Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“It is my understanding that most hospitals across the North — certainly, in Belfast, at least — had grave plots in Milltown that were sold back to the diocese of Down and Connor in 1994. Organ theft took place. I understand that some organs have been returned, but the practice was pretty widespread. At the time, the British Government had an anatomy inspector who went round the homes and institutions to secure the bodies without any consent from family members. What documentation exists about that? That is obviously horrible and gruesome, but it is also serious stuff. What has the Health Minister sought out? What has TEO done about that? What communication have they had with the British Government? <BR /> <BR />There is a willingness across the board to get a cross-departmental group to act on the recommendations.”
“I am keen to hear from the junior Minister about what TEO is doing already to seek and protect those records to ensure not only that the true scale of abuse and neglect is charted and that people who are entitled to compensation get it but that those who seek information about loved ones — I appreciate that not everybody will, but some do — and what happened to them get that information. It should be readily available to them. There are women alive today who went through those institutions and had babies removed from them in all sorts of horrible circumstances. They deserve some semblance of truth and justice. They deserve answers as well. <BR /> <BR />I have sent questions for written answer to the Health Minister seeking confirmation.”
“That is important, especially to people for whom religious burial is important, as it is to many across our society. Graves are still being sold now that could well contain the bodies of large numbers of infants. There is too much secrecy from the diocese and the Catholic Church around that. <BR /> <BR />Records and documentation are extremely important, as the mover of the motion mentioned. The Executive Office needs to do everything possible to protect them.”
“I agree with the Member that time is running out and about the lack of speed, to put it mildly, from the Executive Office. I totally agree with that. <BR /> <BR />As I said, there are 11,000 records available of babies and infants buried in the Milltown site. It is believed, however, that there are many, many more for whom records do not exist or are being destroyed. I do not know what is happening or what needs to be done to secure those records. Like, I am sure, most others in the House, I am concerned primarily about the victims and the families of people who need answers and justice. People in my constituency and beyond — many people from beyond West Belfast are buried in Milltown — may not know whether their loved one is buried in Milltown or, in some cases, who is buried beneath their loved one in the same grave.”
“I understand that records are available for at least 11,000 people who are buried on that land in the cemetery, most of whom were infants from Belfast hospitals, mother-and-baby homes, children's homes, workhouses, Catholic institutions and private addresses in some of the poorest communities.”
“Money was taken from skip companies and construction companies, and receipts exist for that. It is not clear, however, when dumping took place on the land, what happened to the body parts. <BR /> <BR />I call on the Executive Office to ensure that those documents are hunted down, analysed, protected and secured. The diocese has refused to bring back all the 37 acres. It purchased a fraction of it. Presumably it knows what is underneath it and does not want to be liable for it. Families that presented evidence about some of that to the Executive Office have requested that that land be tested to find the exact location of their relatives. Not everybody may want that, but some certainly do.”
“I thank the Member. I totally agree with that point. <BR /> <BR />Going back to the point about Milltown, there is particular concern that there could be mass graves under landfill. Bodies have actually been moved around because of unmarked burials. Some documentation exists for burials, but there are unmarked burials as well. Burials took place at the Poor Ground from 1937 until the 1990s. Adults, children and thousands of infants are buried there. Once the Poor Ground had been filled with burials, Milltown was due to close it in, I think, May 1980. Various articles reported that that would happen because there was no space left to bury people. That did not happen, however. Some of the land was used, by the diocese of Down and Connor, for landfill.”
“Some information has been aired publicly through media stories and representations by victims, survivors and others at Stormont Committees, but those need to be properly heard today, with other issues being added to them. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that religious institutions, with the full support of the state, failed those mothers and babies, when they were alive. What is not focused on so much in the debate in general, however, is how they have also been failed in death. It has been documented that at places such as Milltown, Tuam cemetery in the South and other places —.”
