Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“We therefore need to disband those groups, which instil fear and terror in people here. <BR /> <BR />We also need to end the practice of public bodies encouraging victims of violence, particularly victims of racist violence, to engage with the "community". That, quite often, is code for paramilitary organisations. I have experienced that and have worked with people who have been victims of racist violence who were told to engage with community leaders. What is meant by that is, in fact, leaders of paramilitary organisations. That issue was raised at the Committee for the Executive Office a matter of weeks ago, and I can confirm that it happens. Unfortunately, it is commonplace. The control that those terrible organisations have over people's lives needs to come to an end.”
“Rather, there is misinformation that needs to be challenged and called out by Ministers, especially in the House. That has not always been the case, as some have given succour through the repetition of that dangerous point. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion, but an obvious point that is missing from it concerns the role of state forces, particularly groups such as MI5. I have raised that issue previously in the context of its spying on journalists. How many activists, political reps, MLAs, trade unionists — anybody who challenges the status quo — are spied on, pressured or threatened by that organisation? How many people are pressured or threatened into becoming informants? We do not have the answer to that. We know that many, and probably all, paramilitary organisations are riddled with MI5 informants.”
“They act to thwart any attempt to have class unity and people fighting collectively against the Government and their policies. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me not to mention the role that loyalist paramilitaries played in the race riots that took place in the summer in Belfast and other parts of the North. We have to challenge robustly the nonsense that some people have put out that there was no paramilitary involvement but rather that it was members of those paramilitary groups with a different hat on who were engaging in the racist violence. If it walks like a duck and looks like a duck: you know the saying. All the talk of legitimate concerns about migration further bolsters paramilitary organisations' role and position in communities. I repeat: there are no legitimate concerns when we are talking about immigration.”
“Paramilitary groups rub their hands with glee when they see segregation in housing and education being maintained. <BR /> <BR />We have to talk about Stormont's economic strategy, which has left many people at the mercy of paramilitary organisations. How many people have gone to paramilitary organisations to seek a loan when they cannot afford to pay rent because of the cost-of-living crisis, benefit sanctions and so on? Those groups thrive on the economic deprivation and misery that Stormont has promoted through its policies. Will older people be going to paramilitary organisations for loans this winter because of the cut to the winter fuel payment? I do not know, but the question needs to be posed and answered. Paramilitary organisations act as gatekeepers, keeping people in misery.”
“At the same time as meeting groups such as the LCC, Ministers refused to meet hundreds of organisations, including the Equality Coalition, the Cliff Edge Coalition, the Women's Policy Group, Conradh na Gaeilge and the Department for Communities' own gender equality strategy and anti-poverty strategy co-design groups, to name but a few. That is shocking stuff. There is no room for them to meet anti-poverty groups, yet the red carpet is rolled out for paramilitary organisations. You could not make this stuff up. <BR /> <BR />An obvious question is this: why or how do paramilitary groups still exist? In part, it is because of direct action taken by some Stormont Ministers to elevate them and to operate a guarantor system for them, but it is also because of Stormont's role in maintaining, deepening and overseeing a divided society.”
“I support the motion. We still have a problem with paramilitary organisations not only existing but dictating life, intimidating people and whipping up sectarianism and racism in society. Stormont has not only played a role in allowing those organisations to exist but has, often, funded them through front organisations and has elevated them above other important groups in society. I strongly condemn the recent elevation of the LCC by the Communities Minister and Education Minister. You cannot talk about ending paramilitarism whilst having an open door to organisations that prey on working-class communities, vulnerable people and everybody.”
“<BR /> <BR />Those issues need to be addressed alongside the disgraceful fact that intimidation points are still not awarded to women who are victims of domestic violence. That is completely unforgivable, and it needs to change as a matter of urgency. I call on the Communities Minister to do that. Somebody could be a victim of domestic violence two, three, four or five-plus times and still not get intimidation points because the person who carried it out was not a member of a paramilitary organisation. Alongside that, we need to see tailored housing for victims and survivors of domestic abuse. Those issues need to be addressed. If they are not, we will probably come back to this unfortunate and tragic issue time and again.”
“It has a deep problem with violence against women, who often do not feel safe in their own home. That is completely unacceptable and tragic. The response from this institution to violence against women has not been strong enough. We need more than condemnation. Condemnation is important, but we need more. We need proper funding for organisations like Women's Aid and an increase in the availability of women's refuges and safe places where people can go if they are at risk of violence. Crucially, we also need financial support and a means for women and others to escape violence and partners or ex-partners who target them. For financial reasons, women are not able to simply get up and leave.”
