Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“I believe that the DUP has decided to recreate that controversy on the Floor by proposing to support the controversial, widely condemned IHRA definition in the full knowledge that it would quell condemnation of an apartheid state. The IHRA definition and its inclusion in the motion is wholly divisive, which is a quick way to neuter any challenge to discrimination, but, then, anyone with any interest in challenging discrimination and racism would not have paraded a Trump flag outside Westminster, which DUP MPs did. They would not have whipped up sectarian tensions in recent months. They would have no truck with the idea that LGBTQ+ people need to be fixed or that the Churches should be —”
“No, thanks. <BR /> <BR />— the apartheid actions of Israel, the Assembly would be choosing to put itself on the wrong side of history and to see such a persecution buried. <BR /> <BR />It is also significant, as highlighted by Jewish Voice for Just Peace, that the DUP has chosen to support the adoption of the IHRA definition when others, such as the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism, exist. That declaration is not perfect because it reinforces attempts to couple antisemitism with the struggle for Palestinian liberation, but it correctly aligns the fight against antisemitism with a struggle against racism. It recognises that antisemitism and anti-Zionism are "categorically different". It was developed by a group of Jewish and Israeli scholars who deemed the IHRA definition to have:”
“On today of all days, if the Assembly were to support adopting the IHRA definition, which hampers our ability to condemn —”
“Those are reasons enough, in my opinion, for people to oppose the motion. <BR /> <BR />It is incredibly significant that, today, Human Rights Watch published a report called 'A Threshold Crossed', which details how Israeli authorities have subjugated Palestinians because of their identity. That report states:”
“That is not from me; it is from the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. As referred to earlier, Kenneth Stern, the person who authored that definition, has criticised how it has been used to delegitimise criticism of Israeli policies. The Belfast Trades Council, in its correspondence with MLAs, stated how:”
“There is much that one can agree with in the examples given in the IHRA definition, but it includes other, highly problematic examples. For that reason, the IHRA definition has been opposed by over 40 Jewish groups globally, as we have heard already, including local groups such as Jewish Voice for Just Peace, Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and more than 1,400 lawyers and academics, including 56 scholars who specialise in the study of antisemitism. They oppose the definition because it wrongly conflates antisemitism with genuine and legitimate criticism of the state of Israel, despite what others have said in the debate. <BR /> <BR />I refer Members to correspondence from the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, which represents over 200,000 workers here. It says:”
“I will speak and vote in favour of the amendment and against the motion. We have seen a re-emergence of antisemitism, which is particularly worrying in the context of an advancing far right across Europe and the world. Antisemitism has a barbaric history. The onus is on all of us to challenge any form of antisemitism and stand in solidarity with our Jewish community when it experiences antisemitism, to challenge the rotten roots of all discrimination in society and to condemn all forms of antisemitism in my constituency, in other constituencies and across the world. <BR /> <BR />I find it disappointing, therefore, that the motion calls for support for the controversial and divisive IHRA definition of antisemitism.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Given that the Minister's party colleagues have been rightly critical of the 1% pay offer made by the Tory Government to our healthcare workers and described it as "a slap in the face", is it hypocritical of him to make a 1% pay offer to public-sector workers? If that 1% pay offer for healthcare workers was a slap in the face, is the 1% that he proposes a slap in the face?”
“Is the Member concerned, as I am, that those who defend the current system tend to focus on "pulling up your socks" stories and not on the people who are being failed by academic selection, including grammar schools?”
“What is the reason for maintaining the grammar system?”
“Thank you, Minister, for giving way. You may have noted that Chris Cook of the 'Financial Times', which is hardly a radical organisation or publication, stated:”
“I find it difficult to support the legislation going forward without a better explanation for not conducting a proper review and a proper explanation of how the Bill could guarantee that a for-profit organisation is not set to line its pockets further with the subsidy. For that reason, I look forward to some clarity from the Minister.”
“When we consider the impact of gambling addiction on society, we see that there is clearly a great need for tighter regulation, but the Bill would see the deregulation of funding and those who stand to make a profit from gambling gaining even more. <BR /> <BR />In the light of all that, I find it disappointing that the Minister and the Committee seem to have agreed to plough ahead with the amendment when the option was on the table to conduct a fundamental review that would explore future options. In the context of a pandemic, when large businesses have availed themselves of significant government money and smaller businesses, traders and workers have suffered comparatively, it is simply not good enough to say that we do not have time to complete such a review.”