“It is not for me to comment on that, except to say that I suppose that people have been bounced into action by the motion, so it may be a case of saying, "Fair play" to the proposer of the motion. People ask why things are taking so long. How long are victims and survivors supposed to wait to get proper justice? <BR /> <BR />I want to focus many of my comments, at this stage, on Milltown cemetery and issues connected to it. That is not just because it is in my constituency; other Members have raised issues about it in the past. It is not just because people have come to me with huge concerns, which I will detail in a second, but because the cemetery provides a snapshot of the scale of the abuse that took place over many decades and of the outstanding issues for victims and survivors, which, I imagine, are replicated in other places.”
“<BR /> <BR />Families that have been in contact with me and others are asking that the First Minister and deputy First Minister publish the research reports that they have been sitting on. They feel that the process is taking far too long. The survivor stories, I am told, make for very hard reading: it is believed that they, in themselves, could force MLAs to act much more quickly and to support legislation coming through, if the reports are published. <BR /> <BR />There is also concern about the First Minister and deputy First Minister having failed to meet victims since the reports were commissioned in July. Some people are asking whether the reports have been read at all. I note, as the proposer of the motion did, that a letter was sent out late last night.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Members who tabled the motion for bringing it to the Floor and for supporting my amendment. I will expand upon it in my speech. It is important, in a general sense, that we have a process in place that recognises the deep hurt caused by clerical institutions towards people who they were supposed to be caring for. At least tens of thousands of women and children were directly failed by those institutions. Families were ripped apart, and children and young babies were neglected and, effectively, killed by those institutions through malnutrition and other acts of abuse and harm. I do not believe that they have truly atoned for their crimes. I support the motion, as I said, and hope that the amendment adds to and strengthens it.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are now major questions for the Executive parties about the response that they will take to the US regime. Will they continue to go out of their way to have a cosy relationship with that corrupt and rogue regime? It was bad enough when the US invaded Venezuela and snatched its president for a show trial and when it made threats to Greenland. It is decision time for the Executive and the Taoiseach. Will they support that regime or shun it? The best chance to shun it is to refuse to go to the White House on 17 March.”
“Last Saturday, the world witnessed the killing of Alex Jeffrey Pretti, who was a nurse in a local hospital — a veterans' hospital, no less. It seems as though, in the US, there is a Rodney King-type moment every week, with the state's going further and executing people, and it is recorded. Once again, attending a protest can be a death sentence for too many people in the United States. Alex Pretti intervened when he saw an ICE agent pepper-spraying a woman in the face. Despite the lies projected by Trump and others, he was using a phone at that event, but still he was deemed worthy of execution by a trained armed operator. That action — that execution — was committed by somebody who was well trained and funded by the US Government.”
“It is clear that the United States is a country that has been steeped in violence and suppression from the get-go. Parties in the House, especially the unionist parties, would do well to remember that fact as they clamber to celebrate everything red, white and blue this year. What we have witnessed since its creation, but especially in the past few months from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), is nothing short of fascistic violence from the biggest army and superpower in the world. In recent days, we have witnessed ICE agents violently arresting a five-year-old, Liam Ramos, and deporting him and his family to Texas, which is a state that they never wanted to go to. Just a few weeks ago, we had the execution of a mother, Renee Good, who was shot dead in cold blood for the world to see.”
“<BR /> <BR />I support today's motion, but we need far more transformational change that holds giant tech corporations to account, protects our children from algorithmic manipulation and builds a society in which women's liberation is the norm, not the exception.”
“My colleagues in the South are introducing a Bill in the Dáil that would crack down on recommender algorithms, especially for under-18s. Those algorithms pump the feeds of children and young people full of harmful, toxic content that promotes self-harm, eating disorders, misogyny, racism, homophobia and transphobia. A recent study found that, terrifyingly, 10 male-identified accounts of young people on 10 blank smartphones were all fed anti-feminist and other extremist content in just 23 minutes — and we wonder where the hate comes from. Within three hours, the vast majority of recommended content was toxic, mainly alpha male and anti-feminist material, with, unfortunately, Andrew Tate's featuring heavily. Obviously, that is about keeping people on the apps, which is their primary goal.”
