Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“<BR /> <BR />David Brooks mentioned the need to tackle the issue and said that people should not be pushed out of their communities: I did not really understand that point. I think that he was referring to the Village. It is not in my constituency, but, since 2007, I have been supporting people there who live in bad housing conditions and challenging that. I remember the story in the early 2000s of an elderly woman who died because her oven was lying open and she was poisoned. Disgracefully, that was the only way in which she could heat her home.”
“<BR /> <BR />Robbie Butler said that the issue is not abstract and is one of the most common issues to come through his office. In some ways, that is unsurprising. It is not good to hear it but good that it will, hopefully, put pressure on the Minister to act. He also mentioned that people are being worn down by repeatedly reporting problems to the Housing Executive and other providers. That is the case for me and the people I represent. <BR /> <BR />Cathy Mason also mentioned that the fight is constant and that it is the biggest issue that her constituency office comes across. Again, that should give the Minister focus on how urgent and widespread the issue is in urban and rural areas across the North.”
“She talked about the tragic death of Awaab Ishak and said that good intentions alone will not fix damp and mould: I agree. That is why legislation is needed. <BR /> <BR />Colm Gildernew talked about Awaab's death being tragic but preventable. That is absolutely the case. <BR /> <BR />Kellie Armstrong talked about problems in the private rented sector and how people who are living in damp and mouldy conditions also live in fear of being evicted. Most Members across the House stated that. It should give the Minister focus on how fearful private rented sector tenants are. In a general sense, he is reluctant to regulate too much, but there is a power imbalance. Private tenants are living in fear and in unsuitable housing.”
“I thank the Minister for that. He may be referring to the 1981 legislation or the 2011 legislation. When speaking to environmental health people, they often say that, in a general sense, the legislation is not strong enough. This is from recollection — I will be happy to correct the record at a future date if it is not the case — but, in an answer to me, the Department basically said that nothing can be done in those situations and that the Housing Executive effectively has no power over those properties. Again, if I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected, but that is my recollection of the answer that the Minister gave me a few months ago. <BR /> <BR />Pam Cameron said that damp and mould are not minor issues but serious health issues: obviously, I agree with her on that.”
“They should not be paid and should probably be financially penalised if they house people in substandard accommodation, and there should be legislative protection for people during their tenancy so that they are not turfed out. The Minister and his officials who are listening to the debate should consider that.”
“I think that that was in a single let being used by the Housing Executive. That is an all-too-common issue that many people hear about. In my experience — maybe it is the same for the Member — when you go to the Department, it says that, in a single-let situation like that, it is up to the landlord to fix the problems. However, the Department is not — maybe it is — cognisant of the fact that there is no obligation on landlords, for the most part, to fix those problems. Tenants are living in fear, and the issues of damp and mould are not addressed or fixed. <BR /> <BR />One suggestion is to restrict payment to landlords in that situation.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I thank Members for the debate. There was, for the most part, unanimity and agreement, which is good, but I hope that action can follow rather than it just being a good debate and a pat on the back. We need real action from the Minister, and I will come to that in a second. I will run through some of the comments — obviously, I cannot deal with all of them — and then make some closing remarks. <BR /> <BR />The Member for Foyle Mark Durkan — I encourage Members to vote for his amendment — talked about damp and mould being Dickensian, which it is, and about the health impacts. I think that he initiated mention of the Minister's sidestepping and stalling, and I largely agree with that. He talked about a child in his constituency being hospitalised because of damp and mould. That is pretty grim.”
“The Member said that higher standards should not be about breaking apart communities. I have no idea what he is referring to.”
“For clarity, will the Member elaborate on his previous point about higher standards not breaking apart communities?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I share her concerns. If I recall correctly, when he came into office, the Minister for Communities said that he was minded to implement legislation along the lines of Awaab's law. The Member is on the Communities Committee, so does she know why he has apparently backtracked on that earlier position?”
