David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“<BR /> <BR />There is a wider issue about amendments to the Bill and the openness of the Bill. In fairness, the reality is that it is not just the last Bill in a mandate which tends to end up, as a Justice Bill, as something of a miscellaneous provisions Bill. That seems to have been the pattern, and it is the pattern not just in this place; it is the pattern elsewhere. Certainly, I would be very happy to send the Committee seven or eight Bills every year, each of which covered one small, discrete topic and, therefore, could not be ambushed in the Chamber to considerable difficulties, regardless of whether the issue is one on which I tend to, perhaps, agree with the proposer, such as Mr McCrea, or one where I have had difficulties with proposers.”
“As I said, that has not happened, but we want to ensure it does not happen. <BR /> <BR />There was a rather interesting debate around the openness of the Bill and the possibility for amendments, and, of course, we had to resurrect clause 86, just to prove that this is a justice Bill. The Committee is going to keep me on my toes. In mitigation, I will point out that the clause 86 issue did not first arise on the last Justice Bill; it has been a feature of many Bills from many Departments, including those sponsored by Ministers from political parties whose members on the Committee have attacked me most over the issue. However, I have made it clear that we are looking to address that in the same way as we addressed the matter in the last Bill. So, we can all have a smile and agree that we will work together.”
“I stand to be corrected, and we will ensure that details are provided to the Committee, but my understanding is that deportation arrangements can apply to those convicted of certain offences who come from elsewhere in the EU. That can be looked at when the Committee is considering those proposals in detail. Similarly, a point was raised, briefly, about lay visitors to police stations. My understanding is that right of access has always been given to lay visitors to all police stations. The important issue is that this places the inspection of all police station custody facilities on a clear statutory footing. I suspect that Members will welcome that generally, as indeed they will welcome the likes of ensuring that children do not go into custody for non-payment of a fine.”
“We should, of course, remember that there are already in prison rules matters relating to national security, because the Secretary of State has certain roles in decisions over admissions to separated conditions in Maghaberry prison, for example. Although the Prison Service is part of the DOJ, there are powers for the Secretary of State outside that. I think that that is simply a replication of the existing arrangements, but I have no doubt that some members of the Committee — perhaps, not just Mr Maginness — may wish to probe that when we come to Committee Stage. The vice chair is smiling to prove my point. <BR /> <BR />An issue was raised about the deportation of prisoners from the EU.”
“Given that, I think, 90% of society believes that the organisation headed by Brendan McGuigan is the criminal justice inspectorate and not the Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland, I sometimes wonder whether the name matters. I refer Alban Maginness to clause 34, which talks about investigations requested by the Department into "any custody-related matter". That, I think, is why we are talking about a "Prison" Ombudsman and not a "Prisoner" Ombudsman. Frankly, however, if the Committee felt otherwise, I do not think my officials or I would be dying in a ditch over those two letters. <BR /> <BR />Mr Maginness also referred to the issue of national security, which is in clause 38.”
“I welcome the fact that even Stewart Dickson says he is going to scrutinise my proposals in detail, but the Committee will certainly have a role to play, and, as usual, the Department will engage with the Committee as we fine-tune the detail to ensure that we get what we all want out of that. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the second key issue. I certainly welcome the general welcome for putting the Prison Ombudsman on a statutory footing. I note with interest that Mr Maginness effectively said, "What's in a name?", and then said, "Maybe there is something in a name" over the question of whether it is the "Prison" or "Prisoner" Ombudsman.”
