Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“<BR /> <BR />There was a bit of discussion, which I welcome, about Sunday trading hours, hence the amendment, which has received some support and some opposition in a way, although that was not expressly said. We need to defend important time off for workers, which was hard won by them. Weekend breaks were not gifted by nice employers or by the state but rather were hard won through trade union struggle and the gritted teeth of trade unionists. Workers should be able to do what they want with those hours on a Sunday. I am not religious, but workers should be able to go to religious events, family activities, arts events, cultural events or whatever on their day off. By not accepting my amendment, parties will effectively be saying that they are on the side of the employers rather than on that of the workers.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I welcome the debate and thank the Members who contributed to it. <BR /> <BR />Members raised important points on many issues, including empty buildings and the pedestrianisation — I had to say that slowly — of city and town centres. Different issues were raised about rates, some of which I agree with and others less so. We need to insert into the debate the idea of restructuring our rates system in a general sense in order to connect it to profits, income and wealth rather than to metrics and size, as is mainly the case. I ask how many major corporations in our city and town centres that are doing well financially, to put it mildly, pay adequate rates. I expect that very few do.”
“If we value a society where people have more free time to spend with their friends and family, and where they are happier and better rested and can participate fully in community life, we must resist regressive attempts to expand the working week. <BR /> <BR />I urge Members to support the amendment in my name, and I am happy to support the other amendments.”
“In reality, workers' hours have always been contested, certainly since the beginning of industrial capitalism. To that effect, somebody once said that the shortening of the working day is freedom's basic prerequisite. That rings absolutely true. Protecting and maximising free time is at the core of the ethos of the trade union movement and all those who want to live in a better, fairer society. Any suggestion of coercing retail and hospitality workers into working more hours on Sundays would be a completely regressive move, especially as more of us are actively fighting for a four-day working week.”
“Rather than there being the flexibility that the Member referred to, people already feel pressured by their employers to work on Sundays. In theory, workers have the right to opt out of Sunday working. In practice, however, many are pressurised by their management to take on Sunday shifts, and, in many cases, if they refuse, their working hours and pay are cut. That is unacceptable, but it is real behaviour. Employers are under no obligation to replace a worker's Sunday hours with a shift elsewhere in the week. Effectively, many retail and hospitality workers cannot afford to exercise their legal rights. <BR /> <BR />The strengthening of workers' rights should be at the heart of all discussions about the rejuvenation of our high streets and town centres.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the subject of the Member's intervention, when USDAW members in the North were asked what would make Belfast a more attractive city for leisure or family reasons or for visiting in general, extended retail opening hours came at the bottom of a very long list. The retail and hospitality workers of our town centres and high streets have their own lives. They are parents and carers, and many of them already work long, atypical hours and find it difficult to balance work and family life. To refer, again, to the Member's point, those workers already feel pressured to work for longer: extended opening hours on Sunday would only add more stress. <BR /> <BR />USDAW also found that 68% of members surveyed already come under pressure to work on Sundays.”
“I thank the Member for her point. I will come on to that. <BR /> <BR />Speaking more generally, extending Sunday trading hours makes zero economic sense. There is a litany of evidence and analysis that shows that deregulation would not only bring no economic benefits to our high street but would harm the viability of small businesses. Small retailers can already open for longer hours than other businesses can on Sundays, and many of those are independent local businesses that rely on the boost in trade on Sunday mornings in particular. Allowing larger stores to open for longer on Sundays would not mean people having more money to spend — trickle-down does not work — or more jobs being created. There would be no economic vibrancy or rejuvenation of our high streets as a result of extended trading hours.”
“We will oppose any attempt to extend Sunday trading hours, whether it is under the guise of high street and town centre rejuvenation or any other buzzword. <BR /> <BR />The extension of Sunday trading hours would benefit only big businesses and chains; it would harm workers and small businesses. Retail and hospitality workers constantly tell us that they do not want that change. Their union — the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers (USDAW) — surveyed its members in the North about the issue, and 92% of them — 92% — opposed the idea of extended Sunday opening hours. If hours were extended, workers in large shops would come under more pressure to work on Sundays, which would mean people having less time to spend with their families and in their communities. Extending Sunday trading hours also makes —.”
