David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“The key factors behind initiating the review were the closure of the Compensation Agency, which brought its work within the core Department of Justice, and a proposed private Member's Bill from Robin Swann, which sought to add DARD's central investigation service (CIS) to section 46(1). Following a consultation with Mr Swann and the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, that measure has been included in the order. <BR /> <BR />As part of the review, ministerial colleagues were asked for their views on section 46(1) in relation to their Departments and arm's-length bodies. Consequently, a few further amendments to section 46(1) were identified as being necessary. Therefore, the draft order proposes the following changes to section 46(1).”
“Since the introduction of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002, section 46(1) has been amended on a number of occasions to reflect the evolving operating environment of the criminal justice system and, in particular, the various changes that have impacted on the organisations working in it. The changes relate to organisations that have been added to section 46(1) due to the type of work carried out, organisations that have been omitted and organisations requiring their titles to be amended. <BR /> <BR />The draft order has been produced following a review of section 46(1) carried out by my Department.”
“Following an inspection, the chief inspector will prepare a report for me, as Justice Minister, which I will arrange to be laid before the Assembly.”
“This draft order seeks to amend section 46(1) of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 in respect of the list of organisations that the Chief Inspector of Criminal Justice in Northern Ireland has the power to inspect. This follows a review of the organisations that are currently listed. Since section 46(1) was last revised in 2010, the criminal justice system has evolved, resulting in some changes affecting relevant organisations that require the current legislation to be updated. As a result, this draft order seeks to amend section 46(1) to ensure that the legislation remains relevant and meaningful. <BR /> <BR />The role of chief inspector of criminal justice is to ensure the inspection of all aspects of the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland, with a view to promoting effectiveness, efficiency and even-handedness.”
“People need to recognise the reality of what cuts will possibly mean. Some cases that would have merited police attention in the past will not now necessarily merit a response in the immediate circumstances, although perhaps a follow-up will come from neighbourhood officers rather than response teams, depending on the precise circumstances of the case. If we look at what is happening in other jurisdictions on these islands, we will see that there is still probably a significantly higher rate of response and a speedier response from the PSNI than is the case elsewhere. We need to face the reality of that as we look at budget costs and the competing pressures that apply across the Department.”
“Ms Fearon would perhaps be best advised to ask the Chief Constable what he meant by his statement if she does not understand it. It seems to me that, faced with the budget cuts that are being imposed on the justice system, there will be very significant changes to every aspect of justice. Given that the Police Service is the largest spending area of the justice system, it will inevitably bear its share of cuts as well. Exactly how the operational issues will carry through is an issue for the Chief Constable, not for me. He will have to make the decisions as to how to deploy the reduced resources he is likely to see this year and next year.”
“<BR /> <BR />As for discussions with my counterpart in the Republic, the report was only out at the very end of October, but I will shortly meet Frances Fitzgerald, the Minister for Justice and Equality, and I will certainly take the opportunity of that meeting to discuss that and a range of other issues with cross-border concerns.”
“I certainly agree with Mr Byrne about the need for urgency. The problem is that urgency that requires Westminster legislation, whether it is an amendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, may not be as urgent as he would wish in the context of a pending Westminster general election. I certainly think that we have highlighted the benefits of the law as it already exists. We need to ensure that people, such as environmental health officers in the various local councils, are made aware of that and use it where possible.”
“I noticed that there were some specific references to the approach that is being taken by the Irish authorities, which may well be the best way forward for the UK to follow. The DOJ will be working with the Home Office as it looks at its responsibilities. Then, if work needs to be done in conjunction with other Departments in Northern Ireland, I will certainly give an assurance that my Department will be part of that.”
