Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
The complete record
Every one of 4,137 lines we hold for Gerry Carroll, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 64 of 83.
“Almost a year into the pandemic, we, unfortunately, know the seriousness of the virus and how deadly and dangerous it is. I offer my sincere condolences to the thousands of people who have lost a loved one during the pandemic. I also offer my thoughts to everybody in our community who has been impacted by the virus. <BR /> <BR />I have repeatedly raised the need for the Executive to implement a zero-COVID strategy in order to tackle the pandemic. All along, I have been met with Ministers engaging in obfuscation and deflection, and, today, the First Minister repeated that.”
“Given the recent disgraceful comments by the MP for East Derry, does the Minister have any concern that one party in the Executive has a public representative with such reprehensible, poisonous and dangerous views? Is she concerned that if that party does not take swift action against that MP, it will send a terrible message to all victims of hate crime?”
“It is widely regarded that the Executive's handling of the pandemic has been catastrophic, when compared with countries that have had a low number of deaths and have returned to some normality as they have developed a zero-COVID approach. Many hope that lessons will be learned, but I remain unconvinced. <BR /> <BR />If the pandemic can be thought of as a cancer, Professor Mark Shrime said that governments have adopted an essential oils approach: perfunctory, with half measures and wishful thinking. That is true here. Given that, will the First Minister commit to engaging with those who are advocating for a zero-COVID strategy and commit to adopting one on this island with her counterparts in the South?”
“We cannot find ourselves 10 years down the line, if the legislation is not doing what it says on the tin, debating how well intentioned, thoroughly researched and consulted upon it was.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, I would like to ask the Minister whether the consultation responses to this Bill and those to the Domestic Abuse and Family Proceedings Bill have changed her mind on the need for a commissioner and a targeted strategy for women and girls. It is my understanding that that role could be accommodated within this legislation but is not. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate the inclusion of a clause stating that guidance will be issued to the Chief Constable on exercising the functions of the Bill. Given the failure to understand these issues or take them seriously currently, and the impact that that has had on victims, I stress that regular scrutiny of and subsequent reports on how this law is being implemented are imperative. Someone tasked with doing that and other issues would help that cause.”
“I am sure that the Minister is aware of the recent "spy cops'" Bill, which generated a furore among victims of the police officers responsible for infiltrating not only groups on the left but paramilitary groups locally, engaging in unacceptable behaviour ranging from abuse to more serious offences. In many cases, women were victimised by some of those officers, whose actions were deemed to be within the rule of law and for the purpose of preventing crime. In what circumstances does the Minister believe that an officer preventing a crime could use that as a potential defence for stalking or harassing behaviour as outlined in this Bill? Under which law or statutory provision does she foresee the potential to use that defence?”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 5 amends the Magistrates' Courts (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 so that perpetrators of stalking or abusive behaviour lose the right to a jury trial. I wonder whether the Minister could explain the rationale for that and whether it is restricted to so-called minor incidents or incidents viewed as minor, and how that would be adjudicated. Generally, we would have issues with non-jury trials. Without further explanation in the explanatory and financial memorandum, that needs some clarity. <BR /> <BR />Clause 1(5) states that an adequate of stalking or harassment would be that the perpetrator:”
“That not only allows behaviour to escalate, putting victims at further risk, but leads to an understandable lack of belief in a system that fails victims. I hope that the Minister can, in her closing remarks, set out what measures can be taken to ensure that, when victims come forward to the police, they are not left feeling that their experience is not being taken seriously. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, the issue of stalking relates not only to an unfit law but to a culture within the PSNI and society generally of minimising the risks of stalking. Therefore, action on both is needed to address that situation. I would like to hear what measures the Minister proposes to take to address those fundamental issues.”
