Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“Thank you, Minister. I take your point about the dangers of alcohol — I know about them all too well — but I hope that you will take my point that people are being ripped off in most places when they buy a pint or a glass of wine. That is connected to the surrender principle but also to naked profiteering. <BR /> <BR />What consideration have you given to Unite the union's Get Me Home Safely campaign, which places duties on employers that are connected to the granting of licences to ensure that staff — the 6,000 that you mentioned — get home safely, that taxis are paid for by employers and that there is zero tolerance of sexual harassment in the workplace. Are you open to supporting that campaign?”
“I appreciate that I may be in an opposition of one, but I am happy to put my position on the record.”
“I will briefly speak against the amendment. I have said previously that such an amendment goes against the spirit of the Bill and even against what the Minister said at the Bill's earlier stages. It also goes against the heartfelt and emotional evidence that we received at the Finance Committee. It is unlikely that people will ever request more than one copy of a certificate. If they do, we should presume that it is for a valid, humane and possibly emotionally charged reason. Imposing a charge is unnecessary, and no rationale has been provided for it, apart from the possibility of a situation arising in the future. Even then, that could be traumatic and upsetting for people who have suffered a stillbirth, baby loss or other tragedy. For that reason, I oppose the amendment.”
“You say that you have listened to the housing associations and the sector, but NIFHA has said that the proposals have been developed without consultation with the sector and that their full impact has not been assessed. Minister, the statement will mean, despite what you have said, that funding from your Department to housing associations will be cut. What assessment have you made of the impact that that will have on rent increases for people who are struggling already and living in housing association properties?”
“Minister, you talk about a more progressive system and fairer ideas. I want to expand on a previous point: what plans do you have to reform the rates system to disincentivise and financially penalise the people who are leaving tens of thousands of properties empty across the North? It should be illegal to allow properties to lie empty when around 50,000 people are on housing waiting lists. That could address the housing crisis and bring in large amounts of revenue. What plans does your Department have to tackle the issue?”
“— to march, to fight and to kick up a fuss about this.”
“This morning, I call on the Department of Education, the Education Authority and the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust to urgently intervene and work together to provide some clarity and assurances for those families and the wider community to make sure that those services exist for another three years up until primary 7. They say, if it is not broke, do not try to fix it. This service certainly is not broken. It is working and it needs to be extended, and clarity and security needs to be provided. If Departments do not respond, we are getting ready —”
“As things stand, come June next year, 12 pupils will have no idea of where they will go. They will have to leave St Teresa's Primary School with no idea of what support will be in place. For some, that will be their third school in four years, which is totally unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />St Teresa's Primary School supports the call for speech and language provision to remain on site for young people up until primary 7. Nobody, especially children with additional communication needs, deserves to be uprooted and removed from an educational setting just to save pennies and pounds. A small investment in staff at the school for services to be extended for another three years would be absolutely transformative for the pupils, their families and, obviously, the wider community.”
“<BR /> <BR />Today, I pay tribute to all the people working and delivering speech and language units and supports in other settings and to all the young people who avail themselves of those very important services. Disgracefully, only four speech and language-specific units exist across Belfast, and, today, I speak to the issue of pupils in St Teresa's Primary School. I know that the parents and carers are watching this morning. St Teresa's is an excellent mainstream school in west Belfast that provides a speech and language unit to children who need that support and assistance. Shockingly, the support and service stop when the children and young people finish primary 4. There has been no explanation or rationale for why that important and crucial service stops at some arbitrary, plucked-out-of-the-sky date.”
“It has been well documented how important speech and language assistance and support can be for children and young people who have additional communication needs. There is no doubt that investment in speech and language provision through well-paid staff and appropriate support can and does have transformative and life-changing impacts for those young people. We often hear in this Building about the need for early intervention and preventative work to take place. Sometimes it does happen, but quite often it does not. Parents and carers often face barriers to securing the appropriate setting and support, including community support, for their children with additional communication needs. I do not think that it has to be like that.”
“He should go back to the drawing board, listen to the experts, including experts by experience, and implement a proper anti-poverty strategy and fuel poverty strategy.”
