Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
The complete record
Every one of 4,137 lines we hold for Gerry Carroll, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 21 of 83.
“When buildings are blown up in Kyiv and elsewhere in Ukraine, we, rightly, hear about it on the news, but, when it is Palestinian homes, we rarely hear about it, because Palestinians have been dehumanised so much for so long. Imagine 50 Divis towers, 50 New Lodge blocks of flats or 50 buildings like Belfast City Hospital being wiped out and destroyed. That is what the Israeli occupation army does. It orders people to leave, then it blows them and their homes to smithereens. We are told that it has the most sophisticated weaponry in the world, but it is used to blow people to bits. <BR /> <BR />While the British, American and most Western Governments continue to support that barbarism, people are taking matters into their own hands.”
“<BR /> <BR />If you think about it, you see it is completely disgusting that Israel still denies access to food in Gaza, when truckloads are waiting to get in. The fact that Israel — nobody else — has killed at least 2,000 people in Gaza when they were queuing for food is completely barbaric. Imagine what the British Government would do if any other state in the Middle East or the world did that. They would sharpen their knives, turn on the tanks and get ready for war, but, because it is Israel, it is business as usual, and the military and political support continues to flow in, without even thinking twice about it. <BR /> <BR />In recent weeks, 50 high-rise blocks of flats have been destroyed by Israel. Those 50 blocks of flats were the homes of Palestinians.”
“Good, thank you. Just checking. <BR /> <BR />I agree that the protest yesterday was poignant and that we can do more. I will come on to that, but I thank the Member for his intervention. <BR /> <BR />The Mothers Against Genocide activists handed a letter to some politicians, including the Member opposite and others. I will mention some of the demands that they call for in their letter. They advocate a ceasefire and recognition of the independent state of Palestine. They recognise the need for an "ethical procurement policy", which would include ending rate relief for companies that are complicit in apartheid and genocide, and the need to let aid in. They had other demands as well, and I support all the demands that are outlined in the letter. I urge other parties to support them too.”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. Do I get an extra minute?”
“It is as clear as day that it is Israel and that it always has been. I commend all the activists who came outside the Building in their droves yesterday to keep the fight going for Palestine. I commend Mothers Against Genocide for organising yesterday's event and all the groups that have not let up in the past two years but have kept standing up for Palestine.”
“I am in favour of the motion, and I thank the Members opposite for tabling it. Unfortunately, we are approaching two years of Israel committing genocide, despite people trying to say otherwise. It is a genocide in living colour, recorded and documented across social media and some mainstream outlets. You would have thought that, had you asked people 10, 50 or 80 years ago whether a genocide would be allowed to be committed in public view for everyone across the world to see, they would have said no and denied it. Unfortunately, our sick political and economic system allows it to be so. <BR /> <BR />Despite the attempts to repeat lies when the violence and brutality started, which was attempted by some in this debate as well, most people across the world know what is right and wrong. They know who the aggressor is.”
“Minister, I will stand with you and everybody for Palestine. Saying it is a party dig is a bit of an insulting reply. It was a question about whether your Department had carried out an audit of whether Israeli war bonds go through the North. Yes or no?”
“The scheme is obviously a good idea, and I support its general aims, but, Minister, I am concerned about people who come forward. They will get their certificate, but they may be further traumatised, and there is a lack of support out there. I note that the Belfast Trust has only two bereavement midwives and only one family liaison nurse. The last thing that anybody wants is for people to come forward and be further traumatised by the lack of support. Have you had any conversations with the Health Minister about increasing services so that people are not traumatised if they come forward to seek a baby loss certificate?”
“Maybe not, but the drive and the motivation behind their points and those of their Minister is about cutting costs and scaling back. I trust the experts, education workers and families rather than any party that tries to scale back on the basis of those points. <BR /> <BR />I join others in welcoming the Member for North Antrim to the Chamber. I might well be one of the people who blocked him on Twitter. It was probably warranted and required, but, hopefully, if I extend that nice welcome to him, he will support my amendment.”
“It is worth reminding the Member for North Down that it is a political issue and, of course, a political Chamber, not some apolitical chamber for a bit of craic. Members from his party talked about how classroom assistants may not be the best-case scenario or needed in every situation.”
