Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“I ask the Minister and anybody who is listening this question: why should those who struggle to pay the bills and put food on the table pay the price for years of mismanagement and underinvestment in our water infrastructure? I am worried about an increased ideological drive to implement water charges. We see an article in 'The Irish News' to that effect again today. <BR /> <BR />The Fiscal Council has also advocated an increase in the regional rate and called for "public-sector pay restraint" — pay cuts in a time of price increases — to "improve the manageability" of public finances. I am concerned about that, and I am concerned that there is no concern from other Members and the Finance Committee about that direction of travel and those repeated statements from the Fiscal Council.”
“On the face of it, the broad principles of the Bill are not objectionable. Greater transparency and independent scrutiny of public finances are the bare minimum that the public deserve. The Bill establishes the Fiscal Council on a permanent, statutory basis, as Members have said. <BR /> <BR />Some of the Fiscal Council's announcements over the past four years have been worrying, however, including its statements about the need for sustainable public finances. We know what that means. The chair of the Fiscal Council has told us that failing to introduce water charges has its own costs. That is purely looking at the numbers without looking at the impact that water charges in whatever form would have on working-class families.”
“I appreciate the Minister's giving way. Minister, I am not on the Education Committee, but you said that the practice under article 4(1)(c) was not regularly used: I hope that that is the case. Does the Minister have a breakdown of the figures for how often it was used over the past number of years?”
“— in the future of the education system. I support the motion.”
“The solution lies in recognising the work, dedication and value of all education workers and in paying them what they are worth. The wealth and resources exist in society to do all that. The Executive refuse to invest —”
“There are endless waits for statements, and there is a shortage of therapeutic services, as others touched on. That is a nightmare scenario for families and schools, as they are forced to fight so hard for adequate resourcing and access. Reimagining an inclusive, progressive and rights-based education system is often — daily and annually — put on the back-burner. <BR /> <BR />The solution to the crisis is not to force schools to accept SEN pupils when they do not have the resources or facilities. The solution is not for the Education Minister or the CEO of the Education Authority to, disgracefully, try to shift the blame for the crisis on to underfunded and overstretched schools. The solutions are serious investment in early intervention and prevention as well as in child and adolescent mental health services.”
“The Department must immediately invest in mandatory training for all education workers on the safe and appropriate use of restrictive practices to protect not only children and young people but workers in education settings. Training on restrictive practices should be developed by education workers, including people with the practical day-to-day experience, rather than those who are disconnected from or have never been on the shop floor. That training should be given to teachers, classroom assistants and non-teaching staff. It should also be offered to permanent and temporary workers. <BR /> <BR />The use of restrictive practices in schools is a symptom of a much larger crisis in special educational needs. The under-resourcing of SEN has led to the desperate annual scramble for SEN places, and we are into that cycle again.”
“The idea that, without article 4(1)(c), it would be a Wild West and there would be no intervention at all by staff is simply not true. Both measures have been recommended by countless families, education workers, unions and experts in children's rights. The RCN, as we heard, called for a change in the law. <BR /> <BR />It is also worth saying that the EA is cutting Team Teach training for school staff, using the justification that it is not reducing the number of violent incidents in our schools. I ask the Minister to outline what actions the Department and the EA are taking to prevent harm. I suggest that the answer is not many.”
“It is not about preventing harm or further violence in a situation but about "good order and discipline". The fact that it still exists, is allowed and is on the statute books is shameful. Using restrictive practices to stop a pupil from harming themselves or others is very different from using restraint to keep something in "good order". The language is very Victorian and offensive. I support the motion's call for article 4(1)(c) of the Education Order to be repealed. As was mentioned, the independent Autism Reviewer described that as a legal and moral imperative. The use of seclusion in education settings should be banned outright. <BR /> <BR />It is also worth saying that article 4 also allows for some form of restraint in certain circumstances, such as to prevent personal injury or damage or property.”
“We hear about that, and I commend the people who have been referred to in the debate and those who have spoken out. At school, it is the education workers who bear the brunt of challenging behaviour, especially classroom assistants, who, despite the Minister's announcement last year, are still underpaid and, I think, very much undervalued. When education workers are trying to support a pupil in crisis, they need clarity on what they can do to bring the situation under control. Instead, ambiguous legislation fails to give workers the support and clarity that they need. That obviously needs to change. <BR /> <BR />Article 4 of the 1998 order, as has been referred to, permits the use of restrictive practices against pupils who engage in behaviour that is prejudicial to "good order and discipline".”
