy work of the Historical Enquiries Team and the Police Ombudsman. My officials continue to work with colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office to finalise the legislation that will, among other things, establish the HIU. <BR /> <BR />The legislation to deliver those elements, in the form of the Northern Ireland (Stormont House Agreement) Bill, is, of course, subject to the ongoing political talks. My officials have also commenced work on preparing for the implementation of the HIU, and, subject to political talks, that work will progress whilst the legislation is being debated in Parliament.”
“I am happy to confirm that point. As I hinted in my response to Mr Maginness; unfortunately, there was a suggestion in one particular newspaper, which should not be dignified by being named here, that the proposals for the HIU would amount to an amnesty. A few days later, it announced that, as a result of its campaign, there would not be an amnesty. <BR /> <BR />Anybody who reads the words of the Stormont House Agreement will be absolutely clear that the provisions for limited immunity relate to only the information provided by an individual. If prosecutions are possible against that individual because of other information, those prosecutions will be taken. It is not an amnesty; it is a proper article 2 compliant investigation, and I want to see it in place as soon as possible.”
“People need to look at the reality of what was agreed at Stormont House, and the politicians who are involved in the ongoing discussions need to ensure that we deliver and deliver speedily for the benefit of those bereaved families.”
“I am happy to agree with Mr Maginness's point. There is no doubt that there are those who continue to suffer, not least because of the fact that they have not received answers to matters relating to the death of their loved ones. I believe that the HIU has a very significant role that it can fulfill. It emphasises the importance, particularly on a day like today, of ensuring that we address those issues, meet the needs of those families who are suffering and get away from some of the misrepresentation about the HIU and what its effect would be and the kind of talk that has appeared in some of the media about amnesties.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whatever Mr Allister may wish to denigrate the attempts that some of us are making to ensure that victims receive justice or, if they cannot receive justice, receive the truth, I will continue to do that regardless of his attempts to denigrate it.”
“I am not sure that I should take any lessons about being too smart by half from Mr Allister, who seems to manage that quite frequently. I said exactly what I believe to be the truth, and I repeat that that was a truthful account of the circumstances. We were talking about the specifics of the possibility of somebody who, in the context of that particular case, lived close to the widow of the person who had been murdered, and who received home leave because of a quirk in the arrangements for those who receive life sentences being entitled to early release, even though they may also benefit from the Sentences Act, but it cannot be certain at any point that they will receive the benefit. It is a very limited number and is nothing to do with the principle of the HIU.”
“The comment was not made in relation to the likely number of convictions or the potential for prosecutions resulting from any investigations by the proposed HIU, as has been erroneously reported. A letter was published by the 'News Letter' correcting this serious misrepresentation of my comments on 10 October. <BR /> <BR />I have said previously and I emphasise again today that the HIU presents a unique opportunity for us to ensure that victims and relatives receive an independent, article 2-compliant investigation into the death of their loved one. I again urge my political colleagues to work together to resolve the current political challenges and ensure that the Stormont House Agreement is implemented in full in order that victims can receive the truth and justice that they deserve.”
“I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify the comments that were recently attributed to me in the Belfast 'News Letter'. I should start by setting the context for the meeting at which the alleged comment was made. It was arranged to discuss a specific life sentence prisoner who could benefit from early release arrangements as a result of the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998. It was not a discussion on the workings of the historical investigations unit (HIU). <BR /> <BR />In response to a question about the potential for changing the legislation in the area of home leave for early releases, I advised that that would require a change to Westminster legislation and that the issue in the future may affect only a very small number of prisoners.”
“I am sorry, Deputy Speaker, but, as Minister, I simply cannot respond to points that are operational issues for the Chief Constable. Members may have a certain frustration about that, but that is the reality of the policing structures that exist in Northern Ireland. Indeed, if we look back at events perhaps 40 years ago in our history, we can see that there are good reasons why politicians should not get involved in operational policing issues. Whilst Mrs Dobson may well have genuine and reasonable concerns about policing in Banbridge, that is an issue that she must raise with the district commander and/or with the Chief Constable, but, I am afraid, not with me.”
“The operational effectiveness of the 11 new PSNI district command units, established to match the current council structure, is an operational matter for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Policing Board. While fully respecting his operational independence, I have regular discussions with the Chief Constable in relation to the outcome of operational decisions properly taken by him and what steps I might take to support the PSNI in delivering its policing plan.”
“For most people, the issue is how we provide for the needs of victims in the future and how we ensure that the agencies of the justice system respond to them and do not treat them as a piece of furniture while the court case is going on, concentrating on the perpetrator and ignoring them. <BR /> <BR />There is much in the charter to commend it to the House. On that basis, I am happy to commend the draft Victim Charter (Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2015) Order (Northern Ireland) 2015 to the Assembly.”