“That is a crucial point that the Minister fails to grasp. It touches on the heartbreaking example that Danny Baker gave about twins in West Belfast. <BR /> <BR />We have plenty of plans, strategies and roadmaps — we are roadmapped up to the ears — but there is little by way of action. The message from the experts by experience is resounding. We need to reverse the damage that was done by a decade of chronic underfunding. We need systemic reform, and that does not mean fewer classroom assistants. The Minister should focus his energies on that instead of trying to poke trans and non-binary pupils and people in the eye by removing guidance. He talked about having a political focus and about distractions; I think he is quite distracted by trans people and those who do not fit his narrow view of the world. <BR /> <BR />I will move on.”
“Most classroom assistants earn just above that, despite the increase that they received. There is plenty of money for who and what the Executive consider to be important. <BR /> <BR />Refusing to invest in SEN provision is a political and moral failure. Empty words and consultations, in which the responses of the workforce and families are ignored, mean absolutely nothing. I urge the Minister to listen to the experience of pupils, their families, teachers and classroom assistants. Research from SEN Reform NI and Caleb's Cause found that just 47% of parents who were surveyed received their child's statement within the legal time frame. That is totally unacceptable. Some 77% said that their child with SEN did not have equal opportunities in the education system compared with their peers without special educational needs.”
“I am still unclear as to why it is not compatible with my amendment. <BR /> <BR />If classroom assistants were fairly paid and their working conditions were safer and more sustainable, every child could have the support that they need. If the Executive were properly to invest in education rather than firefighting, we might avoid the same old crisis that we have witnessed year after year. People simply do not buy the excuse that there is not enough money to repair the schools that are crumbling around us or to pay teachers, classroom assistants, cleaners, caterers and transport workers a decent wage. Contrast that with the fact that the head of the Civil Service recently had her pay and pension hiked with no performance review. Today, the news broke that she is set to get a further £16,000 pay increase.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank Members for their contributions. As we heard in the debate, one in five pupils has special educational needs. In the past decade, the number of children with a statement of SEN has increased by 85%, but, unfortunately, the funding has not increased to match that need. That is the crucial point. The lack of planning and investment in our education system is failing children, families, communities and, crucially, education workers. The Minister tried to do a lot of deflection. He needs to take responsibility and act on those issues. <BR /> <BR />I support Mr Gaston's amendment, as I said at the start of the debate. It recognises the important and undervalued work of classroom assistants. It calls for more-secure employment contracts, fair pay and better terms and conditions.”
“No, definitely not. <BR /> <BR />The Minister needs to clarify his plans for classroom assistants. To go back to the previous comment, if he has real, existing evidence or research to justify reducing or cutting one-to-one support for people who already receive it, he needs to provide that to the House, to the Education Committee and to other Members. To my knowledge, however, he has not yet done so. <BR /> <BR />I encourage Members to support my amendment, but, if they do not, I appeal to the Minister to address the points contained in it.”
“Do you want me to give way? Do you want to speak? Go ahead.”
“I gave way to you: give me a wee bit of respect, Mr Brooks. The onus is on your party colleague, the Minister, to provide evidence. He is claiming that one-to-one support needs to be restricted, so he needs to provide that evidence. You need to speak to your party colleague and ask him to provide that to the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />If the Member undervalues or does not respect, understand or appreciate the role played by classroom assistants, I advise him to go to schools that work with and support children with special educational needs. You are trying to downplay the importance of their work, but it is on you to speak for yourself and defend that.”
“It absolutely is, if you speak to people who need one-to-one support or if you speak to classroom assistants and parents.”
“It is true that not every child needs that kind of support, but families of SEN pupils and trade unions saw that as a warning shot, laying the groundwork for reducing numbers of classroom assistants. Perhaps that is where the Minister wants to get to, but it is for him to clarify whether he will go there. <BR /> <BR />No matter how much the Minister dresses up the plans as giving schools greater flexibility or listening to "emerging evidence", families and the education workforce saw this attack for what it was: a cost-cutting exercise to strike fear into the hearts of families of children with disabilities and undermine children's basic right to education. That is totally unforgivable. If it is otherwise —.”
“<BR /> <BR />Classroom assistants are routinely subjected to violence at work and are hugely overstretched and underpaid, yet their work is transformative for thousands of pupils with special educational needs, especially those who receive one-to-one support. In making a statement on SEN reform in January, the Education Minister set alarm bells ringing by talking about how one-to-one support from classroom assistants is:”
“The current situation is totally unacceptable, and something urgently needs to change. Support should not cease when a young person leaves school, but, unfortunately, it does, and parents and carers are forced to pick up the pieces. <BR /> <BR />Change should start with how we value and respect the education workforce. The Education Minister has shown a remarkable lack of respect for education workers. He is ignoring the red flags that they and their unions have raised, and he has attempted to criminalise them for engaging in lawful strike action during school inspections. That is not to mention the fact that more than 1,300 transport and catering workers are still on temporary contracts. There are 15,000 classroom assistants on temporary contracts. They deserve job security and fair pay.”