“Tackling poverty makes economic sense, but, more important, it is the correct moral and political choice. Poverty is cruel, but it also costs money and costs lives. <BR /> <BR />Tackling poverty requires a strong, ambitious anti-poverty strategy with measurable, time-bound targets. It should be a fully funded strategy that puts money in people's pockets. Instead, we have an unresourced strategy that features reheated actions, strategies that were already in development and next to no concrete actions by the Minister to increase people's income in the face of an unending cost-of-living crisis. It is an insult to the expert panel whose work the Minister binned and ignored. It is a slap in the face of the working-class communities that have been destroyed by poverty and deprivation under the Executive and on the Minister's watch.”
“It is entirely within the Executive's remit to introduce rent controls to stop landlords from rent gouging and exploiting their tenants, but the Minister refuses to act. He continues to parrot landlord propaganda. The state subsidises private landlords to the tune of £300 million each year in the form of housing benefits and universal credit housing costs, but we do not hear a lot about those massive handouts; we focus only on so-called benefit scroungers. <BR /> <BR />Look at unpaid carers. According to economic analysis by Trussell, as others have said, protecting people from hunger and hardship would benefit the economy and public finances by over £2 billion each year, as well as delivering an additional £360 million of savings in public service costs.”
“Locally, the Executive could do plenty of things to reduce costs for people who are struggling to get by. In the past, families living in the North were protected from the harshest impacts of poverty by relatively low housing costs, but, since COVID, housing costs have risen through the roof. Rents here are rising faster than anywhere in Britain, including London. Our wages are stagnating, and workers in the public sector have seen their wages fall in real terms. The poorest quarter of tenants living in the lowest-quality housing in Belfast spend 50% of their monthly income on rent: a huge figure. Private rents continue to rise while inflation soars and wages stagnate. Our poverty levels will skyrocket.”
“For example, the 500 richest people in the world have net worth of more than £8 trillion. Those are the people — billionaires and trillionaires — who are destroying our climate and exploiting workers while our Governments cosy up to them. There is more than enough wealth in our society, but it is in the wrong hands.”
“That is a shameful statistic and an indictment of the powerful parties here and at Westminster, who are content to let the rich get richer while the rest of us are condemned to a life of poverty. <BR /> <BR />Make no mistake about it: failure to tackle the cost of living is a political choice. The spiralling cost of living is a crisis for some people, but it is a bonanza for others. Maybe it is best to call it a "record profiteering crisis".”
“<BR /> <BR />One in three children in my constituency of West Belfast, disgracefully, lives in poverty, and the two-child benefit cap is a key reason for that shameful statistic. I hope that the Chancellor does the right thing and scraps that cruel and nonsensical policy in the upcoming Budget. However, it is hard to remember the last time that the Labour Government made any decision that benefited rather than hurt working-class communities. I am unclear from the answer that the Minister for Communities gave to my question earlier what his plan of action or intention is. <BR /> <BR />One in five households here has not been able to afford heat or power at least once in the past two years. That is 20% of the population living in misery in cold, dark homes. Since 2019, the number of people using food banks here has increased by 93%.”
“As other Members have indicated, the cost-of-living crisis does not make as many headlines these days, but it is still very much with us. Just because prices are not rising by as much as they were maybe two or three years ago, it does not mean that they are not rising or that they have come down. That is felt most acutely by working-class communities and families struggling to feed their children, especially now that the cost of school meals has been hiked. It is felt by low-paid and minimum-wage workers who are denied the bare minimum of pay increases and by unpaid carers, one in four of whom lives in poverty, who save the Executive £16 million per day in care costs.”
“Minister, you will be aware that unionist parties are trying to compare your action, like for like, to what the Education Minister did in recent weeks. Do you agree that doing all that we can, including ministerial directions, against a state that is involved in apartheid, and trying to isolate it, is not the same as a Minister's engaging in a propaganda trip to a rogue genocidal apartheid state?”
“Thank you, Minister, sort of. If they do decide to scrap the policy, presumably there will be a financial benefit, with extra money coming here to cover the cost. If not, will you give a commitment that your Department will cover it?”