“In that context, we are not into southern Alabama, gangs in orange suits and chain mail cleaning the streets. We are talking about giving people positive options, which increase their reparation and their sense of worth, to encourage them not to reoffend. So, we are not talking about naming and shaming; we are talking about ensuring that people get something positive to do. <BR /> <BR />I also welcome the fact that has been highlighted on the issue of court processes, which are probably at their zenith at the moment in New York city. The concept of case management by judges and more regular engagement with offenders is certainly being seen by some of our district judges at low levels. That is to be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />I believe that, overall, that package around fines is one that we can look at.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also think, as has been highlighted just recently when we look at the good work done by the Probation Service on community service orders, that we have good reason to believe that its work on supervised activity orders in the case of fine default is likely to produce positive benefits for the community, the individuals and voluntary groups that benefit from the work that is done, as well as the individual.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have to differ slightly with the Chair on one point — it is always good to have some slight point of difference to emphasise these things — when he talked, quite reasonably, about the cost of uncollected fines and what we could do with the money. I remind him that fines go into the Consolidated Fund. The Treasury get its hands on it and it does not go to the DOJ. Would that it did; we would certainly put it to better use but, unfortunately, it does not come directly to us.”
“If we go back a few years, before the court challenges which put a temporary end to the practice, there were anything up to 2,000 people per year involved. Mr Maginness talked about hundreds, possibly thousands, but around 2,000 people per year were committed to prison for non-payment of fines. The number in prison on any one night was, of course, a very small proportion of the prison population, but the fact that they had to be admitted, all that work had to be done and then they were discharged a few days later was not good for them or the Prison Service. It actually did nothing for their victims in cases that involved things like compensation payments.”
“There is a genuine and entirely reasonable issue about ensuring that families do not suffer over the enforcement of fines, but the reality is, of course, that, once fines are levied, there will potentially be an effect on the families and dependants of those who are suffering, whether through financial penalties or whether they go to prison over the issue, as they have in the past. I believe that we have the balance right. I am grateful for the fact that a number of people welcomed the general initiatives around what I shorten to the concept of the "can't-pays", but there will continue to be the issue of the "won't-pays", and that has to be addressed. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members referred to the unfortunate effects that sending people to prison has on the individual, their family and the Prison Service.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will respond to some of the points, although, as you have just reminded us all, Mr Speaker, the debate is on the general principles of the Bill. I suspect that there was actually very little debate on the principles of the Bill; we are merely looking at how we work things through. <BR /> <BR />On the first point, a number of contributions were made on the issues of fines and enforcement. Certainly, I think that pretty nearly every Member who spoke referred to finding a proper balance.”
“I will start, as I customarily do at Second Stage — it may be slightly different by Consideration Stage — by thanking all those who contributed, particularly for the welcome that has universally been given to the Bill around the Chamber, with a few slight gradations. In particular, I thank Members for the consistent expectations that I have of positive engagement with those who have been on the Committee for some time. I welcome Neil Somerville to his first debate in the Chamber on a Justice Bill and I look forward to working with him. I also welcome the fact that Basil McCrea was the one Member not on the Justice Committee who chose to come and involve himself in this morning's discussion.”
“I am happy to confirm that it is a voluntary procedure, as is the case in Scotland at present.”
“As a piece, it will have strategic significance and operational importance for the justice system in Northern Ireland. The Bill is designed to deliver a justice system that is more effective and efficient and is fairer and better. It will be another important step forward in my programme of criminal justice reform. I commend the Bill to the House.”
“I would like to thank Committee members for their interest and support for the Bill. With less than a full session remaining, their support to date and ongoing commitment to deliver this important legislation has been greatly appreciated. There will, I am sure, be a need for additional amendments to be taken forward in light of the Committee's scrutiny of the Bill, and my officials and I look forward to working with the Committee to further improve the Bill as it progresses through the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, let me remind the House of what I said at the beginning. This is a Bill that will provide a much improved fine collection process for all concerned; the freeing up of valuable police and prison time and resources; better options for courts and, indeed, offenders; and better inspection and accountability mechanisms.”