“<BR /> <BR />You cannot tackle damp and mould without tackling cold homes. We urgently need minimum energy efficiency standards in the social and private rented sectors. We lag far behind England, Wales and the South of Ireland in that regard. We need Awaab's law to be introduced here — not in the next mandate but now. Tenants deserve meaningful and enforceable rights, not non-binding guidance and empty words from Executive parties that refuse to act. I encourage Members to support the motion.”
“The Decent Homes Standard, of course, applies only to social housing. Minimum energy efficiency standards may help to tackle damp and mould in the private rented sector over time, but that would take far too long to implement in practice. <BR /> <BR />I held a cross-organisational meeting upstairs today. I thank everybody who attended it. Representatives from National Energy Action (NEA) were there. Ahead of the debate, I received an NEA briefing — I think that all Members received it — that stated that 43% of respondents to a poll that it had commissioned said that their home had damp and mould and 39% of respondents were living in fuel poverty, with that figure rising to a shocking 64% for those in social housing. A lot of work needs to be done in the social housing sector as well as in the private rented sector .”
“How can they guarantee that more borrowing powers will not mean that the Housing Executive will be reclassified from a public body to a mutual or cooperative — in other words, privatised? My party will always oppose and always has opposed any attempt at privatisation, be that full-on privatisation, half privatisation or privatisation with a fancy wrapper. All of those things undermine public accountability for tenants, the public and public services more generally. I ask the DUP Members this: will strict time frames for investigation and carrying out repairs be included in the new Decent Homes Standard review? Meaningful enforcement action is one of the key principles of Awaab's law, so will that be included in the new Decent Homes Standard? If it is not, it will not be worth the paper it was written on.”
“In the social housing sector, the Housing Executive's maintenance and repair work is increasingly contracted out to private companies with minimal oversight. Private landlords and companies — the likes of Mears and Tarasis — rake in record profits from temporary accommodation. They put homeless families into damp and mouldy single lets and tell them that they should be grateful to have a roof over their heads. That is not fair or acceptable. For that reason, I welcome the SDLP amendment, which references the temporary accommodation stock and calls for damp, mould and disrepair to be tackled within strict time frames. <BR /> <BR />I turn to the DUP amendment. I have some questions that, I hope, Members can answer now or in their contributions.”
“I hope that my private Member’s Bill can change that situation in the coming months. <BR />A member of the campaign group Renters’ Voice was hospitalised recently after falling through the crumbling decking at the back of her property, which she had reported to her landlord. When she escalated the complaint to environmental health, she was told that her lease would not be renewed, and she was, in effect, evicted: a 79-year-old woman was made homeless. That is the reality for tenants, and it needs to be heard in the debate today. <BR /> <BR />The environmental health teams in councils are chronically underfunded and do not have the resources to carry out enough inspections to enforce the existing minimal standards.”
“It is what happens when working-class communities, people of colour, migrants and refugees are treated as lesser and their lives and health considered to be expendable. Grenfell showed us the same thing: the people who died in the tower were, overwhelmingly, poor people. Safety warnings were ignored in the face of deliberate corner-cutting, and working-class residents paid the price with their lives. <BR /> <BR />We keep hearing that lessons will be learned, but lessons are meaningless without accountability and structural change. Our housing system is built to enable profit, and the attitude in the private rented sector is, essentially, that tenants should put up or shut up. If they complain, they will be put out because there is no protection from no-fault evictions, unlike elsewhere on these islands.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is also the culture of blame. For too long, landlords and social housing providers have pointed the finger at tenants and their cooking, ventilation and heating habits. We saw it in the most devastating terms after the tragic and entirely preventable death of Awaab Ishak, a two-year-old child who died because of prolonged exposure to mould in his home. When his family reported the problem, the housing association suggested it might be linked to the family's bathing and cooking habits. <BR /> <BR />You may ask what that is about. However, it is something that I have heard before: people who are or are presumed to be from a Muslim background — it is institutional racism — being blamed for their terrible housing conditions.”
