Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“I oppose the motion, which is a clear attempt to move the dial on a familiar conversation: MLA pay and allowances. The motion reminds us that MLA salaries and pensions are determined by an independent body, effectively laying the groundwork for an inevitable and substantial salary increase for MLAs under the guise of independence and objectivity. Straight after the debate, the Assembly Members (Remuneration Board) Bill will be introduced in the Assembly. When a board is being set up, we all know what it will recommend. There is a clear direction of travel. <BR /> <BR />In a briefing to the Audit Committee, the Assembly Commission noted that MLA salaries had not been reviewed since 2016 and that the current salary for MLAs is, as we heard, £19,000 less than members of the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments. The Assembly Commission concluded:”
“The Minister and parties should take note. <BR /> <BR />Let us focus on what works, which includes cracking down on profiteering landlords who charge extortionate rents and massively expanding the supply of social housing. The Minister, and, in fairness, previous Ministers, have refused to do that. Those solutions would benefit everyone, including first-time buyers. That is what I will attempt to do through my people's housing Bill, which will introduce long-overdue rent reductions and turn empty houses into homes. I encourage Members to support that when it comes to the House.”
“As well as giving a hand up to people who could already afford to buy, the scheme massively boosted the profits of developers. Help to buy is a failed housing policy in the vein of Thatcher's right to buy. It is, at best, misguided to try to resurrect that in the name of supporting first-time buyers. <BR /> <BR />Pumping money into the help-to-buy scheme is not a solution to the housing crisis. Even that well-known radical organisation, the House of Lords, recognised that in 2022. Its Built Environment Committee concluded that the help-to-buy scheme:”
“The sentiment behind the motion is well-intentioned, but there are serious concerns about help-to-buy schemes. I echo those raised by the Deputy Chair of the Committee. They cannot be ignored. The warped logic behind help-to-buy schemes dictates that, by stimulating housing demand, supply is sure to follow. In practice, help-to-buy schemes have pushed up house prices and private rents in the UK and Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The campaign group Priced Out calls the policy, "help to sell", because the scheme serves only to help prop up house prices that are already out of reach for most working-class people. The UK's National Audit Office reports that more than half of the 211,000 people who used the help-to-buy scheme could have bought a home without state support.”
“As the housing crisis destroys communities across the North and wage growth stagnates, falling far behind house prices, homeownership has never been more remote for working-class communities across the North. More people are finding it impossible to get on the property ladder. They are trapped in an under-regulated and extortionately expensive private rented sector. Others have no option but to move back into the family home, which is, as we have heard, their only hope of saving for a deposit. <BR /> <BR />We need to reflect on the reasons why people want to own their own home. Most people do not want to own property for the sake of it. They want to be free of the whims of private landlords who can hike rent or evict them at a moment's notice. Above all, first-time buyers desperately want independence, affordability and security.”
“Those who cannot afford to go private languish on waiting lists whilst their conditions worsen, and many will die waiting for treatment. The health crisis has a real human cost, and that cost is death and disease, especially for those who do not have the wealth and privilege to pay for private care.”
“Too often, that is simply code for the closure of local services. For that reason, I will oppose the amendment. People should protest against those forms of service reconfiguration. Shutting down maternity units, minor injuries units and urgent care centres before clear and safe alternatives are put in place shows a complete lack of care for the communities that work in and use those services. <BR /> <BR />Finally, the small but growing private healthcare sector in the North is a massive red flag for where the crisis is headed. Between 2019 and 2023, private hospital admissions in the North more than tripled. Those who have the means to pay out of their pocket or through private insurance plans are fast-tracking their way to treatment.”
“Outsourcing health and social care to the private sector is astonishingly poor value for money, yet some parties are content to pump millions each year into the private sector in the hope that multimillion-pound companies somehow have a sincere interest, which is not motivated by profit maximisation, in solving our waiting list crisis. <BR /> <BR />The amendment calls on the Minister to:”
“In fact, a year on from the Executive's restoration, the crisis facing our health service has only got worse. <BR /> <BR />It is undeniable that something needs to change. First and foremost, we need investment in our health and social care workers, who should be paid a decent wage and be employed under good terms and conditions. We also need to listen to those who are working on the front line when proposals for change are being developed. They are the experts, but engagement with workers is, too often, nothing more than a tick-box exercise. Any plans for reform that see a growing role for privatisation should be explicitly rejected.”
