David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“I think that we are effectively discussing only one amendment of the nine is an indication of the good work that was done by my team and the Committee's team in the background to ensure that the Committee Stage dealt with most of the issues in a way that ensured that we are now at a very easy stage. <BR /> <BR />Let me turn to amendment No 6. First of all, in specific response to Mr Kennedy's point, my understanding is that a paramedic is an ambulance worker who provides services under the instruction of the Ambulance Service trust and is therefore completely covered. The more interesting point is perhaps volunteer first responders.”
“I endeavoured to make a brief introduction on those nine technical amendments. I shall endeavour to make a brief winding-up speech, though I will not as brief as Mr Attwood was. <BR /> <BR />There are really only two points at issue. The first is that I appreciate the remarks, led by the Chair of the Committee, on the constructive way in which the Department and the Committee worked together. On this occasion, he got in his praise before I got in mine, but it is only right, as part of the good working relationship that we have, that he should occasionally get the chance to lead on it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, amendment Nos 8 and 9 make some further, purely consequential amendments to the long title as a result of the addition of the provisions on revenge pornography and attacks on ambulance workers at Consideration Stage. <BR /> <BR />As I indicated at the beginning, the amendments are all purely technical, taking forward the will of the House as expressed at Consideration Stage, and I am happy to commend all of them to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />Almost finally, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I now turn to Mr Frew's amendment at Consideration Stage that sought to create a new offence of assaulting and obstructing certain emergency workers. The amendment was supported by the House and voted to stand part of the Bill, becoming clause 54. As with the Committee amendment on revenge pornography, I was content to support Mr Frew's amendment, but I did indicate that there were a number of definitional issues with his clause that would need to be addressed at Further Consideration Stage. I am pleased that my officials have liaised with their colleagues in DHSSPS to address those issues. The changes set out in amendment No 6 deal with them and, I understand, have the support of Mr Frew.”
“Accordingly, amendment Nos 3 and 4 adjust clause 51(9)(b) to provide that the penalty available on summary conviction is imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both. That ensures that the penalty is consistent with that available on summary conviction for other hybrid or either-way offences in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 5 inserts a new subsection (10) into clause 51 to give effect to a new schedule 3A to the Bill that is needed to support the provisions in clauses 51 to 53. The new schedule, which is inserted by amendment No 7, replicates provisions in schedule 8 to the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 and will ensure that the provisions operate as intended. The Chair of the Justice Committee has indicated that he it is content with those revisions.”
“The amendment had the support of the House and was voted to stand part of the Bill, becoming clauses 51 to 53. I indicated that I fully supported the amendment at Consideration Stage, subject to a minor amendment at Further Consideration Stage to clarify the penalty for a summary offence.”
“As I indicated to the House, the agreed policy intent was to require the ombudsman to do so and that I would bring forward a small technical amendment at this stage to correct the necessary subsections. Amendment Nos 1 and 2 deliver my stated policy intention, and the undertaking that I gave at Consideration Stage, by changing "may" to "shall" in clause 35(15) and clause 39(8) respectively. <BR /> <BR />The amendment tabled by the Chair of the Committee for Justice at Consideration Stage to create a new offence of disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress, generally known as "revenge pornography", also left some tidying up to be done. A similar offence was created in England and Wales by the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015.”
“As you highlighted, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, all nine amendments are technical and arise purely from amendments made to the Bill at Consideration Stage. Amendment No 1 is the first of two corrections to two clauses in the Prison Ombudsman provision in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Members will recall that I made two amendments to what are now clauses 35 and 39 at Consideration Stage to require the ombudsman to inform the police of a suspected criminal offence in relation to any investigation that he is conducting. I advised the House that the wording of the amendments that were debated and voted to stand part of the Bill granted a power, rather than placed a duty, on the ombudsman to draw to the attention of police any matter relating to a criminal investigation.”
“With thanks to both the Members who have spoken in the usual lengthy debate that we have on these important matters, I again commend the motion to the House.”