“I accept that there are victims of the past who have major concerns about OTR letters, because they are very personal to them, as many of us had concerns about the way in which the justice system was perverted by the issue of OTR letters anyway. However, to suggest that that is the worth of the charter, as opposed to the worth of the charter in the value that it will have for individuals who will become victims of crime in the future, misrepresents the value of the charter. For that small number of people, clearly it will be a concern.”
“I did not need Mr Allister to repeat the point he was making. I got the point that he raised, and I made the point — and I am quite happy to repeat it for him — that I simply do not know what the effect of an OTR letter, details of which may be held by an operational agency, might be. I am very happy to assure the House that I will seek to find out what the status of an OTR letter might be and inform the House of that if it is possible. Given that the issue has not been devolved, I cannot guarantee that it will be possible to get answers, but I will certainly seek those answers. <BR /> <BR />However, I want to take up a point that Mr Allister just repeated. He said that the issue of OTR letters would demonstrate the worth of the charter for many.”
“I simply cannot say exactly how they would impact on the way in which operational agencies might consider their role in the Victim Charter, because it is not something of which I have direct knowledge.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Allister, in his usual intemperate way of accusing me of ducking questions, raised a specific issue about the OTR letters. Mr Allister, like other Members of the House, is well aware of the fact that the OTR letters were not an issue that came anywhere near the Department of Justice; they were a matter for the Northern Ireland Office, and they were concealed from the DOJ at the point of devolution anyway. On that basis, I simply do not have the knowledge of the status of any extant OTR letters. I have made my personal position extremely clear over a considerable period of time as to what I think of those letters and how I regard them.”
“It would also be fair in that context, if it is not too much of an embarrassment to him, to also confirm that the Committee's interest in the needs of victims originated in the first point after devolution, the year in which Lord Morrow chaired the Committee. I am grateful for the fact that he flagged up issues then, although they were taken forward at a later stage. It is also appropriate to recognise that there are those in the House this morning who have been members of the Committee all the way through that process, including the vice Chair, Raymond McCartney, and Alban Maginness, both of whom have played significant parts in the development of the process. I believe that it has shown constructive and positive development, and most of the contributions made have reflected that.”
“We had practical examples, in particular from Mr Maginness and Mr Lunn, of what is in the charter and the significant improvement that that will make to the experience of victims and of other work being done by my Department in the partnership that we are currently engaged in. Through the Department working in partnership with the Committee, and with a range of voluntary sector partners and other justice agencies, I believe it is possible to continue to improve the quality of services provided to victims, focusing on those most in need and those who have particular concerns. <BR /> <BR />I note that a number of Members praised the work done not just by the current Chair of the Committee, who contributed this morning, but by his predecessor, Paul Givan, and I have no difficulty in confirming my thanks to them.”
“This short debate this afternoon has probably confirmed, yet again, Ford's first law of Assembly business, which is that the length of time taken on any item of business is inversely proportional to its importance for the people of Northern Ireland. However, I thank those who have contributed to what I believe has been a useful debate as we look to make tangible differences to the experience of those who are victims of crime. <BR /> <BR />Particularly in the context of ongoing talks, issues that may have happened in the past are not easily reflected, because my responsibility is to deal with what you might call "devolved crime" in the present, not the past. The charter, I believe, sets out clearly the services that victims are entitled to receive and how those services will be tailored to their individual needs.”
“An easy-read version of the summary is also available, and a young person's guide to the charter has been developed by young people for young people. <BR /> <BR />The charter builds on good work that has been done to date and forms an important improvement to the services that are provided to victims as we look to the future. I commend the victim charter order to the Assembly.”
“Combined with other measures that I am taking to speed up the justice system, the charter will improve the experience of victims as they journey through the criminal justice system. The charter explains what measures are available to provide support and will help victims to give their best evidence at court. Importantly, it also makes clear who to contact should services not be as expected or the entitlements set out under the charter not be provided. <BR /> <BR />The charter will be of most use to victims if they can access it. While the main document is lengthy, due to the need to be clear and comprehensive, alternative supporting documents are available. A summary of the main charter has been prepared and is available in the six most commonly used languages when interpreters are used at police stations or court.”
“Placing the charter on a statutory footing should result in an even greater focus on dealing effectively with the needs of victims.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Department and the Committee see the need to ensure that the services provided to victims are of the highest quality. We want to improve the experience of victims and witnesses so that they are treated the way we would all want to be treated ourselves. To this end, the Victim Charter clearly sets out the entitlements of victims, the services that are to be provided and the standard of services that victims can expect to receive as they move through the criminal justice process. Importantly, it follows a victim's journey through the process, rather than being written from the perspective of the organisations providing those services. It also clearly sets out the obligations on a wide range of service providers to deliver information, services and support.”
