David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“It is quite clear, as Mr Douglas said, that the cost of legal aid has remained stubbornly high and has not significantly changed over the five years since devolution. I could say that what would have happened if we had not implemented some of the reforms, particularly some of the criminal reforms that we went through at an early stage, is that we would be looking at a further £20 million or more on legal aid costs at present. Of course, it can go up and down. As part of an initiative to reduce waiting lists, particularly in the Belfast area, the Lord Chief Justice assigned an additional Crown Court judge to Laganside Court a couple of years ago, with the result that the criminal backlog decreased very significantly and the cost of legal defence went up significantly because those cases were dealt with.”
“I am happy to confirm that the last statistics I saw showed a reduction of something like 25% or 30% in the number of litigants in person appearing in court over the last four or five years, so they do not suggest that there has been any increase in litigants in person as a result of the changes that have been made in legal aid, a point that has been made at times but does not seem to have any substance at this stage. <BR /> <BR />I noted that there was a reference, although I do not think I could turn it up amongst the 270 pages at this point, to greater capacity for the use of the so-called McKenzie friends, who would assist individuals in court. I think that, if we are looking at fewer litigants in person and a greater ability for McKenzie friends to assist, we need have no fears.”
“I cannot give the full detail of that at this stage. There are a number of issues that relate to the way in which the family justice system operates and there are other Departments that are involved in that, but, certainly, as we look at the details of it, I am quite happy to say that I will write to Mr Somerville as soon as possible to give him the details he has asked for.”
“<BR /> <BR />The important issue, as I said earlier, is to ensure that there is access to justice and that individuals benefit from early access, but that we do not necessarily fund adversarial court cases if they are not what really produce justice for the individuals.”
“I thank Ms Hanna for being an able deputy for Alban Maginness. At least we did not get the barrister's view at that point. The key issue is to ensure that we make the best use of available resources, including the voluntary advice sector. That is part of looking at alternative ways of resolving issues. I do not think that we need to look with great fear at what the potential will be there. There are certainly recommendations to reduce levels of higher representation — as, indeed, have some of the changes that have been made — for example in family cases, but we will still see the benefits of the lower-level work that is done by solicitors or advice centres, without necessarily having the same number of QCs on every case.”
“As usual, it is a pleasure to welcome a comment from the Committee's Deputy Chair as well as from the Chair. I thank him for his welcome for the outline of the statement. <BR /> <BR />The report is out for consultation, but work is well under way on developing an implementation plan on the basis that we can move on some issues relatively speedily. I will see that that work is advanced as fast as possible. The consultation period will be slightly longer than usual because it will include the Christmas holidays. The intention is that the Department will report back to the Committee with full details after the consultation period is over and well in advance of the election in order to set the tone, frankly, for the next Assembly mandate should legislation be required and to put administrative change in place as fast as possible.”
“However, the reality is quite clearly spelled out in the report: we must make progress and see things moving forward, and we need to ensure that that is the case. My understanding is that, for Jim Daniell and Colin Stutt, that engagement started with a wide range of stakeholders. As the report was being done, there was an opportunity for people to comment at various stages. That will show that we are moving forward, but I now want to see the public response to the consultation.”
“<BR /> <BR />I agree entirely with the Member that it is important that we get the consultation right and that it does not slow down the work that is under way. I give a commitment that my officials will continue to work through that. <BR /> <BR />It is not for me to comment on who Colin Stutt believes may have been resistant to change in the past. All I can say is that, over the past five and a half years, there has been a lot of change. Things have speeded up significantly. It has been a partnership that has involved the Department, including the Minister, the Committee and a number of other stakeholders, but, as we look at things, it is clear that we do not have unanimity across the justice system. I continue to hope that my officials, by engaging constructively with all our partners, will see that work enhanced.”
“If a system from the Netherlands is adaptable in parts of Canada, we may need to look at whether it is adaptable in Northern Ireland as well. <BR /> <BR />Mr Ross referred to prioritisation. When Members read the report, they will recognise that, of the 150 recommendations, some are overarching and strategic and others are relatively low-key and operational, not all of which fall to the DOJ. It is not possible for me to give a specific commitment as to how, for example, recommendations to the judiciary will be carried forward. As I said, I will discuss them with the Lord Chief Justice in the hope that the good work that he and Lord Justice Gillen have done in this area will inform the work of their colleagues to ensure that we continue to join up the system as far as we can.”
