Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
The complete record
Every one of 4,137 lines we hold for Gerry Carroll, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 53 of 83.
“The petition of concern has not been used since the Executive reformed in 2020, yet levels of political stability are on the floor, with daily threats to bring the institutions down. There was dog-whistle support for mobilisations on the streets that led to riots, with some in the highest offices giving them a nod and a wink. <BR /> <BR />What we really need is a new kind of politics, one that rejects the communal and sectarian framework and tries to reach out across the divide on the basis of unity. We need a vision based on unity — fighting not one another but to challenge poverty, inequality and marginalisation — unity over division in order to build a better society for people, their health and our planet. That is what I am up for in the period ahead.”
“There are many examples of that, and it adds insult to injury that votes on those issues were not considered from parties that do not designate as "nationalist" or "unionist" — a point to be emphasised for Mr O'Dowd. That is inherently undemocratic. The reality, however, is that that mechanism does not prevent sectarianism discrimination; it entrenches it. I do not know where else in the world only people with a certain political designation would be allowed to have a vote on LGBTQ+ rights or austerity cuts. In that sense, people from all communities have been let down. <BR /> <BR />I reiterate the view that tinkering with voting systems will not bring stability to this place.”
“No, I have given way. <BR /> <BR />With regard to inequality, there are now more peace walls separating working-class areas than when the agreement was signed in 1998. The development of class politics based on unity as opposed to division is constantly undermined by communal competition. It is ironic as well as farcical to think that a mechanism such as the petition of concern, which was apparently set up to prevent sectarianism discrimination, has in reality helped to entrench sectarianism and discrimination. Worse still, perhaps, is the way in which that mechanism has been used to block progress on issues of rights and well-being for people from all communities. Clearly, that is wrong.”
“I did not say that, so I do not know where the Member is getting that. The point that I am making to the Member, which he cannot answer, is this: why do my vote and the votes of the people who elect me, the Alliance Party, the Greens and others not matter in debates in the Chamber? He cannot answer that question, so that is the question I would put back to him. Clearly, he has no answer to it.”
“The enshrined communalisation of politics perpetuated by these institutions has helped to create a situation where sectarianism thrives and re-emerges in a context of —.”
“I do not adhere to the school of thought that we must save the Executive at all costs, especially when it involves continuing to attack working-class people and minorities. The record of the Executive and therefore these institutions is not great, to put it mildly. Time and again they have been part of the problem in implementing austerity, enshrining inequality and, indeed, entrenching division. <BR /> <BR />While I might differ on politics from the proposer of the motion, I can certainly get behind its action points. They aim to alleviate the entrenched sectarianism that exists in the Chamber, where socialist, oppositional and minority voices such as mine are constantly squeezed out and forced to the sidelines because of the communalisation of politics in debates where my vote and those of others literally do not count.”
“I support the Alliance motion and amendment. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that change is urgently required in this arena. We will support a report being completed that would initiate that process, not least because of the misuse of the petition of concern to intervene in legislation that does not target one community or the other but targets all communities, issues such as welfare reform and marriage equality, to name but two. <BR /> <BR />I probably have different policies, politics and views from the supporters of the motion about the record or ability of these institutions to deliver for the people here. Obviously, I am not part of the Executive. The Executive have not done anything near enough to deliver for people generally.”
“First Minister, you stated that cases remain very high, and that is concerning. Have you abandoned your reckless plans to ensure that all restrictions be lifted by the end of the month? If you and the Executive get your way, what is your assessment of what the NHS will look like this winter?”
“Look around Belfast and elsewhere across the North: private facilities are popping up left, right and centre. <BR /> <BR />The Minister and the Executive must now ensure that measures are taken to alleviate the waiting lists by acquiring the resources necessary to treat people who are in need. That means paying our health workers properly to retain them, stopping the throwing of tens or hundreds of millions of pounds into the private health sector, plugging the gap of thousands of workers who are not in the NHS at the moment, making sure that safe-staffing legislation proceeds and doing away with euphemisms like "transformation" and "reconfiguration", which are often code words for reducing, cutting, stripping back and not investing in our health service. If we do that, we will be on course to deal with these and other waiting lists.”