“Mr Byrne correctly highlights the concerns that have been raised about legal highs. I know that significant action has happened recently on that front. The very positive work that was done against legal highs by environmental health staff from Belfast City Council was a significant step forward in using the legislative issues that arise around the matter of consumer product safety legislation. I believe that similar suggestions have been shared with others, possibly including Omagh District Council. <BR /> <BR />The key issue now will be to look at the report that has come from the Home Office, which, of course, has responsibility for what is a non-devolved issue, and see what lessons can be learned.”
“I am not sure that I can ensure that the British Government do anything. I will certainly use my influence to ensure that the British Government play their part in funding some proper institutions to look at the whole remit of all of those issues from the legacy of the past, which need to be dealt with to meet the needs of victims in every section of this society. However, I fear that Mr Sheehan gives me somewhat more ability to take decisions on behalf of the UK Cabinet than I currently have.”
“So far, that has not achieved any result, but I hope that the inter-party talks will lead to something that will see new institutions being established, agreements being reached in a way that meet the needs of victims of the past and deal with all those outstanding legacy issues and is properly funded by the Government that were responsible at the time those issues happened.”
“I can inform Mr Sheehan that, although I spoke to the commissioner during his visit, I have not spoken to the Prime Minister recently on such matters. On every occasion recently that I have met the Secretary of State, I have made it clear to her that I do not believe that the budget for the justice system today is capable of dealing with all those issues from the past, and I have made it absolutely clear that I believe, and as the commissioner said, that the British Government have a significant responsibility for funding whatever new institutions we might establish for dealing with the past as, indeed, I have made clear that I believe that the Irish Government also have a responsibility, though probably somewhat less quantitatively.”
“People should encourage anyone over whom they have influence to reduce tension, withdraw from the current protest activities and ensure that matters can be dealt with in a more constructive way than the way that currently costs £1 million a month and could have cost three lives last night.”
“Although I might agree with Mr Maginness that it is certainly time that those who sit in the camp at the top of Twaddell accept that they have made their point and that nothing further can be achieved, I am not sure that they are likely to listen to either Mr Maginness or me in that view being put forward. <BR /> <BR />I hope that Members, particularly those who represent North Belfast and who have links to those in the camp, will use their influence so that we stop wasting a significant sum of money every night of the year and stop putting police officers' lives at risk because they are forced to be on static guard in such a difficult area.”
“<BR />It is important that we all use all influences that we can to deal with that and encourage people to report crimes to the police, to cooperate with the police and to ensure that the good work being done by the PSNI is backed by local representatives and local people in that part of north Belfast in particular.”
“It is clear that some difficulties in Northern Ireland are exacerbated in some geographical areas more than others, and, frankly, Ardoyne/Twaddell is one of those that has most problems. There is no doubt that the continuing presence of protestors in Twaddell Avenue is leading to police officers having to sit on the Crumlin Road and is therefore putting them at risk of attack, not just from the sort of stone-throwing exercise that has happened at times from the unionist side but now in a very deadly way from the nationalist side of the line.”
“Again, I repeat the point I made to Mr Humphrey earlier that it was clearly an attack that attempted to kill police officers but might also have killed civilians, including civilians on the Ardoyne side of the Crumlin Road whom those who presumably carried out the attack would purport to represent. Therefore, it must be condemned by all of us, and we must all appeal for information to be given, where it can, to assist to put the perpetrators behind bars. <BR /> <BR />As for my assessment of the situation; I, clearly, do not personally make assessments, but what is reported to me is that the situation remains with a severe threat directed against police officers in Northern Ireland.”
“Although Mr Kinahan raises what appears to be a logical point, the reality is that there have been more attacks on prison officers during periods of the day when more officers are on duty than when fewer staff are on duty on landings, which would suggest that the reverse is the case. There is no suggestion, therefore, that it is the number of officers on duty on any particular landing at a particular time that has reduced the number of assaults.”
“Staffing levels are reviewed regularly in prisons and in different areas of the prisons. Risk assessments are carried out of what is appropriate and necessary, and it is certainly the case that that is ongoing work. I have no reason to believe, at this stage, that we do not have adequate staffing levels in every part of our prison system.”