“There is some long-overdue progress, but, crucially, a lot more information is required on whether pupils are in the correct educational setting. I welcome the fact that a note on that will come from the Minister, but at least six children — one child is too many, as the Member for Lagan Valley said; six is far too many — with SEN remain without a school place. A further 100 children will not have a full-time school place until Halloween due to ongoing construction works. That is totally unacceptable, Minister. You need to sort it out; your Department needs to sort it out ASAP. <BR /> <BR />At a protest this morning organised by Alma White and the campaign group Caleb's Cause, we were told that families are at breaking point. I support Alma, the other parents and their campaign.”
“Others did not find out at all. They just had to hope that the school bus would show up the next morning. Many children were stranded, left without any transport to school. The EA and the Minister promise that things will improve, but, every year, the chaos continues. Shamefully, pupils are left without school places, and decisions on school placements are made too late, which has knock-on effects on transport, childcare and much more, including people's life and routine. It is a perpetual crisis that only seems to get worse each summer. <BR /> <BR />I note that some progress has been made in SEN provision. It seems — I emphasise "seems" — as though fewer pupils are waiting for school places this year than last year.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I commend the Members of the Alliance Party who tabled the motion. I disagree with nothing in it, but it needs to be strengthened, hence the amendment in my name. I am happy to support the amendment in Mr Gaston's name. I am at a loss as to why the amendments are mutually exclusive, but that is where we are. <BR /> <BR />If you talk to any parent or education worker — I speak as somebody with several family members who teach, including in the SEN sector — they will tell you that the Executive are failing pupils with SEN. Each year, children with additional needs are treated as, at best, an afterthought. Last week, parents of SEN children found out about school transport arrangements at the last minute. Some were informed as late as Sunday night — the evening before their children were to return to school.”
“Minister, this morning you attended, alongside me and other MLAs, a mental health awareness event in the Long Gallery. What assessment have you or your officials made of the impact of implementing a Cass report mark II in the North? How will that impact on the health and mental health of trans and non-binary people who, as the Minister will know, already suffer from higher rates of mental ill-health and isolation due to the anti-trans rhetoric that is directed at them? I share the concerns of the Member for South Belfast at inviting Hilary Cass over here, given her report and how it has been discredited across the board.”
“I appreciate that. The Minister talked about becoming a pensioner and maybe not needing a free bus pass. That is fair enough, but I remind him that Age NI has said that around 40% of pensioners are in poverty. I implore the Minister and others Ministers not to place barriers in the way of people, especially when we have a loneliness crisis.”
“I say to him that, if a single MLA and a small team of dedicated staff can scrutinise legislation, an Opposition with more MLAs, staff and resources should be well able to do it, so there you go.”
“I oppose the clause, and I may well try to amend it. Neither the Finance Minister nor the Infrastructure Minister should be putting up barriers to travel. We have heard already about the growing scale of pensioner poverty. <BR /> <BR />Clause 19 deals with petroleum and mineral licensing. It is being presented as a technical element, which it may well be, but I am quite sceptical, given the scale of pre-approval for mineral licences. I am concerned about that and seek some assurances from the Finance Minister on it. <BR /> <BR />I suppose that I have to join with everybody else and say to the leader of the Opposition that he should maybe be careful what he wishes for. He demanded the legislation, and he now has it.”
“If the Minister could clarify that, it would be helpful. Is that a decision that can be taken by the Minister or the officials? Can or will it be brought to the Assembly? <BR /> <BR />Clause 17 deals with the travel concession passes. I agree with some of the concerns that were raised by the Deputy Chair of the Finance Committee. The clause provides the power to introduce a fee for a card. That could be £20, or it could be higher. At this stage, we do not know. I am totally opposed to any fee being charged for the card. I commend the people who campaigned for free travel for the over-60s and over-65s through the concessionary fare scheme. If you introduce a fee for the card, it is a slippery slope. Travel under that scheme will no longer be free by virtue of the fact that people will have to pay for the card. I am concerned about that.”
