David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“None of those who responded raised concerns about the effectiveness of those aspects of the existing provisions. Although suggestions have been made about strengthening the declaration against terrorism, it is the same declaration that applies to candidates in council elections. The relevant provisions of the code of practice, therefore, remain unchanged.”
“The code of practice on the appointment of independent members to PCSPs and DPCSPs contains provisions to disqualify a person from appointment on the grounds of a criminal conviction and requires applicants to sign a declaration against terrorism. <BR /> <BR />Following appointment, the Policing Board may remove a member if, in the case of independent members, the member fails to disclose a conviction or have demonstrably acted in breach of the terms of the declaration against terrorism, or if he or she convicted of a criminal offence. <BR /> <BR />A revised draft version of the code of conduct was issued for public consultation last March. Responses were received on a range of issues from a wide range of individuals and organisations.”
“Certainly, the H-blocks and some of the facilities in Foyleview, the open unit outside the prison, are of a decidedly third- or fourth-rate nature, yet some exceptionally good work is being done. On the day I was there, over half of the prisoners in Foyleview were out doing some constructive work for the benefit of local charities, community groups and churches, which is clearly the kind of rehabilitation work that is needed, but we need to get the buildings fit for the purpose of many of the programmes delivered in them. So, I might not go and stay the night, but I assure Mr Dallat that I will continue to visit it by day.”
“That is quite interesting because I remember that, on one occasion, members of a local council invited me to visit a Department of Justice courthouse. They felt that they were inviting me to their courthouse, whereas, in fact, it was mine. I am not quite sure whether, technically, Mr Dallat has the right to invite me to spend the night in one of my prisons. I am also not sure that there are enough free cells, as I cannot imagine that anybody would want to share a cell with me. <BR /> <BR />On a serious note, I was in Magilligan for a detailed visit in the early part of the summer and am well aware of the inadequacies of the physical accommodation.”
“Mr Campbell really is asking me to put my neck in the noose with people from other constituencies as well. I believe that we have a realistic programme. Clearly, some areas in Magilligan are of higher priority than others. Some accommodation is fundamentally not fit for purpose: some of the cellular blocks need replacement as a very urgent priority. On the other hand, some of the other facilities for learning and skills workshops, although far from ideal, do not require replacement on the same basis. I am sure that the Minister of Finance, with his customary pleasant look at the needs of the Department of Justice, will take account of that, especially if one of his party colleagues, the Member of Parliament for the aforementioned constituency, lobbies him with me.”
“I am tempted to say that Ms Sugden should take that question to the Minister of Finance, but I shall try to answer it seriously. It is not clear at this stage what finance will be available. The timeline that we are looking at is for a phased redevelopment that would allow the prison to remain in operation while building work is done, which could take until 2022-23. On that basis, the capital sums required in any one year are relatively modest and within what we anticipate being the Department of Justice's capital budget, but, clearly, there is competition for priorities — no doubt, at some point soon, other Members will jump up and refer to Hydebank Wood and Maghaberry as well as any other DOJ responsibility. I believe that it is realistic, given the planned phasing, but we will have to see how things develop in the next CSR period.”
“The outline business case for the redevelopment of Magilligan prison was submitted to DOJ financial services division for scrutiny in August this year. My officials are assessing its content, and Prison Service officials have been working closely with them to address some of the finer details. Once the financial services division officials confirm that they are content with the outline business case, they will submit it to the Department of Finance for approval.”
“There are very significant issues that all need to be addressed, whether they are close to the border, in north Down or in any other part of Northern Ireland.”
“There was a recent example of money laundering, when the root offence involved cannabis growing, but it could not be considered by the NCA because cannabis cultivation is a devolved issue. There are cases of drug importation into the UK in which the PSNI was asked to take action on behalf of the NCA, but officers had to be diverted to another serious crime, so there was a potential loss. <BR /> <BR />They are all examples. With civil recovery figures, we can see clearly that, as of 30 June this year, there were only eight Northern Ireland cases under investigation compared with 19 a year earlier, with gross assets being considered of £9·8 million this year as opposed to £19·2 million last year. That is a sign of work being cut back on civil recovery because we can no longer deploy the NCA into that area of work.”
“I am not sure whether Mr Easton should simply highlight crime around the border, because it is clear that a lot of organised crime is not related only to the border. Indeed, some issues on the border are reserved matters, so the NCA can operate. However, there is no doubt that we are losing out at present. <BR /> <BR />I could give the House any number of examples of where we are losing out, but that would take rather longer than the two minutes that I have. That includes investigations into child abuse cases, including online child abuse, and the work of Operation Notarise, which was UK-wide but had to be carried through by the PSNI whereas NCA expertise was used in England, Wales and Scotland.”