“If Sinn Féin Members are prepared to rethink their refusal to take money from those who have assets in this country and fund the kind of services that are needed by the people who benefit from the Railway Street referral project, I am happy to reconsider how funds are allocated. However, unless Members of the Assembly recognise that we cannot cut a reducing cake to produce bigger slices all the time, it will simply not be possible to continue with the work that we seek to do.”
“This is another of the difficult decisions that have had to be taken, given the scale of the cuts that are being imposed on the Department of Justice. It is fine to say that particular projects save money, but the simple reality is that the Department does not have the money to continue doing the sort of work that it has been doing in conjunction with community partners on projects like this. It is not the case, however, that all such work is being reduced. As I understand it, the Northern Trust continues to be funded by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety on issues like drug addiction, and that funding will continue. In the current circumstances, however, it is simply not possible for the DOJ to continue to make its contribution towards that project.”
“The responsibility for providing advice and assistance to victims does not lie with the Department of Justice, although Members will be aware of the work that has been done under the victim and witness charter arrangements to ensure that we provide support through the criminal justice process to such victims.”
“The Prison Service is committed to developing and embedding opportunities for prisoners through career advice and life guidance. That has been recognised as a key contributing factor to effective resettlement and rehabilitation. NIPS, working in partnership with a range of service providers and key partners, has introduced a personal development model and provides a range of advice for prisoners on lifestyle topics such as healthy living, managing money and working towards goals, as well as more career-orientated advice on skills for employment and making informed career and progression choices. Through NIACRO's Jobtrack, NIPS offers an employment-focused programme, providing individual needs-based advice and support regarding training and skills development to increase employment opportunities.”
“No, I cannot confirm the arrangements for hospital appointments that may be made between the South Eastern Trust, which has responsibility for care in prisons, and the external trusts. If there are specific issues that you wish to write to me about, I will happily respond to you.”
“Mr McCartney is aware of the efforts made around millimetre-wave scanners, which simply proved to be not effective in the way required for prisons. At this stage, we await responses from others as we look at transmission X-rays. I am keen that we get that decision as fast as possible. We are currently in the hands of the UK authorities.”
“Mr Eastwood raises two particular points. Body searches are, to an extent, as degrading for those who carry them out as for those who are subject to them. That is why the Prison Service is moving in areas like that towards an intelligence-led approach. There is also a significant need to ensure the safety and security of prisons, prisoners and prison staff. We have not yet found an alternative to full body searches that ensures proper searching.”
“I have no immediate plans to carry out a review of the procedures for completing scheduled hospital appointments. The Northern Ireland Prison Service takes appropriate and robust actions to ensure that prisoners who must attend outside scheduled appointments for medical treatment are brought there safely and returned to prison as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />The Prison Service keeps its security procedures under review, including those for escorting prisoners outside the closed prison environment. The arrangements are also subject to inspection by CJINI, if required. The most recent inspection was very positive.”
“Minimum sentencing is not a normal part of UK practice. On a previous occasion in the House, Mr Allister reminded us of the danger of having minimum sentences for those who assault pensioners, when he referred to the case of a paedophile pensioner who was assaulted by the father of his victim. We need to be very careful of the implications of such matters.”
“I agree with Mr Brady that that will be one effect, but I pointed out in my principal answer that there is a three-way balance, and it is not simply the ability of individuals to move on in the labour market that we have to take account of.”
“Such changes for Northern Ireland would engage a wide body of interests across the Executive, the public and the Assembly as a whole. Given the scale of the changes involved, the breadth of interests and the issues involved, at this stage of the Assembly mandate, I have no immediate plans to introduce similar provisions. I will however keep a watching brief on the operation of the new regime in England and Wales.”