“Whatever purpose the legislation might have had in past decades, the amendment would be much more of a change in direction than just a technical tweak. My worry is that it will open the door to a worse problem, with big businesses able to avail themselves freely of a state-directed subsidy in order to maximise their profits. The industry is already known for questionable practices on gambling and animal rights. Anyone who knows anything about the gambling industry will tell you that the bookie always wins, not the punter. It is always the working class and poor people who lose out to the gambling industry, in devastating ways at times.”
“This proposed legislation has moved through the Assembly quite quickly. While I do not sit on the Committee that scrutinises it, I do have some concerns that I want the Minister to address as best he can. <BR /> <BR />This legislation is being presented as a minor technical change to allow the new owner of Down Royal racecourse to avail itself of a system of funding that has been in place for decades. However, it appears to me, and indeed to some who responded to the consultation, that the outworkings of the Bill would or could further deregulate funding in an industry that is in need of more regulation. By my reading, this Bill will allow a fully commercial and for-profit firm owned by the Dublin-based Merrion Property Group to avail itself of subsidy based on taxation of other companies — often, smaller traders.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I note the figures that she gave, but, obviously, they are still too high, in the opinion of many people. Has the Minister or her Department carried out any research into the impact of the temporary promotion of staff in her Department, including the retention of workforce or the mental health and well-being of staff? Many will think that, if they are fit for a temporary promotion, why not a permanent one?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. I thank everybody for their work over the last few days in tackling this fire, particularly the Fire and Rescue Service for its critical work. It is, of course, gutting to see such devastation to an area of diverse flora and fauna. I have spoken to Fire and Rescue Service people and I know how overworked, under-resourced and overstretched they are. Given the events of the last weekend, the high number of fires that took place last year, the possibility of more fires, climate breakdown and uncertain weather patterns, how confident is the Minister that our excellent fire service is adequately resourced and financed to deal with these challenges?”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, how obscene is it that people can get access to cancer services if they have several thousand pounds in their bank account? To me, that suggests a two-tier health service, and that needs to come to an end immediately.”
“The health service saved many lives this year, and so many people are forever indebted to those who work in it, so invest in it and stop starving it of essential funding. That is a fundamental and important point. <BR /> <BR />I am also concerned about an over-reliance on what is often called the independent sector. It is not, in fact, independent but heavily reliant on public money. From what I can see, there is a pervasive idea from some quarters in the House that it is OK to funnel large sums of public money through private healthcare providers whilst, at the same time, claiming that we do not have enough money for our health service to treat people who are on waiting lists. We are chasing our tail around in circles, and that needs to be addressed. We need to invest in public services and the NHS.”
“<BR /> <BR />In coming out of a deadly pandemic, what better way to show all the health workers and all the people who have had appointments delayed or cancelled that we recognise their horrendous situation than by saying that we will rapidly recruit more NHS staff to deal with the waiting lists and also to give health workers a break. We were thousands of nurses short before the pandemic, so we have a big gap to fill at the moment. <BR /> <BR />So far, the Executive have been bereft of any transformative measures to deal with those problems. Rather, they have continued on as usual. Frankly, we also need to bin strategies that further chop up, restrict, rationalise or cut back our health service, be they Bengoa or whatever else.”
“To do that, we will need to change tack from the approach that had been adopted for too long before the current Health Minister's tenure. That approach was to speak about and focus mainly on budget limits and constraints, the need for rationalisation and the need to live within our means. Such figures were trotted out too often. If we are to deal with the waiting lists, we need an urgent and rapid recruitment plan for NHS nurses and staff so that people are not forced to wait 10 years or longer for various treatments.”
“However, communities in which there is deprivation and underinvestment are more prone to cancer, and members of those communities have shorter life expectancy than people in more affluent parts of Belfast and across the North. <BR /> <BR />Unless we address low pay, poverty and economic insecurity, health disparities will continue. We can have the best cancer strategy in the world — I hope that we do — but it will be built on sand if we do not tackle those issues. This is a political issue as well as a health issue.”
“We have to take every measure possible to ensure that those who were failed before are not failed again. <BR /> <BR />While it is true that anybody can face a cancer diagnosis, there is a greater risk of cancer for people living in deprived or working-class communities, and that has to be inserted in the debate. People in those communities face greater levels of stress and are under greater economic pressure and so on. They face greater barriers in accessing healthy, nutritious food supplies. They face greater levels of pollution from motorways, traffic jams, industrial pollution and so on. <BR /> <BR />In theory, everybody could get cancer. Hopefully not, but it is a possibility.”