“People with disabilities and mobility issues should be placed at the centre of discussions about planning, so that everyone can move around our public spaces easily and safely, but they are usually an afterthought, at best. <BR /> <BR />The Alliance Party representatives on Belfast City Council have always, to my knowledge, pushed for an extension to Sunday trading hours, despite vocal opposition from workers, trade unions, independent retailers and small businesses. I say, politely, that they are out of touch on that issue. The fact that the motion was proposed by a party that refuses to drop the idea of extended Sunday trading hours should be a concern for all of us who care about workers, their families and our communities.”
“<BR /> <BR />Every day in our town and city centres, disabled people are forced to deal with poorly maintained pavements and unacceptable barriers and obstructions, including pavement parking. Those barriers, effectively, stop disabled people from carrying out their day-to-day tasks, but they also have a serious negative impact on people's mental and physical well-being, limiting opportunities for social interaction and independent living and access to employment. In the face of those social and economic barriers, no money has been allocated to the DFC access and inclusion grants. Those grants fund projects such as Changing Places and help to make sport, leisure, arts and heritage more accessible. We urgently need better investment in Changing Places and accessible transport solutions such as the Disability Action transport scheme.”
“My amendment focuses on making our towns and high streets more accessible to people with disabilities and mobility issues, and it pushes back against a deeply unpopular idea, continually floated by the party that tabled the motion, that shops should open for longer on Sundays. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to accessibility, any strategy to rejuvenate our high streets and town centres must prioritise accessible infrastructure for people with disabilities and mobility issues. Shockingly, research from Disability Action shows that nine out of 10 disabled people feel that public transport and buildings are inaccessible to them. Furthermore, nine out of 10 disabled people experience serious challenges with street accessibility in their local areas. Nine out of 10 disabled people experience challenges accessing high street shops.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. Under our current system, our city and town centres are carved up by private property, and property rights dominate all the claims to our shared spaces. However, if we are serious about recognising the importance of our city and town centres and our high streets as the social fabric of our communities, which they are, we need to acknowledge that property rights have, effectively, alienated us from our own public spaces. <BR /> <BR />Our towns and high streets belong to those who live and work there, and they should be shaped by the needs of communities and designed to promote social connection and inclusion.”
“Thank you, Minister. It has been reported that the Loyalist Community Council (LCC), which the Education Minister and you recently met, has raised opposition to Scoil na Seolta in east Belfast. Given the ongoing intimidation, attacks and whipping up of sectarianism against the school and those who use it, will you take the opportunity to condemn that hate and welcome that school in east Belfast?”
“Minister, for some time, mutualisation and privatisation have been wrongly touted as being the solutions to our very real water, infrastructure and housing problems. Will the change to the borrowing rules for capital investment that you announced mean that there will be extra public money to properly fix our water infrastructure and allow the Housing Executive to build homes properly at scale again?”
“It is a bit rich to attack workers who have every right to withdraw their labour and take strike action to defend access to justice for everyone. If criminal barristers are not being fairly remunerated for legal aid work or are experiencing delays, we will potentially lose them to more profitable fields of law. Minister, can you explain why the number of legal aid cases granted in 2023-24 is the lowest annual total over the past five years?”
“Do you have any concerns about industrial animal cruelty, which I raised?”
“<BR /> <BR />We also need to talk about the role of landlords, who often force people to get rid of pets or prevent them from having pets. People should be able to have pets, not only for the obvious health benefits but for the enjoyment that they bring to their lives. Landlords should not have a veto on that. Surely those landlords who force people to give up pets are, by extension, engaging in animal cruelty. <BR /> <BR />My final point is about the fact that the North is the only part of these islands — in the UK, at least — without a ban on hunting with dogs. I know that the Member for South Antrim John Blair is trying to rectify that, but it is a serious hole that needs to be legislated on if we are going to stop animal cruelty.”
