David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“It is a perfectly reasonable question from Mr Eastwood. I do believe that there are issues that say that if we concentrate on a smaller number of courthouses, it may well be possible to ensure that we cut out some of the delays if, for example, we have a greater number of staff working in a group. Even, at times, the ability to provide a deputy judge if a judge is sick may be enhanced by having a smaller number of venues that provide greater economies of scale. That is the amount of detail that is being worked through by my staff. Proposals will be put forward on that.”
“At the moment, the specific issue of courthouses is under consideration. Proposals have been developed. Members will be aware that there are already proposals to close hearing centres in Magherafelt and Limavady on the basis of boundary revisions being put through. The reality is that there are major issues around the current running of the court system. In some cases, it is costing money to provide relatively elderly facilities, which, in some cases, are not disability-friendly. Concern is being caused about their overall running costs. There may well be a case for rationalisation of the court estate to ensure that better services are provided in a smaller number of modern courthouses rather than the large number of older buildings which do not meet the needs of the 21st century.”
“The important thing is that people cut down on administration costs and ensure that as much as possible of the funding for PCSPs goes into providing direct services, whether by staff or others.”
“That is clearly an issue for PCSPs themselves to address. Clearly, there will be a role for new councils in addressing that. I have no doubt that, given that we are talking about a smaller number of larger councils, there ought to be economies of scale that reduce those administration costs. I suspect that, to some extent, there may be slight difficulties in some cases. Issues may be presented as administrative costs, which are actually funding council staff or PCSP staff engaging in full-time front-line work with communities, particularly around safety and addressing the fear of crime. It all tends to get wrapped up as administration nonetheless. There may be work that is being done, which is funded by salaries as opposed to project money, and is not administration but is being counted as such.”
“It is also clear that, in some areas, there have been greater difficulties in getting the arrangements joined up, and we have not yet seen the full benefits of bringing district policing partnerships and community safety partnerships together, which is what was envisaged when we passed the Justice Bill in 2011. I think that it is a challenge. I certainly hope that the work that is being done by my officials with PCSP managers will ensure that we see an improvement so that all of them live up to the current standards of the best.”
“I think that it is fair to say that, in the work that they have done, some PCSPs have been better than others. From what I have seen during a number of visits to the four PCSPs in the future Causeway area, where Limavady, Coleraine, Ballymoney and Moyle have been cooperating, some very good work has been done, particularly on addressing issues of concern for young people, such as a car-crash simulation and a play that I recently saw performed in Bushmills on the problems of underage drinking. <BR /> <BR />Therefore, it is clear that, in many cases, PCSPs are doing good work.”
“That is why is it urgent that we use the proposals for what Richard Haass called the "historical investigations unit" — I do not particularly mind what it is called — to ensure that it not only does investigations into the past but that those investigations lead to seeing the truth recovered and publicly tested for the benefit of bereaved families so that they can get past the current blockage of not seeing inquests happening.”
“I know that my colleague has a particular interest in and concern about one group of bereaved families — the Ballymurphy massacre group. There is no doubt that, although they are close to seeing inquests happening into the death of their loved ones, there are many others further back in the queue who are unlikely to see inquests on the current basis being called for many years, with all the dangers that that has of causing further distress and upset to victims.”
“However, there are possibilities from the talks going on between the parties that would see work being done around truth recovery and work that would allow information retrieval in a way that would benefit victims. There are further issues around services for victims that need to be addressed that go a little bit beyond my direct responsibilities for the justice system.”
“As Minister of Justice, I see every day the impact that the legacy of the past has on the operation of the justice system. There is no doubt that the pressures on the Police Service are exacerbated by the large amount of historical work that is having to be done by the PSNI. That work was previously done within the Historical Enquiries Team (HET), but Members will be aware of restructuring reforms going ahead there. There is similarly a pressure of the past on the Police Ombudsman, and the fact that we now have a very significant number of legacy inquests ordered is adding to that further. All of that is making difficulties for the justice system in dealing with the needs of the present. The work that the justice system is doing around the needs of victims is largely concentrated on that for the present.”