“That is a 10% response rate, and it is the result of a system that pushes tenants and their most basic rights to the bottom, while landlords and the bureaucracy of an increasingly privatised state are at the top. <BR /> <BR />The power imbalance is felt most acutely in the private rented sector, with more than 60% of respondents to the Renters’ Voice survey stating that they delayed reporting a repair for fear of eviction and over half saying that they decided not to report at all. People are living with black mould crawling up their walls, their windows soaked with condensation and their children going back and forth to A&E, but they say nothing because they are terrified of losing the roof over their heads: that is a hostage situation. It is bad enough that people live in mouldy and damp conditions, but they also live in absolute fear.”
“It is not just about damp and mould, although it is undeniable that tenants are getting sick and dying because their homes are in such a shocking state of repair. People may ask how many are affected: the truth is that we do not know, because the data and figures are not captured. The debate is about who holds power in our society and who is left to suffer the consequences of the imbalance. <BR /> <BR />The facts are damning. In 2023-24, in my constituency of West Belfast, Housing Executive tenants made 1,379 requests for repairs due to damp and mould. In the same year, the Housing Executive completed just 141 repairs, including a single installation of cavity wall insulation.”
“Marcus now constantly leaves windows open, and he buys multiple damp traps for each room in the house every two weeks. The walls are soaked because of structural damage to the house and guttering, and parts of the outside wall are broken and hanging off, which makes it incredibly unsafe for the family to be outside it. Marcus said that, when the issue was raised with his property manager, they replied with questions about how his family ventilated and heated the home, as if they had caused the issues. Again, that is not an isolated case but something that happens across the board. <BR /> <BR />It is abundantly clear to me and many people out there that the Executive have prioritised landlord wealth over people's health. At its core, the debate is about power.”
“Unfortunately, that is not an isolated case. Their windows are covered in mould, despite attempts to paint over it. When the oil boiler began to leak, the family was without heating for over a week; conveniently. The agent could not get hold of the landlord. The house has next to no ventilation, and the few ventilation bricks are plugged up.”
“Marcus and his partner are usually fit and healthy. Since moving into that home, however, they have been plagued throughout the year with severe coughs and chest infections, which get worse in the winter months.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is clear that damp and mould is a public health issue that needs to be tackled urgently, which, up to this point, it has not been. <BR /> <BR />I begin my contribution with the testimony of a constituent of mine. Marcus lives on the Shankill Road in West Belfast. He is also a member of the Community Action Tenants Union (CATU). He rents from a private landlord and lives with his partner and his one-year-old daughter, and I quote from him:”
“Minister, do you agree that we need an ethical just transition away from jobs being connected to the war industry in order to protect people who work in what is called the defence sector and to stop bombs being dropped on people in Europe, the Middle East and elsewhere?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order is made under either Standing Order 65(1)(c) or (1)(e). Last week, the Principal Deputy Speaker, whilst in the Chair, made a point of order about me and proceeded to call me a liar in the debate on Casement Park. Will you review Hansard and make a determination on whether that was in order or whether Standing Orders were breached?”
“If you want dissuade people from that view and challenge Mr Kearney's accurate points, the best way to do so would be to withdraw your objection to bilingual signage on that site. Will you take this chance to do that?”
“Grand Central station is in an interface area and is used by people who use speak different languages, including a large number of Gaeilgeoirí. Going by many people's accounts, your intervention and opposition to bilingual signage are causing a lot of anger and frustration.”
“Is the Member concerned about a Member of the House being accused of lying by the person currently occupying the Speaker's Chair?”
“Although I would never challenge a ruling of the Speaker — I take the Principal Deputy Speaker's point that it was an order that was made when I spoke — does the Member share my concern that the same was not applied to Mr Brett from North Belfast?”
“I cannot address that in 10 seconds. I know that the Member tried to intervene earlier. The point stands.”