“In some cases, they base their entire economies on supporting those AI systems. <BR /> <BR />Like many, I use social media, although I would prefer not to; I would rather go back to the old Nokia systems, which were referred to. Other companies exist. Social media companies have hugely damaged our collective public health in pursuit of profit. They have purposely exacerbated the crisis of violence and harm against women in order to line their pockets. They dangerously change algorithms to silence voices and bolster the far right. They will stop at nothing for profit. Only strong legal and regulatory action will curb online violence. Democratising and breaking up those huge organisations is part of the equation, too.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Executive talk about their investment in programmes to tackle violence against women and girls. However, £3·2 million spread across multiple initiatives is a drop in the ocean compared with the scale of the crisis. While the big parties pat themselves on the back for their minimal funding, perpetrators continue to abuse and degrade women and girls online with impunity. It is abundantly clear that we cannot expect the likes of Mark Zuckerberg and the owners of the other big tech companies to willingly subject themselves to more scrutiny and moderation, but the British and Irish Governments have not exactly been quick to act, either. The Member to my right asked how that can be allowed to happen. It is a fair question. It is because Governments are beholden to those companies in particular.”
“The statistics are stark: 96% of deepfakes are non-consensual pornography, and 99% of that material features women. The way in which AI is being weaponised against women and children can be understood only in the context of the oppressive capitalist system that we live under. Unfortunately, men have been abusing women for thousands of years. They have been enabled by a society that oppresses women and subjects every one of us to repressed, alienated lives. AI has not created misogyny, as others have suggested: it has just given it new tools and unprecedented reach. At this time, I warn against Executive Ministers running ahead with AI in a general sense because it is being promoted across the board, not only because of its harms but because it is a bubble that is likely to burst quite soon.”
“People who have worked in the AI sector, not just the socialist in Stormont, have warned about the risks to humanity from superintelligent AI. They have talked about human extinction. That is the gravity of what we are talking about. <BR /> <BR />AI has paved the way for a new era of misogyny. Chatbots parrot sexist tropes. Software is used to discriminate against women who apply for jobs. Dating apps make it easier than ever to harass women, not to mention how dangerous those apps and chatbots are for people with mental illness, as has been mentioned. Some people have been encouraged to commit suicide by those apps, which is horrendous. <BR /> <BR />The feminist writer Laura Bates explains that, although deepfakes are a new form of abuse, the underlying power dynamics are as old as time.”
“I thank the Member for proposing the motion. I pay tribute to the Member for East Derry and all women in this Building and beyond who have been affected by this horrendous practice. It is clear that our current laws are not fit for purpose and cannot manage the emerging risks from artificial intelligence. The Grok development shows that, as Mr Beattie said, Governments are playing catch-up on AI. That is putting it mildly. AI systems are developing at such a rapid pace that our existing laws cannot keep up. I do not want to give anybody else sleepless nights, but, if we think that the situation is out of control now, we need to be concerned about the dangers of superintelligence, which will make these already real risks even worse. That is why we should stop the development of superintelligence before it is too late.”
“I will not be shouted down. Empathy is not a dirty word; it should be the bare minimum for anybody who enters politics, never mind holds ministerial office. <BR /> <BR />Minister, how many breaches of the ministerial code are acceptable before a Minister should, first, apologise, never mind step aside because they are clearly unfit for the job?”
“Point somewhere else, Mr Pro-Israel, point somewhere else.”
“The first thing is that empathy is not a dirty word. It should be the bare minimum for people involved in politics.”
“It reviewed eight high-income countries where privatisation has taken place. Listen to that, Members, if you do not want to listen to me. I hope that you will back my amendment.”