“I send my best wishes to my fellow West Belfast MLA Mr McCann. I hope that he gets a honeymoon sometime soon. <BR /> <BR />Today's motion is important in supporting the provision of services for all those people in my constituency and beyond who need important and urgent cancer treatments. We heard figures from Mr Dickson, the Chair of the Health Committee and Macmillan Cancer Support that show that, last year, 1,300 patients missed a cancer diagnosis appointment. Moreover, 5,000 red-flag cancer procedures were cancelled. Those are, to be frank, very stark and worrying figures. It goes without saying that the past year was incredibly difficult for many people, none more so than for people who have or who may have cancer and issues connected to it.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Speaker said previously that all Members on the speaking list would be called in the debate. I was on the speaking list, and I think that others might have been. Can you advise on that point?”
“I offer my sympathy and thoughts to all the people affected by the Dr Watt inquiry. My understanding is that some of the people affected by the recall have been told that, if they suffer from a functional neurological disorder, they may have to seek services in England. Will the Minister confirm whether that is the case? How many people will be affected by that? Will one of the lines of inquiry include looking at pharmaceutical companies and their practices on pushing particular drugs, especially for epilepsy and other neurological issues, to doctors and patients?”
“Thanks to the Minister for his statement. Many people will be left scratching their head as the Executive once again struggle to spend money. At any time, that would be disastrous, but, when food bank usage has soared, workers are facing pay freezes and cuts, and child poverty is soaring, it is almost insulting. What would the Minister say to those who wonder whether the Executive are up to the task of meeting economic and societal problems if they cannot even spend the money that they currently have?”
“Thanks to the Minister for his statement. I am concerned that there appears to be a continuation of relying on the independent and private sector to tackle waiting lists. What efforts are being made to increase the number of staff? We are understaffed, as he stated. Before the pandemic, we were 2,000 or 3,000 nurses short. What efforts are being made to increase the number of staff in our health service? Specifically, what work is he doing with his Executive colleagues to remove the barriers that currently prevent refugees or asylum seekers who have healthcare training, including those who are trained nurses and other healthcare workers, from working due to the racist and reactionary immigration policies that we have?”
“— that they have funded, catered to and legitimised for so long. They are the groups that act as gatekeepers of funding and continue to exert control over working-class communities. I would like to say much more, but, unfortunately, I have no time left.”
“Unfortunately, I have limited time to explain that today in terms of supporting the motion, which I do not believe provides an alternative to the same old politics that have fostered division across working-class communities across our society and have enabled sectarian tensions to grow. For that reason, I tried to submit an amendment. <BR /> <BR />Today, we have heard some talk with no sense of irony or hypocrisy about a law-and-order response. Some of those parties and Ministers cosied up to paramilitaries, who, by definition, are not upholders of the law and, in the last week, have engaged in organising people to wreak havoc out in the streets. Moreover, it is hypocritical that some in the Executive now condemn the same paramilitary groups —”
“Some of us were there last night to appeal for calm and for people to desist from the rioting. I say, "Fair play" to all the community workers and youth workers who gathered. They were out last night doing their best to appeal for calm. Today, like last night, I stand with the families at interface areas who are once again living in fear. Cars have been stolen, areas have been petrol-bombed, and there has been much trouble on top of that. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that everybody here condemns the violence, as I do, but I am afraid that that is where the cohesion ends for me.”
“Since the meeting started, we have heard that, in Belfast, bus workers have walked out against sectarianism, violence and intimidation. We have to send our solidarity to them today and going forward. The trade union movement will be incredibly crucial in the period ahead. I also send my solidarity to the driver and passengers of the bus that was hijacked yesterday. I extend my sympathies and best wishes to Kevin Scott, a journalist who was brutally attacked yesterday. No worker should be subjected to that kind of activity. They are providing a public service in the middle of a pandemic. <BR /> <BR />Last night I was at Lanark Way, an interface in west Belfast, where I witnessed crowds gathering on either side and petrol bombs flying over the so-called peace wall.”
“— and you are fair game. Establishment politicians, on the other hand, are untouchable. I will continue to call out that rank hypocrisy going forward.”