“I do not believe that it is necessary to make any specific responses to the points raised by the Chair and Deputy Chair of the Committee except to make the point again that this was another example of good work being done between the Department and the Committee. I thank my officials and the Committee staff for the work that they did in putting it together. I certainly acknowledge the concerns that were raised and which the Chair highlighted, but I do believe that the issue of judicial oversight will ensure that these powers are not used disproportionately, will fall into line with what is already good practice in Scotland and will ensure that Northern Ireland remains on a par with England and Wales.”
“For those reasons, it is appropriate that we should seek a legislative consent motion (LCM), and I ask the Assembly to support it.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am, therefore, asking the Assembly for legislative consent to extend this Bill to Northern Ireland to ensure parity and consistency in investigations conducted by the CCRC. Given the demands on the legislative programme, there will be no opportunity to legislate for this change via the Assembly, and it will be to our advantage and to the advantage of those who suffered a miscarriage of justice to implement this change in tandem with England and Wales. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that the Assembly's preference, like mine, is that we ourselves should legislate on Northern Ireland matters wherever possible. However, in this instance, we are talking about minor changes to a body that has a wider remit than Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />The CCRC has sought that additional power for some time, and I am content that the contents of the Bill are necessary and proportionate. The commission believes that having the power on the statute book will be enough to persuade many private bodies to cooperate with the CCRC voluntarily, thereby avoiding the need to invoke the power to compel. <BR /> <BR />Clause 2 sets out the proposed territorial extent of the Bill, which is the same as that of the CCRC, being England, Wales and Northern Ireland. As the power already exists in Scotland, we had the opportunity to look at how it has worked there, where I believe that the process has worked well with no evidence of abuse.”
“In essence, the Bill seeks to redress a legislative oversight from 1995 and give the commission much-needed powers to request evidence from private sources. That is its sole function. <BR /> <BR />The Bill contains only two clauses. Clause 1 provides a power to obtain documents and other material from non-public bodies. Critically, as set out in clause 1(1), that power will be subject to the safeguards of judicial oversight and a Crown Court order, so the CCRC could compel a private individual or organisation to provide material only by order of the court. <BR /> <BR />The new disclosure requirements would apply notwithstanding any obligations of secrecy or other limitations on disclosure. Clause 1(3) provides that the commission shall not disclose any information without the consent of the person concerned.”
“The power to require that information, subject to judicial safeguarding, is set out in section 17 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1995. However, the CCRC will often need to look at evidence and information held by private sources, such as individual witnesses, solicitors, private security firms or private medical practitioners. Under the current legislation, the CCRC must rely on cooperation and voluntary disclosure, because it has no formal power to require evidence to be disclosed from non-statutory organisations.”
“This is a private Member’s Bill sponsored by William Wragg MP, and it had the support of the Government when it received its Second Reading on 4 December 2015. The Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) is the public body charged with investigating alleged miscarriages of justice, which involves it seeking a range of evidence and information, often going back years. Its skilled investigators, caseworkers and commissioners do that important work for potential miscarriages of justice in England and Wales and in Northern Ireland. Scotland has its own arrangements. <BR /> <BR />In the course of its work, the CCRC will look at information and evidence coming from a wide range of sources, including the police, the prison and probation services, the NHS, local authorities and other public-sector sources.”
“No. I do not agree that that is the position. In recent months, a cultural shift has led to many more officers being on duty and ensured that prisoners are being managed better, in a way that reduces tension and is less likely to lead to injury to officers or other prisoners.”
“The issue is at this stage is to ensure that there are appropriate but not excessive levels of supervision in every area, ensuring that the most difficult areas receive significantly higher supervision levels.”
“At present, there is clearly a reduced number of prison officers, which is why one of the key issues that are being focused on by the governor and the senior management team is sickness absence to ensure that, when possible, officers are at work. A recruitment exercise is being carried out. We need to be careful that we do not automatically assume that the prison supervision ratios that applied some years ago are necessarily appropriate. Reference to ratios of one prison officer to so many prisoners in particular areas does not represent the reality of the different threat levels in different parts of Maghaberry and different kinds of prisoners in different parts of the prison.”