“That is the failure that the Executive have not only allowed to continue but have continually thrown money at, reinforcing and funding the private health sector and a two-tier health system whilst claiming to aspire to a health system for all. <BR /> <BR />Throughout the pandemic, I have repeatedly raised the fact that there exist beds, staff and facilities in the private sector that should be taken into public ownership, primarily in the fight against COVID but also against other conditions. I am always dismayed and puzzled when, after asking the Minister in an Assembly question about the exact capacity in the private sector, I am told that it would be too burdensome for the Department to give that answer to me and other Members. To me and anybody else, that suggests that there are many private facilities in existence.”
“<BR /> <BR />The fact that so many are waiting on treatment is a shocking indictment, and it is a continual reminder of how our health system is failing people who need health treatment. To be clear, the failure is not on the part of our health workers, who not only have done an outstanding job in an unimaginable situation but are continually overworked and, as the latest pay offer once again shows, underpaid. The failure lies in the fact that so many people — in this instance, young people — lie on waiting lists, but the cruel reality is that if they or their parents had money, they could get access to private treatment in a matter of weeks.”
“I thank the Member who tabled this Matter of the Day, and I thank the Children's Commissioner, Koulla Yiasouma, for the report. The news that 17,000 children and young people, which amounts to one in five, have been waiting for more than a year to see a consultant or health worker gives serious cause for concern and raises many questions about the health impact that is being felt by young people who are unwell and, in most cases, unable to speak to the veracity of the pain and discomfort that they are going through. Young members of my own family have, unfortunately, experienced that scenario, as have too many people in my constituency and across the North. Today, my heart goes out to them.”
“<BR /> <BR />My view on the issue begins with the hundreds of families across various communities who have waited patiently for years — decades, in fact — for the ombudsman to conduct investigations of the killing of their loved ones. If a motion such as this were passed or acted on, it could result in delaying the publication of major reports such as the investigation of the Sean Graham bookmakers massacre and Operation Greenwich, which looks at up to 22 murders in south Derry. I suggest that the DUP ought to think of the families involved in the killings instead of tabling motions like this.”
“I will keep my remarks brief. I will oppose the motion, as we view it as problematic on the part of those who tabled it. It is a hypocritical attempt to undermine impartial investigations. It is hypocritical because it comes from a party that often cries, "Law and order", but goes on to pick and choose which crimes are and are not scrutinised. I certainly do not think that the system of law and order here or the ombudsman is perfect — far from it. I am worried, however, that the motion would, in essence, inevitably result in undermining the scrutiny of certain elements of the security forces in relation to the legacy issue and could be used to shield the exposure of wrongdoing on behalf of the state. I believe that to be the motivation for the motion.”
“Action needs to be taken to put pressure on this institution. <BR /> <BR />Accommodation for students should not be left up to the market or the private rented sector. Universities and colleges also need to step up, alongside the Department and the Minister. We cannot continue to brag about the skills of our students if we cannot even ensure that they have keys to get access to a house.”
“We also need to see action on pay and financial assistance for all those nursing and student midwives who are struggling to pay their rent, not to mention our health workers. <BR /> <BR />We are seeing a wave of anger in places like Germany and across the rest of Europe over housing and how vulture funds and private interests are being put ahead of the interests of the public in regard to housing. Several decades ago, housing and the denial of it to some people sparked a movement on the streets of Belfast, Derry and places in between. We need a similar movement on our streets and in our communities to pull together students from all communities, including not only international students but those who are not students but are subject to landlords hiking rents with no action being taken against them.”
“Students who are now experiencing real challenges in getting access to affordable and suitable accommodation have, once again, been failed by the Executive, who have operated a hands-off approach in regulating the private rented sector. This institution has repeatedly failed to stand up to landlords and those pushing their interests. It has refused to introduce a cap on rents that would mean that students, as well as other people in my constituency, cannot be charged a fortune in rent that has shot up extraordinarily for properties. <BR /> <BR />Once again, we are seeing another price rise, this time in rent, for so many, but wages continue to remain stagnant, which, in reality, is a cut for many. We absolutely need to see action from the Executive to cap and reduce already extremely high rents.”
“Shortly, representatives from the National Union of Students - Union of Students in Ireland (NUS-USI) will gather outside this Building to express their concern about how students have been once again sidelined and left behind during the pandemic. I salute them on their No Keys, No Degrees campaign and will briefly mention some of the issues they are highlighting. <BR /> <BR />Issues affecting students were very much ignored throughout the pandemic. Students who were told to go to university and college last year without any consideration of the impact of the virus on them were, with their lecturers and education staff, subsequently blamed for the virus circulating in communities.”
“Hopefully, if the motion passes today, that will be a reality. I am happy to support the motion and amendment.”