“<BR /> <BR />When we talk about revenue raising in a general sense, water charges, prescription charges or higher student fees are usually referred to, but there is a solution staring Members right in the face that they are not willing to look at: ending the waste of privatisation. We are publicly funding a private health sector that is about maximising profit and, in many cases, picking up the easier procedures and leaving the more complex ones to the NHS. That is unfair and unsustainable, and people should not endorse it. <BR /> <BR />We often hear in the Chamber and elsewhere in the Building that we should listen to the experts. I do not claim to be an expert in much, but contributors to 'The Lancet' certainly have more expertise than me and many in the Assembly. In 2024, an article in it stated:”
“That is kind of what you are saying. The only reason why the Member and others think that we need the private health sector is that the NHS has been defunded, underfunded and stripped of funding. Every doctor, nurse, auxiliary or porter recruited to the private sector is one less doctor, nurse, auxiliary or porter in the NHS. The two are absolutely connected. We need to deal with a problem that is staring people right in the face. <BR /> <BR />Members shared personal stories. Linda Dillon mentioned her father, and I wish him well with his health issues. Daniel McCrossan mentioned his mother. Theirs were heartfelt stories. Danny Donnelly talked about eradicating corridor care, and I fundamentally agree. Rather than minimising or reducing it, we need to look at eradicating it.”
“I thank the Member. I certainly agree about an all-Ireland health service. As a party, we have pushed for that for quite a while. People want to be treated as quickly as possible and should be, and, for the most part, that can be done publicly. I will come on to that in a bit more detail. <BR /> <BR />I will move swiftly on. The Member for Upper Bann said that she would not vote for the amendment because we need a private health sector: I categorically disagree. We do not. We need its workers, beds and facilities. They should come under the direction of the trusts and the NHS more generally. To me, what she said suggests that the Member for Upper Bann does not have any faith in the publicly run health model, which she should.”
“I was almost speechless but, unsurprisingly, not quite speechless; Members will, no doubt, be glad to hear that. It is worth remembering that, last September, a similar amendment in my name was passed — in fairness, I do not think that the UUP backed it — that sought to end the huge public spending on private healthcare. That amendment was not described as "reckless" then, and —.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. We also need to be careful about sending out a message directly or indirectly that, if someone is unwell and has been advised to go to the ED or has nowhere else to go to, they should not go. That would be a dangerous argument to put out there, whether intentionally or inadvertently. <BR /> <BR />Alan Chambers talked about some of the pressures in the sector — in EDs in particular — and said that healthcare workers deserved more than just praise. He went on, however, to defend the Minister and attack the Alliance Party. It is certainly not my job to defend the Alliance Party, but some might say that that was unfair of him. I will leave it to others to determine that. Mr Chambers called my amendment "reckless".”
“<BR /> <BR />Other Members mentioned the fact that, contrary to what the Minister has just said, EDs in particular are laden with people who are struggling to be seen in a timely manner. I do not understand the logic of the argument that, because only two people were in EDs on Christmas Day, there is no crisis. I am happy to give way, if the Minister wishes to elaborate on that.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Thank you to everybody who contributed to the debate. I will run through some of the comments that were made and will close with my own comments. <BR /> <BR />It was a wide-ranging debate in which most Members recognised the problems in the sector. There was an element of papering over the cracks, but, for the most part, most parties and Members painted a realistic but grim picture of the state that, unfortunately, our health sector is in. Philip McGuigan, the Chair of the Health Committee, talked about system failure. He mentioned people waiting a long time on hard chairs in waiting rooms, which created an image of the scale of the crisis.”
“Minister, it appears that you and your Department are now taking a different approach to the criminal barristers' strike, which is certainly welcome. Have you any concerns, Minister, that, if you do not adequately fund criminal barristers and do not meet their demands more generally, they may go after work in more financially lucrative areas of law, leaving working-class communities, in particular, without effective representation in the court system?”