“I will try to respond to all those points, although my writing is perhaps not as fast as Mr Ross's questioning. I welcome the point that he highlighted about the justice innovation seminars that the Committee ran. I frequently talk about cooperation between the Department and the Committee, and I certainly welcome the Committee's work through those seminars. Unfortunately, I did not get to the most recent one, which looked at developing online systems and digital justice in certain ways, although I have had extremely positive reports on the seminar from officials who were present, as, indeed, I have had from the official who accompanied the Chair and the Deputy Chair to the Netherlands to look at its work earlier this year. I have no doubt that, as systems develop in different parts of the world, we can learn lessons in this area.”
“There are, for example, recommendations in respect of public family law and mediation where DHSSPS has a role to play. In divorce and issues relating to the legal profession, the Department of Finance and Personnel has a role to play. I will wish to engage with the respective Ministers in addressing these issues. <BR /> <BR />This is a very comprehensive report, and I cannot do it justice in a brief statement. It is thought-provoking and, in parts, challenging. However, it has the potential to inform an agenda for change that will speed up the justice system, reduce costs and improve the experience of those who come into contact with the system. I encourage Members and the wider public to read it and engage with the consultation process.”
“<BR /> <BR />Similarly, I will wish to discuss with the Lord Chief Justice the proposal for a working group to deliver efficiency measures in the criminal courts. The pilot project in the Crown Court, which I mentioned earlier, is clear evidence that positive change can be delivered in this area. <BR /> <BR />The report recommends that legal aid funding be retained for judicial review proceedings, and I welcome this. It is important that the actions of government bodies are properly held to account. However, I also welcome the recommendations for tightening up access to this intervention to ensure that it is accessed when appropriate, as well as the measures proposed to resolve disputes through alternative approaches. <BR /> <BR />The report makes a number of recommendations that impact the responsibilities of other Departments.”
“However, as the recommendations in these areas concern ensuring that those who can afford to contribute to the cost of legal representation do so, they must be right in principle. <BR /> <BR />The report makes a number of recommendations on the structure and operation of the court system. It suggests a move towards a more inquisitorial system, and I will reflect on the responses to the consultation and consult the Lord Chief Justice on these suggestions. <BR /> <BR />The report also suggests ways of improving family justice procedures and practice, and this will feed into the work that the Lord Chief Justice has recently commissioned Lord Justice Gillen to take forward in respect of the civil and family courts.”
“<BR /> <BR />The report recommends some modest changes to the scope of legal aid. I have already consulted on some of these areas, and I will reflect on the specific comments in the report as I take this work forward. However, in one key area, it suggests that private family law should largely remain within scope, unlike the situation in England and Wales. I welcome this recommendation. <BR /> <BR />The report addresses issues such as eligibility for legal aid support; the opportunities to reduce or recoup costs through, for example, increased contributions; and changes in the statutory charge that will increase its effectiveness. I will consider each of these areas.”
“I will consider very carefully the comments made by those who respond to this consultation. However, we cannot afford to let the period of consultation hold up the reforms that are already in progress. I will continue to take forward the development of a new standard fee approach for civil legal services, where the development of arrangements for family cases is at an advanced stage. In the longer term, I will wish to reflect on the views that might be expressed in the consultation on the proposal for a wider remuneration strategy. <BR /> <BR />I have already announced that I will remove most money damages cases from scope. I plan to progress this, but, in doing so, will consult separately on the alternative funding arrangements recommended in the report. They have the potential to maintain, if not enhance, access to justice.”
“It identifies the legally irreducible minimum for a legal aid scheme, but goes on to argue why it would be inappropriate to reduce legal aid in Northern Ireland to that level. It suggests a range of priorities for access to justice, but argues that those are not the same as priorities for legal aid. Against that backdrop, the report recognises the pressures caused by the demand for legal aid and the consequential need to identify measures to control expenditure, while minimising the impact on access to justice. It also recognises the potential for steps to be taken to improve the way in which justice is delivered. Some of the proposals could result in fundamental change and deliver improved efficiency and effectiveness.”
“We currently have a comprehensive legal aid scheme — the report refers to it as world class — and we need to get the balance right to ensure that it is sustainable and that people who are most vulnerable are able to access the support that they need. There is a need to balance difficult decisions over the allocation of resources with new or more efficient and effective ways of delivering access and ensure that those who have the necessary means contribute to, or meet, their own legal costs. <BR /> <BR />The report provides a comprehensive analysis and makes some 150 wide-ranging recommendations. It starts by acknowledging that access to justice is a fundamental human right and that legal aid is an indispensable part of the system. I completely agree.”