“Like, I am sure, other Members, I deal with constituents who are former Housing Executive tenants and have been charged in the region of £5,000 or £6,000 by private maintenance companies to get not huge elements of work done to their property, the communal areas of which are owned by the Housing Executive. There is no opportunity here to seek transparency or to challenge that, but there is in the South and in Britain. There is a huge question over why that is not being addressed. That is not to mention the Housing Executive tenants who are being dragged through the courts as they try to challenge decisions on their succession tenancies. <BR /> <BR />Clause 13 relates to the setting of the basic rate of allowance for councillors. That power has been conferred to DFC. I am just not sure why that is the case.”
“I agree with the Member that it would be better if it immigration were devolved matter and we could decide our own immigration policy, but it is not. The question is this: what are the Finance Minister and the First Minister doing about it, other than just shrugging their shoulders, which is not good enough? In response to Assembly questions that I have submitted, I have been told that there is no agreed position, which, again, is not good enough. I do not think that that is a good answer for people in Gaza, who are being pummelled and bombed to smithereens. <BR /> <BR />As has been stated, clause 12 deals with housing fraud and gives the Housing Executive the power to undertake tenancy fraud investigations on behalf of housing associations. My only concern about that is that it does not work the other way.”
“Sure. Thanks, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am talking about clause 7. Integration is covered by TEO strategies already. There is a big bit of work to be done on housing. There is also a big gap: TEO dealt with the scheme for Ukrainian refugees, and rightly so, but there is no specialised scheme for Palestinian refugees. That bit of work needs to be sped up. <BR /> <BR />On clause 12 —.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a big bit of work to be done on Mears, the state of the housing that people, particularly asylum seekers, are in and the speed at which people are, effectively, evicted from their homes when they get settled status. To me, that already falls under the remit of TEO, but I would like the Minister here and TEO —.”
“A few aspects of the Bill are concerning and need to be scrutinised a bit further. Obviously, the Finance Committee will do that, but it is worth teasing out some of the aspects this afternoon. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is being presented as dealing with routine financial matters, but some of the provisions are anything but routine and are obviously based on policy. I want to explore that. Clause 7, as Members said, deals with asylum and immigration integration support services. Maybe the Minister could clarify that. I am at a loss to understand what new powers, if any, are being handed to TEO. It would be useful if the Minister could clarify that. I think that TEO already has a power to do with integration.”
“First Minister, you obviously know that, last August, we saw disgraceful race riots, during which businesses were torched and burnt out in hate crimes. What is your assessment of the fact that it has taken Belfast City Council almost a year to pay compensation to the businesses and organisations affected? The new money is welcome, but I am concerned that most of those businesses have received only £4,000 in compensation, despite many of them losing, in effect, hundreds of thousands of pounds.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I appreciate those answers. <BR /> <BR />Minister, your North Belfast colleague raised the point about housing, and I refer to compulsory purchase orders (CPOs) as well. Is there any specific intention to reuse buildings for housing as part of the Bill, or is that more of a matter for DFC? Have you addressed that or looked at it?”
“Could a percentage, or all, of the buildings that are not being used and that may be in need of repair be transferred and used for housing? At least 22,000 homes are lying empty, and the figure could be greater. I would therefore appreciate it if the Minister were to clarify those points.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, housing is a key issue that is faced by Members across the North.”
“They are, maybe, not strong enough, but we cannot have this Minister doing one thing when the Finance Minister is taking a different approach and allowing public buildings to be sold off for private gain. <BR /> <BR />I am not convinced of the effectiveness of the £500 fine, as I mentioned, when there are more than 5,000 properties across the North whose owners are availing themselves of 100% rates relief. Empty commercial properties qualify for, I think, a 50% rates reduction. People could soak up multiple yearly £500 fines for breaching maintenance notices issued by councils, whilst thousands of pounds, if not tens of thousands of pounds, are unpaid in rates. The £500 fine is a good start — I welcome the principle — but it is not strong enough. I ask the Minister why he came up with that amount.”
“If someone repeatedly breaches the maintenance notice, there should be a question about whether they should be able to own that property or whether it should go into public ownership with the Housing Executive, the Department of Finance, DAERA or whomever. Have the Minister or his officials considered that? <BR /> <BR />The Bill also talks about low-level dilapidation but does not clarify what that is. There is a concern about that. As a quick segue, there is a concern about public buildings lying empty, as mentioned by the Member for Foyle. I am also concerned that government-owned buildings are being sold off for private gain. We had a Finance Committee discussion a few months ago about a Civil Service-owned building being sold to a private healthcare company. The Minister is making good strides.”