“In 2022, chickens at Moy Park died in a particularly cruel way — slowly and of heat exhaustion — because of inadequate ventilation during a heatwave. If that is not textbook animal cruelty, what is? <BR /> <BR />In addition to treating animals with abject cruelty, Moy Park is a notorious polluter of the local environment that damages our soil quality and pollutes our water, constantly breaching legal limits for pollutants at Lough Neagh. Executive parties reward Moy Park for its impressive animal cruelty with industrial derating, which is likely to be worth millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds. On one level, parties bang the table about tougher sentencing, but, when it comes to Moy Park, it is a case of "Fill your boots". I predict that there will be no arrests of the senior management or chief executives of that organisation.”
“Moy Park was recently lauded for being the first company in the North to reach a turnover of £2 billion even though it cut its workforce by 7% in the process. For now, leave aside the fact that there has not been a statement from any Minister about Moy Park's profits, which really shows the power of capital to avoid ever being questioned or challenged. Moy Park has a serious problem with animal welfare, but nobody seems to want to talk about it. Video evidence of the treatment of chickens at Moy Park is disgusting and abominable. Chickens in the factory farm live in horrifying conditions in double-decker sheds. Birds are left unable to walk, they live with horrific injuries and they are deprived of water. That is bad enough, but people are also supposed to eat that stuff.”
“I support the motion, but I also want to draw attention to animal cruelty that happens on a deep societal level and is usually deemed acceptable or, even, lauded. The organisation of our society around the profit incentive has widened the rift between humans and nature to a point beyond all recognition. In particular, the widespread abuse of animals in factory farms is animal cruelty on an industrial scale.”
“I thank the Member for giving way so that I can ask her to clarify. Was there agreement or disagreement on the Committee to widen the proxy voting arrangements to have a system similar to the one that was in place during COVID? Does the Member's party agree with that?”
“It does not take into consideration Members who intend to travel in to vote on a debate, but life can change and weather patterns can change, and I am thinking in particular of Members from Derry or the north-west who may be unable to get down the Glenshane Pass but want to vote. Many people could be unintentionally disenfranchised by this too rigorous, restrictive system. <BR /> <BR />I support the changes proposed today but urge the Committee to consider extending them to a wider range of circumstances.”
“I appreciate the Chair's comments, but I have responded to the Committee to say that it should look at the wider proxy voting system, as the Chair may know, and I repeat that it is too restrictive. Ultimately, it should be up to MLAs to decide. If they are not in the Building and are deemed to be MIA, they can be voted out by the public, who, ultimately, decide those things. <BR /> <BR />I think that the current system is too restrictive for all sorts of reasons. There is full proxy voting in France, Luxembourg and New Zealand, and the sky has not fallen in. I was going to ask the Chair about the opposition to the changes, but she alluded to it already. <BR /> <BR />I also think that the deadline is too restrictive.”
“I have raised that with the Chair in a few previous debates, but I want the Committee to get on board with that. <BR /> <BR />To be honest, it probably would not be of massive benefit to me, being an MLA in Belfast, unless there were unforeseen circumstances. Proxy voting arrangements would probably benefit bigger parties and people outside Belfast in particular. I am happy to give way if the Chair wants, but some still believe that what happens in this place trumps all and that this is the sole, primary place for political discussions or decisions. However, there is obviously a lot more work taking place outside this Building, and, given the lack of legislation coming through, some would argue that more important work is happening in constituencies, with meetings and groups of individuals and so on.”