“<BR /> <BR />The introduction of a Victim Charter was recommended by the Justice Committee in its inquiry into criminal justice services available to victims and witnesses of crime in Northern Ireland in 2012, building on preliminary work done by officials in my Department. I pay particular tribute to the Committee, in both its first and second guises, for the work and scrutiny that it has undertaken in this area. This has been invaluable to the improvements to services that are now in place. It also demonstrates the value of a positive and constructive relationship between Departments and Committees. As is often the case, the Justice Committee and the Department of Justice have been of one mind, with the Committee significantly influencing what the charter should contain.”
“I am grateful to the Clerk for reading the title so accurately. Members will be aware of a range of changes that have been introduced in recent years to improve the services provided to victims and witnesses of crime. Central to these has been the establishment of a Victim Charter, which I launched on an administrative basis in January. The enactment of the Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 and the approval of this order will enable me to place that charter on a statutory footing, which we all welcome. This will take effect from mid November and will coincide with transposition of the EU directive establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims of crime. The charter is being largely used to transpose that directive.”
“Even though it was not possible to get agreement on establishing a separate strand of the HIU, those changes will ensure that, by undertaking independent article 2-compliant investigations into all the outstanding Troubles-related deaths, the HIU can draw on solid investigations in any future legacy inquests. That should ease the burden on coroners in conducting complex inquiries. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to continuing our work together to ensure that the best operating model for the Coroners Service is created for the future so that we can provide the inquests to which bereaved families are entitled, whatever the circumstances of the death of their loved one.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are going to be issues outstanding that are not for the justice system in Northern Ireland simply about resourcing; rather, they are about the implementation of the Stormont House Agreement to its fullest extent. I certainly take the points that were made from my left by the two Ulster Unionist contributors that there are other bodies that have perhaps not always been fullest in the disclosure that they have given on the role that individuals may have performed in the past either. <BR /> <BR />I believe that we have put a number of changes in place.”
“I thank the Mr Maginness for that point. He is, of course, well aware that there are issues of national security that are way beyond my pay scale in determination and that there will at times be issues, but I certainly believe that there is an obligation on all those state agencies that were involved — principally the Ministry of Defence in a number of the cases that require legacy inquests — to give as much information as possible and to do all that they can to ensure that individual military witnesses are made available. I made that point in correspondence with the Secretary of State, which she passed on to her colleague in the Ministry of Defence for me.”
“I remind Members that that was the view of the Lord Chief Justice, whom we are seeking to assume the presidency of the Coroners' Court in the near future. He saw that there were differences. <BR /> <BR />Other points have been made. For example, I have corresponded with the Secretary of State and asked her to make the point to the Secretary of State for Defence about the need to ensure that military witnesses are forthcoming in those cases in which there is military involvement. It is not therefore simply a matter of sitting waiting; rather, it is a matter on which there has been strong action taken in DOJ.”
“They are designed to meet the needs of relatively current cases — things such as hospital misadventure, road traffic collisions and accidents at work. The issue of addressing very significant and complex cases from many years ago is not one that is easily dealt with under the current arrangements. Although a similar point was made by the Lord Chief Justice last year, so far there has not been agreement. Therefore, we have to seek to manage the Coroners Service as best we can. <BR /> <BR />I make the point that, in discussing the case of the Jordan inquest last year, the Lord Chief Justice said:”
“I am committed to ensuring that we deal with those outstanding issues from the Stormont House Agreement, but there is clearly much work being done, including work that I left at Stormont House this morning in order to come to this debate. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the new historical investigations unit to be established by the agreement will create the opportunity to make a real difference in progressing those legacy cases. I make the point, because it has been made by others in this Chamber, that I personally believe there would have been a strong case for incorporating legacy inquests within a separate strand of the historical investigations unit. I do not believe that the current arrangements for inquests are very good at meeting the needs of bereaved families in those legacy inquests.”
“Progress will be subject to the allocation of funding in the context of the implementation of the Stormont House Agreement. <BR /> <BR />I hope that Members will appreciate that much work has already been carried out towards the enhancement of the Coroners Service, although, clearly, more still needs to be done to put these plans into action. However, as I said before, progress in dealing with the past, including the further enhancement of the Coroners Service and legacy inquest process, can only be made in the context of the full implementation of the Stormont House Agreement and the associated funding for which it provides.”