Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“That is being strong-armed, to put it kindly.”
“Thanks to the Member for securing the debate. I absolutely support the campaign against the Hightown incinerator and Arc21 and for the incinerator not to be developed. I give my support once again to the No-ARC21 campaign, the residents, the environmentalists and everybody who has campaigned against the incinerator for many years. <BR /> <BR />Many years ago, when I was a councillor, I was on the Arc21 committee. I opposed the incinerator then, as I do now, alongside my councillor colleagues. I return to something that Mr Durkan said. The approach has been to make councillors petrified about a decision. My recollection is that significant pressure was put on me and many other councillors to go along with the decision or there would be massive ramifications for ratepayers and councils. That is not an open or democratic process.”
“If we want to see truth, reconciliation and justice, we will find it in the campaigns and the fight by communities, families and their supporters. That has ever been the case. <BR /> <BR />We support the motion, and we support the Finucane family. We hope that they get what they are fighting for. Mr Beattie referenced the Stormont House Agreement. Some families fear that its implementation might mean an amnesty for generals and troops. My party was not involved in that agreement. We had no MLAs at the time. My party and I will vigorously oppose any attempts, through any agreements, to issue an amnesty, especially for state forces.”
“Of course, that is what is behind Boris Johnson's proposed amnesty. It would keep high-ranking figures out of courtrooms lest that further expose their rotten legacy to the world. Protecting the top brass at all costs is what Boris Johnson is up to, and he needs to be resisted. <BR /> <BR />Cover-ups have never brought reconciliation. Denying justice is the antithesis of reconciliation. We have seen the hardship and the generational trauma that it inflicts. Johnson's call for truth and reconciliation has nothing to with reconciling the past, and that does not even touch on the man's relationship with the truth, which no one should trust him to deliver. His response to the Ballymurphy inquiry verdict demonstrated his true motives and intent.”
“When the state is involved in killing citizens, there is an onus on all of us to demand such justice, and we know that the state was involved in the untimely and merciless murder of Pat Finucane by loyalist gunmen. It is in the interests of everyone that the state is held to account. Everybody — people in Belfast, people in Derry and people in between, people of all religions and none, and the people in England, such as the people of Grenfell and the family of Jean Charles de Menezes — has a right to truth and justice. <BR /> <BR />I offer my solidarity to Pat Finucane's family. They should never have had to experience what they did. That they were forced to fight for the truth for decades after watching their father die is a damning indictment of the British Government's attempt to cover up their role in the Troubles to this day.”
“In this past week, we all witnessed the importance of getting the truth and, finally, getting an acknowledgement that what happened to people's loved ones during the Troubles was wrong and deserves justice. The Ballymurphy families had to wait for five decades for the truth. Now, they begin a new battle for justice on the basis that their relatives, who were gunned down, were unarmed and innocent, which they knew all along. <BR /> <BR />It is unconscionable that the Finucane family should have to wait any longer for the inquiry that they were promised. It is an inquiry that they deserve. Not only do they deserve answers, they deserve justice.”
“Those issues are part of mental health and tackling mental health problems. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion, obviously, and pay tribute to the many important groups in my constituency and beyond. There are too many to name, but Compass Counselling on the Shankill is an important cross-community organisation that, unfortunately, has to fight for funding. I have already mentioned the #123GP campaign, and there is the Lenadoon counselling service. I am sure that I have left out many, but there are many good services in my constituency and beyond. I pay tribute to them and thank them for their work.”
“Class is one of the main determinants of whether people will be ill and whether they can get access to services. People with a few thousand pounds in the bank can get access to cancer services and, possibly, other services, if they can fork out that money, but not everybody has access to such money, as the almost 400,000 people who are in poverty here can attest to. <BR /> <BR />We also need to call out the role of sectarianism and bigotry in our society and racism, homophobia and sexism in our communities, which Mr Muir touched on. Those issues need to be tackled generally and, specifically, the role that they play in making people's mental health worse. People leave these shores because of the poisonous atmosphere in society and the role played by some people in whipping that up.”
“Globally, the wealthy have increased their lot from $5 trillion to $13 trillion. That is the greatest swindle of our time, and it took place when we were trying to manage and fight the pandemic. One Member said that poor mental health can affect anybody: of course, that is true, but it is not the full picture, as the discussion has touched on. If you are in a working-class or deprived community, you are more likely to have health problems, as we heard at Question Time. You are more likely to have mental health issues, life obstacles and so on. The #123GP campaign pointed out that 50% of GP services in my constituency and, I think, in others in the North are without access to in-house counselling. That is scandalous, when other constituencies have 100% access. Why does that discrepancy exist? It needs to be tackled and addressed.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I agree with the Member. Obviously, self-medication is a further problem on top of that. <BR /> <BR />Coming out of the pandemic, despite words to the contrary, there has been an acceptance that what went before can and must continue going forward. We have to reject that narrative outright.”