“Thank you. I thank the Member for his intervention. I agree with his point. He brings a lot of expertise, as others said, so I fully accept that. <BR /> <BR />Just to finish the quote:”
“PPE should be cleaned and thoroughly decontaminated after every incident in order to avoid a build-up of toxic contaminants. Firefighters should shower within an hour of returning from incidents. Regular health screening and recording attendance at fire incidents over a firefighter's career are strongly advised and will be key to the longer-term monitoring and management of their health. <BR /> <BR />One of the last points, which is in many ways the most important, is that we need an expansion of screening and investment in the NHS that targets firefighters as well as other workers who may be at risk on the front line. <BR /> <BR />In closing, I will say that Matt Wrack, general secretary of the FBU, stated, I believe in the report:”
“Scientists have created a best practice guide for fire and rescue services, putting forward a number of urgent recommendations to minimise firefighters' exposure to toxic fire effluence. Those include every fire and rescue service having to implement fully risk-assessed decontamination procedures en route to, during and after fire incidents and ensuring that all relevant staff are trained in implementing those procedures. Fire and rescue personnel should receive regular and up-to-date training on the harmful health effects of exposure to toxic fire effluence and how those exposures can be reduced, minimised or eliminated. Firefighters should wear respiratory protective equipment at all times while firefighting, including after a fire has been extinguished but is still gassing off.”
“The research shows that three-quarters of firefighters serve for at least 10 years before receiving their diagnosis. Those are really startling figures, with more than half of those diagnosed being under the age of 50 and a fifth were under 40. Of those diagnosed, 26% had skin cancer, which was the most common illness; 10% had testicular cancer; 4% had head and neck cancer; and 3% had non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Half of the respondents did not think that their fire services took decontamination practices, such as cleaning PPE equipment, seriously. That is a crucial point for the Minister and the Fire and Rescue Service to act on. One in five of the survey respondents said that they store their fire gloves in their boots or pockets and one in 10 in their helmets, risking the transfer of toxic contaminants directly to skin.”
“One survey, which was conducted on 10,000 people currently serving as firefighters, asked questions to:”
“Indoor air testing at a number of fire stations and training centres highlighted that firefighters across Britain and the North are still being exposed to high levels of toxic contaminants during and after a fire, because cancer-causing chemicals remain on PPE, clothing, equipment and elsewhere at the fire ground. <BR /> <BR />As others have said, the research stated:”
“Obviously, that is alarming and showcases the urgent need for regular health screening to detect the early changes that could lead to cancer and other illnesses that relate to their work. Public health authorities and the Fire and Rescue Service must put the necessary provisions in place urgently to keep firefighters safe from cancer and other illnesses. <BR /> <BR />Those workers are exposed to fires that produce a cocktail of toxic irritant and carcinogenic chemicals in the form of aerosols, dusts, fibres, smoke, fumes, gases, vapours and other elements.”
“I wish Fra McCann all the best on his retirement that probably will not be a retirement. I am sure that he will be as busy and active as ever. He has always been courteous to me, and I want to wish Fra all the best. <BR /> <BR />I fully endorse the motion. I thank the Members who brought the motion and the amendment before the House today. The Assembly needs to do more to combat cancer rates among firefighters, but it also needs to do more to expand cancer screening for women, men, children, the elderly and every person in our society and to recognise the importance of front-line workers throughout COVID, especially firefighters. <BR /> <BR />The figures are alarming, as Members have mentioned. The published research states:”
“It is very disappointing to see a lack of legislation coming through from the Minister with regard to workers' rights. Minister, as I understand it, your party colleagues and previous Ministers refused to engage directly with or meet NICICTU, which represents 250,000 workers here. Will you commit, if you have not already, to meeting NICICTU to hear what improvements in employment legislation can be brought forward in this and the next mandate?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will he agree that the Bill is quite limited on where those posters, images, placards and whatever can be displayed? My understanding of the Bill is that the very offensive, damaging and traumatising images that adorn Belfast city centre and other places will still be allowed to exist, as much as I have deep opposition to their traumatic and offensive images.”
“So, for all the nice words about mental health awareness, services and support, I remind Members of that comment. I will bear it in mind when I vote. <BR /> <BR />I thank Informing Choices, Alliance for Choice, and Clare Bailey for bringing this Bill. I support it, and urge other Members to do so as well.”