“The reality is that all members of the NCA cannot be subject to exactly the same mechanisms as the PSNI, but, in the paper that has most recently been prepared, the accountability mechanisms for NCA activities go significantly beyond any other part of the UK and are as near as can be the same. The role given to the Chief Constable in approving the actions of the NCA and the role of the Police Ombudsman, who will have responsibilities for, amongst other things, civil recovery and the actions of NCA officers operating in the reserved and devolved sphere, are all significant advances on what would have been the case. That takes them very much into the same region as PSNI accountability.”
“No, it is not acceptable, and people are clearly vulnerable in a number of areas. We need to be clear that some issues, including some that Mrs Cameron highlighted, are covered by reserved matters and that the NCA is operational. However, as I highlighted to Mr Weir, we also know that a large number of those carrying out organised crime do not check the legislative book before deciding whether they will do reserved or devolved crime. Therefore, there can be problems in taking action against criminal gangs if part of their work is in the so-called devolved criminal area.”
“I urge all Members to support the current proposals so that our law enforcement agencies and our people can benefit from the skill, expertise and resources of the National Crime Agency.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am in the process of meeting the main political parties. The meetings to date have been positive in tone, and I am hopeful that we can achieve a resolution. I have made it clear that this is the last attempt to do so in the foreseeable future. The current state of limbo has existed for too long. If we cannot achieve agreement now on the proposal, we must accept that it will not be possible to do so and start to work to plug, as far as possible, the gaps in our law enforcement efforts that this has caused. <BR /> <BR />The consequences of a failure to reach agreement on the operation of the NCA in Northern Ireland have already been felt across law enforcement.”
“With permission, Principal Deputy Speaker, I will take questions five and eight together. <BR /> <BR />Members need to be aware that there is now clear evidence of a major gap in our ability to tackle serious and organised crime groups. That is why, on 8 September, I circulated a further paper to, amongst others, the main political parties, the Justice Committee and the Northern Ireland Policing Board, setting out proposals on the accountability of the National Crime Agency (NCA), which should enable us to achieve the full operation of the agency here. It is a comprehensive proposal that will create clear, transparent and significant local accountability and is the result of extensive work between my Department, the NCA, the PSNI and the Home Office and has the full commitment of all those bodies to make it work.”
“I am not in a position to attribute motivation to any Member of this House — heaven spare me if I did — but it appeared to me that the concerns that were raised were not valid and on that basis I took the view of the majority of those who had been present in the room.”
“The correct timescale is that serious concerns were raised in the media by Ms Ruane. Subsequent to receiving a recommendation but being made aware of the concerns that she had raised, from the media and the chair and chief executive of the aboard, I deemed it appropriate to request her to meet me to explain the concerns that she had put publicly. On the basis of the concerns that she expressed, and discussions I had with others, I believed that the appointment was made properly and that is why I confirmed it.”
“The position was that I became aware that one member of the panel had withdrawn from the process on the day of second interviews and expressed concerns about the procedures. I felt that it was appropriate, given my role of ensuring that the procedures were carried out properly, to request that member to come to a meeting. At the same time, I had a number of meetings with the chair and chief executive and, as I said, with the independent adviser. On the strength of the assurances that I was given, I am assured that the process was carried out properly. Although one member expressed concern, I believe that the other eight were unanimous in the recommendation that they made. I believe that that was an adequate basis on which to accept the recommendation.”
“I am content that the procedures developed by the Northern Ireland Policing Board in relation to the recent recruitment of the Deputy Chief Constable were properly adhered to. While the board is responsible for developing the process and running the competition, I have a role, in legislation, to approve the proposed appointment of senior officers. <BR /> <BR />In light of concerns raised by a panel member, I sought assurances from the board's chair and chief executive in relation to the appointment process. I also met the panel member concerned and consulted the independent adviser from HM Inspectorate of Constabulary. <BR /> <BR />On the basis of the assurances received regarding the integrity of the process, I was content that there had been extensive oversight and scrutiny, and I approved the panel's recommendation.”
“That is a very significant issue. The latest statistics that I saw showed that something like 57% of domestic and sexual violence was alcohol-related, which is a huge issue for this society. It is one of the key issues that will come through in the joint strategy between the Health and Justice Departments on stopping domestic and sexual violence, as we seek to put together the work that was done in two separate strategies. <BR /> <BR />One of the key issues where there has been direct action on this has been very noticeable. The pilot, where police officers in G district, in and around Derry, have been wearing body cameras, has produced specific results relating to a domestic violence incident. I hope that that is something on which we will see further work being done across Northern Ireland.”