“Today, I am pleased to publish that report and begin a period of public consultation on its findings and recommendations. I am very grateful to Jim Daniell and Colin Stutt for their time, effort and research over many months, and for their commitment to delivering a thought-provoking report. I also thank those who made contributions and offered views to the review. It is important now that all those who wish to comment let us have their views on the recommendations. <BR /> <BR />As I have said before in the House, fair and effective means of securing access to justice are essential elements of any civilised society.”
“The overall purpose of the review was threefold: first, to identify and prioritise services where publicly funded advice and/or representation should be provided to meet human rights obligations, safeguard the interests of vulnerable people and meet the wider public interest; secondly, to consider the delivery models that might be best suited to the provision of publicly funded legal services through mechanisms other than legal aid; and, thirdly, to consider whether there are aspects of the justice system where efficiencies might contribute towards reducing the cost of publicly funded legal services while sustaining the quality of service provision. <BR /> <BR />I have now received a very comprehensive and detailed report.”
“Of the cases concluded to date, the average number of days from incident report to sentencing was 97, compared to 175 in the same period last year. <BR /> <BR />However, access to justice is a complex issue and more needs to be done to maintain momentum. Over time, the wider environment has changed, and that is why I commissioned this follow-up review.”
“<BR /> <BR />More recently, attention has turned to the potential for reducing the scope of civil legal aid in areas where alternative provision is available or where public funding should be prioritised to the areas of most need. The introduction of standard fees for family cases is also at an advanced stage. <BR /> <BR />A pilot project to minimise unnecessary delay in care proceedings is now getting under way and should commence in January in Newtownards and Londonderry courts. Separately, under the banner of "speeding up justice", an innovative approach has been piloted in the Ards Crown Court division to progress indictable cases more swiftly. Early engagement between defence and prosecution practitioners, as well as the police and the prosecution service, has delivered real improvement.”
“Much has been achieved in these areas in the intervening period. Reforms have been introduced that have helped to manage the cost of legal aid, including new fee arrangements in criminal courts and more appropriate levels of representation in the civil and criminal courts. Legal aid spend remains stubbornly high, but, without these changes, the costs would have been even higher. <BR /> <BR />Pilot projects have been run with the third sector, helping to shape how partnerships might operate to meet specific needs in the future. The Legal Services Agency has been created, complete with new appeal arrangements; and responsibility for exceptional grant funding has passed to the director of legal aid casework, removing the Justice Minister from any involvement in individual decisions.”
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the access to justice review, part II. <BR /> <BR />Members will recall that, in 2011, I published the first access to justice review, which led to a comprehensive programme of work, with three strategic objectives for reform: improving access to justice; bringing legal aid within budget; and improving governance.”
“I spoke at a conference on cyber crime in Lisburn a couple of weeks ago, and significant efforts are being made by a range of organisations to make people more aware and advise them to be cautious of what they see in emails and even what they get in telephone calls. Things that promise too much are almost certainly too good to be true, and people need to be aware of that. At the same time, the agencies need to take resolute action.”
“If the Member is asking what the Minister is doing, the Minister is supporting a number of operational agencies. There is very significant work being done on cybercrime by the National Crime Agency. I highlighted earlier the work being done on child exploitation and the horrendous issues of child sexual abuse. Ongoing work is being done by the police, in conjunction with the NCA, across a range of criminal activities. There is no doubt that, if any crime is possible these days, it is either possible to carry it out on a cyber basis or else electronic communications assist the carrying out of that crime. <BR /> <BR />People have discovered that it is sometimes easier to rob a bank through cyber activity than by putting on a balaclava and walking in with a big bag.”
“I do not have the historical figures for the Assets Recovery Agency and SOCA. My understanding is that nothing specific has been recovered by the NCA at this point, although there is preliminary work ongoing, partly because the NCA staff who were dealing with that kind of work were, until May, committed to supporting their colleagues in England, Wales and Scotland in the work that they were doing there. They will continue to do some of that work in the meantime. It is clear, now that we have the focus of the NCA fully operational in Northern Ireland, it will be in a position to follow up on those matters, and I understand that a number of cases are now under serious investigation.”
“I cannot give any specific assessment of that, but Members will be well aware of assessments that have been made by others, notably in the Republic in recent times, that suggest that substantial assets are held. That is another reason why it was good to get the NCA operational. It is also the reason why we need all the relevant bodies. It is not just about the PSNI and the Garda Síochána; a range of bodies on both sides of the border need to carry out actions against those who hoard assets as a result of criminal activity directed against this society.”
“We cannot do all that we wish in current circumstances, but, if Members could see their way to ensuring that we get the necessary financial arrangements made, if we could see workable budgets and if we could set out plans that actually put into practice what the Programme for Government is supposed to talk about, we would be in a better position.”