“Much is made about silo mentalities and the need for people to work together in this Building, but, when it comes to that part of the health service, that is not addressed or implemented. <BR /> <BR />Instead of throwing hundreds of millions of pounds of public money — good money — to the private healthcare sector, we should use that money to invest properly in publicly funded Health and Social Care workers and primary care. We do not have armies of healthcare workers in place, working for trusts, who can keep people healthy and out of hospital or work directly with patients who are ready to leave hospital or other healthcare settings in order to provide and put in place a proper care package. That is why I have tabled the amendment. I hope and trust that Members will support it.”
“Disgracefully, we have seen repeated attempts to take advantage of our healthcare workers and deny them proper pay and pay parity in a timely manner. <BR /> <BR />As has been mentioned, we also have a situation where people who are medically fit for discharge are unable to leave the hospital or healthcare setting because there is no care package in place or available. Those issues are all completely connected. Despite the best efforts of underpaid care workers, the private, for-profit model does not work for patients or people who work in the sector. Patients often receive 15-minute appointments and do not receive the detailed one-to-one care that is required. Workers are not paid appropriately for travel and are out of pocket because of low wages more generally. It is bonkers that we have such a disconnected health system.”
“I suspect that the figure here is higher. I hope that the Minister can provide that figure today. I have lost count of how many times over the winter this year and in previous years I have seen stories on social media of people and their loved ones waiting 12 hours or more in a corridor to get appropriate treatment. That is completely unacceptable. Over two thirds of nurses with the RCN have reported delivering care in "overcrowded and unsuitable places" every day. That is not only unfair and unjust for patients but totally unsustainable for the people who work in the sector and for the sector more generally. The reason why we are in that situation is simple: long-term divestment in our NHS over the past 15 years or so. We have seen A&Es closed and run down. We have witnessed beds being pulled out of hospitals and not replaced.”
“Pay healthcare workers properly, and recruit and retain staff by making healthcare jobs attractive again. The Executive must build capacity in our public system rather than subsidising private profits. Last year, the House passed a similar amendment. I hope and trust that Members will do the same today. <BR /> <BR />We have known what the problems are for years. The question is this: do the Minister and Executive have the political will to fix those problems, or will we continue the predictable cycle of crises and private-sector profiteering while patients suffer and workers burn out? People demand and deserve better. <BR /> <BR />I will just expand on some of the figures. In the UK, there has been a 525-fold increase in the number of people who receive what is called "corridor care", which is treatment on trolleys.”
“In the past decade, the Executive has paid £125 million of public money to one such hospital alone. That is outlandish. Waiting list initiatives funnel public money into private healthcare companies' coffers, once again throwing good money after bad. That is a dead-end strategy. You cannot solve a crisis in public healthcare by enriching private profiteers. Every pound spent on private sector contracts is a pound that could employ nurses, retain experienced doctors or reduce the crushing workload that is driving staff away. <BR /> <BR />The solution is staring us in the face: stop privatisation. Stop spending public money on private healthcare companies for waiting list initiatives and, instead, invest directly in our health service and its workforce.”
“At the root of the crisis is the systematic degradation of our healthcare workforce. The costs of hospital care have risen by 28% compared with just 8% in England. None of that reaches the workers' pockets. Healthcare staff have had to fight to get an insulting 3·6% pay offer from October — not backdated to April, as has been the case in England — and have been told to just accept it. Is it any wonder that staff morale is at rock bottom and people are leaving the sector and, in many cases, the country? We have 35% more registered nurses per capita than England, but we have longer waits and worse outcomes because the system is haemorrhaging experienced staff. <BR /> <BR />The Executive's solution is privatisation in the form of handing contracts to private — not independent: private — providers.”
“We have 127,000 people waiting for over a year for a first outpatient appointment. That is completely unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />The figure that was mentioned is worth repeating: 1,400 excess deaths occurred here that were linked to long A&E waits, and that is double the rate in Scotland, as has been said, despite our smaller population. The system is killing people. That is the blunt reality.”