“It is abundantly clear that our health and social care system is in crisis. For the past decade, waiting lists for an initial outpatient appointment have risen by more than 200%, which is totally unacceptable. Our waiting lists are by far the worst on these islands. Compared with England, in the North, we wait seven times longer for hospital care. The morale of health and social care workers has plummeted almost as low as their pay in real terms. At the same time, attacks on healthcare workers have risen. <BR /> <BR />Since the Assembly was restored last year, we have debated ambulance waiting times, delays to the maternity and children's hospital, social care reform, mental health provision, funding for health transformation and much more. To be frank, all that talk has not made a bit of difference.”
“I thank the Member. Does he also share concern about the amendment's talking about taking "difficult decisions", which usually means closure and running down services? Will he express concern about it for that reason also?”
“Last week, the Minister for Communities removed intimidation points for victims of paramilitary-style violence. Minister, does your Department have any concern about the impact that that will have on people's safety and on their ability to live a life free from paramilitaries?”
“— the new managing authority. Will the Speaker's Office direct the Minister to answer all those unanswered questions?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. During what you might call that question session, the Minister refused to answer a number of questions, including mine, about whether any former DUP elected representatives would make up”
“Minister, I note that there is nothing in the statement about reducing the workload of those who are in the controlled and non-controlled sectors, and I urge you to proceed at pace with that. With the announcement of a new managing authority, presumably with new roles and positions, what guarantees can you give that the people who will fill those positions will not be current or former DUP elected reps?”
“As I understand it, at least one alternative proposal — maybe more — was put to the Commission that would have seen smaller parties' payments effectively double, but those parties voted that down. Commission members voted that down. That is another stitch-up by the bigger parties that leaves the smaller parties and independents behind — I include independents — and going without. That is totally unacceptable. It needs to be reviewed. I urge Commission members to go back and address that serious gap in the FAPP scheme.”
“Changes that were made to the scheme last year effectively amounted to a dramatic carve-up of public money, all to the benefit of the largest parties and the Opposition party. The DUP saw its fat budget increase by 63%. Sinn Féin saw its budget increase by 72%. My party, the TUV and the UUP have had our budgets capped. Clearly, that disadvantages smaller parties and privileges larger ones. At best, it is an unfair way in which to allocate public money. At worst, it is a deliberate attempt to stifle the voices and limit the resources of smaller parties that are not in a formal opposition role. I strongly suggest that it is the latter. <BR /> <BR />Executive parties on the Commission had an opportunity to challenge that or accept an alternative calculation. They refused to do so and ran that policy through.”
“<BR /> <BR />I support the motion, but it is also important to acknowledge the hypocrisy of some unionist MLAs who talk about the proper use of public funds. For years, DUP MLAs have been employing family members for Assembly and party jobs. Many people would see that as clear-cut nepotism and certainly not proper use of public money. During the RHI scandal, it emerged that DUP Ministers hired publicly paid spads from among the party membership despite signing papers to the contrary. The DUP has no authority to lecture anyone about transparency and accountability, given that its former MP for North Antrim failed to declare not one but two luxury holidays that were paid for by the Sri Lankan Government. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I want to speak about issues with the FAPP scheme.”
“The motion also, rightly, highlights several issues with the review, including the fact that the report's author failed to speak to members of the media who could have given critical evidence. <BR /> <BR />I want to use the opportunity to talk about Stormont's long record of using public money in inefficient, ineffective and improper ways. Some Ministers and Assembly Commission staff have taken an excessive number of long-haul business class flights for events and conferences that seem to be nothing more than talking shops. In the past three years, travel costs for just one senior member of Assembly staff have totalled more than £18,000 — an eye-watering sum. Clearly, that is a questionable use of public money, to put it mildly, lacking in accountability and transparency while ordinary people struggle.”
“Every MLA, Minister and political party has a duty to act with transparency and accountability in how they use public money. It is stating the obvious, but that includes being clear about who is employed for party political and constituency work. It should also include, as the motion calls for:”
“A financial levy should also be applied to gambling operators in the North to fund research, prevention and treatment. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion, and I urge the Executive to act on this matter of public health.”
“<BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to the many volunteers, including those in my constituency, who help others with gambling issues. They do so in their own time, off their own back and from the goodness of their heart. There is Gambling with Lives, but there are also groups in my constituency that meet in Twin Spires and Coláiste Feirste. The situation is not sustainable, however, because they report to me that they are getting early morning calls — at 2.00 am and 3.00 am — from people who are suicidal because of gambling-related issues. It should be treated as a public health issue, and appropriate funding should flow from that. We also need a dedicated gambling treatment service. As we have heard, England has 15 such clinics: we have zero.”
