Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“This sounds positive, Minister, but we need to look at the detail, obviously. People have expressed to me the need for legislation before the recess for all sorts of reasons. Minister, I am disappointed that you have refused to urge people who are in different dwellings but similar circumstances to those in Victoria Square apartments to come forward. That would help you and your Department to get a holistic view of the problem and get robust legislation in place. In light of your announcement today, will you reconsider looking at that?”
“We have seen it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and across the globe, so it is up to ordinary people to continue to press home the demands that can bring about peace: boycotts, divestments and sanctions (BDS) against Israel; the British and Irish Governments to expel the Israeli ambassadors; countries to stop arming Israel; and the US military to get out of Aldergrove and Shannon. The Stormont Executive must now urgently call for an immediate ceasefire.”
“The G7, drawn from the so-called leaders of the democratic world, was quick to defend Israel and talked of guaranteeing peace in the region. As those countries' sophisticated defence systems mopped up Iran's missiles, Israel continued to bombard Gaza overnight with the very weapons that they provide. <BR /> <BR />Their hypocrisy and Israel's unchallenged barbarity make a mockery of the supposed rules-based international order. Those people will do anything to protect their interests.”
“In that time, Israel has also bombed Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank, Iran and Yemen, with the complete backing of Western imperialists in the US, Britain and elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />I have my own view of the Iranian state. I have stood with my Iranian sisters and brothers here in Belfast under the slogan "Woman, Life, Freedom", but its actions over the weekend were in retaliation to Israel's bombing of the Iranian consulate in Damascus. <BR /> <BR />What we are seeing started with Israel's genocide in Gaza and must end with a ceasefire in Gaza. Israel is a rogue state that has risked a wider regional war with every reckless action that it has taken. Israel and those who continue to support and arm it, including the US and Britain, now have to be responsible for de-escalating the violence.”
“Over the weekend, Iran fired some 300 missiles at Israel, and the world watched with bated breath as we awaited the outcome of what could have been a wider confrontation in the Middle East. Today, I call, loudly and clearly, for a de-escalation of violence but also for people to reflect on what has brought us to that point. <BR /> <BR />For six months now, Israel has been committing genocide in Gaza, the horror of which would have been unimaginable before. Israel has destroyed hospitals, deliberately murdered children, taken thousands of hostages and systematically denied people food, water and medical aid. Israel has killed over 33,000 Palestinians and committed the most heinous war crimes.”
“The Member knows that that is not who pays corporation tax; it is large organisations. Corporate profits have increased in the past two years, so there is plenty of money to be paid up. If you tackle corporate taxes, increase them, tax corporate profits and put them into public services, there will be plenty of money to fund our services. I note that the party opposite is opposed to that and wants, once again, to give tax breaks to corporations. We will not be endorsing this farce or this farcical economic strategy today. Workers and working-class communities deserve a lot better, and I do not think that we should accept that.”
“The Member knows that I am not a Minister. Her party is in the Executive. The Member will know, if she listens to my speeches or to my comments in the Finance Committee, that I have repeatedly talked about the bulging corporate profits in the North. I believe that the Alliance Party still wants to cut corporation tax in the North. You do not? You have changed your position. OK, that is positive. We need to make those corporations pay more, but I have not heard your party talk about raising corporation tax. I am talking about your party clamouring for those organisations to pay more in corporate wealth taxes. If you are for doing that, I support you, and I am glad to see that you have changed position, but you are still for cutting corporation tax — you can clarify or challenge that if you want — or maintaining a corporation tax cut.”
“Think of the hypocrisy of bemoaning Tory cuts that your colleagues have agreed to endorse. How can you stand here with a straight face and talk about hospital waiting lists, educational underachievement, poverty and poor pay when you are foisting those very things on people and making them worse? If you truly believe that the money provided by the Tories is not enough, at what point do you stand up to them? Will you stick to the spending set out by the Secretary of State or will you invest in our health service, schools, housing or workers' pay — the future of our people? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that you oppose Tory cuts while explicitly saying, as the Finance Minister has, in black and white, that you will adhere to their budget and their economic agenda.”
“What are those who bemoan Tory cuts saying when they agree to do their dirty work for them? What are they saying to the workers whose pay awards are outstanding? It was said earlier that pay awards were gratefully received by public-sector workers. First, it must be said that most of those workers were given a real-terms pay cut of about 6%. Secondly, we know that further education workers, transport workers, junior doctors and others are still in dispute and waiting for a pay rise. They will be due a further pay rise when all is said and done from today. <BR /> <BR />It does not take much to scratch the surface and see the Executive's regressive economic agenda. I say this to MLAs who will speak tomorrow of the need to fund this or that programme or service: think hard about what you are signing up to today.”