“Every nine or so months, it moves round Belfast to locate empty buildings so that it can put up hundreds of artists to allow them to do their work and create art in cultural spaces in Belfast city centre and beyond. There are departmental buildings and private buildings lying empty. <BR /> <BR />I am concerned that the £500 fine for owners of properties is just a slap on the wrist. The Minister should consider a multiple-strike policy, if he has not done so already. If a property owner repeatedly ignores or breaches a maintenance notice, there should be repercussions — something along the lines of a three-strike policy or a two-strike policy. The Minister should consider a transfer of buildings.”
“This is an improvement, but the legislation is not strong enough. I urge the Minister to make it more robust, and I ask him to clarify, in his closing remarks, why the fine is only £500. <BR /> <BR />Members have talked about the look of cities and towns. That is not unimportant, but the main focus should be on the fact that there are empty buildings while, as the Member for North Belfast said, tens of thousands of households across the North are homeless — staying in hostels, Airbnbs and hotels or sleeping on sofas or in cars and so on. We have empty buildings while organisations including but not limited to art organisations could avail themselves of them. I have met Vault, an important arts organisation in Belfast city centre.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 19 mentions the issuing of a fixed penalty of £500 on owner-occupiers if they breach a maintenance notice issued by the council. I am concerned that that is a paltry sum that developers and building owners could effectively brush off. It is only £500, which is very small. The Minister mentioned other figures in the thousands: will he clarify what they are? The only figure mentioned in the Bill is £500, which, I repeat, is too small for building owners — in some cases developers, in others individuals. Compare that with the way in which somebody who allegedly claims welfare that they should not be claiming or for which they are ineligible is treated. Their faces are plastered all over websites and media outlets, but the owners of buildings are treated with kid gloves.”
“My party supports the broad aims of the Bill. I thank the Minister for bringing it to the House. It is important that councils have more powers to tackle dilapidated and neglected buildings and to ensure that those buildings are utilised for the public good. I welcome the provisions that give powers to councils to give notice to owners and occupiers to fix problems within a time frame. The mind really boggles as to why that is not the law already. Do the Minister and his officials have any indication of how many buildings would be affected each year? Obviously, it could fluctuate on the basis of buildings deteriorating and so on, but I presume that there is a working figure. I would appreciate a number on that.”
“This should be a moment for thinking outside the box. I am concerned that the Bill, when it becomes law, will just mean more of the same.”
“Sure. I will bring my remarks to a conclusion. I am concerned that the council will not be ideologically neutral. People may cry foul in that regard, but I think that there is a commitment to neoliberal austerity. The idea has already been touted that the council is out of touch with what working-class people need and believe. <BR /> <BR />There is no mention of wealth taxes, or of an increased billionaire, wealthy, corporate class. It is my view, and that of many other people, that hugely profitable companies should pay more corporation tax. The Fiscal Council has not mentioned that. I do not believe that it will mention that with the passing of the Bill. The Bill just legislates for more of the same and, ultimately, will mean more fiscal punishment for working-class communities, with a red carpet rolled out for the wealthy.”
“I thank the Member for the intervention. That is potentially the case, but what we need is not rocket science. With respect to the chair and members of the council, we do not need experts: we need an understanding of the withdrawal of large sums of public money from our public services over the past 10 years. The Minister of Finance, in fairness to him, mentions that on occasion, but I am concerned that the Fiscal Council does not have a focus on that, and I am concerned about the direction of travel. I do not think that —.”
“They could say, "It's not our idea; it's the idea of the Fiscal Council". I am concerned that that is the direction of travel.”
“No problem. As I said, Principal Deputy Speaker, that was a statement from the Fiscal Council. That is concerning. It indicates a certain direction of travel from the Fiscal Council. It has talked before about further departmental savings, which is a translation for cuts. There is not much left to cut. Services have been cut to ribbons. The Fiscal Council has not talked about — I do not believe that it is mentioned in the Bill, either — the creeping privatisation of our public services. There is no mention of the massive and ever-increasing wealth inequality. It is not a topic of interest. I am concerned that the Executive will use the Fiscal Council's future proposals, and perhaps those that it has already made, as political cover for plunging people further into poverty.”
“Sure. I raised this issue at the Finance Committee a few weeks ago. I do not have the date to hand, but the quote from the Fiscal Council was "public-sector pay restraint". Every public-sector worker and trade unionist knows what that means: it means pay cuts. It is different language — flowery language — but that is the reality of what is —.”