“In maintaining a regime in which convictions can become spent, a three-way balance must be struck between allowing a person to put their past behind them, recognising the needs of employers and those who work voluntarily with vulnerable people and ensuring public protection and safety. We must always be particularly alert to the need to ensure that those who work with children and vulnerable adults are fully assessed. <BR /> <BR />I recently introduced legislation to make it possible for some old or minor convictions to be filtered out from an individual’s criminal record. Beyond that, however, any proposal to adjust the period within which a sentence can become spent, similar to the changes made recently in England and Wales, would be a major change.”
“It would be easy for each and every one of us to identify cuts being made that, we believe, reduce confidence in the justice system. If the justice system is to have its budget trimmed in the way that has been carried out in-year by the majority on the Executive and as we face next year, there will continue to be cuts. That is an unfortunate inevitability. Whatever I do to protect the front line and the services that provide confidence, I cannot keep up the level of services. The budget is not available, and the cuts being imposed on me have to be passed on to the agencies of the justice system. That is simple fact. Unless Members are willing to accept that we need to do something about fundraising, they will need to acknowledge that cuts will be made.”
“As far as the negotiations go, I have had further meetings with the two nationalist parties. We have yet to reach agreement on what I regard as the essential way of ensuring that we fight issues like human trafficking, child exploitation, fuel fraud and tobacco smuggling by using the resources that are freely available from the NCA.”
“I, of course, endorse Mr Humphrey's remarks of condemnation of those who attacked the police last night. They put at risk the lives of police officers and, indeed, civilians in the area, including those from Brompton Park in the Ardoyne area, whom they would purport to represent. Such attacks must be condemned. I certainly join him in urging anyone who has any information whatsoever that might help deal with the perpetrators to come forward and give it. <BR /> <BR />I move now to his substantive question. Yes, it is absolutely clear that, had we the National Crime Agency in operation, it would bring some benefits — not huge benefits but some benefits. If it were able to operate in Northern Ireland, we could see some reduction in the current pressures on the PSNI.”
“I am grateful to Dr McDonnell for his support for the work being done by the Prison Service. The reality is that those cuts are still at a relatively low level compared with other areas of the Department, although it is not yet clear what cuts will have to be imposed next year. Given the amount that has already been done in the prison reform programme, such as the significant reduction in staffing costs, we have managed to make progress. There has been an improvement in the reform work that is being done for prisoners at the same time as costs have been taken out, so far, but there is a limit to how far and how fast that process can continue. There will be costs to the Prison Service if those cuts continue to be taken out faster than the reforms can be made.”
“That is exactly the case. Ring-fencing for the 2011-15 period did not mean protection for the Department of Justice; it actually meant a 7·2% cash baseline reduction across the budget, while the block as a whole, as I understand it, had a marginal increase in cash terms, although, of course, both also had a rather larger decrease in real terms. Then, in the June monitoring round, that ring-fencing arrangement was torn up, so that the DOJ took the largest cut of any Department, given the protection of Health and Education. Those are the circumstances that we have to live with, and that is why protecting the front line has become extremely difficult, despite having managed that fairly well for the first three and a half years.”
“Cuts will also impact significantly on the work and speed of legacy investigations in the police and the Police Ombudsman’s office. It is too early to provide specific details about the impact of budget cuts in 2015-16, but the issues that I have set out will continue.”
“Whilst those impacts have since been offset to a limited degree by the allocation of an additional £29 million to the DOJ, significant front-line impacts remain, including, for example, a severely detrimental impact on police resilience and capacity; an immediate impact on the operational prison regime; a significant impact on the courts system, including the closure of courthouses and a further reduction to essential front-line staff; and cuts to front-line probation services, including the number of probation officers and the ability to monitor offenders when caseload is increasing. In the absence of an agreed position on the past, the pressures facing the justice system in relation to legacy issues will continue to increase.”
“For example, the budget cut for the Northern Ireland Prison Service has been limited to 3·5%, and funding has been provided to complete the Prison Service staff exit scheme. <BR /> <BR />I outlined the impact of the in-year cuts to the Justice Committee on 1 October this year.”