“There is talk about Tory austerity, but that is a commitment from Ministers, once again, to implement it. The Finance Minister said that she would work to ensure:”
“Absurd as it is, we are not just retroactively approving the spending of money already spent, and the Finance Minister is not asking us to simply let Departments keep spending or avail themselves of the theoretical headroom that some Members alluded to. She is asking us to hamstring Departments at the behest of the Secretary of State and to sign up to a fresh round of cuts that will decimate our health service, schools and communities across the board when the time comes. <BR /> <BR />The motion refers to information that was provided to the Finance Committee on 20 March. Let me read something from that. The Finance Minister said:”
“The Finance Minister is today effectively asking us to endorse a new round of Tory-mandated austerity. Once again, the Executive are allowing themselves to be constrained and directed by a Government who are intent on destroying our public services and imposing a fresh round of pay cuts on public-sector workers. When a Budget Bill was rammed through the Assembly some weeks ago in the absence of spring Supplementary Estimates, my party warned that the Government were pulling the wool over people's eyes. We warned that the lack of scrutiny would suit the Executive's nefarious short-term agenda but have wide-ranging and harmful implications for people across the North.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Minister, you will be aware from the Horizon scandal that that company has destroyed people's lives across these islands and driven some to suicide. We have to ask serious questions about Fujitsu and companies like it. The scandal has been known about for many years. I suggest that your Department and officials need to take action. Fujitsu has £775 million of contracts in total. It has destroyed people's lives but has been handsomely paid by Departments. That is completely unacceptable.”
“Not only does that let the Government off the hook but it is enabled by Governments across these islands who want to distract from their own failures. Racism is not innate to working-class communities, however. It is a top-down ideology that is peddled by Governments who want to divide us. The Tories, like Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, want us to focus on each other rather than on their blatant attacks on our communities, and we need to fight back against racism and condemn it everywhere that it appears.”
“In Belfast, we have seen migrants burnt out of their areas, racist signs erected by loyalist paramilitaries and Nazi flags erected outside a mosque in my constituency. Over the weekend, we saw the despicable racist graffiti that was sprayed on the home of Takura Makoni, and I take the opportunity once again to extend my solidarity to him and his family. <BR /> <BR />Those events are not representative of the majority here. They are not carried out in our name, and shame on those who carry out such attacks. They are the work of a tiny minority of racists who want to scapegoat minorities for the social ills that working-class communities face, including poverty, the housing crisis and a lack of healthcare provision.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I extend my condolences to the family and friends of Josip Štrok, a 31-year-old Croatian man who was brutally murdered by racist thugs in Clondalkin in Dublin a few days ago. I also extend my thoughts and solidarity to David Druzinac, who was beaten unconscious by the same gang. That tragic attack is what happens when the far right is allowed to spread hate about migrants, refugees and asylum seekers. It is what happens when a group of liars are emboldened to spin false narratives about anyone who does not fit their warped Irish archetype. <BR /> <BR />Of course, none of that started with the murder of Josip Štrok. For a number of years now, North and South, we have seen racist agitators burn buildings, intimidate people out of their homes and organise openly racist demonstrations on our streets.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. The Member's colleague said that the motion does not mention mutualisation, but it does. How does his party respond to the Minister's point about mutualisation leading directly to water charges? How does his party square that, given the motion? The Alliance Party's manifesto in 2022 stated, on page 80, that it is for mutualisation, aka water charges.”
“We should have that discussion and talk about the fact that in the North, Belfast has more millionaires per capita than anywhere outside London or oil-rich Aberdeen, but you do not hear much about that in this Building. We should talk about the fact that corporations are raking in billions at our expense, but nobody wants to talk about that. Also, there has been renewed talk about devolving corporation tax. I have heard no good argument against devolving corporation tax to raise it and make the rich pay their way to fund public services, including NI Water. <BR /> <BR />We will not support the quiet privatisation of our water infrastructure, we certainly will not vote to impose water charges on working-class people, and we will not be supporting the motion.”
“The Member supports mutualisation, and the last time I checked, I think his party is for water charges, too, unless it has changed that position. If it has changed it, I welcome that, and I will certainly check its most recent manifesto. <BR /> <BR />There is probably a kernel of truth about 19,000 homes being prevented from being built. However, where that theory becomes unstuck is that the Executive have no intention or plan to build 19,000 homes in the first instance. What we really need to see here is Government and state investment in our water infrastructure and public homes being built. Consecutive Executives have refused to do either, and we should not let today's motion distract us from that. <BR /> <BR />If this Executive want to talk about revenue-raising, we are for that discussion.”