“I certainly do not oppose the changes, but I fear that this may be a missed opportunity. The announcement of changes to Standing Orders for paternity or bereavement issues is welcome, but, as the Chair said, there are gaps around child appointments, child sickness and other areas, which, I fear, is a missed opportunity. The proxy voting arrangements that are proposed are too restrictive. COVID showed many's a thing, such as how proxy voting arrangements could be altered and implemented. Certainly, from this end, there seemed to be no issue or problem with that process being in place. It seemed to run smoothly from this end. If there were issues outside or on the technical side, I would be happy to hear about those. However, from here, it seemed to work smoothly. I believe that we need to get back to that system.”
“Minister, it is concerning that there is no plan to rectify the fact that there are 1,600 nursing and midwifery vacancies. It is also concerning to hear nothing about the reversal of closed maternity units. I have heard reports of women giving birth at the sides of roads recently, and that is really dangerous and worrying stuff. What funding is attached to today's announcement, Minister?”
“Who is monitoring what goes through Aldergrove? I asked the Economy Minister a question about that, and his answer was that, effectively, nobody monitors it and it is not monitored by the Department. Are the First and the deputy First Minister monitoring what goes through Aldergrove? If it is found that weapons of war for Israel are going through that airport, who will do something about it?”
“After a year of genocide and normalisation of the abnormal — the killing of people on the basis of their nationality and the massacre of Palestinians on an industrial scale — we have witnessed a mass movement to defy the political consensus and the actions of Washington, London, Berlin and other states. <BR /> <BR />We have to ask questions and focus on the role played by the Governments on these islands in funding the war machine and, in particular, the use of airports. We know that US warplanes go through Shannon Airport, and I pay tribute to the anti-war activists who protested at Shannon a few weekends ago. Journalists from 'The Ditch' reported that weapons of war had gone from the US via Shannon in Ireland to arm the Israeli war machine under the watchful eye of the Southern Government. What is flown through Aldergrove airport?”
“A year into a brutal genocide that has killed at least 100,000 people, you think that you have witnessed everything. After seeing refugee camps blown to bits, hospitals and schools flattened and universities wiped out, you think that you have seen everything. Then, last week, we saw something horrific and brutal that really showcases what Israel and Zionism are all about at their core. We saw the incineration of Sha’ban al-Dalou — the burning alive of a man who was not yet 20 years old. Can you imagine the rightful and justified horror and outcry if that had been carried out in a hospital in Ireland, Europe, America or elsewhere? However, it is deemed to be acceptable and OK because it is another massacred Palestinian. To me and to millions and billions of people across the world, that is not normal, acceptable or right.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is nothing wrong with people who have a disability or additional needs, but there is a lot wrong with our society, especially in its attitudes towards people with a disability. I am happy to support the motion and the amendments.”
“That has an obvious, knock-on effect on the operation of the units, which cannot maintain a short-break service. In short, it is a broken system. It is unacceptable that, during a crisis where an emergency respite admission is required, families lack certainty and support. Where is the caring aspect of the NHS in this debate? <BR /> <BR />More generally, we need to move to a social model of disability, rather than our current model, which is solely medicalised. A social model places responsibility on society and the Government, rather than the individual, to remove barriers and promote equality and social justice. Under a social model of disability, disabled people and their carers are more likely to be treated with the dignity that they so rightly deserve but do not always get.”
“Carers face unprecedented pressures on their finances: 44% of working-age adults who are caring for 35 hours or more each week are living in poverty. All too often, the invaluable contributions of unpaid carers are not recognised. Unpaid carers experience their own physical and mental health issues, which are often exacerbated by the pressures of providing unpaid care. A lack of accessible and timely respite services only adds to those pressures. <BR /> <BR />Demand for access to short breaks and respite services for adults with learning disabilities and children and young people with disabilities has increased, as has been said. Some children and young people urgently need longer-term residential placements, and in our current, collapsing system, some children have been staying in overnight, short-break units for over 90 days.”