“The amendment covers other stadiums as well; it explicitly does not single out the GAA. Members should genuinely read the amendment; I am not being facetious.”
“— that he needs to listen to the truth. I was proud to stand with the residents of Andietown. That was not a picket line; a picket line involves striking workers. I may educate the Member about that on another day. I stand with them in their protest to say that they are for the development of the stadium in principle and in practice but criticise the particular development that was proposed. It is possible to do both, and that is not rocket science. People grasp that, even when Members misrepresent it. <BR /> <BR />Some Members mentioned their concern about singling out the GAA. I made that point directly to Timothy Gaston yesterday and made it in my speech today. Strangely, on the amendment, I find myself agreeing with the Communities Minister, maybe for the first time ever.”
“I will make some progress. <BR /> <BR />I am used to that, but they also misrepresent the concerns of people who live in the vicinity of Casement Park, in places such as Stockmans, Mooreland, Owenvarragh and elsewhere. At a deeper level, Sinn Féin knows that it botched this stage of the Casement Park development, and it is frustrated and angry about that. If I were a Sinn Féin Member, I would be as well. <BR /> <BR />The Member for North Belfast, who is no longer in the Chamber, was robust as usual but reluctant to give way. Comrade Carroll says to him — big, bad Brett”
“You did not give way to me, so no, thanks. Manners cost nothing and all that. I am used to Sinn Féin misrepresenting my and my party's views on the issue. That is by the by.”
“When Members do that, it means that they have nothing else to criticise the amendment for.”
“I agree with the Member on that. The point that I am making is about the types of jobs: will they be in the service industry and hospitality, where people are usually underpaid and often in non-unionised positions? That point stands, although the Member made valid points. <BR /> <BR />The Member for South Down Sinéad Ennis talked about the TUV poking people in the eye: I do not disagree with that. She went on to criticise unionism: I agree with some of those criticisms, but I remind her that her party is in government with the biggest unionist party in this place. As another Member mentioned, Ms Ennis said that she had a speech that she would not use but went on to use it anyway. That is her prerogative. Some would say that that was performative, and some would say other things about it. She tried to lecture me and my party on the GAA.”
“Thank you. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the Member. I had the, I suppose, unfortunate reality of going as a kid to watch Antrim get hammered by Derry most championship years. The Member for Foyle is probably laughing at that. I agree with the Member; I just criticise the point that was made not just by the Member for West Belfast but by others about the economic impact. I am not saying that it does not exist, but it is generally —”
“You could replace "the Olympics" with "any stadium across the North". That point needs to be emphasised. Looking closer to home, I remember, before I was elected to anywhere, the hoo-ha around the Titanic development and the economic impact that would come from that. I think that that was then the largest public spend on a tourist attraction in Europe, and people would laugh at you if you talked about the economic and job impacts of that. Grand Central station, whilst important for transport —”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. I will not be able to respond to everything, but I will do my best to respond to some points. <BR /> <BR />My colleague from West Belfast, the junior Minister, spoke about the wide-ranging benefits of a Casement Park development, and I hope that that is the case if a proper, manageable and safe Casement Park is allowed to go ahead. We need to be cognisant that, in a general sense, the financial impacts of developments are often exaggerated. The economic impact of the Olympics, the World Cup and the Euros beyond just the stadiums is often over-egged. Dave Zirin, a well-known sports journalist, when talking about the Olympics, said something that is relevant to Casement Park:”
“: a community project supporting amateur athletes and building grassroots GAA. I commend my amendment to the House.”