“I also intend to introduce a provision on the age at which a young person can use a shotgun. The amendment will permit a person of 12 years of age or older to be in possession of a shotgun in a police-approved clay target range while under the supervision of a person who has held a shotgun on certificate for at least five years. Further to that, I intend to permit a person, from the age of 16, to engage in all shotgun activities — sporting and vermin uses — under existing supervision requirements. Finally, in respect of firearms, I will bring forward an amendment to deal with a small number of fee types in the Bill, and a larger body of work on reforming current fees will be taken forward by secondary legislation. <BR /> <BR />I believe that my Department and the Committee for Justice have a good record of working in partnership.”
“By way of my proposed amendment, collection officers will have access to employment, earnings or benefits information where an offender refuses to cooperate with the process. <BR /> <BR />Members will remember that, as part of the previous Justice Bill, I also gave commitments to bring forward amendments to firearms legislation in this Bill. The detail of those changes is still being finalised, but I intend to introduce a system to enable firearms dealers to exchange a firearm for a licence holder within a band. There will be bands or groups of firearms, such as air rifles, small quarry rimfire rifles, fox calibre centrefire rifles and larger centrefire calibre deer rifles, and a holder will be able to trade in a rifle in a band for another in that band as long as certain conditions are met.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am also looking at the need for provision on information sharing in support of the provisions in the Bill that require offenders to provide the necessary earnings and income information to collection officers so that the correct collection option can be chosen. If an offender does not provide the information to the collection officer, he commits an offence that can result in further prosecution. To avoid the situation whereby a collection officer can be frustrated by non-compliance in his attempts to secure income details, I propose to enhance the Bill's approach to information access and sharing in that area. I intend to bring forward an amendment to allow collection officers to better identify and pursue those who simply do not comply.”
“<BR /> <BR />To further strengthen attendance at fine default hearings, I propose that courts have a power to issue an arrest warrant for police to use in certain circumstances of non-attendance. Where police then encounter a person who is in default, they will be able to arrest them and release them on court bail for a future default hearing appearance. Coming at the end of the new collection process, which will already have seen a series of collection options considered, the number of non-attenders at fine default hearings should be low, but I feel that an additional power of arrest should be available to police to maintain the integrity of the fine collection and default hearing process as a deterrent to those who might seek to ignore the call back to the court.”
“Unfortunately, the timings of the two Bills meant that it was not possible to reflect that revised wording in this Bill before approval to introduce. However, the Committee need not have concerns, as we will engage with it and discuss that issue from the beginning. <BR /> <BR />For completeness, I should flag other amendments and further provisions that, with Executive approval, I intend to put forward in due course. Currently, the fine default hearing process, under which offenders can be returned to court to have their default reviewed, can be frustrated by defaulters simply not turning up for the hearing. If the court is not satisfied that notice has been served, the case must sit in abeyance. As drafted, the Bill will strengthen this process by moving from a notice to attend procedure to a summons procedure.”
“<BR /> <BR />Part 4 provides for ancillary matters, regulations and orders and commencement arrangements. It is probably worth my saying a few words about two particular provisions in this Part: clause 45, "Ancillary provision", and clause 46, "Regulations and orders". Members, particularly those who are members of the Justice Committee, will remember the debate on the supplementary, incidental, consequential and transitional provisions in the previous Justice Bill and, in particular, the order-making powers of what was clause 86, which the Committee thought were too broadly drafted. Clauses 45 and 46 in this Bill raise similar issues. <BR /> <BR />Recognising the Committee's concerns, I intend to put forward an amendment at Consideration Stage to reflect the agreed way forward that was secured for the previous Bill.”
“A number of stations have custody cells that may be used occasionally, and even though they are already inspected by lay visitors, they are not designated in law. The Bill will place that in statute, and all will be visited on the same basis. <BR /> <BR />Part 3 also enhances current legislation aimed at tackling sexual offending by extending the scope of the current offence of possessing extreme pornographic material. Under the proposed provision, those possessing an image that depicts rape or other non-consensual sexual acts will be committing an offence. The change will strengthen the law in this area, thereby providing better public protection, and it will put our law on the same footing as that in the rest of the United Kingdom, where similar provision has already been made to deal with this category of extreme pornographic image.”