“I am glad that Mr Givan added that final rider: I was going to say that I am not sure that, as Minister of Justice, I have a remit specifically to concentrate on minimum pricing. I am on record as personally supporting minimum pricing. So, if he is asking whether I would support such a proposal were it to come to the Executive, the answer is that, if the argument in favour was as cogent as that of Mr Givan and his colleagues, it would be highly likely.”
“I am not sure that there is that close a link between legal highs — new psychoactive substances — and alcohol. As most Members are aware, the specific issue of legal highs is a reserved matter. I have been in correspondence with the Home Office about that recently. The Home Office has a report that is due for publication in the near future, and we await its proposals. <BR /> <BR />One of the issues that is also relevant is the work that has been done in the Republic in recent years, and some of the work that we have done, making use of consumer protection legislation, has had benefits when it comes to protecting the public in Belfast, Omagh and Larne. <BR /> <BR />So, there are matters that can be used within our legislative framework, but clearly we will be interested to see what further the Home Office proposes.”
“If Mr McKinney saw what I sometimes see at meetings of the Executive, he would not put so much faith in an Executive task force. Quite seriously, there is good, close working between officials from Health and Justice, which are the two key Departments in this area. As he highlights, there are significant costs to the health-care system, as well as to the justice system, from alcohol. <BR /> <BR />Alongside other Departments, as appropriate, the important thing is to see that the strategic direction on alcohol and drugs has effect across a range of Departments and that all contribute where they can. That work is ongoing, but clearly, as we all know from the scale of the problem, there is much still to do.”
“Most recently, PCSPs played an active role in the promotion of the No Boozing on Board campaign, highlighting that it is illegal to drink alcohol on board a bus in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />My Department has also been working with health colleagues on a joint health-care and criminal justice strategy, covering the health and social care needs of significant numbers of people who come into contact with the criminal justice system.”
“Young people admitted to Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre are assessed for drug and alcohol misuse, and the appropriate services are put in place to support them. At a local level, policing and community safety partnerships (PCSPs) deliver alcohol-related initiatives, including through engagement with local drug and alcohol coordination teams.”
“Alcohol abuse contributes to a wide range of significant social problems, including criminal behaviour. I welcome the joint report from Addiction NI and the Forum for Action on Substance Abuse (FASA) that highlights the significant cost to the justice system of dealing with this issue. The actions being taken by my Department are set out in the community safety strategy and the overarching strategic framework for reducing offending. My Department is also a key contributor to the Executive's new strategic direction on alcohol and drugs, which is led by DHSSPS. <BR /> <BR />The range of actions my Department delivers includes the Alcohol and Drugs: Empowering People Through Therapy (AD:EPT) programme, which provides psychological and educational drug and alcohol programmes for offenders.”
“The position is quite clear. Matters of national security are matters for the Secretary of State. In certain respects, the PSNI and the Prison Service have responsibilities to the Secretary of State rather to me in any way. In a general sense, I receive occasional briefings from the security service alongside the briefings I receive from the PSNI about the state of organised crime and terrorist activity.”
“Mr Hussey cleverly managed to ask two questions. I will leave entirely the operational aspect of weapons and what history they may have to those charged with operational responsibility. <BR /> <BR />I have condemned all acts of terrorism in the House on many occasions before I became Minister and since. I am happy, if he wishes, to add my condemnation of the attack on the Orange hall at Keady to the list of condemnations that I have made in the past. No such attack has any place in a modern civilised society. Such attacks should be resisted by all of us. Anybody who has any information that could help to catch the perpetrators has a duty to pass that information to the PSNI, an Garda Síochána, or through Crimestoppers if they prefer.”
“I assure Mr Maginness that there is very good contact between my Department and the Department of Justice and Equality and between me and Minister Frances Fitzgerald. Some of the issues that he is hinting at are more operational issues for the PSNI and an Garda Síochána and the good work that is being done by the two prison services in cooperation. You may hear a little bit more about the fight against organised crime and terrorism later this week.”