“Unfortunately, it took many months to get that agreement from the Committee, and we will need to see much quicker movement if we are to deal with the problem of excessive legal aid spending compared with other jurisdictions and to ensure that we can redirect funding to the services that we would all wish to see funded.”
“Unfortunately, although I suspect that most of the House probably agree with Mr Moutray, if there are legal obligations to pay legal aid to solicitors and barristers at the rates currently set by statute, it is not possible to say that, in the interests of defending other services, those will simply not be paid. I am sure that most Members of the House would wish to see services such as policing, community safety, youth justice and even the probation service funded ahead of legal aid, but the reality is that there are contractual obligations that have to be met as we seek to produce the reforms. I welcome the fact that, in October, I got agreement from the Justice Committee for a further £4 million reduction in the legal aid bill.”
“I am sure that Members will be aware of the fair bit of work that has been done on the cost of legal aid over, frankly, almost the entire period since I became Minister. The first element was reducing Crown Court fees significantly and introducing standard fees, which resulted in savings in excess of £20 million. There have been further reforms of other minor criminal matters, and work is ongoing to examine the scope for legal aid and alternative methods for providing legal assistance, where required, in a number of types of civil cases. It is clear that the budget for legal aid has been exceeded every year for many years, which it unfortunately continues to be, in a way that is damaging to the rest of the justice system's budget.”
“I do not answer here as leader of my party, but I will certainly do my best, including as Minister of Justice, to make sure that we reach a comprehensive agreement that ensures adequate funding for the justice system to deal appropriately with the matters that have arisen in the past and that are creating difficulties for the justice system today.”
“I suspect that if we were going to take that question much further, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, Ms McLaughlin and I should go down to Stormont House rather than stand in the Chamber. I believe that there are significant legacy issues, which were not dealt with fully in the talks that Richard Haass convened a year ago, and which, it now appears, are being dealt with in a more comprehensive and joined-up way in the talks that we expect to see the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach lead later this week.”
“I am not sure that I have a role in the current dispute at the European Court of Human Rights between Ireland and the United Kingdom. I am happy to guarantee that any information that my Department holds that may be relevant to historical matters will be made available in accordance with court requirements. I am fairly sure that that does not apply in this case.”
“Would that it were that simple. The reality is that anything we would look at would require primary legislation, and before we could engage with primary legislation we would need to ensure that we had considered all the relevant issues on firearms together. It would be impossible to produce legislation on this one specific issue. As yet, unfortunately, there is no consensus amongst the shooting organisations, never mind the PSNI and DOJ, on the appropriate way to move forward.”
“As part of general reforms on firearms, I have stated my intention to lower the age at which young people are permitted access to shotguns in certain circumstances. The proposals have been published, and there have been a number of discussions, some of which are ongoing, including quite recently. Ideally, we need to reach consensus about a number of issues relating to firearms before progress can be made. Certainly, I am fully aware of these issues and, indeed, have met some of the young people who have been able to represent Northern Ireland outside, but not within, Northern Ireland. I recognise the concerns expressed by the Clay Pigeon Shooting Association, amongst others.”
“If individuals have concerns, they need to be formally reported in a way that means that they can be investigated and not merely raised in an anonymous way, for example, on the Floor of this Chamber. There are proper procedures that should be put in place, and I urge anyone with concerns to use them.”
“That is a low level of complaints when set in the context of a workforce of just over 1,800 staff, although all such complaints must be treated seriously.”
“The Northern Ireland Prison Service is committed to creating and sustaining an environment where everyone is treated with respect and dignity, free from any form of inappropriate behaviour. Prison Service staff are supported in challenging any unwanted, unreasonable or offensive conduct, and procedures are in place to enable them to do so. All incidents of bullying and harassment by prison staff towards other prison employees reported under these procedures are captured and recorded. Such incidents are treated seriously and dealt with in accordance with the Civil Service dignity at work policy. <BR /> <BR />Between April 2012 and November 2014, there were 20 reported incidents of bullying and harassment: 15 were resolved informally; one was withdrawn; and four resulted in formal investigation.”
“I seriously wonder, for the second time today, whether Mr Poots actually listened to what I just said. I made it absolutely clear what was required to show respect and I made it absolutely clear that I stand with the director general and the Prison Service in implementing the recommendations to ensure that prisons are safe places. That requires action by those who are making threats to stop making threats, just as it requires management change in some of the administrative and managerial issues in Roe House.”