“I do not doubt his personal commitment to the issue of mental health — I have said that before — but I remain unconvinced that there is a plan beyond the mental health strategy to increase the number of counsellors, psychiatric nurses and psychologists to the level that we need to see. After the Minister's comments at last week's Health Committee, I remain unconvinced that there is a plan in place with the current budget.”
“My main concern is that people I know, people in my constituency and many others across the North, have reached out and taken that important step and, instead of getting immediate and urgent access to services, many of them, some of whom have presented at A&E, have been sent home and put on a waiting list for weeks to get the appropriate help. That is very worrying. <BR /> <BR />The CAMHS figures that the Chair quoted earlier are also very concerning and worrying for the people who need help. My main concern is that the Minister is essentially presiding over an underfunded and broken system.”
“I thank the Chair and Committee colleagues for bringing this important motion to the Floor today. Obviously, last week was Mental Health Awareness Week, and this is a very important and timely debate for everyone who had mental health problems, illnesses, stress, anxiety and depression before the pandemic and those who will or may experience those issues at a greater level or for the first time after the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />The fact is that people's lives and, in many ways, the world was turned upside down by the pandemic. It would not be surprising if there was an increase in mental health issues as a result of the necessary measures that were put in place to protect people because of COVID. The motion correctly notes that people who are facing difficulties should reach out and seek help, and that is, of course, safe and sound advice.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Figures that we discussed recently in the Health Committee show that men in deprived areas die seven years younger than those in more affluent areas. The figure was five years for women. Those figures are really shocking. Belfast has 32 areas, and Derry and Strabane have 25, in which they perform below the average for health outcomes. Does the Minister agree that poverty is the main driver of those inequalities and that, in order to tackle health inequalities, we need urgent action on the eradication of poverty?”
“Thanks to the Minister for his answer. Minister, my understanding is that that 4·8% includes progression and that 60% of workers will not see any real-terms increase in their pay. I also understand that the Tories include progression as part of pay offers as well, as a way of disguising meagre pay offers or, indeed, pay cuts. I expect workers to reject the offer, and if they do, they will have my full support. If that is the case, what will the Minister's response be to those workers?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not use any swear words. Can you check Hansard, Mr Speaker, where Mr Humphrey alleged, or at least insinuated, once again that Palestinian protests in Belfast are leading to a rise in antisemitic attacks in our city? Everybody here is opposed to antisemitism. Such comments are inaccurate, unfounded and have no basis in evidence.”
“In our thousands and in our millions, we are all Palestinians. Victory to the intifada. Expel the Israeli ambassador from Ireland.”
“It is shameful that the Member for North Belfast tries to insinuate, as he has done before, that Palestinian protests in Belfast have led to an increase in antisemitic attacks. It is deplorable, inaccurate and very, very dangerous, and he has no evidence of it whatsoever. People across the world, including Muslim people, Jewish people, Christian people, secular people and many others, are standing against Israel because it is an occupier, an aggressor and an apartheid state. So many are angry because of what Israel is doing. <BR /> <BR />The Members opposite who expressed faux concern about Hamas and its role in the oppression of Palestinians should open their eyes. Look at the slaughter being carried out by Israel. Look at the occupation. Look at the checkpoints. Open your eyes. <BR /> <BR />Solidarity to the Palestinians.”
“<BR /> <BR />Today there has been an attempt by some of those opposite, the mainstream media and many others to make this a two-sided debate. Let us be clear that this is not an equal battle. Home-made rockets are no match for F-16 jet fighters. Israelis can seek shelter, but Palestinians have absolutely nowhere to hide. Israeli settlers have the best infrastructure in the region, and they have a nuclear state. Palestinians are subjected to absolute poverty and misery as a result of what Israel is doing.”
“What has happened over the last week in particular is disgraceful and has shown the world what the Israeli state represents and what it is all about. This past weekend, al-Nakba was commemorated by Palestinians. That was 73 years ago. They refer to it as the catastrophe, and it was the founding of the Israeli state. That state was built on settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, forced displacement and violence to name but a few of its issues. It now practises apartheid. Israel is an apartheid state. It is not just a bad state or a state that does bad things: it is an apartheid state. That is the view not just of me or my party but a view that has been declared by Desmond Tutu, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem and many more organisations.”