“I take Mr McKinney's point slightly. I think that I actually said that, in the context of early childhood interventions, the Department of Justice might well take 12 to 14 years to get its benefit, whereas the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Department of Education could see the benefits within two to three years. He is right to highlight that there can well be problems if we fail to deal with issues like addiction and that it can lead to costs for the criminal justice system at a fairly speedy rate. Nonetheless, the fact remains that we do not have the budget to do all that we need to do. Difficult decisions have been made. Prioritisation has happened. His colleague has just highlighted the issue of ongoing paramilitary violence, and that also needs to be considered.”
“I cannot say that any specific assessment has been given. Mr McKinney speaks about Ballymena, and there are issues around the Railway Street project, which was funded in part by the Department of Justice. Frankly, it was not possible to continue to fund that at the previous level. There was no pleasure in withdrawing funding from that; it was the reality of the world in which we live. The failure to resolve significant financial issues and the problems that the Executive have had collectively in setting up a Budget has made it very difficult to do the work that we need to do. It is difficult to put the money into prevention in the way that we wish when we do not have the money that we need to deal with today's problems”
“Mr Dallat can rest assured that the Department of Justice and the agencies with which we work are on board to establish a peaceful, lawful society. It is not just an issue for the criminal justice system; it is an issue that requires a joined-up approach and which, most of all, requires the five parties and the two Governments meeting in Stormont House — I trust, tomorrow morning — to get on with dealing with those issues in a realistic, meaningful, joined-up way so that we can put paramilitarism behind us and see, in the shortest timescale possible, an end to those activities that were reported as still being in existence today.”
“I share the concerns that Mr Dallat has expressed about the behaviour of the UDA in his constituency and in the north Antrim area. Clearly, there are still those who think that they have rights to act in a way that they never legitimately had. When we look at the report just published by the Secretary of State this afternoon and see the discussion on the statement that was happening in the House of Commons as I came into the Chamber, it is clear that there is now a major issue to be addressed in recognising that organisations that have moved to some extent since Good Friday 1998 need to complete the journey away from paramilitarism, violence, threat and the criminal activities that so many of them are involved in.”
“I cannot possibly answer that question. It may well be the case that individuals have concerns, but my Department does not have any responsibility for that issue.”
“I am not in a position to give any assessment of what the public interest would be in that particular context. Ms Boyle, as a relevant constituency MLA, may have some slightly more specific ideas than I do, but the reality is that there are reasons why, at times, public interest immunity certificates are granted. Those do not fall to me — they tend to fall to the Secretary of State — so it would be very difficult for me to give any detail on that.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also think that, particularly through the work of PCSPs and others, we are seeing some good being done with young teenagers who are in danger of getting into trouble. I remember that, a couple of years ago, I saw three different projects within the space of about six weeks that were all doing that kind of work. They were organised by different organisations in different parts of Northern Ireland, but each was, fundamentally, about establishing personal relationships and providing good role models for young people. They were all excellent examples of how very modest investments were helping young people to stay out of trouble. I am committed to supporting that as best I can, given current budgetary constraints.”
“I am certainly happy to agree with Mr Rogers on the point about the need for early intervention, which is a critical issue. When I look at early intervention, I can see it in two different categories. One is the very early life interventions, and the Department of Justice contributes to some of those projects on a cross-departmental basis even though, in very blunt terms, we are unlikely to see the benefit of that intervention in the DOJ for 12 or 14 years until young children have grown up and might become nuisances or criminals, whereas Education and Health will see their response back very quickly. I believe that, as part of a commitment to a joined-up approach, that is necessary.”
“That sounds like a question that has a well-prepared supplementary, and I congratulate Mr Rogers for that. I cannot at this stage give an assessment of expenditure in Northern Ireland compared with other neighbouring jurisdictions in the way that he has asked. Sadly, Ministers do not always have every last bit of detail at their fingertips when they answer topical questions, but if he wishes to expand on it in a supplementary, I will do my best either to answer or to see that we provide the information later.”
“We will not develop a normal society, we will not grow our economy and we will not be able to move away from the issues of the past if we cannot continue the action that has seen six interface structures removed during my time as Minister and significant engagement on many others.”
“I think that the next round of that survey is due to be released within the next few weeks. I will certainly see that, whenever it is released, it is placed in the Assembly Library, and Members will be informed of that. It is clear that, when he talked about attitudes to peace walls, Mr Allen raised a very significant issue, because there is no doubt that there are still those who feel the need for physical protection, particularly if they live close to interface structures, yet there are many others who recognise that the best interests of society are served by the removal of those structures, when we can deal with those genuine fears amongst those who live close to them.”