“Social care workers across our trusts and the community and voluntary sector provide respite services for thousands of adults and children, as well as their carers, each year. Despite their life-enhancing and transformative work, they are underpaid and undervalued. <BR /> <BR />Unpaid carers are the invisible backbone of our society. They keep our health and social care services running. Many balance their caring responsibilities with paid work and education. According to the most recent census, as we have heard, 222,000 people in the North provide some form of unpaid care. Women, obviously, are more likely to take on caring responsibilities than men. In the North, around 3,000 children under the age of 15 are carers, which is a startling statistic.”
“I am happy to support the motion and the two amendments. Social care workers — paid and unpaid — provide and benefit from respite services. Failure to invest in those services is directly and actively harming adults and children with learning difficulties, complex needs and challenging behaviours, as well as their families, as we have heard.”
“As other regions try to support making the move from fossil fuels to renewable energy, the Executive have not only failed to provide subsidies to encourage the transition but used public money to, effectively, subsidise fossil fuel boilers. Treasury has allocated hundreds of millions for renewable energy subsidies, but the Department has not been able to work out an effective way to spend it, resulting in a waste of £130 million. That is a colossal waste of public money, but it does not end there. A recent Audit Office report shows that only 26 out of 42 recommendations from the inquiry, which concluded four years ago, have been implemented. I have heard of things moving at a snail's pace in this place, but that really takes the biscuit. I will oppose the regulations.”
“Once again, we are dealing with the ongoing fallout of financial malfeasance on the part of a previous Executive and Executive parties. The regulations are an implicit admission that, after the RHI disaster, the Department potentially cut payments in many of the wrong places. The Department for the Economy balked at the suggestion that people would uninstall a working biomass boiler and turn back to fossil fuels, but that is exactly what happened in many cases, with hundreds of RHI boilers out of use. Last year, the 'Belfast Telegraph' reported that RHI boilers in good condition were being sold online for as little as £1. <BR /> <BR />Now, four years later, payments to boiler owners are, effectively, being trebled in recognition that subsidies here are far too low compared with those elsewhere on these islands.”
“I thank the Minister. I hope that the Loyalist Communities Council was not forewarned about his announcement and that it had no role in shaping it. <BR /> <BR />On raising the age of educational participation, what work has the Minister done to secure extra funding for schools and colleges, including education support workers, and to support implementing a living wage for apprentices, who are paid far too little?”
“The ongoing neglect and exploitation of the lough is just one example of the long-term neglect of the natural environment. In that context, the latest river basin management plan sitting on a shelf unfinished, inadequate and without any proposal for environmental objectives does not cut the mustard. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion, but, without an updated river basin management plan, the Lough Neagh action plan will not deliver on water quality. I take the opportunity to state that, on 3 November, a march for clean water has been organised in Belfast city centre in line with protesters who are doing the same in England. I encourage anybody who is watching or taking part in the debate to attend that demonstration.”
“Previously, DAERA adopted one river basin management plan for each river basin district, but it now proposes to produce a single river basin management plan covering all districts. I do not know how that is consistent with the locally specific targets and areas that are set out in the plan. <BR /> <BR />The Office for Environmental Protection published a review of drivers and issues affecting biodiversity in the North. It was no surprise to me to find that two of the main pressures are land-use change and pollution, which are obviously directly connected to agricultural intensification. Excess nutrients in the form of fertilisers and animal waste are driving biodiversity loss. In that regard, Lough Neagh is the canary in the coal mine.”
“I do not know what the noise was, but, thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I share the concern that the latest river basin management plan is nearly three years overdue. In any arena, that is bad practice, but, given the crisis in Lough Neagh and sewage being dumped in waterways, it is reckless, although we have to remember that, as the previous Member to speak indicated, the Office for Environmental Protection has criticised the draft, asking whether it complies with DAERA's legal obligations. <BR /> <BR />The river basin management plan sets legally binding, locally specific environmental objectives that underpin water regulation. Maybe that is why it was shelved.”
“Often, they are told that their landlords are selling up, only to see their property let re-advertised online with a dramatic hike in rent. That is completely unacceptable. Sometimes, tenants are given no reason —.”