“What happened in Ballymurphy revealed to the eyes of the world the rotten role of British imperialism in Ireland. It was imperialism in the form of internment without trial, torture, state collusion with loyalist paramilitaries, shoot to kill and, ultimately, the murder of innocent people, and that was how the British state responded to basic demands for civil rights and democracy. In that month, the British Army left 54 people in Ballymurphy without a parent. Some were evacuated to the South and put into refugee camps, and others were taunted by the military after having their families brutalised. Those families deserve truth and justice, and, while Boris does not want to see that enacted, we need to press to make sure that it happens.”
“It is not necessarily about protecting the soldiers who fired the shots on the day in August 1971; Boris Johnson wants to cover for those at the very top who directed soldiers in the North during the Troubles, including people like General Mike Jackson, who was there on the ground directing soldiers in Ballymurphy in 1971 and at Bloody Sunday in Derry six months later. <BR /> <BR />When the state murders its citizens, it is in the interests of all people and all communities to seek truth and justice. We say that the British state should be on trial for what it did in Ballymurphy and that those who were culpable in that massacre — the soldiers, the generals and the politicians at the very top — should go on trial in court and be locked up for what they did.”
“However, the same cannot be said of Boris Johnson or his ministerial colleagues, who went into hiding last week and treated the families with utter contempt. At first, there was no apology; then one was eventually issued in secret. There was no attempt to empathise or sympathise with the families. Despite his pronouncements, Boris and the Tories do not give a damn about truth, justice or reconciliation. The campaign for an amnesty that he is pursuing is about shutting the door in the face of families who want truth and justice.”
“I thank the Member for bringing the matter to the House. "Unarmed" and "innocent": that is how, at last week's inquest, Justice Keegan described the Ballymurphy victims gunned down in cold blood 50 years ago. That is despite the barrage of abuse and propaganda that tried to misrepresent and falsify who those people in Ballymurphy were and what they were doing in August 1971 and despite the actions of the British media, Government and state representatives to project those people as gunmen and gunwomen. They were not, and that is what Justice Keegan clearly articulated last week. No ifs, no buts and no whataboutery can alter that fact. <BR /> <BR />The Ballymurphy families have shown courage, bravery, grit and determination in the face of the huge obstacles and adversity placed in front of them.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will she note that Unite and others who represent farmers and food producers have raised concerns that the scrapping of the Agricultural Wages Board would place people who are already in precarious situations in further danger of low pay? The Minister has proposed to do that while claiming fake and faux concern about people in that sector. Does the Member agree with that?”
“<BR /> <BR />I support the Bill, and I extend my solidarity to the school students; XR activists; all those people in the Climate Coalition; everyone who has stood up to protect the environment recently and over the last number of years; all those campaigning against Dalradian Gold in Tyrone; those campaigning for action around the Mobuoy dump; residents in my constituency campaigning to address the issues emanating from the Mullaghglass site; and the many more campaigns both on this island and across the world.”
“If a state can intervene in the middle of a global pandemic to provide some level of protection and support, what justification can there be for a lack of intervention to prevent further descent towards climate catastrophe, which will threaten the lives and health of our communities, those of millions of people across the world and, ultimately, our ability to survive into the future? How many livelihoods could be improved or even saved with such an approach? <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, I do not think that this or any Bill will force the hand for action, but these are important, though limited, steps in the right direction. We know what it will take: an almighty shift on the streets to break politicians, with their reckless record in Stormont.”
“They would have written an environmental charter for companies that forces them to adhere to zero carbon and emission reductions. They would have broken with their addiction to roads and cars already, forced pension funds to disinvest from destructive fossil fuel companies or else risk operating illegally and tackled many more issues. <BR /> <BR />It is worth pointing out that the COVID-19 pandemic challenged the idea that the state does not or cannot intervene in areas of health or provide support to communities and workers. Leaving aside how many people fell through the cracks or how slowly some actions were implemented, the state intervened and implemented measures, and that puts it up to those who argue for and support a Thatcherite, small-state vision of society and the further privatisation of public services etc.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ultimately, we need a new system that includes farmers, food producers and workers and is one that puts the needs of communities at its centre. That would capture the spirit and idea of a just transition, which is in the Bill. A just transition must also extend to the creation of a greener economy that creates jobs by building public homes that are fit for purpose, extending carbon sinks and re-wetting bogs. Homes, jobs and a healthier environment: tick, tick, tick. However, it is that kind of break that threatens private developers, big extractors and those who do well in society as it is. That is where we get the resistance and lobbying. <BR /> <BR />Any Government worth their salt would have made a start already on what is in the Bill.”
