David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“I made it perfectly clear what the long-term options were, but if DUP Members wish to continue repeating slander and smears against me, I will continue to respond with the truth, which appears to upset them.”
“It looks like Mr Poots does not listen, but then again, he was not in at the start of the statement, Mr Deputy Speaker. There is no laissez-faire, never mind "lassey-faire" attitude in the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice is allowing the relevant justice agencies to carry out their duties, and it is examining the scope for further inquiries in conjunction with our colleagues in the Department of Justice and Equality, because that is the appropriate and responsible way for Ministers to behave. They should not interfere with the work that needs to be done to deal with criminal offences and allegations of criminal offences.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Mr Allister makes a point about what may be known by some people, but the reality is that the Department of Justice does not conduct criminal investigations; the PSNI and an Garda Síochána do.”
“Clearly, the justice agencies are prioritising, and they are seeking to ensure that resources are directed to the most important issues, but there can be no guarantee that there will not be some potential effect from the cuts that are being imposed.”
“Sadly, Mr Deputy Speaker, I can give no guarantee whatsoever about the ongoing work of the justice system not being hampered by budget cuts. Members will be aware of recent announcements by various justice agencies, which are looking at what the effect of cuts being imposed on my Department amount to, and, in the context in which the police are having to cut back on historical work, where the ombudsman has a small reduction in budget, and where the Public Prosecution Service, though not directly funded through my Department, has cuts, it is not possible to say whether this work will or will not be done.”
“It needs to be done right, if it is to be done, and we need to ensure that the ongoing work of the justice agencies to catch perpetrators, to prosecute them and to protect victims is not impeded by any grandstanding in this place.”
“I have to agree with Mr Maginness's point. As I understand it, investigations are at a relatively early stage on both sides of the border. For example, I know that Regina Doherty TD has presented a number of names to an Garda Síochána. Some allegations have been made that are being considered by the PSNI, and we are all well aware of the ombudsman's inquiry and the review that is being carried out on behalf of the DPP. Those issues have to be addressed before we can properly tease out the potential for cross-border inquiry. There is also the quite serious issue that it might well require primary legislation in the Oireachtas, here and, potentially, Westminster. So, this is not something that could be done easily.”
“There seems to be a bit of a pattern coming up, Deputy Speaker: lines like "the Minister failed to act", when the Minister has been supportive of the relevant agencies carrying out their duties; has indicated that he will see what follows from that and what might be suitable for a wider inquiry; and has, because it is a cross-border issue, discussed it in phone calls and in two specific face-to-face meetings with the Irish Minister. It may suit cheap lines from the DUP Benches, but it is simply not factual.”
“I appreciate Mr McCartney's point, but there is little that I can add. I have certainly been in correspondence with Norman Baker and Lynne Featherstone, the two responsible Home Office Ministers. I have been supplied with a copy of their report, and my officials have looked through it in detail and engaged with Home Office officials. It certainly seems that there are strong lessons to be learned from the Irish approach. It has had significant successes across the border, and I hope that it will be followed up on by the Home Office. However, beyond using our influence, there is little that we can do on a matter that is still technically reserved.”
“The key thing will be for the Home Office to act, and we will certainly use our influence to get a joined-up system across these islands where possible.”
“Mr Bradley raises an entirely reasonable question, although the answer to it is that, since the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 is a reserved matter and not a devolved matter, there is little that we can do directly. However, it is important that we use our influence in the conversations that I and officials have been having with the Home Office to ensure that it learns the lessons of international best practice, including, in particular, the recommendations that were made to its own inquiry to look at the Irish example. It is clear that there have been significant successes in closing down head shops across the Republic, and we should certainly learn from that. At the same time, we should also recognise the good work that has been done by environmental health officers in this jurisdiction.”
“I certainly agree with Mr Lynch that any inquiry must cover whatever allegations may come forward. At the moment, it seems to me that only one set of allegations is being made. As I understand it, only one set of criminal investigations is being carried out to investigate allegations made against certain republican paramilitaries.”
“Mr Givan may talk about U-turns as much as he likes. If he actually listened to what was said, he would realise that there is no U-turn whatsoever. If he wants to be serious and talk about ensuring that the work being done is not cut across — I think that that was the precise phrase that he used — I am committed to ensuring that the work being done at the moment — the review by the Police Ombudsman, the review commissioned by the Director of Public Prosecutions and being carried out on his behalf by Keir Starmer QC and the ongoing work of investigating further complaints being made to the PSNI and an Garda Síochána — will continue. We will then see what appropriate work may follow.”