“<BR /> <BR />The introduction of digital IDs will make the lives of older people, in addition to ethnic minorities, significantly more difficult if they are unable or unwilling to access digital services. That could seriously impede their ability to participate in public life and access vital public services. <BR /> <BR />The scheme is based entirely on exclusion and discrimination. It is designed to assess who may have access to our public services and who may not. Those in the conservative camp will decry the scheme for its threat to our privacy, but they will fail to recognise that that is exactly where those hateful, exclusionary, anti-immigrant sentiments and ideas lead. We reject both the rhetoric being pushed by the right and the pandering of the British Government to that anti-immigrant narrative.”
“In addition, it is likely that people of colour and those of migrant backgrounds would be subject to a disproportionate level of ID checks, which would create a further hostile environment for racial minorities. The existing eVisa digital ID scheme has been flagged for giving an inaccurate record of people's IDs and how it operates. <BR /> <BR />The British Government claim that they are simply playing catch-up with other countries that have adopted digital IDs, but that is nothing to boast about. Alarmingly, it was reported that authorities in Egypt and Indonesia require religious minorities to renounce their faith in order to obtain an ID card, and the picture being painted in the US is even more bleak.”
“The ID scheme that was proposed under Blair's Government suffered a major data breach, so how can we expect people to support this ID scheme, knowing that the Government are incapable of protecting our data? Just this year, the Legal Aid Agency suffered a cyberattack that led to a breach of legal aid applicants' data, including their contact details, dates of birth and criminal history. As has been mentioned, the digital ID schemes in Norway, Estonia, Poland and India have all been subject to cyberattacks that have put people at risk. <BR /> <BR />Crucially, excessive monitoring and surveillance would give the state the ability to suppress and censor political dissent with ease, and we know whom it would come after, because it comes after people already.”
“Yes, indeed: what about Moy Park? The list goes on, Mr Frew. <BR /> <BR />There are huge privacy issues in relation to the proposed scheme. It is not clear what data would be shared with government bodies or private companies or whether discredited companies such as Fujitsu would be lined up for contracts. I hope that the Member to my right will also oppose that company's getting further contracts. A digital ID system would risk excessive data disclosure and data sharing if there were to be long interactions between individuals and services. <BR /> <BR />Moreover, the One Login system that will manage the IDs is reportedly not secure and is vulnerable to cybersecurity attacks.”
“Indeed, what about big pharma? Do you want to talk about big pharma?”
“This is not going to be effective. It is simply an attempt by Labour to look tough on immigration. It is all about the optics and about chasing Reform. The only tangible impact that it will have is on our privacy. The introduction of digital IDs is just another attempt to expand digital infrastructure for a surveillance state. I welcome the new-found scepticism, especially to my right, of big capital and the surveillance state, and I hope that Members will take the logical conclusions from that.”
“The introduction of digital IDs in France and Belgium has not prevented unauthorised migrants from working or living there; rather, it has led to more scapegoating of them.”
“It will not make some migrants leave; it will simply make their lives more difficult by forcing them into exploitative off-the-books work and unsafe housing, further marginalising them.”
“George Orwell was referenced. Members would do well to read 'Homage to Catalonia', because there are a few lessons in that book for some in the House. <BR /> <BR />The digital ID scheme was proposed by the British Government in a supposed attempt to curb illegal immigration, although no human can be classed as "illegal" in any humane society. The proposers of the scheme claim that preventing asylum seeks from accessing work, housing and other public services will deter others from entering the country, as they say, illegally. Not only does that show a lack of understanding of why people migrate but it is completely false. It will not deter people from migrating or seeking asylum, something that is as old as time itself.”
“Do not get carried away. I have not spoken yet.”
“I support the motion, and, surprising as it may sound, I support the amendment.”
“Thank you, Minister. Support for something is one thing; concrete action is another. Minister, you will know that there is growing frustration at the snail's pace at which movement on an EPA's being established is happening. Will you give a guarantee to the House, environmentalists and people who are interested in Lough Neagh and all the other environmental disasters that are out there that an independent EPA will be legislated for before the end of the mandate?”