“I declare an interest in that I have three siblings who work in education, including in the SEN sector. I support the motion, which has been well laid out by the Chair and Committee members, and I thank them for tabling it. <BR /> <BR />The root causes of challenging behaviour in the education setting are obvious, or they should be: children being packed into overcrowded classrooms; being placed in schools that cannot meet their needs; and being stuck on lengthy waiting lists for diagnosis and treatment. In that context, challenging behaviour will only get worse and more difficult to manage. I worry that, with the Minister's recent announcement, that difficult situation will become more prevalent and arise more regularly. <BR /> <BR />Families deal with the devastating fallout of the SEN crisis at home.”
“I appreciate your giving way, Minister, and I also appreciate that smart data is a pretty broad area. Can you clarify for me and others whether the workers' rights concerns that I raised today and in Committee, specifically the App Drivers and Couriers Union's concern about the right not to be fired algorithmically — is that the word that I am trying to say? — have been addressed in the Act?”
“A lot of clarity is needed, and the Minister has failed to provide that clarity today. His Department has failed to provide it throughout the whole process, so I will join others and vote against this shambolic process again.”
“In other words, there will be a free-for-all for big corporations, and no protections were mentioned by the Minister in the process at all. The Secretary of State was also given new regulation powers, as referred to by the Minister, to effectively allow the wide use of automated decision-making to take place in regard to new universal technologies. Already-limited protections will be disregarded and, moreover, large tech companies could abuse the provisions to legitimise mass data scraping. Personal data scraped from the internet or collected via "legitimate interest" by a social media platform about its users could potentially be legally reused for training AI systems for the new provisions, and developers can claim that it constitutes scientific research. <BR /> <BR />It sounds technical and is, but the devil is in the detail.”
“and be classed as scientific research. I have no idea what safeguards are in place to protect people from that. I am happy to give way to the Minister or anyone else on that point. <BR /> <BR />Worryingly, the Bill gives regulation-making powers to the British Secretary of State that would:”
“<BR /> <BR />Part of the drive and rationale for the Act is to stimulate innovation through broadening the definitions of scientific research for which data can be shared and reused. There is a concern that:”
“<BR /> <BR />The Ada Lovelace Institute identified three aspects of the Act that require particular scrutiny. The Act removes the general prohibition on automated decision-making. That means that people no longer get to choose whether to be subject to automated decision-making. It places the responsibility on them to enforce their rights, rather than on companies to demonstrate why automation is permissible. It is a very risky process to put the onus on the individual rather than on resource-rich organisations that have a material interest in quick, automated decision-making to boost profit and maximise access to and use of data. There are safeguards mentioned in the Act, but my concern is that they will not be enough.”
“A Dutch court made a similar decision on Uber and Ola's practices around automated decision-making. <BR /> <BR />Given the shambolic process with the LCM, I have no idea whether that process has been extended here. I suspect that it has. I wonder whether the Finance Minister or the Economy Minister has inquired about the impact of the Act on couriers or delivery workers here. I doubt that they have, but I am happy to be corrected. <BR /> <BR />AI companies are motivated by hoovering up as much data as possible and maximising profit. It is critical that the provisions leave no scope for abuse. I remain unconvinced of that. The Data (Use and Access) Act contains measures that would lower safeguards for personal data, which should concern everybody here, especially those who talk about freedom of speech.”
“The Couriers Union has discussed people being dismissed from their job by an algorithm — by a ping on their app. Deliveroo's use of the Frank platform to manage more than 8,000 gig-worker riders through the automated decision-making process was found to be unlawful by the Italian Data Protection Authority, which stated that it produced:”
“I am deeply concerned about whether the Act does that at all, and it is not just me. The Ada Lovelace Institution, the App Drivers and Couriers Union (ADCU) and others have raised concerns that the impact of the changes have not been fully considered in light of the last few months, and I will raise their concerns throughout my contribution. If the public were focusing on this botched process — I do not blame them for not focusing on it — I would hazard a guess that they would be asking far more questions about what has happened and what is now acceptable and in law. <BR /> <BR />The so-called democratisation of AI tools has resulted in automated decision-making being deployed on a much greater scale across the economy than ever before and in many more high-risk and complicated contexts with no proper regulation.”