“I have consistently said that the first and most important issue is to ensure that criminal investigations, North and South, are not hampered and that I was open to seeing what might follow after those investigations were completed. That is exactly what I have said from the very beginning, and that is what Frances Fitzgerald and I said at the IGA meeting. That is what I repeated in Armagh last Friday.”
“I do not think that the Committee Chairperson can welcome a U-turn, because there has been no U-turn.”
“In conclusion, the intergovernmental agreement provides an extremely helpful framework for supporting North/South cooperation on criminal justice matters. I am pleased to report that there remains good progress in enhancing and promoting further the development of North/South cooperation to make the whole island of Ireland a safer and better place for all our people, particularly protecting our children and the most vulnerable in our society. It is this that the Irish Justice Minister, Frances Fitzgerald, and I are fully committed to securing.”
“Minister Fitzgerald and I plan to meet again in January to assess progress.”
“Frances Fitzgerald and I have indicated that a scoping exercise will examine the legal, procedural and constitutional complexities to be considered. To reiterate what I said on Friday:”
“The information is being investigated, and, again, we emphasised the importance of anyone who has relevant information making it known to the authorities in our respective jurisdictions. <BR /> <BR />Whilst, in the first instance, we were anxious not to take any action that would interfere in any way with ongoing investigations, we agreed to continue to consider what further measures might be taken jointly to address the issue. We did that again last Friday when we met before the NSMC meeting in Armagh. Government officials in DOJ and DJE have begun to assess issues that might arise relevant to the establishment of an inquiry.”
“Given recent allegations about the sexual abuse of children, Frances Fitzgerald and I underscored at our meeting the importance of victims, or those with any information, coming forward to report such crimes to the relevant authorities, particularly if they have concerns about children who may be at risk. <BR /> <BR />Following on from our earlier contacts, we discussed the very disturbing allegations about the cover-up of sexual abuse by paramilitary organisations. A key concern is that abusers were seemingly allowed to remain in communities or were moved to communities where their activities were unknown to the authorities, and the normal measures could not be taken to protect children. We welcomed the fact that people are making information available.”
“<BR /> <BR />I used the opportunity on 21 November to advise Frances Fitzgerald of the recent publication by the Home Office of the expert panel's report on new psychoactive substances, more commonly known as legal highs. Whilst noting that the Home Office leads in the area, I nevertheless stated that my officials and I would be keen to learn from the approach and legislative response taken in Ireland to that complex issue. <BR /> <BR />I also advised the Irish Justice Minister about the recent publication of the inquiry report into child sexual exploitation in Northern Ireland. Welcoming the inquiry report, which was produced by Professor Kathleen Marshall, I informed Frances Fitzgerald and her officials that I, along with colleagues in the justice system, will consider carefully the report and its recommendations.”
“Having addressed the previous four annual seminars, I was very pleased to join Frances Fitzgerald in opening the fifth. <BR /> <BR />Six project advisory groups provide the mechanism by which the work of the IGA is taken forward. They focus on the areas of public protection, registered offenders, youth justice, forensic science, support for victims of crime and social diversity. Each of the project advisory groups has continued to promote and support cooperation across the broad spectrum of criminal justice agencies on both sides of the border. On the management of sex offenders, for example, there continues to be excellent cooperation between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána at an operational level.”
“It is my intention to report more fully on progress against the current work programme following the next IGA meeting with the Irish Justice Minister, which is scheduled to take place in Northern Ireland before next summer. In the meantime, progress against the work programme actions will be monitored by the working group of officials. <BR /> <BR />One action that arose from the 2014-15 work programme was the organisation of the fifth annual joint public protection seminar, which was held in Dublin on the same day as our meeting. The theme of the seminar was working with and in communities. It provided the opportunity for professionals from various justice agencies to discuss a number of key topics, and volume 11 of the 'Irish Probation Journal' was launched.”
“<BR /> <BR />Meanwhile, through the work of the support for victims project advisory group, valuable discussions have been ongoing between officials in my Department and officials in the Department of Justice and Equality (DJE) as preparations continue in both jurisdictions towards implementation of the European victims directive in November 2015. <BR /> <BR />Under the guidance of the youth justice project advisory group, the PSNI and An Garda Síochána have begun to examine the potential for cooperation on juvenile offenders who are on diversion programmes. <BR /> <BR />Those are just some of the examples that demonstrate the embedded cooperation ongoing between the criminal justice agencies, North and South.”
