David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“This appears to provide a realistic alternative to the existing approach, and, in order to ensure that we draw out any concerns, I plan to consult specifically on this issue at the same time as consulting more generally on the report. That will ensure that we have a firm basis to proceed with a reform that will save money and improve access to justice. <BR /> <BR />The report makes a number of recommendations on improving the efficiency of criminal proceedings. I plan to take the views of the Lord Chief Justice on those matters. I meet him regularly, and I expect the report will be a regular focus of future meetings.”
“<BR /> <BR />As I have highlighted previously, significant progress has already been made in delivering reforms of many aspects of the justice system. This reform programme will continue. Where there are issues of commonality between current reforms and recommendations in the report, I will reflect on the analysis in the report as I take forward the reforms. <BR /> <BR />On alternative funding arrangements for money damages cases, the report recommends a new approach that would enable the majority of cases currently supported by legal aid to proceed without that support. It is based on a conditional fee agreement with appropriate safeguards to prevent increased costs.”
“With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 4, 5 and 14 together. <BR /> <BR />Last week, I announced to the House that I welcomed the access to justice review part II report and that the publication of the report would begin a consultation period that would close on 9 February next year. The report has some 150 wide-ranging recommendations, and I hope that those with an interest in improving the justice system and the experience of those who come into contact with it will take the opportunity to comment on the report. I hope to return to the Assembly before the end of the current mandate to outline my proposed response to the report by setting out thematically the priorities that will drive the future reform agenda.”
“There is no doubt that, as we look generally at the way in which the clinics have operated, we see that they have built on the past successes of the Youth Justice Agency. We are seeing improvements, and we will see the proper evaluation when we get the CJINI report in the near future. I will look to it for full evidence.”
“I thank Ms McCorley for her support. In a sense, it is slightly early, given that the pilot scheme has been running only in part of Belfast for any length of time and the wider roll-out was from April 2015. We need to be slightly careful. We do not have a full statistical basis, but there seems to be evidence from practitioners and from some young people who are participants that the arrangements have helped to create the joined-up response that has helped them to see their way to a better future and to manage their behaviour so that it does not lead to future offending. The benefits that that provides to young people and to those who might otherwise have become victims is to be welcomed.”
“I thank Ms Lo for her question. The key issue is the scoping study now looking into the whole operation of youth justice. We need to ensure that we build on the successes of the youth engagement model and continue to see how we can do it to streamline and simplify the system. That is what youth engagement clinics are about. That is what we expect to see followed up in the final report that is being prepared on that work by Criminal Justice Inspection. As we look into the scoping study on how we can make further improvements in the future, I think that there will be continued improvement in the speed with which cases are disposed of and in appropriate measures being adopted for individual offenders. We hope to see significant improvements for society on the back of that.”
“There is clear evidence that the more we can do to prevent young people entering the system in the first place or to divert them from more formal disposals, the better their long-term outcomes.”
“That includes explaining the consequences of accepting a diversionary or court-ordered disposal and how that might affect them in the future. <BR /> <BR />Participation in the clinics has allowed young people to take responsibility for and understand the consequences of their actions and to get appropriate support to address the underlying causes of their offending behaviour. That approach of supporting children at the earliest stage to address problems that could lead to further offending or risk-taking behaviour is a key element of the scoping study that I commissioned to improve outcomes for children in or on the fringes of the youth justice system.”
“Following the initial pilot across three police districts in Belfast, youth engagement clinics were rolled out across all districts in Northern Ireland over 2014-15, becoming fully operational in April of this year. I took that decision following a positive evaluation of the pilot, which demonstrated a number of benefits for children and young people. It is clear that youth cases that are dealt with at clinics are resolved far more quickly than those that progress to court, meaning that the negative consequences of delay in our system for victims and offenders can be reduced. <BR /> <BR />Youth engagement clinics can help young people make better-informed decisions about their options at an early stage by providing advice and support in a language and setting that is appropriate to their age and level of understanding.”
“That would show a significant improvement, particularly for those engaged in different areas of voluntary work or a number of short-term periods of employment who need to see that opportunity coming through. Frankly, it cannot happen too soon, in view of the complaints that people still have.”