“It has exported light-touch regulation and messaging about responsible gambling around the world. An industry as powerful and profitable as the gambling industry will never regulate itself. There is an opportunity for us to take a completely different approach to gambling harm in the North, and I urge the Executive to do so. That begins with recognising gambling as a public health issue similar to alcohol and tobacco, as Members have said. Rather than framing gambling as an issue rooted in individual attitudes and behaviours, a public health approach would recognise the wider impact of gambling on the well-being of the whole community. The Department of Health should work alongside the Department for Communities, the Department of Education and the Department of Justice to reduce and prevent gambling harm.”
“<BR /> <BR />Gambling companies do not see people with a gambling addiction as vulnerable people who are in need of support; they are just high-value customers. It is predatory capitalism at it finest. While trying to suck as much money out of people as possible, betting companies warn people by saying, "Gamble responsibly" and, "When the fun stops, stop", as though it is as simple as that for a person with an addiction to turn off the switch. Research shows that those warning messages have absolutely no effect. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that a public health approach to tackling gambling will not come from Westminster. The gambling industry and its lobbyists enjoy a cosy relationship with Labour and the Tories. Westminster has been a trailblazer when it comes to regulating gambling but in all the wrong ways.”
“The industry's goal is to exploit as many people as possible, especially in our most deprived communities, and to extract as much wealth as it can from the pockets of working-class people at any cost. <BR /> <BR />It is an industry that also spends £1·5 billion a year on advertising in the UK. That is a total waste of money, but it also causes severe harm. The way in which operators target their ads at people who are most at risk of harm is absolutely ruthless. Massive amounts of data are harvested about players, including the types of marketing to which people are more susceptible. On the basis of what they respond to, ads are then hyper-targeted at users. Some 60% of gambling companies' profits come from just 5% of users: that is terrifying.”
“Figures suggest — some estimate — that between 4% and 11% of suicides are likely to be gambling-related, but I suspect that the percentage is probably higher. The financial impacts are also devastating. While families who are harmed by gambling fall into debt and destitution, the gambling industry is raking it in. It is literally profiteering from other people's misery. In the UK, the gambling industry is worth over £15 billion. Its insatiable thirst for profit leaves people suffering in its wake. <BR /> <BR />It is also worth mentioning that Bet365 and William Hill have subsidiaries in tax havens around the world, so they are avoiding taxes as well, and we must mention that the names of gambling companies are emblazoned on sports tops and stadiums across the board.”
“Despite that, the North is, as we have heard, a Wild West where gambling reform is falling behind that in the rest of the islands. <BR /> <BR />Gambling harm affects people differently. Rates of prevalence seem to be higher amongst men and boys, though women face specific pressures and challenges when it comes to gambling addiction and recovery. People living in poverty and those with mental health issues are much more likely to gamble, and they are much more at risk of gambling harm. <BR /> <BR />The figures and stats that we have heard today only scratch the surface. For every person with a gambling problem, between five and 10 other people are indirectly harmed by it. There is a lack of data on gambling-related suicide.”
“I thank the Member who moved the motion for speaking out. I also thank the members of the APG for their work. <BR /> <BR />There are clear winners and losers in the gambling industry. The winners are the multinational corporations that rake in the profits. The losers are the punters whose mental and physical health is destroyed by gambling addiction and their loved ones. As we have heard, the rate of problem gambling is consistently higher in the North than it is in the South or in Great Britain. There are at least four times as many people with a gambling problem here than there are in Britain. There are the same number of people experiencing gambling-related harm in the Six Counties as there are in the Twenty-six Counties combined, which is hugely worrying.”
“I applaud the Member for specifically referring to that. Is she also concerned about the games? With games such as 'Fortnite' and others — I am not familiar with them — you can purchase elements inside the game. Sorry if you were going to raise it down the line, but it is concerning, because the games are for kids, but there is also a financial element to them.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am curious: the Minister mentioned something about a health review — I think that he used the words "health screening" — before the order was carried out. Will he expand on that? I am not sure how those who are addicted to gambling are protected by the order. If the Minister can expand on that to allay some of the fears that I and, I am sure, others have, that would be helpful.”