“Members will recall that I shared a copy of the joint work programme on 16 September following my meeting with Frances Fitzgerald on 27 June, at which the programme was agreed. <BR /> <BR />It was pleasing to note the progress that has been made: for example, a draft strategy and action plan has been developed to enhance and optimise forensic science partnership between the respective services in Northern Ireland, Ireland and Scotland. <BR /> <BR />The sharing of information between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána progressed in the form of a best practices document in July, covering policing in partnership with diverse communities.”
“With permission, I wish to make a statement regarding a meeting under the auspices of the intergovernmental agreement (IGA) on cooperation on criminal justice matters, held in Dublin on Friday 21 November. I represented the Executive at the meeting, which was hosted by Frances Fitzgerald TD, Minister for Justice and Equality. <BR /> <BR />This was the ninth formal ministerial meeting under the IGA since the devolution of justice in April 2010. As I have said in statements to the House, I am committed to keeping the Assembly informed of meetings held under the auspices of the agreement on the same basis as North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meetings. The meeting on 21 November provided us both with an opportunity to review early progress against the joint work programme for 2014-15, which will run through to the summer of 2015.”
“I think that we can, therefore, have a degree of confidence in the proposals, especially as we abolished the post of Northern Ireland rapporteur last week. On that basis, I commend all three sections of the LCM to the House.”
“I was going to say, in summing up, that I am grateful for the extremely kind remarks that Lord Morrow has made because, as I have said on previous occasions, he wanted to see the colour of the Home Office's money before he withdrew his proposals for a Northern Ireland rapporteur. He was quite right in that, but I believe that the good work done by my officials — I claim some small credit for that myself — meant that the Home Secretary significantly modified her proposals to the extent that we will see a valid, UK-wide role that will mean that Scotland and Northern Ireland will benefit from the work of the commissioner. From my contacts with Kevin Hyland already, I believe that he intends to carry that through.”
“Sorry, I will let Lord Morrow heckle me more loudly, as I missed that.”
“There is currently no restriction on what we might seek to ask in that respect, save for the fact that I am conscious of Lord Morrow's kind references to the budget of the DOJ: if we commission additional reports for Northern Ireland, the DOJ will pay for them, so we will not necessarily be able to commission that much.”
“I have no doubt from my contacts with the Department of Justice and Equality in Dublin that it will be keen that its officials cooperate with him as well. <BR /> <BR />Lord Morrow also asked what kind of reports I expect. I think that that will be the interesting point as we see the work done by officials from the Organised Crime Task Force and by the DOJ's engagement group, which is comprised predominantly of NGOs with concerns about human trafficking and modern slavery. As to what kind of reports we collectively wish to commission from him with particular regard to Northern Ireland as well as the wider reports that he is preparing for us, that is an open question.”
“However, he has indicated his willingness to be involved, and, as I said earlier, he will take part in the cross-border conference due to take place next month. <BR /> <BR />To some extent, that answers the third question raised by Lord Morrow: the commissioner is fully aware, from his previous role in the Metropolitan Police, of the importance of the entire bundle of relationships within these islands, and he is fully aware of the cross-border issues that we have that other regions of the UK do not have. I think that he will certainly be prepared to ensure that he follows those through. The fact that he has the power to cooperate with organisations outside the UK is of significant benefit.”
“It may not be everything that we would want, but I believe that we now have the opportunities to use the independent commissioner in Northern Ireland in a way that will enhance our fight against slavery and human trafficking. <BR /> <BR />As to the three questions that Lord Morrow asked on that, I am not sure whether he expected me to have the answers on the hoof, but I will try. He asked how often I expect to see the Anti-slavery Commissioner in Northern Ireland, and the answer is this: as often as is reasonable. The commissioner was prepared to travel here last week. It turned out that the only group that he would have met comprised officials from the DOJ and me, so I thought that a phone call was more appropriate than asking him to jump on a plane.”
“I have no doubt that he will follow that through, whether in this place or in another place. <BR /> <BR />The key issue that raised interest was the matter of the Anti-slavery Commissioner and the role of the independent commissioner in Northern Ireland. I am grateful to Mr McCartney for the way in which he explained his party's previous support for the concept of a Northern Ireland rapporteur, but his willingness to accept that the significant concessions that we achieved in discussions with the Home Office, as highlighted by Lord Morrow, have made for a much better arrangement than was originally proposed, is welcome. Certainly, when I saw the first draft of the proposals from the Home Office, I saw that what was there would have been unacceptable.”