“<BR /> <BR />Crucially, and this is a change to the scheme as originally envisaged, removal can take place only with the agreement of the prisoner, and this mirrors the position in Scotland. A prisoner so released who returns to Northern Ireland before his original sentence expiry date will be detained for a period equal in length to the outstanding custodial period or until his sentence expiry date, whichever is sooner. Those returning after the original sentence expiry date will be the responsibility of the Home Office's immigration service. <BR /> <BR />Part 3 expands the scope of lay visitor inspections of police stations. Currently, only stations designated by the Chief Constable are so inspected in law, designated stations being those that have custody suites.”
“It will simply allow that process to be accelerated by providing for the early removal of foreign nationals whom the sentencing court has already determined should be removed on completion of their sentence or whom the Home Office's immigration service has decided have breached the conditions of their leave to remain in the UK. <BR /> <BR />The scheme relates to determinate-sentenced prisoners only. A prisoner must be serving a sentence of at least six months and have served at least one half of the requisite custodial period before removal can take place. The maximum time a prisoner may be removed early is 135 days, although removal can take place at any time between then and the end of the sentence.”
“The Bill provides for a voluntary scheme to allow foreign national prisoners who are already subject to compulsory removal from the UK to have their sentence reduced to facilitate that removal. Schemes that allow for the early removal of foreign national prisoners have been established in Scotland since 2011 and in England and Wales since 2004. They reflect national government policy to remove a financial burden on the taxpayer by returning foreign criminals to their home country earlier than would otherwise be the case. That generates savings in custody costs and frees up valuable cell and bed space. <BR /> <BR />I must emphasise that this scheme, as set out in clauses 43 and 44, will not introduce deportation or removal.”
“I view the placing of the office on a statutory footing as an important public signal in reinforcing the independent nature of the post.”
“Some of those functions are currently carried out on a non-statutory basis, but the Bill now enshrines those in statute and removes any grounds for misconception about the Prison Ombudsman's independence from the Prison Service. There will be a duty on parties to an investigation to cooperate with the ombudsman's investigation, which must also produce a report after an investigation. The ombudsman will have a right of entry to prison premises and the juvenile justice centre, as well as powers of access to documents needed for his investigations.”
“In future, only non-custodial options will be available, including additional time to pay, payment by instalments and the use of the attendance centre order as a community option. <BR /> <BR />Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill make two key improvements to our prison services. They create in statute a Prison Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and provide a scheme whereby certain prisoners liable for deportation at the end of their sentence can opt for early removal from the United Kingdom, before the end of their sentence. Placing the Prison Ombudsman on a statutory footing has been a goal of mine for a number of years, and I am pleased to give it effect in the Bill. The Bill sets out in law the main functions of the ombudsman, which are to deal with complaints, death in custody investigations and those investigations requested by my Department.”
“A much wider range of options will be available at first instance and at the default hearing if an offender is referred back to the court for non-payment. The benefits of that system will be seen in the freeing-up of police and prison resources, in the focus on collecting money rather than immediate punishment for non-payment and in helping offenders themselves deal with their fines and avoid imprisonment. <BR /> <BR />A small but key feature of the Bill will see an important change to the law for children and the payment of fines. I do not think that this has ever happened, but, in law, it is still technically possible for a child to go into custody purely for not paying a fine. Even that legal possibility is unacceptable, and the Bill will remove that option from the law.”
“If those are unsuccessful, the supervised activity order can be used by the court to require community-based work instead. <BR /> <BR />The Bill therefore provides considerable assistance to those who are sometimes described as the "can't-pays", but there are also more stringent options built in for the "won't-pays". For the more wilful defaulter, who has the ability to pay but does not, the collection officer will refer the case back to the court, where other options will be available. The court can consider direct access to a bank account and in certain circumstances can even order the seizure of a vehicle. The last resort of the court should be committal to custody. However, the package as proposed will see those numbers reduce to only a residual level.”