“Mr McCarthy highlights an ongoing challenge. A lot of work has been done, and I hope that we will have the full portability of checks at some point during the next calendar year. It is something that is very disappointing, because that was under way when I became Minister, just over five years ago. Changes were then made by the Home Office for England and Wales that had further knock-on effects for us, but we are looking to see portable checks introduced as quickly as possible. The idea of a portable check, which could be checked online any number of times that people needed, would be significantly better than the current system, which is effectively still a paper-based system, even though it is carried out online.”
“Those are the applications that have, in some cases, taken a very considerable time, but, in the past few months, we have seen a significant improvement there as well.”
“Ms Hanna asks a very reasonable question, which is, of course, simple to answer: people who get good service from Access NI do not contact their MLA to complain about it. The tens of thousands of checks that go through reasonably speedily go through, and people are happy. Some of them say, "Thank you" to Access NI, but most people accept that that is what they should expect from a public service. In September, for example, 95% of enhanced certificates were processed within 14 days of receipt of the application, while over 98% were processed within 28 days. We are talking about the small minority of cases, which, overwhelmingly, are those that require further checks by the police — the PSNI or another police service.”
“It is a pleasure to welcome Mr Lyons to a Justice Question Time. His predecessor Mr Wilson tended to be fairly critical of Access NI, so I have logged the praise for Access NI today. I will give him one specific further statistic: the number of cases that have been with the police for over 60 days for check was 789 in June and 128 last week. Clearly, there will always be cases that need to be checked in some detail by the police, but that shows a very significant turnaround by the police in their role, Access NI staff in their role and the enhanced IT system. I will certainly keep an eye on it as he has asked.”
“The average time to process an enhanced Access NI check was 19 days in 2013-14, 16 days in 2014-15 and eight days for the first half of 2015-16. With the introduction in April of online applications, there have been significant improvements in Access NI turnaround times. In addition, the PSNI has recently reviewed and improved the processes for dealing with the enhanced checks that are referred to them. This has resulted in a 70% reduction in the backlog of Access NI checks with the police over the past three months.”
“It is the same when you visit the new cafe. We have heard a lot about the success of the Cabin Cafe in Hydebank Wood; there is now a very similar arrangement for the Riverbank Cafe in Maghaberry. All of that is symptomatic of the governor and his management team working with staff to ensure better conditions for staff and prisoners.”
“I pointed out last week — I cannot remember whether it was in response to Mr Dickson's question on the statement — that I hoped that more members of the Justice Committee would get the opportunity to visit. I believe from my most recent visit, which was three weeks ago, that there have been very significant changes, including much reduced sickness rates and, therefore, better numbers of staff on the landings. There is positive work being done. For example, on that occasion, I saw people engaged in what was essentially public service work in doing Braille booklets. They were working through their lunch break with a prison officer who was working through his lunch break because they wanted to get a job done for the benefit of somebody outside. That seems to me symptomatic of the spirit of many of the people in there.”
“I certainly agree with Mr Beggs that the issue of staff morale is important and significant. I have not specifically discussed with the Secretary of State any change to the separated regime. That is her responsibility. She has not made any proposals to me to change it either. The reality is that we are in a situation where separation was granted by a previous Secretary of State, and that is what we have to work with.”
“I am not sure that I have ever used the term "dissidents" to refer to any member of prison staff, but I did say earlier that there are clearly members of prison staff who find the change to the new arrangements more difficult than others. Some who had served for long periods in difficult times took advantage of the early retirement scheme. Others remain, many of whom are playing very positive roles in the current operation of the Prison Service, but some are having difficulty adjusting to that.”
“Mr Ramsey has indirectly highlighted one of the unfortunate consequences. I have heard it reported in the media that the report said that Maghaberry was the most dangerous prison in Europe. It said no such thing. Comments from the chief inspector of prisons from England at his press conference went beyond the considered opinion of that report. They certainly were not the comments of the chief inspector of criminal justice. The Member is absolutely right that it is important that we ensure the safety of staff and prisoners. It is a fact that we are by no means the worst regime in these islands in providing safety in the Northern Ireland Prison Service, but there has to be ongoing, serious work and engagement by prison staff at the highest level to ensure that that is maintained. That is their daily task.”