“Therefore, I am sure that the Minister will agree that there is an onus on the House to ensure that this new legislation does not allow women to fall through the cracks or have their experiences devalued, and that goes beyond just this legislation. There is a job to do in tackling the issues of misogyny and inequality. <BR /> <BR />Clauses 6 to 17 enable the issuing of protection orders, as has been mentioned, and interim stalking protection orders, which, it seems, would be important to ensure that victims feel safe and that perpetrators are deterred while a full order is being considered. <BR /> <BR />One issue that many victims of stalking raise is the lack of understanding by the police of the dangers and nature of stalking. That was acknowledged in the consultation responses to the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />As I said when the Minister introduced the Final Stage of the Domestic Abuse and Family Proceedings Bill, I have little faith that the change needed to tackle the wider issues of misogyny and inequality for women, which give rise to many of these crimes and experiences, will come from within these four walls. However, we can be certain that such change is hindered by the way the Assembly and Executive have perpetuated such inequalities by denying women bodily autonomy, stripping them of financial autonomy through universal credit measures and so on. <BR /> <BR />We need a holistic approach to how the lives and experiences of women in our communities can be improved so that they can be enabled to feel safe and live freely.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on the need for new stalking legislation and the Bill presented by the Minister. I begin by thanking the victims of stalking and their families who have spoken up publicly about what happened to them and how the current law has failed them. Without their voices and stories being shared, the true scale and nature of the issue, as well as the failure of institutions to take it seriously, may never have been recognised. As is often the case, women in particular are forced to speak up, even when that may feel traumatic and intrusive, before the issues that impact on them disproportionately are addressed, whether that is domestic abuse, the disgraceful and inexcusable lack of abortion services, which is maintained by the Executive, or the issue in front of us.”
“<BR /> <BR />All the while, those in Government who preside over the very policies that have led to untold deaths and sickness are walking around unchecked as though it were not primarily their fault. Even when Ministers or MPs flagrantly break the rules, the PSNI does nothing. Today, in Belfast, a homeless person might well be charged for begging in the street, but, as sure as the sky is blue, no Minister will be charged for risking people's health or creating poverty, homelessness and destitution. The hypocrisy of the PSNI has been shameful. We should call it out here today.”
“On one hand, there has not been aggressive targeting of the employers who have put their staff at risk, or the owners of major care homes where COVID deaths have been astronomical, yet, on the other hand, groups of people who tried to demonstrate respectfully their opposition to state violence — those who commemorated the victims of the Sean Graham bookmakers massacre and those who were on the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020 — have been targeted and faced unnecessary, over-the-top, aggressive policing. It must be said that the PSNI has utterly disgraced itself during the pandemic, from its discrimination towards Black Lives Matter protesters to its raiding of funerals in my constituency only a few weeks ago, when families were trying to mourn.”
“Justice delayed is, obviously, justice denied. Every sensible person knows of the need to socially distance and respect guidelines in these difficult times, not least families who are remembering their loved ones and seeking truth and justice for their sectarian murders. How anyone could think that those events would ever represent anything less than counterproductive policing is way beyond me. We must extend our solidarity to all the families who were impacted on by that. <BR /> <BR />We must also say that there has been a pattern of behaviour all the way through the pandemic. It must be called out.”
“What happened at the weekend on the Ormeau Road in south Belfast was shameful. Just days after escorting what appeared to be feuding loyalists around east Belfast, the PSNI met a small, dignified and carefully organised commemoration by families of the victims of the massacre at Sean Graham bookmakers with intimidation and heavy hands. In the middle of a pandemic, arresting victims for commemorating, in the exact spot where some of them were shot, on the very anniversary of the atrocity, and where there is a horrific history of state collusion with the murdering gang that was responsible, is utterly appalling. <BR /> <BR />I offer my solidarity and support to Mark Sykes, who was treated disgracefully and should be compensated. I call on the Police Ombudsman to release immediately the report on the massacre at Sean Graham bookmakers.”
“They are not acting in the interests of the public and not with the fervour that scandal after scandal on this hill demands. I suggest that this place needs a serious reckoning and a wholesale break from the shambolic governance of the past. The Bill does not deliver that, but parts of it may help in that effort. That is why I am happy to support it.”
“What is ultimately needed is a principled socialist and left-wing politics, and that is obviously what we are trying to do in this Building, in this city and beyond. However, moves to create more accountability are welcome. Moves to ensure that meetings are properly recorded are welcome. Moves to record lobbying are welcome. Those are basic measures of democracy that the public should expect from their representatives and Ministers. <BR /> <BR />In finishing, I wish to say that what happens in the Chamber today should be watched closely. Those in parties that claim to support openness and transparency and claim that their parties work for their communities but cannot bring themselves to slow the pace of the gravy train that they have stood to benefit from are acting in their own interests.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The point that I was making was that it is always one rule for ordinary people and another for businesses and Ministers. Tapping a couple of pounds on the streets gets you a fine, but wasting hundreds of millions of pounds of public money gets you a free pass as long as you are a Minister, a spad or connected to this place. It really sums up the hypocrisy at the heart of the rotten state of affairs that is driven by this institution and headed by the DUP, Sinn Féin and other parties. <BR /> <BR />The legislation, obviously and clearly, will not overturn that kind of situation, and it is not without its problems. Frankly, I do not think that there is a solution to the problem that is based solely on tighter and stronger state power.”