“Some Members made reference to expanding the Housing Executive's borrowing powers: we have to be cautious. Any attempt to allow the Housing Executive to access borrowing that does not score on public expenditure must not involve the reclassification of the Housing Executive. That would be privatisation by a fancy name and is not the solution for increasing supply. Private finance and subsidies for private developers have no place in tackling our housing crisis. They caused and exacerbated the situation in the first place. <BR /> <BR />Another solution to the housing crisis is incredibly simple and effective: a ban on no-fault evictions. Every day, across the North, private tenants are issued with eviction notices.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I agree, generally, but we would have to make sure that the planning process was not overhauled in order to have unsuitable homes built in a quicker timescale. We would have to make sure that the homes were built properly. The other points that the Member raised are well made, and I generally support what he has suggested. The obvious point is that, for the building of some homes, there are no waste water infrastructure problems. I note that there are no problems for new student accommodation and hotels. I add that point to the debate again. <BR /> <BR />The call for any additional Barnett consequential funding emanating from new housebuilding in England and Wales to be ring-fenced for here is welcome.”
“In order to make proper headway in tackling the housing crisis, we need to set more ambitious targets that reflect how many people are in desperate need of a secure and affordable home. There are over 47,000 people on our social housing waiting list as we speak, and 4,000 of them are in my West Belfast constituency. The most recent Budget allocation of funding for new social homes was for 600 this year initially, but that number is now 400, compared with a target of 2,000 homes. It is time for the Executive to stop cutting DFC's capital budget, put their money where their mouth is and start investing properly in social housing.”
“Many people who would have been entitled to a secure, affordable Housing Executive home a generation ago find themselves paying an average of £1,000 a month for a private rented property in Belfast. That is completely unaffordable and out of control. It also points to the fact that we need rent controls. The issue partially accounts for the difficulties experienced by first-time buyers: how can you scrape together a deposit to buy your own home when the cost of renting means that you cannot save at the same time? <BR /> <BR />One way through the crisis is to build more social homes. The draft housing supply strategy aims to deliver 100,000 new homes by 2037, but I note that the motion suggests a target of:”
“Given our current waste water capacity constraints, bringing vacant properties into use as social homes would be a relatively quick and efficient way to expand our supply of affordable homes. I note, however, that the waste water capacity issues do not apply to student accommodation and hotels, which, it seems, go up every day or every month. <BR /> <BR />We urgently need to make up ground for the time lost and targets missed. Failure to deliver on previous social housing targets is beyond regrettable; it is absolutely shameful. Failure to meet social housing targets and the gradual reduction of targets have directly contributed to rising homelessness. The inadequate supply of social housing has also forced people into the under-regulated and unaffordable private rented sector.”
“I am glad that the Minister is on the same page as me and, maybe, others in the Chamber, and I look forward to further engagement with him and his officials on how to bring vacant properties into public ownership.”
“That equates to over 88,000 people, which is greater than the population of Derry, and 75% of the people on that waiting list are in housing stress. Bringing vacant properties back into use as social homes as quickly as possible will lift tens of thousands of people out of homelessness and housing stress. In the Chamber, in May, the Communities Minister said:”
“Declaring a housing emergency is an important step in recognising the scale and seriousness of our housing crisis. I am happy to support the motion to that effect and because of the issue's impact on human health and well-being. It is also important, however, that we move from recognising the problem and understanding the systemic root causes to there being meaningful action and investment. The solutions proposed in the motion would help lessen some of the worst impacts of the housing crisis. I hope to introduce a private Member's Bill on housing, and I hope that Members opposite and across the House will support it in the period ahead. <BR /> <BR />There are almost 21,000 vacant homes across the North. At the same time, over 47,000 households are waiting for social housing.”
“Does the Member agree that it is not even the principle of meeting those groups, which is one thing, but that it is the elevation of them above other groups, which, as you and I mentioned, have not met those Ministers?”