“I congratulate Mr Weir on his inventiveness regarding the supplementary. I, as, I think, the House is well aware, commissioned a review of the operation of the 2010 agreement by the independent assessors some time ago. That review is now completed, and it will be considered by me and the Prison Service over the coming weeks. I can certainly give the House a guarantee that the situation as it prevails in Roe House and Bush House is very definitely not that which pertained years ago in the Maze prison and that, as long as I am Minister of Justice, it will not be. There are issues about ensuring the best possible use of staffing and a good regime for all prisoners, but the safety and security of prisoners and prison staff is paramount in the work that is being done.”
“It is clear that dissident republicans and dissident unionists are continuing to carry out criminal activity. This is conducted to fundraise and for personal gain, and to exert control over communities in which they operate. The activity includes drug supply; robbery, including armed robbery; extortion; operating in counterfeit goods; smuggling tobacco; and fuel laundering. It is also clear that, despite claims of public opposition to criminality and the perpetration of assaults and shootings against those allegedly involved in antisocial and criminal behaviour, dissident republicans depend on a wide range of criminal enterprises to fund their terrorist activity.”
“Mr Elliott highlights, correctly, that there is an issue about exactly what would be done. In reality, there have been a fairly limited number of referral cases up to now. If nothing else, this will ensure that, when court decisions are taken, offenders know, by and large, what the penalty is. However, it is clear that there is concern about the animal cruelty and other issues. The consultation will be fairly open-ended. If any Member wishes to highlight specific issues, I will happily hear any particular points they may wish to make. The position is that we cannot have everything referable, but it is important that we ensure that there is confidence in the law by allowing appropriate sentences in as many cases as we can manage through this process.”
“Mr Agnew is a bit enthusiastic when he asks me to give a timescale for implementation. I hope that we will have the consultation document ready by the end of this year for the Justice Committee's consideration. However, as Mr Agnew and others know, the timescale for implementation of legislation is not entirely in my hands.”
“Following a court case earlier this year, I was contacted by Naomi Long MP and a number of other public representatives. I decided to include offences under the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011 in a review of the legislation governing the referral of a sentence by the Director of Public Prosecutions to the Court of Appeal, on the grounds of undue leniency. That review is under way. Any proposals for change arising out of the review will be subject to public consultation, following the Justice Committee's consideration.”
“However, it is much more urgent for us to tackle the issues that confront this society, not just the financial issues but those that we failed to deal with at the end of last year, and start to show some leadership in this place.”
“I tend to agree with him, but I do not know that it is in exactly the way in which he would have intended, because it seems to me that, at the moment, we have a complete immaturity on economics, which is matched by an irresponsibility on some of the issues around parades and flags, and we have a group of victims from the past who are utterly let down by our failure in this place to deal with the key issues for us. It is great to talk about what the Scots have achieved, but unless we are prepared to knuckle down and engage in real and meaningful talks here to solve our problems, then we have nothing to say. <BR /> <BR />There is an issue that will need a proper constitutional convention for the UK at some point.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, it is also clear that it is a major issue for Wales and Northern Ireland. For example, we know that Wales is looking at potentially increasing its powers in the field of devolving justice and extricating itself from the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice's responsibilities. However, where are we in Northern Ireland? Unfortunately, in this place, we have a record of failure to deal with those difficult issues. We are currently running through a crisis because of our inabilities and our immaturity, so how could we possibly make a case for suggesting that we should be looking for additional powers until we seek to resolve those problems? <BR /> <BR />In his contribution, Mr McKay said that it was time that we wised up, which may or may not be parliamentary language.”
“Try the Greek rather than the Latin, gentlemen. <BR /> <BR />They are significant issues because they are those that are put to the people, rather than being determined by those in legislatures. However, we also need to be clear that the victory for the Better Together campaign was not actually a victory for unionism over nationalism. It was a victory based on the promise of devo max from the two parties in the current Westminster Government and the party that might or might not be part of or form the next Government. That, because it was devo max and not just unionism and nationalism, is what has fundamentally altered the nature of relationships within these islands in general. There is no doubt that the Prime Minister recognised that at 7.00 am on Friday when he clearly addressed the issue of the English question.”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, I echo your words of good wishes for the Speaker. <BR /> <BR />As Mr Nesbitt said, there is no doubt that the result of the Scottish referendum was a very significant event, but, by its nature, referenda or referendums, whichever way you put it, in the United Kingdom tend to be about significant matters —”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank all of those who have contributed to the second debate and to the first debate earlier today. I extend genuine thanks to the Examiner of Statutory Rules, Committee members and staff and my officials for the engagement that they had, the cooperation that was shown and, indeed, the probing that we had from Tom Elliott earlier, all of which, I believe, has contributed to ensuring that what was already good legislation is now better. As the Chair said, that is exactly the function that should be performed by the Assembly at this Stage. I commend my amendments to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Examiner made a good case for going through full affirmative procedure on all aspects when rules might be made. I am very happy with that. Similarly, I think that it is entirely appropriate that, while CJINI would have had powers over the agency, it is now explicit in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />In winding up, I want to remind Mr Maginness that, while it is agreed that any panel will be chaired by a lawyer, that does not exclude lawyers applying for the other places. There is no doubt that, given the abilities and knowledge that lawyers would bring to such a public appointment process, they may feature well in that. However, they will not be specifically required by statute to have other positions beyond that of the chair.”