“If it does not, it seems to be just an attempt to stick the boot into the GAA for the sake of it. The Member has been fairly consistent in that, which is his prerogative. <BR /> <BR />Neither Casement nor any other development of stadia should be about developer profits, gentrification or a low-wage neoliberal tourist economy. It is time to move on from the mega Casement and the failed economic model that drove it. It should be guided by the original ideals and values underpinning Cumann Lúthchleas Gael,”
“Casement Park was, as mentioned, a New Decade, New Approach commitment but, at this stage, it does not look as though it is going to be finished by the end of this decade. <BR /> <BR />In my amendment, the principle of venues that host non-sporting events paying money back into the public purse when they have received a significant amount of public money for their development is a worthwhile principle and an agreeable one. My concern, though, with the motion — hence the amendment — is that it singles out the GAA exclusively. My amendment outlines that the same should apply to all stadiums that receive public funding. For example, if there is a large music concert or event at Windsor or Ravenhill and it is lucrative and profitable, surely the same clawback model should exist that is being proposed here for Casement Park.”
“We always did from our end, but there is a difference between manageable development and overdevelopment, and greed as well, which needs to be challenged. Definitely, in this context, there are effectively two GAAs. There is the one of volunteers and players who break their backs every week to show up to training, help facilitate the training, washing the kits week in and week out, driving teams to matches and playing on the pitch in rain, hail or shine. That should be contrasted with the upper echelons of the GAA, who refuse to adequately invest in grassroots GAA but also blindly push a corporate vision of Casement Park and, not to mention, have an ostrich approach to the GAA's association with Allianz as well.”
“That was not meant to be a speech. I will not take lectures from the Member opposite or his party, who ignore residents and their concerns and repeat the mantra of anti-GAA to people who live in West Belfast. It is ridiculous and not true. I will move on. <BR /> <BR />Look at the example of Páirc Uí Chaoimh in Cork, which is now called SuperValu Páirc Uí Chaoimh. What is the equivalent being proposed for Casement? In the 2013 book, 'GAAconomics: The Secret Life of Money in the GAA', Michael Moynihan discusses how the Celtic tiger led to the GAA's splurging on stadiums that were simply too big. He writes that, of the 26 stadiums in Ireland with a capacity of over 20,000, the GAA owns 23 of them. <BR /> <BR />Everybody should support the development of Casement Park, despite what was alleged earlier.”
“He claims that the option of 38,000 was never about attracting large numbers to GAA matches but was a GAA "vanity project", to use his words, similar to Páirc Uí Chaoimh in —.”
“For many, Patrick Murphy, a journalist for the 'The Irish News', put it well in an article last year, in which he stated:”
“I was quoting what is in the news, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, but I am moving on anyway.”
“I pay tribute to those residents and to the work that they have done not just for their community, which is my community, but for every single one of us. Members in many quarters of the House did their best to bury the health and safety concerns that were raised by people such as Paul Scott and groups such as the Mooreland and Owenvarragh Residents' Association (MORA), whose judicial work in the courts system helped to highlight the dangers of ploughing ahead with a dangerous development that could have resulted in a Hillsborough-type disaster in West Belfast.”
“It is also empty because of the greed that has been shown by the upper echelons of Ulster GAA and by Sinn Féin, who wanted to drive ahead with a 40,000-, 38,000- or 34,000-seater stadium, regardless of what people in the area thought or how they would be impacted on. It is telling that, although a key pillar of Sinn Féin's strategy for the North has been Casement Park, it has been unable to lay a brick there, despite holding the posts of Finance Minister, Economy Minister and First Minister, and having a junior Minister. <BR /> <BR />Residents of Mooreland, Owenvarragh, Stockmans and the wider Andersonstown area raised concerns about the size and scale of the development that was going to be on their doorstep, and they were denigrated for it; they were called anti-GAA and told to suck it up.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is worth remembering that we are at this point currently because we were supposed to have a multipurpose sports facility at the Long Kesh site, which would have encompassed all sports, music concerts and other events. That was not built because of the ongoing crisis in unionism. The then First Minister, Peter Robinson, initially agreed to the development of the site, but backed down after being forced to concede to harder-line elements in his party — a familiar story. <BR /> <BR />Casement Park lies empty because of the disaster that surrounded it and the politics that dominate this place.”