“I do not know whether this is a declaration of interest, but I occasionally engage in gambling responsibly. I also recognise that gambling is a pastime for people but that it has wrecked the lives of people in working-class communities, in particular, and of people in this Building who have spoken about it before. <BR /> <BR />I will say more on the next point later, but I am concerned at the prevalence of gambling companies and their profiteering. Many sports organisations and football and other teams have gambling companies' names emblazoned on their jerseys. I am concerned about that. I certainly do not support a prohibitionist approach to the issue, but I support one that focuses on supporting people who are addicted and have come to harm through gambling.”
“The Minister could have increased the threshold for victims of domestic violence, but, under today's announcement, everyone will lose out, so it is very concerning.”
“I am really concerned about the announcement. I fear that it will put people at risk, and I say that with no exaggeration. For people who are the victim of a paramilitary, racist or domestic violence attack, the announcement effectively says that they cannot quickly get the 200 points required to get out of the house, meaning that they will have to stay there. I am concerned that the announcement is not victim-centred and pits victims of domestic violence against victims of racist violence and other types of violence.”
“<BR /> <BR />Despite all the talk in this institution about exporting the lessons that can be learned from our peace story and all that kind of stuff, it is to the eternal shame of this institution that Ministers could not bring themselves to call for a ceasefire whilst a genocide was being committed live. That should be an important lesson learned for Ministers of this Executive.”
“<BR /> <BR />When news of the ceasefire broke, some people rushed to throw praise on Donald Trump for it, but, in recent days, he has shown his true colours, as he seemingly has given his support for, once again, the forced movement of millions of Palestinians — into Egypt and Jordan this time. Those are countries that Palestinians do not live in or want to go to. By any definition, that is ethnic cleansing on a mass scale. Almost a week into the ceasefire, we have already seen Israel killing Palestinians on the West Bank, including two-year-old Laila al-Khatib, who was shot in the head by the Israeli military. Whilst the lives of Palestinians obviously do not matter to Israel or the occupation forces, they matter to us. That is why we protest and stand up.”
“<BR /> <BR />We cannot be complacent, because there is still a lot of work to do to end the occupation of Palestine, stop the settlements expanding and tear down those apartheid structures, but it is worth saying that people across this island played their part in the stand against Israel. Whilst there is tentative relief amongst people in the Gaza Strip and Palestinians about the ceasefire, I have no doubt that, if called upon again, people in this country — on this island — will come out in their droves. It is worth mentioning that the deal is the exact same deal that was negotiated last year. The obvious question is this: what was the obstacle? It was — surprise, surprise — Israel's reluctance to sign up to and be bound by a peace agreement.”
“There has been almost a year and a half of genocide in an attempt to annihilate a whole people in the Gaza Strip. It is worth saying that Israel, despite committing daily massacres and atrocities, failed in its aims. It stated that Hamas would be "wiped out", but it was not. Israel believed that, as a result of its war, people would rally behind it. The truth is that, as a result of its actions and killings on a mass scale, which were live-streamed, its name is the most toxic that it has ever been. During the war, we saw daily and weekly protests in most countries across the world by people of all faiths and none. Quite notably, in big cities, we saw a sizeable number of Jewish activists who were standing up for Palestine, although that was rarely featured in Western media outlets.”
“It is collective, not specific. As a former Belfast City councillor, does the Member agree that there is also an issue with people not getting their bins collected regularly enough? There is also a lack of small waste bins in and around Belfast in particular and an issue with people having a lot of disposable nappies in bins that may not be collected for three or four weeks. Has she heard that concern as a councillor or as an MLA?”
“Pressure needs to be put on such organisations by taxing them and making sure that they cover the cost of the schemes. <BR /> <BR />Climate action can and should be taken at the individual level, and moving away from using disposable nappy products should be part of that, but we should always place the blame for climate breakdown and excessive resource consumption firmly where it lies: with the corporate profiteers and not with individuals. I am happy to support the amendment and the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />If we are serious about rethinking the way in which we use resources and reducing the amount of our plastic waste that goes to landfill, we need to remove the real economic and social barriers to accessing reusable and sustainable products and aim to make reusable nappies and hygiene products free and easily accessible for all families, beginning with public spaces such as this Building. We also need to recognise that, while parents struggle to pay for nappies and there is increasing demand for baby banks and hygiene banks, massively wealthy corporations are doing what they do best, which is profiteering. Pampers made around $9 billion from global sales last year. The top UK supermarkets recorded a 97% increase in profits as the cost of living continued to soar.”