“I am happy to agree with Mr Boylan, but I am not sure that it would necessarily be suggested that, in a team of four equals, Peter Bunting was the leader — although, undoubtedly, he would be one of the co-leaders. Mr Boylan is absolutely right: the 2010 agreement provided the opportunities to move forward, but it appears that dissident supporters outside and dissidents inside have not played their part.”
“If we are to make progress, it is important that those threats are removed and that prison officers are able to go to work without facing threats, either internally or when they leave afterwards.”
“The point is made very clearly by Mr McIlveen. It is a point that I have made before. I said in my key answer that the threat against individual officers and police officers remains severe. There is no doubt that it creates very difficult working conditions. It is unfortunate that, in the particular context of the separated republican prisoners, the agreement that was made in August 2010, which was predicated on changes in the regime in Roe House, balanced against an end of threats to prison officers, has not been matched by an ending of threats, whether delivered, at times, inside Roe House or by supporters of the dissident prisoners through websites and various other social media.”
“If capital funding is forthcoming, I will be very keen to see that happen as soon as possible.”
“Mr Allister raises an entirely reasonable point. The decision to introduce separation was taken by a former Secretary of State some years ago. Decisions on who is admitted to separated conditions are for the Secretary of State and not the devolved Minister. The Department of Justice and the Prison Service has to run the prison on the basis that there are two separated houses. <BR /> <BR />As part of the reform programme, it is proposed to reconfigure Maghaberry into three mini prisons, which would separate, if that is not an unfortunate use of the term, those who are category A prisoners, whether they are normal category A prisoners or those from the two groups of separated prisoners. That would ensure that it is easier to deal with their needs separate from those of the main bulk of the prison population.”
“When I spoke about the report last week, I highlighted that I believe that we have good leadership in place, at prison headquarters and within Maghaberry, and very good cooperation between the governor and the headquarters team. So, we have now got leadership. There is no doubt that, as we have proceeded through the reform programme, some people have had more difficulty adjusting to it than others. We are seeing a team working together at Maghaberry under the leadership of the governor in conjunction with the work being done by NIPS headquarters and the Department.”
“Any threats to others, including contractors, are a matter for the PSNI, and there are arrangements in place to share information in that respect. In that context, I am very encouraged that over 1,700 people applied in the recent Prison Service recruitment campaign. Those individuals have an opportunity to play their part in building a safer community.”
“In the six months since the inspection, the Prison Service has taken action to improve the immediate performance of Maghaberry to ensure that the prison is delivering better outcomes for prisoners and is playing its part in building a safer Northern Ireland. I am confident that, when the inspectors return in January, they will see significant improvement. <BR /> <BR />It is important to reinforce that the context in which Maghaberry operates is not the same as that for any prison in neighbouring jurisdictions. Prison officers are under severe threat, which means that an attack is highly likely. NIPS has effective mechanisms in place to disseminate information relating to threats, and staff are fully supported when security concerns are raised.”
“This has been addressed through robust management of attendance, recruitment and redeployment from other prisons. Since August, sickness levels have fallen sharply, which means more officers on the landings and a more progressive regime. <BR /> <BR />The director general of the Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) has already taken steps to strengthen the leadership team at Maghaberry, including the appointment of Phil Wragg as governor. NIPS has developed a detailed action plan to address each of the strategic recommendations contained in the report. That has been published on the NIPS website so that the service can be held to account against that plan. What is important now is that the right leadership team is in place.”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, with your permission, I will take questions 1, 6 and 7 together. I apologise because that may make my answer slightly longer than usual. <BR /> <BR />Maghaberry is a challenging and complex high-security prison and this report demonstrates that. The progress that the prison made in 2012 continued through to 2014 against a backdrop of experienced staff leaving under the voluntary exit scheme and new staff coming in. The prison has faced three key challenges: resourcing, building a consistent regime and delivering outcomes for prisoners. <BR /> <BR />The report from the visit in May demonstrated that Maghaberry had been greatly affected by staff absence, which had had a serious impact on the regime and outcomes for prisoners.”