“Bring it in-house and allow it to be properly funded and run as a public body. <BR /> <BR />We have seen all the headlines stating that our water infrastructure will prevent the building of 19,000 homes, and there is probably a kernel of truth in that.”
“Welsh Water continues to illegally discharge sewage, in breach of dozens of permits, due to the state of its water infrastructure. People are not only paying again for their water but they are still crying out for investment in their water infrastructure. Arguing for water charges, mutualisation or privatisation on the basis that Britain has them is the argument for a race to the bottom. <BR /> <BR />The motion — the mutualisation of water services more generally — is a red herring. It is meant to distract from the fact that Stormont has failed to invest properly in NI Water. I agree that the Government need to embark on an ambitious plan to overhaul our water infrastructure for the benefit of all, but these plans are not very ambitious in and of themselves. Instead, we need to bring NI Water back into public ownership.”
“I appreciate that, but it mentions mutualisation and funding models to be looked at. Mutualisation is privatisation. Really, it is about squeezing more from people who pay for their water through rates and who should not have to pay twice. It will make hard-up communities pay to attract investment from private financers — privatisation or, as some call it, mutualisation — whose only interest is to turn a profit and not in our water infrastructure. There is no denying the dysfunction of NI Water, but to point to mutualisation as a solution is no solution at all. <BR /> <BR />Wales was mentioned. Welsh Water has been mutualised, and people in Wales pay amongst the highest water bills on these islands: around £500 a year.”
“However, what we see today is a cynical attempt to use the real crisis faced by NI Water to privatise it and, potentially, introduce water charges. Let us call a spade a spade: that is exactly what the UUP motion and those who support it are asking for. You can call it what you want, but mutualisation is exactly privatisation. It is wrapped up differently and repackaged, but it is privatisation.”
“The decision to turn NI Water into a company has been an unmitigated disaster. People warned that it would allow Stormont to underfund the service and open the door to privatisation and, potentially, water charges. Years of savage cuts to NI Water are wreaking havoc at every turn. The parties that imposed those cuts are telling us that ordinary people need to pay for their mistakes. In the past decade alone, NI Water has dumped some 70 tonnes of sewage into our waterways, which is an astounding figure. <BR /> <BR />Poor water infrastructure is preventing homes from being built, as we have heard, impacting on our drinking water and leaking sewage into vital natural resources, like Lough Neagh. Most Members, obviously, agree on those points.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I agree with her point about bigotry coming from the same well, but is she also concerned, as I am, that, according to the last stats that I saw, racism is outstripping sectarianism and seems to be even more problematic than some people might believe?”
“I stress to the Minister that the process needs to be sped up. Those workers have been waiting for six years for the funding to be released. It is completely unacceptable that Ministers, including the Education Minister, got a wage increase and are on £90K a year, when those workers — bus drivers, classroom assistants, bus escorts, catering staff and other staff, some of whom do life-saving procedures — are again told, "You have to wait". I urge the Minister to make sure that the money is released urgently.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. St Gerard's is a great school. I declare an interest: I have a family member who works there. The parents whose kids go to St Gerard's cannot speak highly enough of it, but it is criminally under-resourced and bursting at the seams. People are literally queuing to send their children there. It is welcome news about the extra post, Minister, but will you give a precise date for when there will be increased funding so that St Gerard's can do what it does best?”
“We need to keep marching to expel the Israeli ambassador —”
“We have heard about pregnant women going through C-sections without any anaesthetic but not a word from the Stormont Executive. People have been found bulldozed and buried in the rubble of hospitals but there has not been a single word about it. <BR /> <BR />Palestine is the litmus test of our humanity and the ruling parties here and across the world are failing that test every single day. Therefore, it is up to ordinary people to challenge them. People need to keep pushing for boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel, not just to punish the genocide but to help dismantle the savage occupation and apartheid system that has been imposed on the Palestinian people for 75-plus years. <BR /> <BR />We must redouble our efforts to turn Ireland into an anti-apartheid island, North and South.”
“Not only have the British and US Governments continued to fund the slaughter and arm the Israeli state to the hilt, they have joined in on the bombing of places such as Yemen. Despite the horror that we have seen, the liberal media and western Governments, supposed defenders of democracy, continue to gobble up and spew out Israel's base propaganda. The state, which some months ago denied that it would ever attack a hospital, has launched 48 attacks on healthcare facilities in the Gaza Strip, including the now decimated Al-Shifa hospital. <BR /> <BR />What kind of Executive cannot collectively condemn the barbarity that we have seen? We have seen babies lying dead and decomposing on beds in hospitals that people were forced to flee to due to Israeli bombs and bullets, with not a word from this Executive.”