“In doing so, we have to separate the interests of the small and medium farmers from those big food production plants which, ultimately, have an interest in keeping things as they are. <BR /> <BR />I find it galling that some expressed faux concern about farmers while supporting or saying nothing about the Minister's plan to scrap the Agricultural Wages Board, which provides some protection for those workers. Workers on the food production line have been failed time and time again. Notably, they have suffered higher rates of COVID infection. They are paid extremely low wages and reports of conditions, particularly for migrant workers, say that they leave a lot to be desired. Importantly, we need a just transition for them as well.”
“Through a just transition to sustainable production, we can see that change. <BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, big producers and even some Members in this House would rather see us separate out the issue of agriculture and methane production. That is thoroughly unambitious and undermining. We need to look at the figures: 25% of human greenhouse emissions come from agriculture, food production and deforestation, and this kind of agriculture capitalism is, ultimately, failing workers as well as the planet. The UN has stated that feeding a world population of 9·1 billion people will require the raising of food production by around 70% from 2005 levels. Clearly, this will lead to a massive spike in emissions and has to be addressed.”
“The system is intrinsically linked to the production of food on the basis of profit rather than need, and this generates waste, destroys the natural earth and often produces huge amounts of emissions, particularly methane. To tackle this, we need to see farmers enabled to produce more sustainably and financially supported to do so. Small farmers in particular do not benefit from the current system, as many have maybe ducked the question. As Mike Davis has noted, the problem occurs:”
“I think that, in order to stick to the principles of a just transition, there are a number of priorities that we must adopt, whether through the process of this Bill or future Bills, and these are issues that movements around the world are calling for. <BR /> <BR />The first is the democratisation of planning and the economy. That would allow us to put the needs of communities and the environment first when making key decisions about resources. It should not be limited to housebuilding, although that is clearly important. We need to talk about democratising the planning and the funding of food and transport as well. Take food: we have supermarkets planning how to fill their stores, what food production lines they use and what quality to bulk buy, all on the basis of maximising profit.”
“People today can be jailed for non-payment of TV licence fees but major corporate polluters — people who are serial emitters and destroyers of our natural environment who ignore and breach environmental regulations — are likely to be given licences, grants and, in many cases, even protection from the police when challenged. This must change, and the climate commissioner must be allowed to work without political or business interference. <BR /> <BR />I also welcome the focus in this Bill on a just transition. We know beyond doubt that the climate crisis hurts those at the bottom of society the most, and, through intervention, the most vulnerable must be assisted as we move towards a more eco-orientated society.”
“We must see the rise in emissions, the use of fossil fuels and plastic, and environmentally damaging practices as being directly connected to the rise of capitalism, particularly the neoliberal version of the past 40 to 50 years. Environmental breakdown and inequality are essential to both. I know that that may sound like sacrilege to some in this House, but, unless we point this out, many of the aims of the Bill and our ability to effectively challenge the climate crisis in society at large will likely be unachievable. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the role of a climate commissioner in this Bill. An independent scrutineer of our environmental efforts will be vital to hold us to the aim of targeting the big polluters and reducing emissions.”
“The failure of Governments or, more realistically, the complicity of Governments around the world has fuelled rising temperatures, uncontrollable gas emissions and the resulting weather catastrophes that harm the most vulnerable. <BR /> <BR />That is the context under which this Bill was written, and, in that context, I think that it is important. Unlike Mr Beggs, I do not think that it goes far enough, to be frank. I agreed to co-sign and support the Bill because it is a start, locally, to challenging climate change, and I remain utterly unconvinced that Ministers in the Executive would take even these introductory measures if left to their own devices.”
“The Polish socialist Rosa Luxemburg said over 100 years ago that we are faced with a choice of overhauling the system in favour of socialism or facing the descent into barbarism. Those words have been repeated countless times since, but I think that it would be hard to imagine a scenario about which that phrase could more aptly be applied than to the climate crisis facing our planet today. The crisis that we face ultimately has its roots in capitalism: in pillaging, burning and aggressively extracting from our earth at a ceaseless rate to feed an ever-growing profit drive, regardless of the consequences for the environment. Those who bear the most responsibility sit at the top of society, raking in said profits while shaping a narrative that all individuals share the responsibility for a crisis of their making.”
“How can those workers and UCU members have any faith in the Minister's being objective and impartial if she meets only one side and refuses to meet the other?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. However, I and many workers in the UCU find it frankly insulting and offensive that she refused to meet them and their reps directly. At any time, and at any level, that is unacceptable, but especially in the middle of a pandemic, when workers have worked throughout it while in dispute with their employers. Currently, in further education, they are taking strike action. Not only has the Minister refused to meet unions and workers' representatives, but she and her officials have met employers during the same period — one side in the dispute.”