“The provisions, of course, will apply to more than fines. Financial penalties coming within the scope of the scheme will include compensation orders, the offender levy, costs and unpaid fixed penalties that are registered in court. The Bill also increases the payment options available to those being fined as well as the collection options available to the court and the collection officer to secure payment. <BR /> <BR />An important feature of the new collection scheme will be the prioritisation that must be followed when the court, or the collection officer, is considering its options. If needed, voluntary arrangements will be adopted first by the granting of additional time to pay or by payment by instalments. Following that, a deductions order arrangement can be made, voluntarily in the first instance.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have said on numerous occasions in the House and elsewhere that the current system represents a dreadful misuse of police time and a waste of costly prison resources, which brings the credibility of the fine — a mainstay of court sentencing — into disrepute. Reform has been, and will continue to be, a major task for us. It is important that we get it right, and I believe that the Bill delivers a better and fairer system for all concerned. <BR /> <BR />Part 1 of the Bill creates a completely new approach to the collection and enforcement of financial penalties. It reforms the collection process, increases options for offenders to manage and pay their fines, and increases the opportunities for service in the community instead of imprisonment when people do not pay their fine.”
“As I have already indicated, the Bill is about transforming our justice system, particularly in one key area: how we collect and enforce financial penalties set by the courts. The current law on fine collection and enforcement has been in existence, unreformed, for many years, largely since 1981 but in some instances as far back as the 1940s. There is a long-standing problem with significant levels of non-payment leading to increasing levels of default and a historical problem of people ending up in prison for short periods, when providing other ways in which to avoid default would be much better for them, their families and the justice system.”
“2) Bill are a much improved fine collection process for all concerned; the freeing up of valuable police and prison time and resources; better options for courts and, indeed, offenders; and better inspection and accountability mechanisms. As a consequence, the Bill will deliver a more effective and efficient justice system, which will be a fairer and better justice system for all.”
“Of course, Members will recall that my Department also worked extremely closely with Lord Morrow on the development and progression of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. <BR /> <BR />The devolution of justice powers and the ability of a devolved Justice Minister to deliver local solutions to local problems has been a major achievement of the Assembly, with Minister, Department, arm’s-length bodies, NGOs and the Committee all working together. We have a much improved criminal justice system today as a result of devolution. <BR /> <BR />The principles behind the Justice (No.”
“As an Assembly in this mandate, we have already enacted four major pieces of legislation. The Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2013 improved sex offender monitoring and notification arrangements and created a new fingerprint and DNA retention framework. The Legal Aid and Coroners’ Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 2014 opened a new chapter in the management of legal aid through the creation of the Legal Services Agency. The Justice Act 2015 improved services for victims and witnesses of crime and introduced a number of measures to speed up the justice system and to make it more efficient and effective.”
“As I have said on previous occasions, my intention is to reform our justice process into a better system for all concerned. The Bill before the Assembly today is another step forward in that reform programme, which is being delivered with pace and commitment by my Department and partners across the justice system. I introduced the Bill on 30 June, just one day after the Final Stage of my previous Bill, which you announced yesterday is now the Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. Finishing one piece of legislation and immediately following it with another is a demonstration of that commitment to improve the effectiveness of our justice system. <BR /> <BR />As we approach the end of the first full Assembly mandate for the Department of Justice, it is worth recalling that much has been achieved in the field of criminal justice legislation.”
“All of those are issues that are unacceptable, and they all need the support of society generally to fight as well as requiring the police to carry out their duties under the law.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the pleasant things about the last few days has been the fact that people are concerned about the issue of refugees arriving in the European Union and have been talking about what Northern Ireland could do to help them. I hope that, if that is the case and a number come, we do not see the kind of hate crime that we saw in parts of Belfast on racial grounds, just as I wish to see an end to hate crime on sectarian grounds, homophobic grounds and against people with disabilities.”