“Yet this Executive, a supposed bastion of peace and peacebuilding, have not uttered a single word about the evil that is unfolding. Where is the Executive's call for a ceasefire? Where are the joint statements of condemnation? This Government, which, patronisingly, hold up our flawed peace process as an example to the world, cannot even bring themselves to criticise a raft of bloodthirsty war criminals who are committing a genocide in daylight. Northern exceptionalism should not be an excuse to ignore a genocide. If the DUP and Sinn Féin can present a united front to schmooze with genocide backer Joe Biden, then they should, surely, be able to criticise an apartheid state that has massacred people with impunity. <BR /> <BR />In the past six months alone, Israel has bombed Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank, Iran and Yemen.”
“What kind of horror will it take for the Executive to condemn Israel's genocidal actions in Gaza? Over 33,000 people are dead, with eight being killed every hour. Generations upon generations of Palestinian families have been wiped out, and their memories, cultures, hopes and dreams are gone. Israel is systematically starving some two million Palestinians, forcing them to live on 245 calories per day. We have seen children deliberately targeted by Israeli snipers and aid workers and medical workers murdered, all without accountability. The list goes on and on.”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for his work on that campaign. Will he agree that we cannot just use the criteria of economics to count the importance of investing in universal free school meals? That is sometimes the approach that is taken by the Department and even officials.”
“Parties here, who have failed to alleviated poverty for more than a decade, know what is required to stop people going hungry but refuse to do what is required, because doing that would mean challenging the right-wing economic logic that underpins the actions of the Executive and their regressive counterparts in the Tory Administration. Parents across the North struggle to put food on the table. Universal free school meals is an effective and invaluable way to start addressing that problem. I ask all Executive parties to seriously consider that as a mechanism for feeding the hungry and addressing the poverty that Stormont has wrought, or are they too afraid of upsetting the Tory bean counters?”
“That is what life looks like for the family of four who have had their meagre benefits slashed and a safety net removed by parties here. <BR /> <BR />Universal free school meals is not an outlandish proposition. It has been a long-term demand of trade unions like Unison and others, which represent thousands of working-class adults and children across these islands. The Welsh Government plan to offer free school meals for all pupils. Stormont needs to urgently follow suit. The failure to do so is not about a lack of foresight.”
“However, is it not a shame that those schools are being forced to absorb costs that should be covered by the state and the Department of Education? <BR /> <BR />I reiterate my support for today's motion, but it lacks a bit of ambition. It is a missed opportunity to call for universal free school meals. That would not only lift people out of poverty but give pupils the best chance at a decent education. I have no doubt that most MLAs and Ministers here, with their big salaries, have no idea what it is like to truly go hungry and no idea what it is like to try to think, learn or function on an empty stomach. That is the reality facing countless working-class people here every day. That is the reality for workers who have to skip meals to feed their kids while their pay is cut directly by the Executive.”
“I agree with anti-poverty campaigners that it is time for welfare reforms like the two-child tax limit to be scrapped. <BR /> <BR />If the Executive are truly committed to lifting people out of poverty, they need to give people more than empty words. It goes without saying that I endorse today's motion and amendment, but it is important to stress that the number of families who might receive holiday hunger payments pales in comparison with the number of children and families who go hungry daily. Today's debate has already been outstripped by the hardship and poverty facing our communities. Members will know that some schools — youth organisations were also mentioned — already offer free meals to all pupils. I commend those schools for taking practical steps to alleviate child hunger — fair play to them.”
“Conservative estimates tell us, as Members have mentioned, that one in five children here lives in poverty. In working-class areas, which have been decimated by years of austerity, the figure is even higher. There is no way to explain that figure without reference to low wages, service cuts, the deepening housing crisis and the devastating welfare reforms, like the two-child tax limit, that were implemented by parties in this Building. <BR /> <BR />Just recently, I saw a shocking report by the End Child Poverty Coalition that said that one in 10 children here lives in a household impacted by the two-child tax limit. That means that at least one in 10 children here has been plunged into poverty by the policies and actions of the DUP, Sinn Féin, Alliance and others.”
“Is there anything more abhorrent than the fact that at least 100,000 children have gone hungry, thanks to the action and inaction of government parties here? Can you imagine the hardship and suffering faced by 100,000 children with empty bellies and their families? Despite the motion before us today, do the new Executive care? If they do, what will they do about it? When the cut to holiday hunger payments was implemented and the DUP persisted with its reckless boycott, we had at least a partial answer to that question. However, that still does not account for the punishing and anti-working-class policies that have been pursued by parties here when Stormont was functioning and up and running. <BR /> <BR />One hundred thousand kids are just the tip of the iceberg.”