“I hope that the words of people who have suffered for crossing the thresholds of clinics in the North will give the Assembly some impetus to put those services in place. <BR /> <BR />I leave the last word to Informing Choices. They stated in their briefing:”
“Some of them are family, friends or partners, and none of them should be subjected to such harassment and treatment. As is the case with many of the consequences of the lack of abortion access here, they have had to speak up and tell their stories, which can be incredibly difficult. I thank them for speaking out against those groups. <BR /> <BR />I turn my attention to the Minister of Health and all the members of the Executive in the Chamber. The fact that there is still such stigma around abortion is a direct consequence of the failure to deliver free, safe, legal and local access to abortion. It is one of the worst indictments of the kind of politics that dominate this place. Women and pregnant people are failed every day for the lack of services, basic information and support. It is an international shame, disgrace and embarrassment.”
“I have protested, over the years, for reproductive choice and will continue to do so. Those who stand on the other side of the debate, on the other side of the Chamber, are still free to protest and have their voices heard, but they should not be free to frighten, shame or chase anyone away from the door of a healthcare clinic. I ask this: where was the DUP last summer, when there were curbs on the right to protest for Black Lives Matter protesters? There was absolute silence. I hope that those in the House whose views on the issue of abortion oppose mine will have the same vigour when they challenge anti-vax protesters outside hospitals, but, somehow, I doubt it. <BR /> <BR />I want to return to the matter of people who have been targeted by those harassing campaigners. As has been said, not all of them are seeking an abortion.”
“They hold giant, graphic images, which can be entirely traumatising for women who have had a crisis pregnancy or, indeed, a miscarriage. That behaviour is oppressive, and it is exactly those kinds of tactics that make the Bill necessary. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up on the point about the rights to assembly and protest. In my opinion, the Bill is not an attack on the right to protest. It is deeply unfortunate that safe access zones are necessary at all. However, they are necessary because of sustained campaigns of hatred and harassment that do not have some inalienable right to continue, even under the guise of protest. <BR /> <BR />I am an ardent defender of the right to protest, as many in the Chamber know. I defended Black Lives Matter protesters who were shamefully targeted by the PSNI.”
“Some Members would do well to listen to that advice. <BR /> <BR />There have been claims from anti-choice organisations that the Bill is oppressive and that it attacks their right to assembly. It is clearly hypocritical that some organisations, with members who have been convicted of harassment outside some of those clinics and who brag about people not having seen harassment yet, to speak about oppressive measures. Those organisations have been deemed by judges to have been forcing any women of childbearing age to identify their reasons for entering a Marie Stopes clinic. As we heard already, they have thrown holy water at pro-choice activists. They gather in Newry on a weekly basis and they claim that women and their healthcare providers are guilty of murder.”
“I support the Bill and offer my solidarity to those women who have been intimidated while trying to access reproductive healthcare. It is never acceptable to impede someone's access to healthcare, and it is even more condemnable when the kind of healthcare that they are accessing is already a source of great stigma and when it is likely that they have already overcome many barriers to get to that point. <BR /> <BR />I also want to thank and to quote Alliance for Choice, whose representatives have been unequivocally clear on this matter. It states that whatever your party or personal stance:”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he accept that there is no ultimate freedom of speech and that every element of freedom of speech comes with rights and responsibilities? You cannot just go out and offend certain organisations and minority groups. Does he recognise that the Bill only limits the right to give out certain material in a certain area? The images used by some anti-choice organisations, which I and many other people find offensive, will still be allowed to be displayed in towns and cities across the North. Does he accept that that will be the case even if the Bill proceeds?”
“It is her choice. <BR /> <BR />Does the Member agree that it is very concerning, inaccurate and dangerous to suggest that workers coming from Europe or elsewhere in the world have a role in driving down wages? Workers do not drive down wages; nefarious, chancer employers do that.”
“<BR /> <BR />I disagree with the motion's analysis of why we are in this position, but I agree with the calls made in it. For that reason, I support it.”
“That is exactly what we need to see happen for HGV drivers, agriculture workers and everybody else who has been ground down by employers attacking wages and conditions. <BR /> <BR />Agriculture workers and drivers are essential, but they are treated as disposable. Look at how many COVID outbreaks occurred in food plants. Those workers were largely forgotten about, but, without them, we would not have had food in our shops or on our tables. HGV drivers are essential workers and skilled workers, but they earn an average of £11·80 an hour. Without those drivers, our society would grind to a halt. People would not get their food or online deliveries. The question of extended hours is important, and health and safety must be paramount if the Government are considering pushing ahead with extending hours.”