“It is my understanding — I am happy to be corrected — that, in this Building, there are at least 41 staff who are on agency contracts. That is shocking and completely unacceptable. The Assembly needs to lead by example. In respect of what the Chair of the Audit Committee said, I say that workers do not want thanks or to be patronised; they want decent terms and conditions, and that has to mean proper permanent contracts. I urge the Assembly Commission to get on with that really important work.”
“It has closed its ears to those matters. I welcome any information on any work that has been commissioned by the Commission to re-examine those contracts and look again at the huge spend of public money and the practices of those organisations. Commercial sensitivity simply will not cut it. <BR /> <BR />The final point that I want to raise is about a question for written answer that I submitted to the Commission earlier this year. The answer stated:”
“It is a moderate demand to say that we should not do business with it and should stop spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of public money on its equipment. It has been described as the "Polaroid of our times". Polaroid was a company that was marred in controversy because it continued to trade with the apartheid system in South Africa in the 70s and afterwards. <BR /> <BR />We should also turn our attention to companies, such as Pi Comms and Aramark, that operate in this Building and have a public record of mistreating their workers. In the case of Aramark, it was completely discredited as it was directly involved in the administration of direct provision in the South. Workers in this Building from both organisations have raised serious concerns about those companies. The Commission has been silent.”
“Will MLAs be forced to use food banks, get into debt or take on second jobs to pay their rent, mortgage or bills? I would hazard a guess and say that the answer is no. I put on record again my opposition to a lucrative hike in MLAs' pay. <BR /> <BR />The annual Assembly Commission budget offers a chance to look at whom the Commission does business with. I have raised the issue of Hewlett-Packard (HP) devices in these Buildings multiple times. HP is a company that is complicit in genocide and supporting Israel, and it actively administers the digital infrastructure for Israeli apartheid. It is involved in supplying the computer hardware for the Israeli occupation forces, the Israel Police and many others.”
“I will make a few brief comments. The irony should be lost on nobody that health and social care (HSC) workers had to fight tooth and nail for pay parity just to secure a below-inflation pay increase of 3·6%. By contrast, the Independent Remuneration Board will likely recommend a pay increase of much more than that for MLAs. Criminal barristers are considering taking industrial action, as are Translink workers and teachers, potentially, while waiting for their pay award. That is not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people working in low- and minimum-wage jobs in the private sector, retail and elsewhere. Will politicians be left waiting for the Department of Finance to find the cash for what is set to be an astronomical pay rise?”
“I thank them for their time and work in the position. <BR /> <BR />Catherine Connolly is very much her own person. Despite similarities in viewpoints and geographical location — they are both Galwegian Gaeilgeoirí — I doubt that Michael D Higgins can add keepy-up champion to his long list of incredible achievements and accomplishments. Despite all the propaganda against Catherine, she is a person of conviction and principle who cannot be bought and sold, and people do not like that. She will be a crucial voice for peace and justice and in welcoming all who live here, North and South. Whilst disturbing news has emerged in recent days about individuals plotting to bomb a mosque in Galway, Catherine will be a voice for rejecting such hate in Galway, Dublin, Belfast, Derry or elsewhere. Go n-éirí an bóthar leat, a Catherine.”
“Higgins has also been a clear stalwart of Palestine. Despite the misrepresentation of his position, he has lambasted those who have remained silent. He said that, if we ignored and remained silent on Gaza, it would be a moral failure. Some Members in the House would do well to listen to his lesson on that. Crucially, while the war drums are banged in Germany and across Europe, in Britain and by some in the South, including columnists who will not don military fatigues themselves but want working-class kids to kill and to be killed in the scramble for war, Michael D Higgins has been an important, sensible and sane voice for peace. <BR /> <BR />Míle buíochas le Micheál agus lena bhean chéile, Sabina.”