“Unfortunately, AI and much of the technology surrounding it is in the wrong hands. It is in the hands of people who not only do not give a damn about democracy and suck up to the likes of Trump and his autocratic regime but are willing to suck up resource and energy usage for the expansion of AI, no matter the financial, environmental or human cost, some of whom are willing to fight trade wars and actual wars with China over resource and access to markets. <BR /> <BR />In its original form, the Data (Use and Access) Bill referred to:”
“Sometimes; sometimes not. <BR /> <BR />The British Government do not give a damn about people here generally, and, given their handling of the legislation, they do not care about their data and how it is used and protected. My concerns run further than process and procedure, and I hope that I can get some answers to my points from the Minister. <BR /> <BR />In many ways, I agree with Mr Frew that it is a bit of a pointless debate, but we are all here. The legislative process has been and gone, but there are massive questions about what extra powers the companies that hold data have and what companies that employ people and have huge control over people's lives will be able to do now that the legislation has been passed at Westminster. <BR /> <BR />In the right hands, AI could bring benefits to the vast majority of people.”
“There is no doubt that the process for the LCM was a shambles from beginning to end. I do not often agree with my Committee colleagues, but they are absolutely correct on that point.”
“We have seen the cost of housing on the north coast reaching astronomical levels due to the Open, with the cost of a week's stay in the thousands. That is driving people out of homes and making housing unaffordable. Does the Minister agree that that is further evidence of the need for rent controls and rent reductions?”
“That demand is placed on the British Government, and I do not oppose that, but the motion fails to acknowledge the Executive's ongoing complicity in arming Israel's genocidal regime. Just under £20 million of public money was given by Invest NI to four companies that operate in the North and make component parts for F-35 jets, the same jets that dropped three 2,000 lb bombs on a so-called safe zone in Gaza last July, but the Economy Minister will not own up to the Executive's complicity. As reported in the detail, officials use narrow definitions —.”
“I agree with the Member that it is a broad-based movement with different strategies and trends. It is a global, peaceful movement. It is worth Members in the House remembering that it is made up of many Jewish people in Britain, America and across the world. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that, as the motion states, Queen's and Trinity are divesting from Israeli companies. That is progress, but there is more work for Queen's and others to do. I also support the motion's call:”
“Justice can come only from grassroots movements piling on the pressure and punishing Israel when Western states and our legal institutions refuse to do so.”
“The Western legal machine upholds power imbalances, it facilitates the genocide of Palestinians, and it allows liberal democracies to ignore and even assist Israel's apartheid regime. That is how Israel gets away with using starvation as a weapon of war. It uses international law to its advantage, backed by Europe and the US. War crimes are denied, dismissed or watered down in colonial, bureaucratic diplomacy. That is why the UUP's amendment refers to Israel's self-defence — we know what that means — rather than illegal occupation. The UUP talks about a military campaign rather than a genocide, which is what is happening. Ultimately, justice will not come from international courts or resolutions while international law is not enforced and arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant are ignored.”
“Israel's war on Iran will not disrupt its genocidal agenda in Gaza. It will provide only a smokescreen and further cover for this Israeli state to act with even less scrutiny. Each inhumane assault from Israel is a continuation of a bloodthirsty campaign that is marked by impunity and freedom from punishment. <BR /> <BR />It seems that there is no limit to what the world will let Israel get away with and what the parties to my right will defend at all costs. As Israel bombs its sixth neighbouring territory in less than two years, the US and Europe continue to politically and materially protect this rogue state. Israel's genocide against Palestinians does not signify a breakdown in international law or a lapse in global justice. Israel's continued impunity is proof that international law is working exactly as intended.”
“At risk of sinking, the ship was forced to stop, and its aid was left undelivered. If a rival of the West launched a potentially lethal attack on a humanitarian vessel just outside the territorial waters of an EU member state, there would be global outrage and, I suspect, sanctions, but Israel is an ally of the West, not an enemy. It seems that, in this debate, everyone bar Israel is the enemy, so no punishment is required. <BR /> <BR />There are no consequences for a state that has produced the largest number of child amputees in modern history, not to mention that it has killed the most journalists in all wars. The West does not crack down on a state that attacks Iran, Israel's biggest rival in the Middle East, under the pretext of Iran having nuclear weapons. It does not.”