“The recommendations have been accepted and are being implemented by the Prison Service. Mr McCann rightly talks about the need for people to be treated with respect, and the most urgent part of that is to ensure that the threats against prison officers are lifted immediately.”
“I am grateful to Mr Eastwood for his endorsement of the team's work. I believe that it has carried out a very valuable function for a significant period, not least in the preparation of this report. That is why, after careful consideration, the Prison Service has accepted the report in all but one partial respect on visits. I hope that we will see positive responses on all sides to ensure that that work can be carried through in a way that reduces tension in the prison and which ensures that Roe House and other parts of Maghaberry are safe for prisoners, staff, visitors and, ultimately, the wider community.”
“With permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will take questions 6 and 9 together. <BR /> <BR />Members will be aware that I provided a comprehensive update to the Assembly in respect of the stocktake report by the independent assessment team in a debate on 25 November. The assessors made 10 recommendations. Of the nine that fall to the Northern Ireland Prison Service, eight have been fully accepted and one has been partially accepted. One recommendation, in respect of the criteria for entry into separation, is a matter for the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to consider. <BR /> <BR />I am grateful for the thoroughness and balance of the report, which has now been published, along with a detailed response from the Prison Service.”
“I would certainly welcome the application of those standards that apply to the PSNI to the NCA, because, at the moment, the NCA is operating in Northern Ireland in the reserved sphere without any accountability mechanisms whatsoever. That is a further addition that would be given if we had the NCA operational in the devolved sphere. It would then also be accountable in the reserved sphere, and, indeed, for the seizure of assets. That is a further reason why we need it.”
“I am in no position to judge the operation of the NCA across the water. What I am absolutely clear about is that the concerns that Mr McCartney has raised about accountability are exactly the reason why, from the very beginning, I have sought to ensure that there is proper accountability, primacy of the PSNI, a role for the Chief Constable in the approval of operations, a role for the Policing Board, and a role for the Police Ombudsman in any operation of the NCA here. That would address the kind of concerns raised by Mr McCartney.”
“We cannot be sure whether the absence of the NCA was a factor in any specific instance, but there is no doubt that, cumulatively, especially at a time of budget restraint, we are losing out by not having the NCA, not least in the civil recovery of assets as well as the direct crime-fighting ability it would bring.”
“There is also an inability to source financial investigation expertise from the NCA where the offences being investigated are devolved, which in turn has hindered a number of investigations, for example, on waste crime. The NCA cannot assist the PSNI with, amongst many other things, child exploitation and human trafficking operations, again leaving Northern Ireland at a disadvantage. <BR /> <BR />I will continue to urge all Members to work constructively to reach agreement on the current proposal so that our law enforcement agencies and our people can benefit from the skill, expertise and resources of the NCA.”
“It is a comprehensive proposal that would create clear, transparent and significant local accountability. It is the result of extensive work between my Department, the NCA, the PSNI and the Home Office and it has the full commitment of all those bodies. <BR /> <BR />Since then, I have met all the main parties, and I will continue to engage. However, as I said previously, we cannot operate in limbo indefinitely. If there is no resolution soon, we may have to find a way to work within the present limitations. <BR /> <BR />Currently, there is a complete absence of civil recovery here in the devolved arena, making Northern Ireland a potentially attractive place for criminals to operate or keep their assets.”
“With permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 5 and 7 together. <BR /> <BR />The National Crime Agency (NCA) is still prohibited from operating in the devolved arena in Northern Ireland, and, as I have stated many times, there is clearly a major gap in our ability to tackle serious and organised crime groups as a result. That is why, along with the PSNI, the NCA, the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) and the Home Office, I am making every attempt to resolve the situation. <BR /> <BR />On 8 September, I circulated an updated proposal paper to, among others, the main political parties, the Justice Committee and the Policing Board setting out proposals on the accountability of the National Crime Agency, which should, in my view, enable us to achieve the full operation of the agency here.”