“Apart from the comments just made by Mr Dickson, very little reference was made to the issue of enforcement powers at sea. I take it, therefore, that we are fully agreed on that. Transparency in supply chains has attracted relatively little debate, yet it is of significant concern to a number of our NGO partners. Specifically on that point, I cannot give Lord Morrow any idea of the number of businesses among the UK's thousand largest that we currently believe would be affected, but the answer to the question that he did not ask, which was how many operate exclusively in Northern Ireland, is, we believe, probably none. It is therefore entirely appropriate that we link in to the UK-wide arrangements for that. However, as we see how the regulations develop, we will know exactly the answer to that question.”
“I thank the Members who contributed to the debate. I suspect that it is more than a coincidence that, as Lord Morrow reminded us, we have the Final Stage of his private Member's Bill tomorrow. We will debate the fine detail of that Bill tomorrow, but I have no doubt that he is right in principle when he says that, with the Modern Slavery Bill, we are getting the best of both worlds: cooperating with the other UK jurisdictions when it is appropriate and going beyond that for something better, whilst we might not entirely agree on the definition of "better" in this place.”
“The Home Office has also been engaging with the business sector, and there is broad support for the measure. Given the large size of the companies that will be affected by the clause, it is likely that very few will be operating here that are not also operating in the other UK jurisdictions. Thus I believe that a UK-wide response would be the most effective and appropriate way to legislate on the issue, so I am keen to see the provision extend to Northern Ireland. I trust the House will support it. <BR /> <BR />I am confident that, taken together, the three provisions will further strengthen the response to modern slavery and human trafficking in this jurisdiction in conjunction with the proposals before the House in Lord Morrow's human trafficking Bill. I, therefore, seek the Assembly’s support for the LCM.”
“The slavery and human trafficking statement would set out the steps that the organisation had taken in the financial year to ensure that its business and its supply chains were free of human trafficking and slavery, or, where no such steps have been taken, there would be a statement that the organisation had not taken any such steps. I have no doubt that public pressure would then come into play. Once businesses are required to disclose what they do to tackle human trafficking and slavery, consumers and campaigners across the United Kingdom will have a better understanding of what action business is taking and can call for more action if they think it is needed. <BR /> <BR />The provision has been the subject of considerable lobbying by NGOs.”
“Again, I trust that we will have the Assembly’s support. <BR /> <BR />The final area that the LCM covers relates to new provisions to enhance transparency in supply chains under clause 51 of the Modern Slavery Bill. That clause will place a requirement on commercial organisations operating in the UK and supplying goods or services to prepare a slavery and human trafficking statement for each financial year and to publish it on their website. The current expectation is that the measure would capture approximately 1,000 of the largest commercial organisations operating in the UK. However, the detail of the level of the threshold is to be established in regulations after consultation with the devolved Administrations and business.”
“They include a requirement to consult the Northern Ireland Minister on the appointment of the commissioner; consultation on the strategic plan; powers for the Northern Ireland Minister to commission ad hoc reports; powers of redaction, where needed; and annual reports to be submitted simultaneously to Ministers in each jurisdiction. There will be a requirement on my Department to lay the strategic plan and annual report before the Assembly, and there will be powers to specify in regulations the public authorities in Northern Ireland that will be under a duty to cooperate with the commissioner. The provisions, if agreed, will ensure that there is a comprehensive, coordinated response and consistent, joined-up oversight across the United Kingdom to reinforce and improve our collective response to modern slavery.”
“In doing so, the commissioner may carry out research, consult, make reports, make recommendations to public authorities, provide information, education or training and work in partnership with other persons in the UK or elsewhere. That latter power is especially welcome in the context of the particular challenges posed by traffickers operating across our shared land border. I am encouraged that Kevin Hyland, the commissioner designate, is already engaging with such cross-border issues and has agreed to address next month’s cross-border conference on forced labour hosted jointly by my Department and the Department of Justice and Equality. <BR /> <BR />After significant lobbying with the Home Secretary and her team, the Bill makes several specific provisions to cover Northern Ireland interests.”
“The proposal received overwhelming support, with 30 of 34 responses to the public consultation supporting it. I hope, therefore, that Members will support it, not least because just last week the House voted to remove from Lord Morrow’s Bill clause 26, in relation to a Northern Ireland rapporteur, in favour of the UK-wide commissioner. <BR /> <BR />As I have said before, a commissioner operating across the entire United Kingdom will provide an effective oversight model for all relevant bodies operating on these issues in Northern Ireland whether devolved or not. The commissioner's role is to encourage good practice in the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of slavery and human trafficking offences and in the identification of victims.”