“Given that we are talking about voluntary organisations whose direct line of contact is not with the Department as much as with the Police Service, other agencies and voluntary sector partners, I am not sure that it is the Department's responsibility to enhance their training. It is, however, the Department's job to encourage better joined-up working, and I believe that we are doing that to ensure better professionalism among all those who work in the justice system by encouragement but not by direction.”
“I can go only on the basis that the two key restorative justice organisations are fully accredited and inspected by Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland, along with statutory elements in the justice system and the reports to me are favourable.”
“I thank Mr Allen for the question. At every Question Time that I have done in the last year, I have highlighted the fact that budgetary restrictions are being imposed on the PSNI. It has to deal with significant and severe crimes or threats of crime, with the result that there has been reprioritisation and, therefore, an inevitable slight increase in burglaries. The statistics show a significant decrease in the number of burglaries in Northern Ireland over the last seven or eight years. In that context, much though we might wish it, we cannot expect an ever-decreasing level of crime, and I suspect that, if there is reprioritisation because of budget restrictions being imposed on the Department of Justice, it is inevitable that there will be some increase in burglaries.”
“I have not specifically discussed burglaries in East Belfast with the PSNI because that is very much an operational issue for the Chief Constable. Whilst we discuss general policing matters, we do not discuss that level of operational detail.”
“I certainly agree that the Government have a duty, as do other agencies and individuals, to assist in finding the truth about what happened in the case of the 55 legacy inquests awaiting hearing in courts in Northern Ireland. That includes people talking about their involvement in these issues as well as the more bureaucratic approach that we were talking about earlier with regard to finding potential witnesses and making them amenable. There is work to be done by agencies and a moral obligation on agencies and individuals to assist victims.”
“I think that there is some progress implied; the important issue is whether the comments made by Lord Justice Weir are taken into account by the MOD representatives and carried through in full.”
“I certainly accept the point that Mr Dallat makes about the historical position. Following the letter from the Secretary of State for Defence to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, on the back of my query, I think that we have seen an improvement in the help being offered by the MOD. However, that is where I hinted that we needed to ensure that it was carried through into reality. For example, we have seen it instituting better administrative checks on records, including pension records, to look at potential witnesses. We have also seen the agreement that the Royal Military Police (RMP) will use its policing powers, if necessary and possible, to assist the process. That would mean, obviously, that the RMP would have policing powers to go into liaising with outside agencies beyond simply trawling through MOD records.”
“Specific issues regarding the appropriate balance of skills that would be required for the coroner investigator posts and the knowledge that the individuals would have of the operation of the justice system in Northern Ireland were looked at. That is why the criteria sit as they do. On the evidence that is put to me, I am satisfied that it will be possible to recruit people who have the appropriate knowledge but are not in any way compromised in carrying out the work that will be required in the new posts.”
“I am afraid that I cannot give any direct additional information on that. It is safe to say that Members are aware that a recruitment process is under way, but I am not sure of the exact detail of where we are with the recruitment of those persons.”
“Members are well aware of DOJ's difficult budget situation. I have no doubt that the Courts and Tribunals Service is keeping all its buildings under review, but I have not, at this stage, seen any specific proposals for renovation in Downpatrick. I suspect that the reality of the next financial year or two is that it will be unlikely that there will be anything significant within that timescale.”
“There I was thinking that, when I made the courts announcement, Mr Hazzard did a good job by not just making a plea for his local courthouse. The simple answer is that there are no plans to take additional services into Downpatrick at this stage. On the basis of transport and communications links, Downpatrick is seen as serving a fairly discrete area. It is a bit like the point that I made in response to Mr Ross, which was that, no doubt, Members will suggest all kinds of different projects that might be run in particular courthouses, but we need to ensure that we get the balance right and that we manage the costs right, with a lot of the new proposals, such as on problem-solving courts, being handled in the best way to provide an efficient service.”