“The 'Financial Times' fears that the current situation could see a long-term trend that tilts the balance of negotiating power from capital towards labour.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is quite remarkable that, for the first time ever — in my memory, certainly — the Tories are talking about supporting or improving pay and conditions for workers — HGV drivers — but only to get them over the current crisis, mind you. They have refused to tackle rogue employers and are now paying only lip service to improving conditions. I imagine that, if lorry drivers took action on the picket lines, there would not be a Tory in sight to support them, and they would be the first to lay into those essential workers. <BR /> <BR />We have to remember, however, that, in the current context, workers are in a powerful negotiating position to increase their pay and improve their terms and conditions. Workers in some companies have indicated that they are willing to take action. I stand behind any who choose to do so.”
“Of course, that is not to mention the problem with over-reliance on agency workers and bogus self-employment. The list goes on and on. If the Government did set industry-wide standards from which employers would not be allowed to diverge, it would benefit workers and keep more of them in place. Most workers, rightly, have access to lunch breaks and so forth, but when lorry drivers need to take a break, they often do not have somewhere to park to take a break. Lorry drivers rarely have a place to go to the toilet that is not the side of the road, and washing facilities are non-existent for most. We need to ensure that lorry drivers, like all workers, have some dignity and proper facilities in their workplace, wherever that may be from day to day.”
“Given that employment legislation is devolved here, I will be interested to hear what the Agriculture and Economy Ministers intend to do about those issues. <BR /> <BR />Unite the union has a drivers' manifesto. I encourage this Minister and the Economy Minister to look at it, read it and implement it. It states:”
“It is the same old story of workers being ground down, disrespected, degraded and not paid enough. The working conditions for HGV drivers in particular are pretty gruelling, with workers being subjected to a driving down of terms and conditions in a race to the bottom in which all workers lose out but those who run major haulage companies rake it in, as per usual — the same as it ever was. We have a crisis where workers are not being recruited or retained. That has led to the major crisis that we all see on our TV screens. The average HGV driver is male and over 40 years of age. Most younger people with young families see the particularly long weeks of work, getting up in the middle of the night for work, and the terrible conditions, and say, "No thanks; that is not for me". Unfortunately, those problems are historical.”
“It is important in this debate to discuss working conditions in those industries, because the motion does not refer to them even in passing. Like Mr Aiken, I declare an interest as a member of Unite the union. There is no doubt that the Tory-driven Brexit has had an impact on people's ability to work here, where they want to. Nefarious and nasty immigration policies that have been deployed by the Tories both before and after the referendum have made Britain a hostile place for many migrants and would-be migrants. However, to pretend that that is the sole reason for the crisis in some of those sectors would be not only fanciful but inaccurate. Anyone who speaks to workers and unions that represent HGV drivers in particular will know that some of these issues are at least 20 years in the making.”
“Minister, there is a lot of concern about how restrictive and cumbersome employment legislation is in the North and the South for trade unionists, which restricts their ability to organise and take action. Was there any discussion about that? NDNA made some commitments about workers' rights but only one has progressed to the House. Learning from COVID has not happened for workers and trade unionists.”
“The current offer does not do that, and it should be immediately taken off the table. A much improved and fairer offer should be made to our workers.”
“<BR /> <BR />The suggestion that Governments, councils or employers have learned from COVID has, once again, proven to be a myth. Unions representing council workers — GMB, Unite, UNISON and others — are calling for an increase of no less than 10%, and that is what they deserve. A further insult is the fact that most councils here have chief executives or managers who are on hundreds of thousands of pounds per year, yet many council workers have just about enough to get by. We need to make sure that our council workers are not left in the cold this winter. If councils do not have a healthy surplus or deep financial reserves, the Executive must step in to protect workers. Current offers are unacceptable. We need to pay workers what they are owed and worth.”
“It is not only that. We are looking into a bleak winter and new year for everybody, unless, of course, you are wealthy. On top of pay cuts for front-line workers, the CPI inflation figure is sitting at 3·2%, and that is set to shoot up during the next few months. The RPI rate of inflation is sitting at 4·8% and is set to shoot up as well. When you add the scandalous National Insurance increase and the fact that gas and oil prices are shooting up, you see that more and more workers will be forced into poverty and debt and into the arms of food banks this winter. Workers have effectively had almost a quarter of their wage cut during the last decade, when they had to tighten their belts, while prices still shot up.”