“Consider how, over the past number of months amidst the pandemic, when people were told to stay home and stay safe, the PSNI found the time to fine and prosecute, under the Vagrancy Act 1824, a number of homeless people who were sleeping rough and others who were begging in our city. Dickensian legislation that ought to be binned and confined to the history books was used in 2020 in Belfast in the middle of a pandemic — shameful stuff. Meanwhile, workers have come forward during the pandemic to raise unsafe working conditions, and a blind eye has been turned in most cases —.”
“RHI is not just water under the bridge, and that is not simply because not a single head has rolled for it — not one person was fined or prosecuted — but because the shambolic handling of the pandemic is an extension of those politics.”
“When we consider the government negligence regarding RHI and the amount of public money wasted or siphoned off to the business community and measure that against the current context of the pandemic, with hospitals under pressure and life-saving surgery postponed, food bank usage soaring, child poverty increasing and all the physical and mental health pressures on top of that, priorities have never been clearer.”
“<BR /> <BR />We all know the background headlines that haunt the issue: RHI; hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money wasted; unaccountable spads; Ministers courting the business community in the most unaccountable of ways; no records of meetings or lobbying; and Ministers not reading reports that they had signed off, costing huge sums of money to the public. RHI was not an aberration but a reflection of an institution that is tied by a thousand threads to the interests of big businesses and profit-making above all else.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, it will be no surprise to you and the House to hear me say that the proposer of the Bill and I are worlds apart politically — polar opposites, you might say — and that is pretty glaring, as is seen on a weekly basis in the Chamber. Even on the specific issues raised by the Bill, it seems clear to me that we would disagree fundamentally on the very role and need for spads. If I had my way, we would not have unelected officials with inflated salaries swanning around Departments in the manner exposed by scandals such as RHI at all. However, as we have said from the beginning of the process, we can support legislation that seeks to put checks and balances on the Stormont gravy train that has existed here for far too long.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Even though some people had breaks in their insurance, they did not cease being taxi drivers and many of them were unable to work. Does the Minister agree that it is unacceptable that many taxi drivers are still without any payment? What will she and her Executive colleagues do to address that? She said that 90% of applications were valid and, therefore, those drivers received a payment, but what percentage of taxi drivers did not receive any payments whatsoever?”
“The ability of Members to participate from home is a welcome development, but they cannot vote at home when there are Divisions, so we need to work towards putting that in place. I am generally supportive of the amendment, but the Committee needs to do extra work, and I will do what I can to support that.”
“There is flexibility in light of the pandemic, which is welcome, but politics is not just about what happens in the Building; it is about what happens in communities. It does not affect me as a Belfast MLA, but, quite often, MLAs have to travel when that may not be conducive to their or their constituents' time. We need to look at and address proxy voting in the long term. Currently, proxy voting may not suit everybody. I am a single MLA, and there are other single MLAs and parties, and others who are independents, such as Claire Sugden and Trevor Lunn. They have said that they may not want to lend their vote, so to speak, to other parties because they want to be independent or separate. That needs to be looked at in the long term. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we have remote voting, and we talked about that in Committee.”
“I will be brief as well. This is a welcome proposal, but, to be honest — it is no reflection on the Chair because she was in a different position as a stand-in Minister — it should have been brought in a long time ago. Kellie Armstrong has been raising the issue, and I raised it last year when the Chair was standing in as a Minister. A number of Ministers were self-isolating, and, to be frank, it was bizarre that we did not have the system in place then or even prior to that. The House has been too slow to implement mask wearing, and we have not implemented temperature testing. That has been a theme in the House throughout the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />Nevertheless, the changes are welcome now, but there is something else — I and others have raised it in Committee — that needs to be teased out: the proxy voting system is too rigid.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. He said that care homes and staff needed to be protected, and, obviously, PPE is part of that. Does he have any concern that assistance is going to care homes, some of which have very large profit margins? The likes of Runwood Homes has taken in £140 million in years gone by. Does he have any concern about that kind of care home?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I would appreciate the Minister sharing the costs that he referred to with the House. Does the Minister accept that the current model, which prioritises profit at all costs, is not only unsustainable and unfair but has the potential to put residents, workers and the public at risk?”