“Whether it is in French, German, English or Irish, the message has to be of solidarity in the face of those who would carry out such terror, and a unity of purpose that we will protect human life and human dignity, wherever the threat comes from.”
“Friday was a direct attack, not on any perceived justifiable target, not even in the twisted sense that would have justified the attack on 'Charlie Hebdo' earlier this year, but on ordinary people — Parisians, others from throughout France, visitors — engaging in what people throughout Europe engage in on a Friday night, the opportunity to go out with friends and enjoy themselves with whatever entertainment they wish. That is why it has so devastated so many people; that is why it has affected people so strongly in what that meant. That is the reason why we must ensure that we do not have just words but that we stand together in practical solidarity with our French neighbours, whatever language we speak and whatever way we express it.”
“It is one of the ironies of this weekend that, in 1940, and, indeed, again in 1944, Paris was declared an open city, so that not only the architecture but the people were left undisturbed in the opening and closing phases of the Second World War. It is a further irony that a friendly football match was being played in the Stade de France between France and Germany. That is an indication of where we in Europe have moved on in recent years, but where there clearly are challenges from those who do not accept the fundamental principles of human life and welfare that we do.”
“It is a business partner, a partner in times of difficulty and a partner in terms of where many of us first had our opportunities to experience life in a different culture. So it is felt particularly sensitively by people throughout these islands when they see the atrocities that happened in Paris — somewhere that people can associate with holidays and times of great pleasure for themselves.”
“On behalf of my colleagues, I associate ourselves with remarks already made in the Chamber. I thank you, Mr Speaker, for your initiative earlier today in arranging the opportunity for not just Members but staff and visitors to show their solidarity to the people of Paris and France in the wake of the multiple atrocities that happened last Friday evening. Of course, as has just been said, we should not forget the similar atrocity that happened in Beirut, the ongoing challenge posed by the atrocities being perpetrated daily in Iraq and Syria by ISIS, and similar actions that happened in relatively recent times across the Middle East and north Africa, particularly in Kenya and Nigeria. <BR /> <BR />France is one of our closest neighbours geographically. It is a partner and has been an ally.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also know that action is being taken in Maghaberry prison by the senior leadership team to address the points made and to carry through the action plan that was published last week to ensure that Maghaberry becomes safer; has more purposeful activity; has proper staffing numbers providing a proper regime for prisoners; and has that kind of regularity available so that staff are less concerned. All of that is work that is currently under way and is being carried out by a leadership team that is out there, walking the landings, engaging with staff and providing the support that they need.”
“Actually, we do not know that it is the most dangerous prison in the United Kingdom. Unfortunately, Lord Morrow was not in the Chamber for the early part of my statement. It is quite clear that, although some of the media coverage has attracted hyperbole, there are prisons elsewhere in the United Kingdom that have suffered greater numbers of, for example, deaths in custody than Maghaberry has. <BR /> <BR />What we do know is that Maghaberry is the most complex prison in the United Kingdom. We know that, in Northern Ireland, difficult category A prisoners cannot be dispersed but are all concentrated in one prison. We know that other prisons in the United Kingdom do not have to manage two sets of separated prisoners.”
“I note that Mr Allister has adopted his customary positive and constructive attitude to these things. The simple question is this: on what basis should a Minister resign when action is being taken to redress failings highlighted in a report by people running a particular service? That action is being taken at the appropriate level, with full support from the Minister.”
“I do not bring palmed-off responses. I have already said that an action plan has been prepared. It has been publicised, and there are opportunities for the Justice Committee in particular to follow through on it. Some people want instant, easy answers to the extremely complex problems that have beset the Prison Service for many years, even when we are seeing significant reforms and have seen significant improvements, even in the past few months. It is not a realistic way of looking at things.”
“I appreciate the point that Mr Dallat has been making about the concerns of one individual. I need to be careful as to what exactly is the appropriate role of a Minister, as opposed to the formal structures, in HR management. Nonetheless, I take extremely seriously the suggestions that he has made and will ensure that they are followed up at an appropriate level.”