“Again, Mr McKay has almost the same problem as Mr Allister and Mr Nesbitt in inviting me to interfere too much operationally. It is, however, reasonable to say that I have expressed a view to the police of my concerns about the management of those bonfires, but not in the sense of giving a direction, which is what he was almost hinting at there. <BR /> <BR />There are fundamental issues about the way in which this society functions, the need to be rather more respectful on some issues and the need to ensure that cultural expression by those who wish to engage in certain activities is positive and not a negative sign of hatred. Sadly, we have seen too much of that.”
“The simple answer is this: not at the present time. I certainly share the concern, which I suspect Mr McKay is about to express, about the way in which hate crimes were carried out. If he wants me to put it very personally, putting a Sinn Féin election poster on a loyalist bonfire is no more acceptable than putting an Alliance Party poster on a bonfire. There are real issues with what is claimed to be cultural expression, and it is not just done by those who burn bonfires on 11 July. There are real issues where cultural expression tips over into sectarian hatred. I certainly believe that there is a real need to address hatred, whatever kind it is, whatever day of the year it occurs and wherever it happens.”
“The answer to that is that I am not aware of any damage that has been done. Indeed, the Prison Service has an interesting environmental record in providing for ground-nesting birds around Maghaberry, for which we can claim some degree of credit. I certainly take his point. I will investigate it and come back to him.”
“Mr Speaker, I am aware that we do not have a Minister for Regional Development at the moment, but I am really not sure that I am in a position to answer a question about the capacity of a waste water treatment work. Mr Ó hOisín outlined specific concerns. I am quite happy to say that, if I can find a Minister for Regional Development to engage with in the coming weeks, I will so engage with him.”
“<BR /> <BR />All those issues are being considered, but the key issue at this point is to find a way of living within the budget whilst doing the best that we can to maintain as much as possible within scope. That will not be the case if there are viable alternatives that are suitable for the future.”
“In a sense, there are two elements: the first is the immediate issue of how we live with the current arrangements and the second is the wider issue, and I will shortly see the report of the second stage of the access to justice review, which will enable us to look at issues of scope and whether there are different ways of meeting needs. I certainly believe that there are some areas where it is possible to have decisions taken at lower tier courts, which would therefore reduce the cost but still provide a service. There may be some issues for which mediation is suitable, rather than going into an adversarial court system, which would provide benefits. I think that we also need to look at issues like insurance.”
“I believe that the Justice Committee is likely to see some of those proposals this week.”
“Mr Speaker, if I went over the two minutes on that, you would probably tell me off. Over the summer, there have been very significant discussions on legal aid rates. Those discussions continue, and significant work is being done. It is absolutely clear that we have to live within the budget that we have and that it is not credible that the current expenditure on legal aid can be maintained into the future. Following a period in which there was reluctance on the part of the Law Society and the Bar to engage, there have been detailed, positive and useful discussions, and recommendations are being made. Of course, Members will be aware that there is a judicial review pending against the Department, jointly by the Law Society and the Bar Council. I hope that it will be possible to avert that on the basis of proposals being put forward.”
“There were cases in which bus occupancy was below 40%, and, in those circumstances, it seems not unreasonable to reduce the number of days per week on which they travel and have the buses fuller when they are running.”
“I am not sure that "considerable" is fair, although I accept that it will have an effect on those who have been using it on particular days. We are looking at the Derry to Maghaberry service, for example. It still runs on two days a week, rather than three. That may mean that some people will need to vary the times at which they go, but, faced with all the other cuts that are happening, I think that it is not unreasonable to accept that still providing that service on two days a week is a reasonable effort. As I highlighted, I certainly think that we also need to look at making better use of public transport: at meeting public transport rather than a NIACRO bus running the whole way.”