“With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker I will take questions 4 and 6 together. <BR /> <BR />Throughout the Budget 2011-15 period, I have sought to protect front-line public services as far as possible against cuts to my Department’s budget. In allocating budgets at the beginning of the four-year period, I ensured that front-line areas received the lowest percentage budget cuts, with areas of the core Department making significantly higher percentage savings. In relation to additional budget cuts this year, I have again ensured that front-line services have received the lowest percentage cuts. My core Department has experienced cuts of between 10% and 16% this year to allow funding to be reallocated to the front line.”
“I need to be careful, given that there is the potential for legal action, but I think that most Members will be aware that concerns have been raised about how certain aspects of the work were carried out in relation to contracts with some of the external advisers and consultants. I have been assured that those matters are being followed up, but we need to ensure that that is done in a way that maximises value for the taxpayer.”
“I entirely agree with the point that Mr McCrea makes. Unfortunately, I am not sure that I am in a position to ensure that leaks do not happen. We know only too well across a range of public services in this place and elsewhere how frequently leaks happen. I will do my best to ensure that the facts are put on the table, as I did to him and other MLAs in meetings last week and to the Justice Committee last week and as I will do with representatives of the councils this week. It is important that those who hear the facts also help to ensure that it is the facts — not speculation — that are reported.”
“As the Member will know, that is a matter that I promised the local MLAs will be carried out as expeditiously as possible in order that we can re-examine the position. However, we have to ensure value for money and a worthwhile project going forward. There are difficulties in bringing other Departments and other services into a training facility that has to operate on a secure basis because of elements that are there, but it is certainly an issue that can and will be considered if it is possible to expand the use.”
“I am not sure whether it is appropriate to say "some journalists", but I can say to the Member that, when I read things in the 'Sunday World' saying, "Sources close to the Minister", I tend to assume that they have made them up. That is certainly my position in this case. There has been no source close to the Minister of Justice nor, as far as I am aware, any source close to the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety who has said that another site is now the favoured one. <BR /> <BR />In the review that is under way, we need to look at the options to see what needs to be done to scope out the potential training needs for the three services in the future, given that we are expected to see reduced numbers.”
“As I made clear, I am committed to the Programme for Government commitment, which is to the building of an integrated college to provide facilities for the three services working together. In current circumstances, it is not possible to say that that is a commitment to the Desertcreat site, although, clearly, the amount of preparatory work that has been done for Desertcreat means that it is still the only site in consideration. The review that is being conducted may — I stress the word "may" — lead to that having to be examined.”
“The steering group then reports through the two Ministers to the Executive.”
“I am satisfied that the appropriate and robust governance structures were and continue to be in place for the Community Safety College project. It is a complex and important project that we have to get right, hence the importance of the current review. My Department, DHSSPS and the three services are together responsible for delivering an integrated facility that meets the three services' training requirements at an affordable cost and with sustainable running costs. The college programme team reports to the programme board, which, in turn, reports to the steering group. That group includes the departmental accounting officers of Justice and Health; the accounting officers of the three services; members of the Policing Board; and the chief executive of the Strategic Investment Board.”
“In answer to Mr Maginness's point, I can say that the 2011 change to the Crown Court rules, to which I think he is referring, resulted in a reduction of approximately £20 million of legal aid expenditure. As I highlighted, because of the increase in the number of cases, that has to some extent been lost because of further cases going through, but, in an average year, that is what the benefit would be. It is, of course, only a small part of the reductions that need to be made, which is why at this point we are concentrating on civil legal aid costs.”
“Mr Elliott raises an interesting point about avoidable delay. I made the point earlier that, by speeding up cases through the Crown Court, we had actually reduced the problem of delay. However, avoidable delay is a problem that is not directly related to the issue of costs.”