“A range of disposable and reusable nappies should be available for free in key public buildings, including in places such as 2 Royal Avenue, which is the former Tesco building in the city centre. It has an excellent facility, of which I availed myself recently, that provides parents with access to free nappies. The MAC also has such a facility, and I am sure that other buildings across Belfast do. Such a facility should be standard across the board. As far as I am aware, no nappies or related products are available in this Building. I am happy to be corrected on that, but I do not believe that they are. The Commission should rectify that quickly.”
“Those with more disposable income are likelier to have the time, energy and resources to develop environmentally friendly parenting styles, while others who are more concerned with paying the bills and simply staying afloat are unable to do that. <BR /> <BR />Non-statutory guidance for councils, as proposed by DAERA in the consultation on 'Rethinking Our Resources', should be the bare minimum. A logical next step would be to improve and expand existing schemes. They include Belfast City Council's cloth nappy scheme, which offers parents the chance to try washable nappies for free for, I think, the first two weeks, and, if they then decide to continue to buy reusable nappies, they get £30 in cash back. That scheme should be extended to all council areas.”
“Using cloth nappies can cut costs in the long run, but reusable cloth products require an upfront investment that many people simply cannot make, making buying them unrealistic for many parents and carers. Some families also lack access to a proper washing machine that works adequately. We can see that with the rise in the number of washing machines popping up in shopping centres. Some people simply do not have the time or the money to wash reusable nappies as often as they need to. Reusable nappies are environmentally better, but there is also a real pressure on families that is often not factored into the debate.”
“As has been said, three billion nappies are thrown away every year just in the UK, accounting for around 3% of household waste. They are sent to landfill sites for 500 years, although I should declare an interest as somebody who has probably contributed a few thousand of those nappies in the past couple of years by using them at home. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that reusable nappy products are more sustainable and better for the environment, but we should also remember the poverty premium that many struggling families face everywhere, especially in my constituency. Disposable nappies cost, on average, around £25 a month, and that does not include the cost of wipes and other accessories.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I appreciate that he is finalising the strategy. Does he have any indication or even an estimate, at this stage, about what sort of money will be attached to the anti-poverty strategy?”
“Despite what Executive parties hell-bent on implementing austerity may tell us, child poverty is not inevitable. It is time to make it history.”
“I have no doubt that the Minister will tell us that he plans to present a paper to the Executive in the coming weeks. How many children, Minister, will sit in freezing homes in the coming weeks? How many children will go to bed hungry in the coming weeks while you and your Department refuse to act? Rather than challenging income inequality and taxing the wealthy, those in power tell us that we need to abide by fiscal rules set by London that see endless brutal cuts to public services. Meanwhile, the wealth of the world's billionaires grew by £5·7 billion a day last year. Why should that money continue to line the pockets of the wealthy while hundreds of thousands of children across the North go without food in their stomach or a roof over their head?”
“It is a political choice, and the Stormont Executive's decision not to mitigate the austerity choices is also a political choice and a reminder that the Executive parties here voted for welfare reform in a grubby deal to cut taxes for corporations. Do not forget about that. Executive parties also cut the school holiday food grant and refuse to roll out universal free school meals, despite the huge public demand and need for them. Let us judge them by their actions and the Minister by his actions, rather than words in the Chamber today. <BR /> <BR />As the Deputy Speaker, Mr Aiken, said, the Executive are once again being taken to court over their failure to follow through on their promise to adopt an anti-poverty strategy after nearly 20 years. What is going on?”
“<BR /> <BR />We cannot talk about our broken social security system without mentioning the two-child limit. A total of 16% of children in west Belfast are impacted by the two-child limit. Those children lose out on essential benefits just because they happen to have been born into a larger family. On average, affected families lose out on £3,200 per year per child, which is robbery that is being passed off as something else. Capping a child's entitlement to social security is absolutely inhumane. We do not limit a child's access to healthcare or education on the basis of the size of the family that they were born into, so why do we do it for social security? The two-child limit is a perfect example of the warped austerity logic introduced by the Tories as part of their war against the poor and upheld by a cowardly new Labour Government.”
“No truer words have been spoken. Most of the people who work or volunteer in our food banks do not want to be in the business. They recognise that reliance on food banks to meet people's immediate and basic needs is totally unsustainable. It is nothing more than a sticking plaster, and it is no substitute for a long-term, serious plan to end poverty for good. While we wait for that long-term plan, our social security system constantly fails the needs of families across the North. According to the Child Poverty Action Group, 75% of children in poverty have at least one parent who is working in at least one job. That busts a popular myth that work is a guaranteed way out of poverty. The state is, essentially, subsidising our low-wage economy. That is how employers get away with paying people a pittance.”