“Otherwise, I imagine that it will be very difficult to answer this question: how can it be that those who took the most stringent measures to socially distance and who met in the smallest groups were targeted with a heavy-handed police response, yet those who did not so much as wear a mask were not? It would be the reverse, if the police responses were about COVID at all, but they are not. They are about who you are and why you are gathering, and the state has sent out a clear message: organise around police brutality, violence against women by a police officer or collusion by the state —”
“It is fitting though, as a report shows how Stormont's racial equality strategy has utterly failed and the First Minister refuses to meet the leadership of the trade union movement in the North. It is disgraceful stuff. <BR /> <BR />I want to issue a warning. If the case against the Black Lives Matter protesters is allowed to proceed through the courts and results in prosecutions, the impact on the lives and careers of those protesters will have been caused by the Executive and their Ministers. It will be on their hands, so do something about it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Similarly, the fact that Michelle O'Neill has refused to retract her comments about the police response to the Black Lives Matter protests being proportionate, when she was involved in a gathering that appeared to be less socially distant, is hypocritical. I have asked her before and will put it to her again: when will she apologise for the defence of the PSNI's actions and stand on the side of those who were disproportionately targeted on that day? <BR /> <BR />In the wake of Minister O'Neill not being fined or prosecuted, the Executive should move swiftly to ensure that prosecutions for others gathering are quashed. Ordinary people, including the most marginalised, have been targeted while those in power and the bosses who force people into unsafe workplaces have been left untouched. What a terrible look for the Executive.”
“Those people faced police repression, fines, threats of prosecutions and arrests for some. When you compare that with the likes of how Michelle O'Neill or Sammy Wilson have been treated, the disparity could not be clearer. <BR /> <BR />What astounds me further is the brazen hypocrisy. Sammy Wilson has made a habit of actively flouting the regulations, including going into an ice cream shop without wearing a mask. He did not care how dangerous it was. He did not like the regulations, and he knew that he could flout them with impunity. What a brass neck then for Sammy or his party to lead the charge against others who have broken or may have broken regulations during the pandemic.”
“As, I know, some in the Chamber and some who have called in via video today are tired of hearing, a gathering of people taking a stand against racial injustice was targeted, first, by politicians in this room, who passed last-minute regulations; secondly, by the police, who kettled people in a way that was unsafe and broke social distancing measures; and, thirdly, by the justice system, which continues to go after them for prosecutions. None of those gatherings of people had the benefit of claiming that the regulations were too complicated. None of those groups had the benefit of being offered police assistance to work through and manage their events; in fact, with the Black Lives Matter protest, the police went after organisers the night before the event attempting to hand out cautions before any gathering had taken place.”
“For some time now I have strongly rebuked the PSNI for its disproportionate approach to gatherings across the North throughout the pandemic. There seems to be a thread that links the events that have been strongly targeted by the police that we cannot ignore today or during the rest of the pandemic. It appears that those standing up against systemic oppression have been treated differently from those who are in or are well-connected to Stormont. A gathering predominantly of women protesting against sexism and violence after the murder of Sarah Everard a few weeks ago was targeted and fines up to £500 doled out. A few months ago, an event with a handful of people commemorating the Sean Graham bookmakers' massacre ended seriously and faced unnecessary hostility from the PSNI.”
“People Before Profit have consistently opposed police powers to fine and prosecute people for gathering throughout the pandemic because the virus should be approached with a proper public health response, not a tougher police state. The Executive utterly failed to deliver the health response that we needed. Endowing the police with more powers has created the conditions for minorities to be targeted. When the debates around the funeral kicked off last year, we had no truck, therefore, with calls for prosecutions against Michelle O'Neill or, indeed, others for attending funerals, particularly when such a spectacularly disparate approach had been taken to other gatherings by those often leading the charge. <BR /> <BR />That is not where the disparities end, of course.”
“At the time, I and others in the Chamber pushed for a targeted strategy for women and girls, recognising that they are overwhelmingly the victims of gender-based crime, but we were told that it was not the remit, at the time, of the Justice Minister to oversee such a strategy. I have no doubt that any such strategy should be cross-departmental, with funding committed from each Department and prioritised by various Ministers. The Department of Justice should play a leading role to tackle the ways that women are further victimised and traumatised by the criminal justice system here. <BR /> <BR />We support the motion and amendment today, which strengthens the onus on the Executive to act, and we are adamant that this issue cannot be shirked nor the buck passed. It must be prioritised and funded right across Departments.”