“Several people have contacted me to say that they are still waiting for support from the scheme. They cannot get answers because there is no phone number for them to ring, obviously. What does the Minister advise them to do in order to get support and assistance in the middle of the pandemic?”
“The private, for-profit model should cease. The Executive should act urgently to bring care homes back into the health service, where we can focus on upgrading, accountability, regulation, proper funding that is ring-fenced and bringing pay and conditions to a level that is deserved by residents, families and workers. Anything less would be a failure of everybody in that sector.”
“Some of those employers have had the cheek to threaten libel suits against those who have challenged them on their treatment of residents and workers. <BR /> <BR />I want several points to ring out clearly from the report. The Stormont Executive and the for-profit model that they tolerate and promote have failed residents, families and workers. All decision-making must directly involve residents and families. All workers have the unobstructed right to trade union representation. We must urgently end the atrocious pay and conditions that these workers endure.”
“We have had to send health service staff into care homes because care home bosses essentially pay a pittance to the workers already in their care homes. The health service workers are working for those employers free of charge. <BR /> <BR />The issue of PPE is in the report as well. The Executive have handed millions of pounds to private companies in the forms of PPE, sick pay, training and health service workers. That is called a bailout, and it demonstrates that the for-profit model simply does not work. It has not worked, and we have thrown millions into the bank accounts of private care bosses who have stood in the way of workers trying to join a trade union and treated many families who have raised issues with them as, at best, a nuisance.”
“Obviously, we want all care homes to have the PPE that they need, but why are we spending millions of taxpayers' money when the employers — the big care homes — have millions and, in some cases, tens and hundreds of millions in the bank? <BR /> <BR />The report refers to sick pay. Again, how can it be that employers in the sector do not provide sick pay for their workers? We are now in a situation where taxpayers essentially foot the bill for sick pay because some big employers with millions in the bank refuse to do it. It is simply disgraceful and unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />Staff shortages are referred to in the report as well. Health service workers have been sent into care homes to give assistance. We all know that there are extreme pressures on our health service already.”
“The Executive have tolerated and, in fact, promoted a system that treats workers, residents and families unfairly in which they are denied dignity, respect and even a semblance of equality. 'New Decade, New Approach' commits the Executive to extending workers' rights, but we see none of that in how workers in this sector are treated. The vast majority of care homes exist in the private sector, and, as I have said, the regulations are weak and chaotic at best. That is designed deliberately so that employers can pay workers a pittance and fall short in their obligations to residents and families. It is quite concerning that former heads of RQIA have joined the governing body of one care home about which massive concerns have been raised. <BR /> <BR />How can it be the case that the Government give free PPE to private owners?”
“The report highlights staff shortages, low pay and poor conditions for workers, and, as others have mentioned, that was a fact before the pandemic. Why has it taken a pandemic to bring that to our attention in such a big way?”
“<BR /> <BR />The need for the inquiry and its findings are a real indictment of the Executive's care home policies and demonstrate the inability of the private sector to put residents, families and workers before profits. The Executive failed to put a protective ring of steel around our care homes at the onset of the crisis, and that produced tragic consequences for residents and families. We will, no doubt, hear excuse after excuse, but that is a fact. <BR /> <BR />As the report mentions, families felt that they were outside the decision-making process and that there was a lack of communication as a result of the chaotic failure of regulation. The fault for that lies with the House and the Executive. The system of regulation is designed to fail because the private care model exists on the basis of cutting corners.”
“I thank the Chair, the Committee and the Committee staff for this important report and inquiry. Before I comment on the inquiry's findings, I offer my sincere sympathies to all families who have lost a loved one during the pandemic. It is always difficult to lose a loved one, and it must have been especially challenging and difficult throughout the last year. I offer my sympathies and solidarity to all residents, families and workers for the challenges that they have faced over the last year. Care workers are among the heroes in the fight to keep people safe during the pandemic, and we must salute their efforts despite the situation that they faced.”