“The precise issue of the operational cross-border arrangements rests with the two leading police officers, although Members will also be aware that a number of other bodies, such as the DARD veterinary service, have been suggested for inclusion in the operational subgroup to ensure that we get not just the policing services and the key agencies but some agencies that have not always appeared on the criminal justice list involved in ensuring that we tackle the variety of different crimes that operate on a cross-border basis.”
“Mr Rogers is now taking me into the direct responsibilities of the operational cross-border group. Members will be aware of the very significant amount of work that has been done in support of trailer marking and a variety of issues relating to Farmwatch and so on. I hope that, in the next few days, we will see a further announcement on the good work being done. <BR /> <BR />Most of that has been led by individual PSCPs as they look to see what their local needs are.”
“I thank Mr Rogers for that question. I frequently discuss with the Irish Justice Minister— I think probably at every meeting I have with her — the issues of operational support for the two police services. I know that there had been discussions ongoing very recently between officials about the refresh to the cross-border policing strategy, which I hope to be able to launch within the next few weeks, subject to timing arrangements at this stage largely because of the elections to Dáil Éireann. I believe that good work has been done on that, but it is important that we get the public statement of the relaunch of that strategy.”
“However, it is clear that much more work is required in the identification and tracing of retired military witnesses and in communication with them regarding participation in the inquest process. <BR /> <BR />I also note the involvement of the MOD in the preliminary hearings on legacy inquests before Lord Justice Weir recently. Those 43 inquests with an MOD involvement represent a significant proportion of the legacy inquests that remain outstanding. I trust that the MOD will respond fully to the requests for information that Lord Justice Weir made in those hearings.”
“I wrote to the Secretary of State on 15 June 2015 asking her to raise the issue of tracing retired military witnesses directly with the Secretary of State for Defence. I asked that he consider what steps might be taken or whether additional resources could be deployed by the MOD to address the problem that the coroners have encountered with retired military witnesses. In response, the Secretary of State for Defence advised that he is conscious of the importance of securing the full participation of the widest possible range of witnesses and that the MOD would do all it reasonably could to facilitate their engagement. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that response.”
“I am aware of previous criticism of the Ministry of Defence regarding the disclosure of material and making former soldiers available for interview for a number of legacy inquests in Northern Ireland. I am also aware of the impact that those issues can have on the ability to progress legacy inquests and on public confidence.”
“The good news of that is that it means that we are likely to see a reduction in diesel laundering, with all the effects on public health and pollution associated with it, which her colleague the Environment Minister will be well aware of. The bad news is that that probably means that some of those gangs will turn to other issues. We need to ensure that the police response is adequate on both sides of the border to deal with that.”
“I can give the House the assurance that, on the information that I receive about there being very close coordination between the two police services, very good work is being done, particularly with the new structure of the joint agency task force, to tackle criminal activity. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Kelly referred to the number of gangs dealing in drugs. We should also be aware, of course, that many of them deal in a variety of different crimes. That is why it was a particular pleasure for me to see last week the very good work being done by HMRC in tackling diesel fraud. The new marker is extremely effective in catching vehicles that were using laundered diesel. Even in cases where the old marker has been laundered out, the new marker shows quite clearly.”
“I can guarantee only that the PSNI is provided with the resources that are available for me to provide to it. Members will be aware that the PSNI budget was significantly protected for next year compared with other aspects of the justice system. However, the precise allocation of resources across individual districts is a matter for the Chief Constable, not me. <BR /> <BR />I note Mrs Dobson's particular point relating to cross-border criminality. There is no doubt that the recent upsurge of drug-related crime in Dublin has led to a reallocation of resources by an Garda Síochána, which may well have had some effect in border areas. It is important that we see the arrangements continuing between the two police services. The joint agency task force will enable better coordination between the two.”
“Membership will comprise senior operational representatives from a wider group of relevant law enforcement agencies to be decided by the group.”