“Go and look at history book. If you look up the word al-Nakba, you will find that it started well before that. Researchers believe that, at the moment, the death toll could be twice as high, with almost 100,000 people killed by Israel. That is according to 'The Lancet' — not the Lancet Hamas journal but the scientific journal. <BR /> <BR />Israel acts with impunity while the West does nothing. On 1 May, heavy military transport took off from an Israeli airbase and stopped off the coast of Malta. In the seas below, a passenger vessel was carrying food and medicine for the people of Gaza — civilians who were sick, starving and dying due to a two-month aid blockade imposed by Israel. While the Israeli military plane circled above, suicide drones rocked the ship below.”
“Thank you. The Member talked about context, but I remind him that this violence did not start on 7 October 2023.”
“It is important in any debate, but especially this one, to be accurate. No Israeli babies were beheaded or put in ovens on 7 October or thereafter. That was a myth that was propagated by an Israeli colonel, or an army general, called Golan Vach. What did happen, though, was that Hind Rajab, a five-year-old Palestinian girl, was assassinated by the IDF. Her family car had 335 bullet holes put in it, but I note that there was no mention of that by the parties to my right. <BR /> <BR />We are now 20 months and at least 55,000 deaths —.”
“I appreciate the junior Minister giving way and welcome her comments about not replicating the Southern scheme. I appreciate that we are in the early stages, Minister, but will you clarify whether there have been any discussions about Capita's involvement in any of the payment schemes? There have been serious human rights concerns raised about Capita in the past, and I hope that it will not be considered for administering any of these payment schemes.”
“The issues with the Bill are so significant that many victims are thinking of leaving the consultation forum. KRW Law, as many know, has called the Bill "unfit for purpose". Survivors need nothing less than full redress and a complete criminal investigation with transparency in its findings. As has been said, the lessons from the Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Act 2023 in the South must be learned. To be frank, I do not know whether they have been. Records must be made fully available to the public for the sake of basic transparency and accountability. It is time to go back to the drawing board and put victims and survivors, rather than the state's balance sheet, at the heart of the Bill. If that is not done, my party will table amendments to it.”
“Respectfully, I say to the Minister — I hope that she will agree — that the scale of horrific institutional abuse was without precedent. The financial cost of the Bill is easily quantified, but the human cost is not. The drive to save money cannot override the needs of victims and survivors. It is also worth noting that, in recent days, £200 million has been found, seemingly down the back of a sofa, to fund the PSNI, so money should be found for victims and survivors.”
“The junior Minister said that extending the eligibility date back to the 1920s would be "without precedent".”
“The arbitrary cut-off date of September 2011 means that potentially thousands of prospective applicants will not be entitled to redress payments. I have already been contacted by people who feel let down by the cut-off date, and I am sure that other Members have been as well. <BR /> <BR />As has been mentioned, the Bill details a £10,000 payment for each eligible person and a £2,000 payment for each eligible family member. I support comments made earlier in the debate about the importance of increasing payments in line with inflation, although the figures are not a true reflection of the harm done, to put it mildly. Money alone will not undo the decades of damage done by cruel institutional abuse, but, for many, it will be a small, formal recognition by the state of the trauma that mothers and their children went through.”
“That should be emphasised and included in the debate. The children were branded illegitimate on birth and taken from their mothers. There was nothing wrong with those children and their mothers, but everything was wrong with the society into which they were born. Some were adopted without consent while others were raised in institutions only to face death from malnutrition and burial in mass graves. <BR /> <BR />Survivors and their families, campaign groups and solicitors have highlighted multiple significant issues with the legislation as it stands. Workhouse victims have been excluded from the payments scheme. Foster care home survivors have also been left behind. Like the Member for North Belfast, I do not understand why there are limits, and I fear that that will create division amongst victims and survivors.”
“The cruelty meted out by mother-and-baby institutions is really difficult to comprehend. I commend all those who have spoken out and those who are here today. The reality is that women across the North were kept prisoners in secretive institutions that were largely controlled by religious orders. The Church and state authorities were fully aware of what was happening in those homes. There was collusion between the Churches and the state to impose a repressive, misogynistic regime on the population, especially women. Those who did not comply faced institutionalisation. Women were subjected to flagrant human rights abuses, arbitrary detention, forced labour, abuse and the removal and forced adoption of their babies. Children from the Traveller community and working-class women in particular were treated with cruelty and disdain.”