“Unequal vaccine distribution is a massive issue, with people in poorer parts of the world being affected and likely not having a vaccine at all. Our health must come first, no matter how huge the profits. Our health should not depend on the border within which we live, and the people of Ireland cannot be caught in crossfire that threatens our lives. <BR /> <BR />Over 100 years ago, James Connolly said, "Neither King nor Kaiser". Today, it is neither London nor Brussels but a socialist Ireland, and we need to put people's health before profit. With the centenary of partition this year, it is more relevant than ever.”
“That is one of the mantras of the European Union, the UK and, for the most part, the House. The profits of private pharmaceutical companies have soared throughout the crisis while they have benefited from extensive public research funds. Governments should not be beholden to the interests of for-profit private companies in the middle of a health pandemic, but the hands-off approach by the British state and the EU throughout this crisis has allowed their profits to stack up at a time when Governments across Europe should be challenging control of patents to produce a people's vaccine and ensuring that as many people can avail themselves of it as quickly as possible. They are engaging in vaccine imperialism. The EU has purchased twice as many vaccines as needed, and the British state four times as much as it needs.”
“The EU Commission was forced into a Boris Johnson-style U-turn at the weekend, but we should be clear that it attempted to walk a destructive path that could have had serious repercussions for people across Ireland. This was primarily about protecting the interests of for-profit vaccine companies and Governments' mishandling of the pandemic to cover up the EU's handling of the vaccination programme in particular. It was a flagrant attempt at vaccine imperialism, whereby citizens of one part of Europe were pitted against others in an attempt to cover up the EU's failure to ensure rapidly that its citizens were vaccinated. It has also exposed the way in which Governments have adopted a mantra for many decades that the market knows best and that states cannot intervene in the economy.”
“Will she also assure us that the Executive will not be coy about seizing the assets of religious institutions if they refuse to compensate the victims affected by the report?”
“I thank the First Minister for her statement and offer my solidarity and thoughts to all the victims and survivors. The history of mother-and-baby homes and Magdalene laundries is, obviously, a devastating example of institutional abuse here. Such cruelty existed in both religious and state run institutions. Both must be held to account for the crimes that were committed. <BR /> <BR />I noted the Minister's comments about a public inquiry. Can she assure the House that if the majority of victims want a public inquiry, one will be held?”
“My question follows on from those on the digital divide. Minister, can you guarantee that all pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds will have access to a digital device and free access to the internet?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Is the Member concerned that, in answer to my question on 4 December, the Minister stated that the last meeting of the Department of Education employer and trade union consultation subgroup was on 8 September and that there was a period of at least two months last year when the Minister did not meet that body of trade union representatives?”
“They have had a handful of deaths, and we are looking at more than 2,000 deaths. The Minister should respond and answer the question on whether he will support a zero-COVID approach to support those in SEN schools and the wider public.”
“It is worth emphasising that, last weekend, concerts were held in New Zealand, with tens of thousands of people —.”
“I remind the Minister that he sneered at me when I suggested that pupils needed to wear masks on public transport and had a dismissive attitude towards other Members when they raised issues. He may not have said that they are immune to the virus, but his approach has been inconsistent and dangerous. <BR /> <BR />For the SEN pupils who have had anxiety or are finding it difficult to understand what is going on, it is even harder for them when the Executive and this Minister are pursuing an approach of lockdown, surge, lockdown, surge, lockdown, surge. A zero-COVID approach offers them hope that there is a way to get a handle on this pandemic, eliminate community transmission and assure pupils, teachers and education assistants that there is an end in sight.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is also important to emphasise that the failure of this Executive to implement a zero-COVID strategy has a direct impact on pupils and staff in special educational needs schools. The strategy of living with COVID, agreed, adopted and implemented by this Executive, has seen the pattern of lockdown, surge, lockdown, surge being repeated. That has led to an exponential growth in cases and, tragically, deaths. Despite what the Minister has previously said, schools and pupils have not been immune from the virus and that approach.”
“The Minister needs to listen to that and to other voices that have expressed similar concerns. <BR /> <BR />It is worth emphasising that there has been quite a lot of union- and teacher-bashing. Parents, teachers, classroom assistants and all education workers share the same interests. They all want to see pupils educated, but in a safe manner. We should do away with this notion that parents and teaching staff are at loggerheads; they do not have opposing interests. It is quite noticeable that, when trade unions are forcing Governments to retreat and backtrack from previously entrenched positions, the Governments go on the offensive and attack them, as seen most recently in Britain and the South of Ireland.”