“It is important that he is accurate when reporting what other people have said, including myself. I ask you to ask him to correct Hansard.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Minister incorrectly stated that I said that our education system was built on sectarianism. I ask that he clarify the record of what I said. I said:”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. The Minister said that he supports all sectors and parental choice. Will he commit to meeting principals and parents who are trying to get children into naonraí and naíscoileanna, which are Irish-medium preschools and nurseries? Parents are struggling to get them into those schools, and a small sum from the Minister's Department could get them into their desired local school. Will he commit to meeting those individuals?”
“<BR /> <BR />I reiterate that I support the motion, but, like many others, I will wait to see what the Executive and the Education Minister do to advance the demands of non-denominational school communities and all those who have been let down by their policies.”
“I declare an interest: I am a parent who is struggling to get his son into a pre-nursery, and I would appreciate some support or intervention from the Minister on that. <BR /> <BR />Despite a statutory duty on the Assembly to grow integrated and Irish-medium education, we have the absurd situation where kids cannot get into either, as I just mentioned. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that regressive political attitudes have hindered the growth of the integrated and Irish-medium sectors, and, so far, I have seen nothing from Ministers to change my mind. Many will talk about the need to grow these sectors, but actions speak louder than words. They talk of reconciliation but are unable to reconcile their words with their actions, which have seen integrated and Irish-medium education systematically starved of funding for far too long.”
“Stormont has actively stymied the growth and development of young people, whose schools have been decimated during two decades of Stormont-backed austerity. <BR /> <BR />As we have this discussion, it would be remiss of me not to mention the chronic underfunding of the Irish-medium sector, where over 60% of children are educated in temporary accommodation, huts and leaky-roofed old school buildings. Like integrated education, the Irish-medium sector provides for children from all backgrounds and of all religions and none. It is often not recognised that children from all backgrounds are educated and raised through the medium of Irish. I give the Minister notice: scores of parents are struggling to get their children into pre-nursery Irish schools in west Belfast and beyond.”
“I support the motion, not least because it is long past time that we moved towards a secular education system. In a state that was built on sectarianism and communal division, it is crucial that children live and are educated together, despite the divisions that are foisted on them by those in power. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to lay down a marker that we will not accept this latest Tory cut to our education system. The British Government need to cough up the £150 million and give it to the integrated schools, as was promised. Integrated education has been drastically underfunded for too long, not just by Westminster but by successive Stormont Administrations. In our view, the economic policies of these institutions have been the biggest barrier to education, integrated or otherwise.”
“Those and other striking workers are best placed not only to win a proper pay rise but to shift the narrative about the funding of our public services. While they attack working-class people, the Executive have refused to lift a finger to challenge the wealthy. It is time to make the rich pay their way.”
“They have once again accepted Tory austerity as the price of political power and are forcing the burden of revenue raising on hard-up households — struggling people who have had their rates raised year on year. <BR /> <BR />Nobody will deny that our public services are in urgent need of funding, but that could be easily addressed through progressive taxation that sees the wealthiest pay their fair share. It is a false proposition that rates hikes are the only way to fund public services. We need a new rates system that is based on income and profits. That, fundamentally, should be part of the conversation. <BR /> <BR />I heard a few days ago that public transport workers had overwhelmingly rejected the pitiful offer that the Executive foisted upon them.”
“Rents and mortgages are up, the price of the weekly shop is up and energy prices are still up. Wages are down in real terms and have been actively cut by the Executive parties. It does not take an economist to work out the impact of that on working-class people, whatever graph you want to use. Instead of doing something about it, Sinn Féin, the DUP and Alliance are once again punishing communities at the behest of the Tories and playing their game. <BR /> <BR />Of course, they have already told us and will continue to tell us that tough decisions have to be made when you are in government: I argue that they are taking the easy way out. The Executive think that it is easier to squeeze ordinary people and working-class families than to stand up to the Tories and their rich allies.”
“Today, those same parties are lining up to hike people's bills and force them into further poverty and further difficulty. We have heard all the excuses before. <BR /> <BR />Those who do the Tories' bidding — the bean counters — will have calculated this rates hike to the last penny. They will tell people that the average rates increase will be only so many pounds and pennies more every week or every year. They refuse to say that that is on top of the rates increases last year and the year before that, the year before that and the year before that. You get the picture: you see where we are going. <BR /> <BR />The Tory Secretary of State hiked the regional rate by 6% last year alone. On Belfast council, the parties that also sit in this Chamber hiked domestic rates by 8%.”