“<BR /> <BR />If Members wish to go back to the Minister of Finance and Personnel and suggest that the Department of Justice should have its budget restored to the ring-fenced position — where we were managing the strongest cuts that were happening to any Department anyway — and not impose further cuts, I will happily lead them in a deputation to DFP.”
“I mean no insult to Mr McKinney when I point out that neither he, nor anybody else who has spoken on this question, has suggested anywhere else where money can be saved. That is the blunt reality of the life that we have to live with. It is fine to talk about benefits in the future by maintaining services today. However, if we cannot fund them, we cannot fund them. It is as simple as that. Whether it is realistic, sensible, strategic or long-term, the budget of the Department of Justice, despite being supposedly ring-fenced for this year, as the end of the four-year CSR period, was cut unilaterally in year, and the Department of Justice is living with the consequences. That is the reality of where we are currently placed.”
“Sadly, a lot of preventive work done by my Department is invest to save, and it is going to have to go in the face of the budget cuts imposed on my Department. Specifically, Mr Allister may make reasonable points about saving the health service or saving lives. However, the role of the Department of Justice is not to take over the role of the health service. We work in partnership at the moment in a number of different areas, of which the Railway Street project is but one. However, the prioritisation has to ensure that, if there are issues of concern to one Department, they cannot always be bailed out by another. I am looking to see what is possible. As I have said to a number of Members — we still have two Members from North Antrim who have not asked yet questions — we can but say difficult times cause difficult decisions to be taken.”
“As this project is actually run by the Northern Trust, though two thirds funded by the Department of Justice, it is an issue for the trust to follow up with its parent Department, DHSSPS, and not for me as Minister of Justice to follow up. That is one of the issues that I may be able to explore later this week. There are real challenges, across a range of budget cuts affecting every Department, to see whether it is possible always to prioritise the front-line services that we would wish to.”
“I appreciate Mr McKay's reference to his constituents and Mr Frew's. I remind him that, at the meeting he was at, one of those present was a constituent of mine. I am entirely aware of the local value of the project. The meeting with trust officials is to explore what possibilities exist to see whether it is possible to continue the project in a meaningful way. If the Member is asking me to say that I will meet officials halfway, I am not sure whether that means keeping half of the grant aid. I can make no specific promises, but I will go in there to see whether it is possible to make any kind of arrangement with the trust.”
“Of course I regret cutbacks to front-line projects like this, but, given the budget cut that the Department of Justice is faced with, there is no choice but to make cuts that will be difficult, will damage community safety and will reverse many of the advances over the last four and a half years.”
“The fact that the Department funded the project for the last three years is clearly an indication that it was seen as a positive project. However, I repeat my point: in the light of the cuts being made to my Department's budget, it is not possible to continue to protect front-line services. Mr Frew specifically referred to the number of prisoners and crime rates. The reality is that, although a lot of positive work was done by the Railway Street project, crime rates in Ballymena have decreased at a broadly similar rate to crime rates across Northern Ireland. The number of prisoners that might have resulted had there been a slightly higher rate is not, as has been suggested to some people, at a cost of £60,000 per additional person admitted to prison. The marginal cost of that is significantly less.”
“Since the trust was advised of my decision, I have met Daithí McKay MLA and a delegation that included representation from local GPs, pharmacists, service users and their families and a union representative. I am due to meet trust officials later this week to consider whether anything further can be done. The decision was not an easy one and was not taken lightly. However, following the significant cuts in funding to the DOJ in-year, it has not been possible to continue to protect front-line services.”
“My Department has contributed approximately £330,000 per annum — 66% of the total cost — over each of the last three years to the Northern Health and Social Care Trust to run the Railway Street service in Ballymena. Given the changing financial environment, my Department first notified trust officials in October 2013 that funding was at risk. Given the increasing pressures on my budget, notice was given to the trust in October this year that funding would cease at the end of January. We have since secured funding to provide an additional month's cover. No discussions were held with stakeholders prior to the trust being notified of the decision. The Probation Board, which provides one dedicated member of staff to the project, was advised at the same time as the Northern Trust.”
“However, allowing for the difficulties that the agencies have should not detract from the good work being done by the assets recovery community scheme.”