“He talked about Christmas being an important time for people and the fact that a lot of people do not have a home to live in or go to and that many have been forced to travel and leave the South because of the crisis. <BR /> <BR />Uachtarán”
“I thank the Member for raising the Matter of the Day. Given how turbulent the world has been over the last 14 or so years, it has been really important to have a figurehead in the Irish state who has stood tall with principles that have helped us carve out a better, fairer and more just world. Given that the familial head of state in Britain has been mired in scandal, controversy and crisis over recent years and weeks, it has been essential to have a figurehead who has stood on the right side of history and stands on the right side in the present. <BR /> <BR />On homelessness, Michael D Higgins understood that there is a crisis in housing that has been caused by government policy and a lack of action in the South. He used his last Christmas message to refer to that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I said both things in my comments. I said that he should not have gone to Israel and that doing so should be enough for him to go from office, but I also stated that he broke the ministerial code and blurred the lines when it came to actions that he should not have taken as a Minister who represents everybody. I mentioned both things today.”
“I am sceptical as to whether it will happen at all, but we should, at least, not vote for the amendment for that reason.”
“I thank the Member for that. I did not accuse his party of anything. His intervention was slightly defensive, but that is his right. The Member should be clear: if proposals are made about reform in this place, shout about them; say them. He made some points with which I generally agree, but, again, he should vote for the motion as it is. The motion is not ideal, but voting for it is better than amending it to remove the responsibility of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to bring forward proposals to reform this place. It should be on them to ensure that that is done quickly and that the can is not kicked down the road to the Committee. It is an important Committee, but I argue that people are trying to put work on it to absolve the First Minister and deputy First Minister of the responsibility to act.”
“I will in a second. <BR /> <BR />I am sceptical about whether those proposals will ever come forward, but, at the very least, that line should remain in the motion. <BR /> <BR />I give way to the Member.”
“I am sceptical about whether those proposals will ever be —.”
“<BR /> <BR />The motion talks about "institutional reform", which is needed. I obviously agree with that. It should also include people who are othered in the House, including me, when their votes do not count, as Alliance Party Members have said. We should look at the recommendations of the NI Affairs Committee. It stated that the Assembly Speaker should be elected — no disrespect — by a two-thirds majority of MLAs in the House. We should take such a position, rather than having backroom stitch-ups and deals. It also proposed changing the titles of First Minister and deputy First Minister to joint First Minister and having joint First Minister elections that would to be open to people from any party, including those who are others. <BR /> <BR />I have issues with the Sinn Féin amendment. Parts of it are OK, but it removes the part that:”
“I am concerned that it could mean "protect Stormont at all costs", and I do not support that position. It was the correct thing for Sinn Féin to pull down Stormont in early 2017 over RHI — our party called for it in 2016 — when hundreds of millions of pounds of public money was splurged by the DUP. The only way for Arlene Foster to face some limited accountability at the time was to pull down Stormont. So, I do not support keeping it up at all costs. <BR /> <BR />During the period of welfare reform, there should have been a political crisis caused by pulling down the institutions, rather than hammering working-class and poor people. Given the context that we may be approaching, with more austerity Budgets, as we have heard today, and damaging Budgets, protecting Stormont at all costs is not a position that we should advocate.”
“Thank you. <BR /> <BR />My next line was going to be that the Commissioner for Standards has an important role. I remind the Member — I know that he was not here at the time; I was not either — that, in 2011, his party leader called for a motion of no confidence in Conor Murphy. I do not know which one it is. Following the logic of your argument, that will embolden Ministers and prevent MLAs from bringing forward motions of no confidence, which is understandable if your party is in the Executive, but I do not understand it from a party and a Member who is not in the Executive. <BR /> <BR />I have issues with the mention of political stability in the amendment from Sinn Féin and with the motion generally. Obviously, it will mean different things to different people.”
“As others have said, today really shows the absurdity and the lack of accountability that we have in the House when it comes to holding Ministers to account. We had a democratic vote encompassing several parties, with a majority of MLAs — 47 — voting for a motion of no confidence in a Minister, while 33 voted against, and still, for this week at least, the Education Minister remains in place. That shows you how accountability mechanisms do not really exist in this Building and how Ministers can effectively do what they want. <BR /> <BR />I am therefore bamboozled at the amendment in the name of Mr Gaston. Effectively, he wants to limit the already limited or, I would argue, non-existent accountability mechanisms that are in place to hold Ministers to account.”