“<BR /> <BR />How disgraceful that a Member of the Assembly attends protests outside health clinics in Newry alongside people waving traumatising images and crucifixes of women and normalises that behaviour. <BR /> <BR />Verbal and emotional abuse towards women is unacceptable and has to be challenged and called out. As I said, during the debate on the Justice Minister's Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Bill recently:”
“This has already been mentioned, but it is quite shocking that we have generations and generations of young people who can access sexual images and pornography at the touch of a button when they still do not have access to proper consent classes in schools, in which young people can discuss these things openly. That really does baffle the mind. We also need to desegregate schools so that boys and girls — young men and young women — are being educated together. That is very important. <BR /> <BR />There is also the utter failure to address the lack of conviction rates for rape and assault and to put in place measures to prevent questions in court and reporting in the press that normalises the behaviour of talking about women's sexual history and, as has already been referred to, disgracefully showing their underwear in court.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. As I am sure is the case in her constituency, I hear too often in my constituency of cases of women having non-molestation orders (NMOs) and having to take action against abusive partners or ex-partners. I therefore really look forward to the work coming forward from the Minister on dealing with that. <BR /> <BR />Some of those women who are in abusive relationships have to carry their abuser's child, potentially tying them forever to that person because they still cannot access basic abortion services in our society. Basic consent and respect, to which Members have referred, is still not taught to many children in schools, despite the overwhelming evidence that such early intervention is crucial to preventing sexual crimes against women.”
“As has been referred to already, hard-working organisations such as Women's Aid and Nexus have had to fight very hard indeed for rape crisis services. Women who face intimidation and violence in their home are still eligible for fewer intimidation points than someone who is facing a paramilitary threat. What message does that send out to victims of abuse? Some of those women in abusive relationships —.”
“Domestic abuse crimes made up almost a fifth of police recorded crime during that period. We have heard of the impact of COVID on victims of domestic violence, and those figures are a reflection of the increase in such crimes, but domestic violence rates were unacceptable long before the pandemic. Support for women in those situations has been unacceptable for far too long. From the underfunding of rape crisis services while the number of recorded rapes rose to the implementation of welfare reform, which has hindered the ability of women to leave abusive relationships because their husband is often the sole recipient of their household's earnings, the Assembly has made conscious decision after conscious decision to underfund, cut and limit the help that women across the North need in order to protect themselves.”
“I begin by thanking the Members for bringing the motion and the amendment to the House, both of which I will be supporting today. As others have noted, the motion is extremely timely, given the devastatingly tragic deaths of Karen McClean and Stacy Nell. It is hard to imagine the grief that their families and friends feel at their loss, and I extend my sympathy to all of them today. Although the motion is timely because of the tragic circumstances that saw two women murdered, it is also long overdue. The senseless deaths of women before Karen and Stacy are evidence of that. <BR /> <BR />Violence against women that has not led to their death is also something that is far too common. From the beginning of October 2019 to the end of September 2020, over 32,000 domestic abuse incidents were reported across the North.”
“I hope that the Minister can assure us that that will certainly not happen on his watch.”
“People who have navigated us through the pandemic need more than that, and anything resembling a pay offer of 1% or 2% is not only offensive and insulting to those people but risks the future viability of the NHS. If, at the end of a pandemic, health workers are offered crumbs, who could blame any of them for deciding to up sticks and go elsewhere to be respected and paid properly? Those issues have to be addressed. We need to implement a fair and proper pay rise for all our healthcare workers. <BR /> <BR />Finally. it is concerning to see the worrying rise of COVID cases in the South. The number of daily cases is increasing. Also, cases are rising across Europe, with another wave beginning. Hopefully, the Executive will learn the lessons from that and not implement changes to lift the restrictions too quickly.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also have to address the fact that we have a wholly inadequate level of financial support for people to socially isolate. The grant system that is in place is unacceptable and insufficient. Reports suggest that only 2% of people were able to get the £500 payment, or the greater amount of it, and that only 12% were able avail themselves of that more than once. As more restrictions will likely be lifted in the next weeks and months and more people are put into work, people should not be forced to choose between whether they should isolate or not for fear that they will not be financially protected by the state or that they will not be able to pay their rent or their bills. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to nurses and healthcare workers, claps, platitudes and nice words from me or anybody else do not cut it.”