“I raise the tragic killing of Mary Ward, who was brutally killed in south Belfast around two weeks ago. Mary was originally from west Belfast, and the community there and across the city are deeply horrified by the killing of that young woman. I publicly extend my deepest sympathy to the family, with whom I have been in communication. Tragically, Mary was not the only woman killed in recent weeks; if reports from yesterday's debate are correct, probably five women have been killed in the past six weeks. Every one of those women had a family, a community and a story to tell, but they were killed and taken far too soon. I publicly extend my heartfelt sympathies to all families who are experiencing something unimaginable but, unfortunately, all too frequent. <BR /> <BR />The society in which we live has a problem with misogyny.”
“I thank the Minister for the clarification. I appreciate that he has said that conversations are ongoing, but does he have a time frame for when there will hopefully be an announcement on a decision? Quiet conversations are important, but people want to hear public announcements.”
“More and more pressure is, in a general sense, being put on the community and voluntary sector to fundraise and to provide services, when all those services should instead be provided by the state through the public sector. In the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, it is completely unfair and quite twisted, to be frank, for struggling people to be told that they are being forced to pay for services on which they are more likely to rely. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion and the amendment, but I have to diverge somewhat from its call by saying that 100% of funding for the Children's Hospice should be provided by the Department of Health and the Executive.”
“If services prove to come out of that conversation, as hopefully they will, that is positive news.”
“Thank you. <BR /> <BR />I know that the Member and others were at that meeting. It is good that the issue was raised. I hope that the issue of Apple, extra money and billions was raised. There may be certain Ministers in the South who do not want to invest in these services, but I am sure that that point was raised by the Member or someone else. To be serious, it is an important point to raise. People should not be forced to travel any great distance, but especially having to get on an aeroplane and travel to England or elsewhere is unacceptable.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I know —.”
“He spoke out publicly last year about the enforced cuts. Care in all aspects should be socialised and should not fall on the shoulders of families or individuals. <BR /> <BR />It would, of course, be remiss not to mention the continuous austerity Budgets in this place, when it has sat, impacting on the healthcare and services that should be in place. It has been mentioned in passing, but the fact that there is no paediatric pathology service in the North is completely shocking. It is beyond tragic that, since 2019, paediatric post-mortem examinations have been carried out in Liverpool and around 240 families every year are forced to travel to England in the aftermath of the traumatic loss of a child. I want to know what the Minister is doing about that. There is more and more pressure —.”
“It is remarkable, when you think that around 350 children and their families use the hospice every year, that this is the only service of its kind. You cannot value the service or measure it in crude economic terms; it is completely invaluable. We know that, as has been said, families who have experienced its end-of-life and respite care have found it transformative and called it "a home away from home". <BR /> <BR />The hospice helps ease pressure on family relationships, improves mental health and gives time and space to plan the end-of-life care that is essential. Families who have used respite services have described them — it has been said already — as a lifeline. I pay tribute to someone I know, Matt Rooney, who has been so vocal on the benefits of respite services for himself and his family.”
“<BR /> <BR />That is our choice: more of the same bean-counting approach or a rapid shift in direction that recognises the need to properly invest in all public services. In this context, we are discussing the fact that the hospice faced a budget cut of £85,000 last year. That was completely cruel, uncalled for and shocking. The hospice needs to be put back on a financially sustainable footing. The best way — the only way — is to make sure that it is fully publicly funded. That is the only way to make it properly sustainable. <BR /> <BR />It is concerning to find that, even in the aftermath of that cut being reinstated, the bed capacity of the hospice was reduced and limited, particularly at weekends.”
“The hospice and all health services should be fully publicly funded. Some might ask, "How?". I am sure that Members are preparing interventions to say, "You cannot do it", "There is not enough money", "Budgets are tight" and all that. That is really saying that it is OK to operate budgets and services on a shoestring. As to where the money should come from, briefly, Apple has robbed taxpayers of €13 billion in unpaid taxes. Globally, $2 trillion could be raised if the example of Spain was followed by imposing a feather-light wealth tax on the 0·5% richest households. Despite the panic often predicted around such measures, targeting extreme wealth has not resulted in the super-rich fleeing.”