“I remind the Minister that rubber bullets and AEPs are deadly and dangerous, and they are being used. I am disappointed with that answer. Minister, how confident are you that the new money will not be used to continue the use of stop-and-search and plastic and rubber bullets, which can be lethal? Your website states that it is your responsibility to support access to justice and victims of crime. I think that the people who are targeted by those two categories fall under that.”
“The number of children living in temporary accommodation over the past five years should not be normalised, but the figure has doubled over that period. Children's futures and well-being are effectively being destroyed by a lack of safe, secure and permanent housing, and poor housing has a massive impact on mental health, physical well-being, access to education and social and emotional well-being. It should not be up to the people in the Public Gallery, but fair play to them for putting pressure on the Executive and the Minister for their inaction.”
“They have been working with the Westcourt homeless centre, NICCY and others through a convention on the rights of children perspective and have highlighted the fact that over 18,000 children in the North are homeless, which is completely unacceptable and completely unfair. I welcome them today, and I pay tribute to them for their actions, the petition and the work that they have done and will continue to do. <BR /> <BR />That is, of course, not to forget people who are forced into temporary accommodation. Over 5,000 families are living in temporary accommodation without a permanent, secure place to call home. There are over 5,700 children who are growing up homeless in Belfast alone. Almost half of those children — almost half — live in my constituency of West Belfast. That is disgraceful.”
“They are primary-school children, but they are activists from Edmund Rice schools right across the North. They are here to highlight the impact of homelessness on children and young people. They are from Armagh Christian Brothers' Primary School, John Paul II Primary School in my constituency and St Patrick's Primary School in north Belfast. They are student council members who went out of their way to organise a petition and get people to sign it to show their disgust at the scourge of homelessness in our society. They have already gathered 1,200 signatures, which is a tremendous achievement.”
“We need to see action from the Executive to address the scourge of homelessness right across our society for everybody, but particularly for our children and young people. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to the primary schools that are represented in the Public Gallery and at Stormont today.”
“The Executive have failed to get a grip of the housing crisis, and, despite talk in the Programme for Government of making housing a priority, the truth is that the Executive have failed to act. Rents have shot up, and the Executive have refused to implement rent controls or rent reductions. Evictions have continued for Housing Executive tenants and those who are in the private rented sector, and the Executive have refused to implement a no-fault eviction ban. <BR /> <BR />One of the most cruel aspects of the crisis is the impact that it is having on children and young people. Whilst the impact that homelessness is having on children and young people is a daily feature of mainstream news in the South, it has been normalised and, quite often, forgotten about in the North.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. Does he agree that a moratorium will be completely pointless if licences are granted and approved for companies to begin and extend the process of extraction?”
“The Member for Mid Ulster talked about not controlling our own affairs: that cannot be used as an excuse to give cover to her party colleague the Minister for the Economy and her approach to do the bidding of big American, Canadian and other multinational extractive companies that are interested in only one thing: not jobs or communities in Mid Ulster or elsewhere but profit. There is no point in decrying —.”
“People who live and work in the Sperrins know full well that prospecting licences are the first step to getting access to precious metals. In a bizarre neocolonial twist, the Crown Estate owns the rights to precious metals buried in Derry and receives a 4% tax on those that are mined, so this could well be to the benefit of the royal family. What an irony. <BR /> <BR />People and places are not extractable resources. Our Sperrins and areas elsewhere are not a blank slate for the accumulation of capital and wealth for shareholders, corporations or anybody else. It is not too late for the Economy Minister or the junior Minister who is standing in her place to take action and listen to the voices of local communities, campaigners and the vast majority of the public and rescind the licences.”
“It seems that, while the dissenting voices of the public and even of councils are dismissed and do not matter, the lobbying of Peter Mandelson and US congressmen holds infinitely more weight with the Minister and her Executive colleagues. <BR /> <BR />It has been mentioned that, in 2022, the current Economy Minister, who then held the Finance portfolio, called for a moratorium on all prospecting licences. Now, three years later, she has made a catastrophic U-turn and decided to grant them. Many people, including me, wonder why that is the case. If the Minister wants to claim that the Department's legal advice on this is sound, she should publish it. Furthermore, what is the point of Ministers if they cannot act? The Minister wants to claim disingenuously that her Department does not grant prospecting licences for gold and silver.”