“The Chief Constable and the Policing Board agree that extending the powers to Northern Ireland would enhance our capacity to respond to these crimes and bring perpetrators to justice. I have also ensured that appropriate accountability arrangements broadly mirroring those for mutual aid are in place where operations take place in our waters. To summarise, the powers will assist law enforcement in bringing to justice those responsible for trafficking and exploiting other human beings. <BR /> <BR />The second area covered by the LCM is the proposed extension to Northern Ireland of the Independent Anti-slavery Commissioner under Part 4 of the Bill. Members are well aware of the reasons why I believe Northern Ireland will benefit greatly from the oversight that the commissioner offers.”
“The Bill also makes it clear that the authority of the Chief Constable is needed before an enforcement officer may exercise the powers in Northern Ireland waters. The Bill also makes provision for powers to be exercised in hot pursuit situations, that is where a vessel is pursued from international waters or from another UK jurisdiction. Together, the package of powers is intended to ensure that traffickers could be apprehended anywhere in UK territorial waters or in adjacent international waters. It would enhance the effectiveness of our collective response to these crimes. <BR /> <BR />As I noted, I have been mindful to preserve the PSNI's primacy in Northern Ireland waters in all but hot pursuit situations. I am satisfied that this strikes the right balance.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have engaged with the Home Secretary and the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice on the development of a comprehensive package of maritime enforcement powers that would cover the whole of the United Kingdom. The Bill was subsequently amended to include those new powers. Essentially, there are two distinct elements. First, the Bill now provides general enforcement powers that can be exercised by constables operating within their respective jurisdictions or in international waters and by enforcement officers, such as officers of the UK Border Force, who are well placed to identify and respond to suspected cases of trafficking at sea. The general powers include specific provision for PSNI officers.”
“The practical limitations of the existing powers of law enforcement to tackle human trafficking and slavery offences at sea were highlighted by a recent case in which a UK-flagged vessel suspected of being connected with human trafficking was anchored outside UK territorial waters. In that case, police were unable to board the vessel until it sailed into territorial waters. The Home Office has advised that it is aware of similar incidents in recent years. The Modern Slavery Bill therefore sought to close that potential loophole and clarify law enforcement’s powers to act at sea where there is suspicion that a human trafficking or slavery-type offence has occurred. The Bill includes provisions to create new enforcement powers, but they were limited in extent to England and Wales only when the Bill was introduced.”
“The Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Bill tabled by Lord Morrow has made good progress through the House, and, indeed, we expect to complete its Final Stage tomorrow. It is important legislation that will help to reinforce our response to human trafficking and slavery. My proposal that these further measures in the Modern Slavery Bill should be extended to Northern Ireland is intended to complement the provisions in Lord Morrow’s Bill. They will help to ensure that the arrangements in this jurisdiction are improved to address human trafficking and slavery, to protect victims and to bring perpetrators to justice. We want to ensure that they are underpinned by the most comprehensive and effective package of legislative provisions possible. <BR /> <BR />The provisions deal with three key areas.”
“<BR /> <BR />I trust that the ongoing and somewhat extended discussions with the SDLP and Sinn Féin will terminate shortly and that we will see the NCA operating in a way that supports efforts against organised crime in this jurisdiction, with all the costs that we see to the work being done by the PSNI and the dangers to people in this society through a variety of organised crime that has been highlighted on numerous occasions. However, I suspect that, if I go on much further, Deputy Speaker, you will tell me that I am digressing from the topic. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the support from four Members for the principles of the LCM and recommend it to the House.”
“If Mr Maginness felt obliged to defend the SDLP's position, I am happy to allow him that intervention to do so. However, as far as I am concerned, 14 months on from the coming into operation of the NCA, with a significant amount of work done by my officials and, indeed, significant lobbying on my part with the Home Secretary, I believe that we have made major steps forward. Like other Members, I would like to see the accountability to ensure that the NCA's role is in support of the PSNI and does not subsume the role of the PSNI. I believe that we have made significant progress there.”
“I should stress, first of all, that the issues in this legislation, as far as they relate to the Proceeds of Crime Act, are related to criminal confiscation and not civil recovery. Therefore, they are powers that are available in Northern Ireland. "As far as possible" was merely, from my point of view, expressing the fact that legislation is not identical across the United Kingdom. Aspects of the legislation in England and Wales differ from that in Scotland and in Northern Ireland. It was simply a slight technical term. I was not suggesting that there is a problem with its operation but merely that the legislative basis is not identical across the three jurisdictions because that is what devolution is about. I hope that I can reassure Mr Wilson on that point. I hope that I have not now upset Mr Maginness by saying that.”