“The suggestion that anybody in the Prison Service or Department of Justice is appeasing such people is utter nonsense and unworthy of a response.”
“I am not sure which of those several questions I am expected to respond to. I made it quite clear in my response to Mr Poots, when he used terms such as "scapegoat", that I was not scapegoating. I will make one very specific point. If Mr Givan is suggesting that transferring senior civil servants from one post to another is somehow illegal, he may wish to take legal advice, which is something that he does not seem to have had. <BR /> <BR />Moreover, by using the phrase "litany of failures", he fails to recognise the good work that is being done across the Prison Service in response to the PRT report, as part of a huge transformation project. It is clear that he is much more concerned about flying his kite by raising concerns about Maghaberry than recognising the reality of what is happening generally.”
“Members can be assured that that oversight group has worked extremely well and is close to completing its task in a way which provides the guarantee which can be provided for us and for the people of Northern Ireland.”
“At the most recent meeting of the oversight group that I had, I was certainly impressed by the fact that the two independent members, with no formal role otherwise, were robustly questioning both CJINI and RQIA, particularly RQIA, as to the quality of some of the reporting that was done to ensure that matters were properly in place before they were signed off. It is not a matter of a ministerial-led group signing off; it is a matter that is very much in the hands of the independent members who are there, giving a robust challenge function, recognising progress where it happens, but also clearly stating where they believe that adequate progress has not happened.”
“The answer to my colleague is that we can have considerable confidence in the oversight group, in particular in the presence of three independent members. Patricia Gordon and Monica McWilliams are not known for giving Ministers or their teams an easy ride if they do not believe it is deserved. Brendan McGuigan, head of CJINI is also a member of the oversight group. <BR /> <BR />I should perhaps explain the procedure of the oversight group. It meets quarterly and receives reports from the Prison Service, or from the South Eastern Trust, as appropriate, relating to the healthcare recommendations of the prison review team (PRT). It determines whether those reports are good enough to be passed on for validation by either CJINI or RQIA, and then their report comes to a future meeting to decide whether something can be signed off.”
“I have been in position for over five years, not over six. I do not appoint civil servants; there are procedures by which they are appointed which do not involve Ministers. Sue McAllister may be many things, but she is certainly not an Englishman. The leadership team is not detached; the leadership that I see being given by Phil Wragg and his senior colleagues is absolutely attached to what is going on in the prison. There is no issue of scapegoating. The issue is of reflecting the appropriate need to ensure that leadership is provided to deal with the problems of Maghaberry, which was not being provided. That is why we have seen the improvement that I have already highlighted in a number of areas, such as sickness absence.”
“A monitoring group is looking at those issues in Maghaberry, alongside the request for assistance from the Equality Commission. The group meets on a monthly basis. We will need to see just how that works to ensure that things like adjudications do not have a detrimental effect on people from one particular background. At this stage, the answers are not clear and that has been acknowledged, by Brendan McGuigan in particular, as an issue which needs further action but on which there are no easy answers.”
“I appreciate Mr McGlone's question. It is indeed a significant issue, and one that has not just arisen recently. That is why the advice has been sought from the Equality Commission. As far as I am aware, no other advice has been sought from other agencies at this point. The important issue will be to take the advice of the Equality Commission and see how it applies across all the aspects of the Prison Service, including the work being done around learning and skills and health, to ensure that we get proper outcomes for all prisoners.”
“If we could get a bit of Executive joined-up leadership around a capital programme, we would be in an even better position.”
“I thank the Deputy Chair for his question and, indeed, for his support for the reform programme and his positive comments on aspects of it over the last day or two. If he is right that this report highlighted a failure of leadership, which is what it cites, then I am confident that the leadership that is currently in Maghaberry is significantly stronger than the leadership that was there in the month of May. I am confident that the leadership in prison headquarters is aware of the problems and, working with Maghaberry leadership, is taking robust action to deal with them. I am confident that the poor relationships that existed in May no longer exist and that the Department is backing the Prison Service management in carrying out its essential work.”