“The fight against cross-border criminality is principally an operational matter for the two police forces and other law enforcement agencies, coordinated through the new cross-jurisdictional joint agency task force. The terms of reference for the task force were agreed at a ministerial trilateral meeting held in Dublin on 21 December. A strategic oversight group will be jointly chaired by the deputy commissioner for operations of an Garda Síochána and the PSNI assistant chief constable for crime operations. Other members will be senior representatives of other relevant law enforcement agencies. The joint chairs have already met twice, and the first full task force meeting will be in early March. An operations coordination group will be chaired by chief superintendents from the PSNI and an Garda Síochána.”
“As I said at, I think, my last Question Time, I have not had a recent specific meeting on these issues with the Prison Officers' Association, but I meet it whenever I am requested to do so.”
“I cannot give the immediate stats for the numbers who are off work today for injury on duty, but there are solid arrangements in place to provide support for officers, including counselling services and line managers keeping in touch and offering assistance in dealing with sickness issues. All of that is carried out in connection with the general processes outlined in the Civil Service handbook but recognising that prison officers are in a particularly difficult place compared with many civil servants. That support has shown that the number who are off on sick can be reduced, as has happened in recent months, and that is good for all concerned.”
“The safety of staff and prisoners remains under constant review.”
“The Prison Service continues to maintain a clear focus on the safety of staff. The Maghaberry senior management team has been refreshed and strengthened, and unit managers are now based in the residential areas to provide visible leadership and support for staff. Staff training and the rotation of staff working in the more stressful areas is ongoing. The introduction of a new core day for prisoners, with more appropriate mealtimes and longer periods outside residential units, reduces prisoner frustration and provides a safer environment for all. Other measures put in place with regard to safety are the visible patrolling of prisoner recreation areas by staff and the piloting of body-worn cameras. The use of these cameras by staff has clearly led to a lessening in verbal abuse and a reduction in aggression directed at officers.”
“There are a variety of plans — obviously subject to capital, if anybody wishes to speak to the Finance Minister — to develop all three prisons. There is the very significant partnership with the two colleges in the provision of accredited courses on the same basis as it would happen outside. There is the work that I mentioned on the desistance strategy and on rolling out the Inspire programme for women. All of this shows significant advances in recent years that, I believe, are now part of the culture of the Prison Service and will make a real difference in the years ahead.”
“Yes, I certainly do. We are conscious that, this week, we are due to see the latest update on the Criminal Justice Inspection report on Maghaberry prison. However, alongside some of the short-term difficulties we have seen there, we have seen significant issues. For example, the last meeting of the prison review oversight group signed off on 36 — 90% — of the 40 recommendations made by the prison review team, many of which are about embedding long-term structural change. That is very significant. We have seen massive issues in refresh and improved training for staff across a variety of grades. Hydebank Wood College is the first secure college anywhere in the United Kingdom. We have seen the reopening of Burren House as a step-down facility for men and the opening of Murray House as a step-down facility for women.”
“I am also conscious of the fact that, despite the significant increase in that work, there remain prisoners who do not have the opportunities either in learning and skills or direct work. It is an area where we need to continue to work with some of our voluntary sector partners outside to get the best possible opportunities.”
“Mr Maginness puts his finger on one of the key issues to do with rehabilitation, which is the opportunity for employment or, rather, constructive, worthwhile activity. We have certainly seen some significant improvements, particularly at Hydebank Wood, but we have also seen significant opportunities for employment and voluntary service based at Magilligan in recent times. We have a number of enterprises based in our prisons that employ people in prison, as they leave prison and for a short period afterwards. The Thinking Cup Cafe and Book Reserve in south Belfast, which works with young men who have family responsibilities and assists them to get into a culture of employment as they leave, is the right kind of example.”
“<BR /> <BR />Belfast Metropolitan College and North West Regional College provide a wide curriculum of learning and skills across prison establishments, all of which will result in an accredited outcome. The Prison Service also works in partnership with employers to provide work experience and job-sampling opportunities for prisoners prior to their release. <BR /> <BR />In all those ways, we have put rehabilitation and transformational change at the heart of the Prison Service in Northern Ireland. That remains the direction of our prison service, and the Prime Minister's recent statement suggests that those in England and Wales are now on the same path.”