“I must congratulate the Member on the way in which he managed to extend that question. The reality is that we use the assets that are seized in the best possible way. It is up to the justice agencies, which are responsible for seizing those assets, to carry those out. Specifically, on the topic of fuel laundering, I take it that Mr Beggs is not suggesting that we should sell illegally laundered fuel to people to make a profit from it. That would be the only way in which we would recover those specific assets. It is unfortunately the case that, since so many of the fuel laundering plants are automated without people present, it is difficult to prosecute individuals even where it is possible to seize the plants.”
“I do not have figures suggesting how much money has been spent in different districts. That information is certainly freely available; I just do not happen to have it in front of me. There is no suggestion that money is disproportionately going to Belfast. In past years, it has certainly gone to each of the 26 districts, and, to ensure that there is best value for money, it has been allocated on the basis of projects that have passed a scoring matrix. The reality is that even in the tight circumstances of this year, when we had slightly less money to spend than we might have hoped, we were able to ensure that each of the projects that passed an appropriate mark was able to be funded. There is no question of money not going to areas outside Belfast if the projects are good enough.”
“Yes, I agree. The reality is that it is only since devolution on 1 April 2011 that we have persuaded the Treasury to enable Northern Ireland to access 100% of Northern Ireland criminal confiscation receipts. Previously, it was only 50%. Whilst the agreement is capped at £10 million per year and is potentially time-limited to the current CSR period, I believe that we have shown very positive results from it. It is unfortunate that it is perhaps not slightly more flexible, but, nonetheless, £2·1 million — not just £2 million — is an extremely positive statement of good work being done in every part of the community, principally through PCSPs and agencies of the justice system. That is all very much to the good of communities right across Northern Ireland.”
“Since it was first launched in 2011, the assets recovery community scheme has awarded over £2·1 million to nearly 200 projects that meet the statutory criteria of fighting crime or the fear of crime. The schemes supported include diversionary activities for young people; making older people more secure in their own home; and projects aimed at reducing drug and alcohol abuse. The projects are based throughout Northern Ireland and are benefiting urban and rural areas. The emphasis is on encouraging new, innovative projects. It is of great satisfaction that not only are the projects benefiting the community but they are being funded through assets recovered from criminals.”
“I am happy to give that confirmation. I know that there are those who have suggested that I am in favour of abortion on demand to the point of birth: that is a complete fabrication. The consultation is on an extremely narrow area, looking at fatal fetal abnormality where doctors certify that there is no prospect of life and no life-saving treatment could be given after delivery. It also raises the question around rape and incest. It is far away from the way that the law operates across the water, and there is no intention on the part of the Department of Justice to go anywhere near the 1967 Act.”
“Mr Maginness raises a serious point. The reality is that, at present, in Northern Ireland, in the small number of abortions that are lawful to protect the life of the woman, there are no grounds of conscience to withdraw because it is that kind of procedure. I see no prospect of there being legislation in this jurisdiction that would have grounds of conscience any less than the grounds of conscience that exist under the 1967 Act for England, Wales and Scotland.”
“The consultation document contains information on the proposals for change or potential change in the law. It is for those who wish to comment on it to raise their concerns, and the Department will fully consider any responses. Clearly, issues are arising from a number of legal cases, but, if we held up all consultations as part of a legislative process until all matters were settled in the Supreme Court, we would never consult on anything.”
“I am not sure that it is necessary or appropriate to extend the period. Specifically, the Supreme Court has been asked to judge on the basis of the current legislation as it applies in Great Britain, which is not directly relevant to any proposal for legislation that we might introduce in this jurisdiction. We are at a relatively early stage of any legislative process, and we are not in anything like the same position of the concerns that are being raised about the operation of the current GB legislation.”
“The judgment of the Scottish Appeal Court in the Doogan and Wood case is referred to in chapters 8 and 9 of the consultation paper, and readers are particularly requested to address in their response a provision for conscientious objection and how it should be formulated. <BR /> <BR />Although the case is now in the Supreme Court and a ruling is not expected until next year, the consultation paper makes clear my intention that draft legislation should take full cognisance of the need for clarity and certainty in any provision for a right to refuse to participate in the termination of pregnancies on the grounds of conscience.”