“There has certainly been very close engagement over the last while in dealing with that, and I think that it is something that shows the benefits of looking in a slightly wider way at some of the responsibilities that we have in government and of learning from that.”
“I thank Mr Allen for the question, and I think that I can now formally welcome him to his first time at Justice questions and to his first chance to ask a question. <BR /> <BR />The ongoing work on the details of getting rid of peace walls has been fairly significant for my Department. Work has been done by staff from Ulster University looking at how that is operating, and there is ongoing work looking at the best way of joining up the work that we do with that of other agencies. I am not in a position to present a formal report at this stage, but I believe that the contribution of the academics who have looked at the work from a slightly external position has been of benefit to my staff.”
“I am not sure that I can say that the intelligence was necessarily shared exactly as it might have been in that particular case, but it is something that I have given a commitment to look at with my Department and in conjunction with the Department of Justice and Equality as part of our ongoing cross-border work.”
“I think that Mr Eastwood has slightly expanded beyond the remit of the original question, Mr Deputy Speaker. The death of Garda Tony Golden was a great tragedy and the result of criminal activity perpetrated by somebody who originally lived in Northern Ireland and was then living in the Republic. <BR /> <BR />The issue of the organised crime response is not particularly relevant to such things, but, as I said, in the context of how we ensure the best possible public protection and how we deal with issues that relate to domestic and sexual violence, it may well be that we have a greater need to see matters joined up across the border when people move in that way.”
“The aim was to identify and consider new and developing organised crime threats; to further develop cooperation and partnership working across the border; to exchange ideas on best practice; and to consider lessons learned in order to enhance the response to organised crime in both jurisdictions.”
“The annual cross-border organised crime conference, attended by law enforcement officers and policymakers, was held on 30 September and 1 October. Over 100 delegates from North and South attended. This year's conference title was 'One step ahead — jointly meeting the threat'. The conference was opened by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald TD; the Garda Commissioner, Nóirín O'Sullivan; the Chief Constable of the PSNI, George Hamilton; and me. <BR /> <BR />There were presentations and workshops on the illegal production of counterfeit goods, emerging technologies, foreign-national organised crime groups and the new fuel marker.”
“I thank Mr McCarthy for his question. The current position is a consequence of the in-out ministerial thing, where, sadly, for a few minutes a week, we seem to have a Minister of Health, and so on. The Minister of Health has not found time to engage on the issue. Unfortunately, however, there were issues before now, and we did not deal with the matter as speedily as we should have done. I believe that my Department did all that it could on the work on the joint strategy but it is not for me to speak for the Department of Health. I just want to see Ministers back at work, the Executive functioning, the strategy agreed and all the action plans — the health bits as well as the justice bits, and also those bits that relate to other Departments in smaller areas — fully implemented.”
“The challenge at this stage is not to have prepared the strategy but to put it into action. That is why, as I said to Mr McCartney, the DOJ is doing what it can on its responsible actions, but we really need agreement from the Minister of Health and the Executive, in a fully working arrangement, to ensure that we can carry the strategy forward in a comprehensive way.”
“Mr Dallat recounts that this is currently an exclusively male gathering, and it appears to be the case. I am sure, however, that he was glued to Radio Ulster at 6.05 pm last Friday to hear his colleague Dolores Kelly discuss the issue of domestic violence with me. Indeed, he might have noticed how full of praise Mrs Kelly was for the work that is being done by the DOJ, and I am sad that he did not manage to quote that. <BR /> <BR />It is certainly the case that the vast majority of victims of domestic and sexual violence are female, or, indeed, their children. They also suffer, whether directly or indirectly, because of violence in the home. On that basis, my understanding is that, as the strategy was being prepared, Women's Aid was one of a number of organisations that contributed.”
“We will continue to do that work whilst hoping that we can get agreement about a joined-up strategy that will be fully comprehensive and better meet the needs of society.”
“I thank Mr McCartney for his general support of the process as Deputy Chairperson of the Committee. I cannot say whether it is a budgetary issue. The reality is that the budgetary costs to the Department of Justice are, I believe, manageable given the priority which we have put to dealing with domestic and sexual violence. It is not for me to speak for the Health Minister — when we have one — as to the priorities of that Department. I believe that the work that we are doing, which has been outlined to the Committee, whether on issues like the court listing arrangements, looking at domestic homicide reviews or looking at disclosure arrangements, is important for my Department to carry through.”