“The corridor care, as it is euphemistically called, is a visual manifestation of the disastrous state of our health service. People in medical crisis are being treated in corridors and in staff changing rooms and being denied the dignity and respect that they deserve. Unfortunately, that has become completely normalised. <BR /> <BR />Last winter, one patient waited for 19 hours in an ambulance before hospital admission. People are routinely spending up to a day in A&E waiting rooms before seeing a doctor. That is completely unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />Last January, over 45% of patients were waiting for more than four hours in A&E, which is the worst performance across these islands. People here in the North are now four times more likely to wait for planned care than in England.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Winter comes every year and is not a surprise. It should not catch the Minister or the Executive off guard. However, each and every year, including this winter, the Executive act as though the annual winter healthcare crisis is unprecedented. <BR /> <BR />There is nothing that I disagree with in the Member's motion. I thank him for moving it and for his opening comments. However, my amendment adds to the motion. I will expand upon that. <BR /> <BR />The motion correctly deplores the disgraceful pressures being faced by patients and staff in emergency departments. Those pressures are entirely foreseeable. Plans that are published in mid-October or November are, as has been said, too little and too late. This year, we are in the same position.”
“Minister, it has been well documented that data centres are resource-intensive. They suck water and are a real drain on energy across the North and South of Ireland. Was there any discussion at the North/South meeting about limiting the roll-out of data centres or their impact on the environment, including water?”
“More on that later. I move the amendment. Thank you.”
“We need to ensure that hospitality workers are supported, protected and remunerated for the work that they do and the extra hours that they take on. That should include a zero tolerance policy for harassment and a requirement for employers to make sure that workers get home safely and are not out of pocket. This is about doing what we can to make sure that we have the best fleadh possible but also to start to reimagine how our city can look.”
“Pedestrianisation — "pedestrianising": that word that I always get correct — is important because we want people to feel safe and secure and not having to traverse a road with vehicles in the centre of Belfast or elsewhere. There are important points in that. <BR /> <BR />The Minister spoke in general about bigger events coming to the city and the North. It would be a mistake not to mention in passing the wrestling match in the Odyssey tonight where CM Punk is battling Finn Bálor for the world heavyweight championship. It is an important cultural event for many people in this Building and elsewhere — that is just a passing comment, Mr Deputy Speaker — and I am sure that the Minister would agree. <BR /> <BR />I talked about the need for later bar opening, public bathrooms and other additional services.”
“OK. The Member is comparing two different events, but he has made his point. As a general point, if jigs and reels are not inclusive, terrify certain people or make them recoil, that says a lot about their perspective on inclusivity and their prejudices. Before anyone gets offended, I say that as a general point. <BR /> <BR />Kellie Armstrong made the point about the need for the establishment of a working group and said that she supports the amendment, for which I thank her. Hopefully, if not through the Economy Minister — I thank the Minister for being here — we will get an update in the weeks and months ahead. If the amendment and motion pass, updates on that would be useful.”
“I said in passing to someone before the debate that I wondered how some would try to connect the fleadh to the IRA, and I think that Mr Brett did so quite creatively.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Members who contributed to the debate. I will not be able to go through every point, given the time limit, but I thank the parties that are supporting my amendment. <BR /> <BR />I will cover a couple of the comments. Jemma Dolan said that the fleadh is the biggest and best event for Irish music. She was optimistic that the benefits will stretch to Fermanagh. I like her optimism, and I hope so as well, as I do for other constituencies across the North. <BR /> <BR />Phillip Brett welcomed the fact that the fleadh is coming to Belfast. He mentioned that people might have reservations about it and praised the organisers for reaching out to them, if I heard him correctly.”
“I will indeed. For those to be impacted, we need to ensure that our hospitality workers are properly supported and paid, including a zero-tolerance policy on harassment, and employers should make sure that they get home safely and that they are not out of pocket. <BR /> <BR />Thank you for letting me go on a wee bit.”