“It is very disappointing that the Department is not providing match funding for that vital service, which has provided support for tens of thousands of people, including my constituents. Many will ask how things have got this far, why the funding was not included in the budget after implementing welfare reform, why Belfast City Council has to match fund half of it and why the Department cannot fully fund it for next year. Minister, what message does it send to advice workers, citywide and across the North, that you have not done this?”
“Chris Whitty said that there will be an inevitable rise in cases in England, so, presumably, a bit of work is being done with hospitality and retail in order to talk about the expected rise in cases here.”
“As other Members said, we need clarity about what staying local means. People can travel to caravans and similar set-ups and environments. Can they do that for leisure? Is it within the current regulations, or what is the situation with that? As Pat Sheehan and others said, we need caution. There is a very worrying scenario not only in India, where there is a rise in cases and new variants, but in Chile, which lifted restrictions too quickly and where cases and deaths rocketed and spiralled. Everybody, including me, wants restrictions to be lifted as quickly and as soon as possible. However, it is better to be too cautious and wrong than to be reckless and move too quickly. I ask the junior Minister to answer this in his response: what is the modelling for predicted cases?”
“At last week's Health Committee, we found out that no new money has been set aside to give a pay increase to healthcare workers in our communities. Health workers risk their lives, and the least the Executive can do is to meet their union's demands for a just pay settlement. As things stand, it does not look like that will take place, and that is a severe failure for those workers. <BR /> <BR />Last week was a fiasco for hospitality. Some organisations that did not throw their staff under the bus were told that they could not open, despite being able to open last year. Other organisations could open seemingly without any bother, despite throwing their workers under the bus by disgracefully withholding pay or, in some cases, sacking them. We need to recognise that what happened last week was a fiasco and does not need to be repeated.”
“Last weekend, I received my first dose of vaccine at the SSE Arena. I thank all those health workers who administered it to me and the many hundreds of thousands of people who have received one or two doses of the vaccine. It was a surreal but remarkable event and experience, to be frank. It struck me that our health service and vaccination programme has a global workforce, and it would not be able to function without the many international and migrant workers that keep it running. Obviously, everyone rises and thanks our NHS workers — and I have just done that, and I do it throughout these debates — but what is thanks when there is no official recognition or remuneration for the work of those important and essential workers?”
“It is true to say that the old world is dying and the new world is fighting to be born. In that fight, our party will be a socialist voice for challenging both states, North and South, in the interests of working-class people across the board.”
“<BR /> <BR />As James Connolly said it would, partition created a "carnival of reaction" on both sides of the border: in the South, a state based on the oppressive power of the Catholic Church that locked women up; and, in the North, an orange state in the image of the Unionist Party and the Orange Order. Partition created permanent divisions that have been cynically exploited by elites on both sides of the border to keep workers and ordinary people in their place. Partition has firmly held back progress on both sides of the border. <BR /> <BR />We want to learn from history for sure, but we are not for celebrating the anniversary of partition. We want to see a socialist Ireland based on equality, justice and solidarity, where there is a world without borders and without imperialist war.”
“That included having battalions of the British Army here, sectarian policing, the gerrymandering of electoral boundaries to ensure unionist power and a deep level of discrimination against the minority nationalist community in housing, jobs and the democratic franchise. <BR /> <BR />Of course, it is worth remembering that, in the aftermath of partition, many radical Protestants were expelled from the workforce, as they were deemed to be a threat to the state. Such was the nature of the injustices enshrined in the Northern state that it took mass upheaval through peaceful protest to challenge discrimination. The civil rights movement in the late 1960s was, of course, met with violence and repression by the unionist Government and the British military, creating the context for a sustained period of violence.”
“People Before Profit does not support the idea that the centenary of partition is something to be celebrated. Everything in the North is pitched within the binary framework of the two traditions, where people are expected to be either unionist or nationalist. As a James Connolly socialist, I firmly reject that narrative. While some may want to, we are not about sitting on the fence when faced with so-called divisive issues; we are about kicking down fences and challenging division, and that necessitates challenging partition. <BR /> <BR />Partition was a reactionary and undemocratic development that was used to thwart progressive and revolutionary change in Ireland. Look at the history of partition: it was undemocratically imposed on Ireland and backed by sectarianism and the widespread use of violence.”
“I will be supporting the amendment and not supporting the motion.”
“— allowed to engage in damaging homophobic practices. If the DUP were serious about combating antisemitism, it would have denounced Trump's embracing of the antisemitic far right.”