“After such a lengthy debate, I shall not take long to respond to the House. Sadly, we did not have the Elliott fireworks this afternoon that we had earlier in the day, but it is always a pleasure to find that most of what we are doing can get agreement through the detailed work that is done during the Committee Stage and Consideration Stage. I do not need to repeat the points that I made earlier. I believe that, by listening to what was said by the Examiner of Statutory Rules, we have improved the functioning of the Bill to ensure that the Assembly will have full scrutiny powers. <BR /> <BR />Mr Maginness said that the Committee Chair was a little ungracious. Of course, Members of this House being a little ungracious is always preferable to those Members of the House who are always completely ungracious. I am grateful for that.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend the amendments to the House.”
“However, on further consideration, I concluded that it is preferable to amend the relevant provision; namely, section 46(1)(hb) of the 2002 Act, so as to substitute the Legal Services Agency Northern Ireland in place of the current reference to the Legal Services Commission. That would give CJINI an express power to inspect the new agency. The role played by CJINI in inspecting criminal justice agencies is an important one. <BR /> <BR />Agreeing to amendment Nos 14 to 18 and 20 will ensure that all rules made under the new article 36A, 36B, 38A and 20A provisions will be subject to the draft affirmative resolution procedure on the first and subsequent exercises of the power. Agreeing to amendment Nos 21 and 22 will put it beyond doubt that the new agency will benefit from CJINI's expertise.”
“In the light of the Examiner's advice and the Committee's approval, I would welcome Members' support for the amendments. <BR /> <BR />I will now turn to amendment Nos 21 and 22. Section 46(1) of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002, which sets out the organisations that are subject to inspection by Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland, includes powers to inspect the Northern Ireland Legal Services Commission. As introduced, the Bill provided simply for the repeal of section 46(1)(hb), reflecting the dissolution of the commission. On that basis, the new agency would automatically have come within the ambit of CJINI, which has power to inspect the Department of Justice in so far as it is concerned with the operation of the criminal courts.”
“The Examiner of Statutory Rules advised that those were significant powers in their own right and that there should be no change from the position set out in the 2003 order; namely, that those pieces of secondary legislation that are subject to the draft affirmative resolution procedure should be subject to that procedure on the first and subsequent exercises of the power. <BR /> <BR />Mindful of the respective roles of the Committee and the Assembly in the management of the Assembly's full secondary legislative programme, I agreed to accept the Examiner of Statutory Rules' advice if the Committee was content. The Committee noted the position at its informal clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill and subsequently confirmed, in its report on the Bill, that it supported the Examiner's advice.”
“<BR /> <BR />The rule-making powers referred to relate to the assignment of solicitor and counsel; the establishment of a register of solicitors and counsel eligible to be assigned; the restriction of disclosure of information, which all relate to representation provided in criminal cases under the Legal Aid, Advice and Assistance (Northern Ireland) Order 1981; and the setting-up of appeals panels to deal with appeals regarding applications for civil legal services under the Access to Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2003.”
“This group relates to the Assembly's control mechanism for the making of statutory rules under the new rule-making powers in schedule 2 to the Bill, and there are two technical amendments to explicitly include the proposed Legal Services Agency within the ambit of Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI). <BR /> <BR />I will turn first to the amendments to schedule 2. During the Justice Committee's scrutiny of the Bill, the Examiner of Statutory Rules queried why four rule-making powers in the Bill should be subject to the draft affirmative resolution procedure on first exercise and negative resolution thereafter.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way — I am trying not to jump up and down all the time. My point in response to Mr Elliott is quite simple. He says that I am not giving a guarantee of an external appointment process. My advice is that his amendment would not create that situation either. Therefore, an amendment that adds confusion but does not produce his desired result does not seem to me to add any benefit to the Bill.”
“Sorry, I thought that I had made it clear that I appreciated Mr Elliott’s intentions. I am happy to repeat that, if he did not hear it first time.”