“Like other Members, I commend the work done by the Children's Hospice and all the important and essential care that it provides, the palliative care that has been mentioned and the life-enhancing work and care provided to people with life-limiting conditions. I agree with the motion and the amendment that provision of that care and those services should not depend on charity or fundraising. Of course, that is not to knock the people who give up their time and efforts to volunteer: the point is that this should be a key and core aspect of public health, and the key word here is "public". <BR /> <BR />It is unacceptable in an organisation like the NHS, which is supposed to be, as has been said, from the cradle to the grave, that often, at both ends of that journey, services are either limited or are completely non-existent.”
“Limited resources and financial prudence should not come into the discussion about trying to prevent violence and support women who have been victims of violence. I appreciate that you are standing in today, Minister, but have there been discussions about extra funding being made available to support people leaving abusive or violent relationships and situations? As has been mentioned, often but not always, it is a current or ex-partner who is violent.”
“It might affect only a small number of people, but if we can make a painful and tragic experience much easier to navigate for people who do not have English as their first language, it will be good legislation and in line with the other things mentioned by Members. I urge the Minister and her team to look at that.”
“Navigating that can be difficult at the best of times for people who might not have been born here or who do not have English as their first language, so I can only imagine how difficult it would be for anybody to navigate the situation of having a stillbirth or the death of a child. It is really awful to think of. <BR /> <BR />Some translation services are provided by the GRO, about which we were briefed last week or the week before through correspondence, but I am not sure whether those are wide-ranging enough. Given that the legislation has, once again, been delayed, this issue has not been considered as part of the original drafting, so I urge the Minister and her officials to look at that aspect.”
“The extension to the legislation will hopefully make very difficult, tragic and heartbreaking experiences, such as child deaths and stillbirths, a bit less painful to navigate. I am sure that most people outside the Building will welcome the change or have done so. <BR /> <BR />The Minister should be aware of a matter that I raised at Committee with the officials, who are in the Chamber. It was about the lack of provision and support for people who do not have English as their first language and how much consideration had been given to that. Obviously, society here predominantly uses English everywhere.”
“The Minister also needs to look at the domiciliary care sector and at the fact that so much domiciliary care is privately, not publicly, provided. People should not make money and profit from the provision of care. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we need to tie the Budget into all of this. The Minister's party has raised points and concerns about the Budget not being appropriate. The Budget also does not meet the needs of working-class communities more generally. It exacerbates deprivation, which will lead to more people needing social workers and using the care and support sectors. We therefore need to talk about what the Budget does not do for social work and about the knock-on pressures and problems that it will create for North Belfast and West Belfast in particular.”
“<BR /> <BR />I share the Member's concerns about a possible SAI, if one has not happened already. Given that gaping hole in the number of staff working with vulnerable people and given that, as I said, people are falling through the cracks, I am concerned about a potential scandal or SAI emerging down the line. That really should focus minds. <BR /> <BR />As I said earlier, social workers have been out on strike over the past year and longer. I have stood with them in the Whiterock and Shankill areas. To repeat, they are in dispute with the trusts. They demand a recognition payment, a career pathway and a caseload ceiling. All of that is relevant to what we are talking about now. Some people feel that the sector is not appropriate for them, given the pressure that they are under.”
“Again, one young person not getting access to services is one too many, but, if hundreds of young people in North Belfast and West Belfast are not getting access to them, that is really concerning and troubling and something on which we should all be focused. <BR /> <BR />My concern is this: how many young people are falling through the cracks in the system? What is the knock-on effect on those who have been denied services, a social worker and support, with everything that that support entails? The Minister always talks about the importance of mental health: what is the knock-on impact on the mental health of young people, if they are denied services because of the high number of staff vacancies? Young people's development and that kind of stuff will be impacted on as well.”
“I thank the Member for tabling the debate. The fact that the gap is 81 staff in North Belfast and West Belfast is pretty shocking. One gap is one too many, obviously. The fact that the gap is so large — close to 100 staff — shows that working-class communities in North Belfast and West Belfast are once again being failed, left behind and denied the services that they need to help them navigate the complexities and difficulties of life. I had not seen the answer to the Member's question for written answer beforehand, so I was shocked to hear those figures. <BR /> <BR />Given that social workers are overloaded with work, it probably amounts to hundreds of children and young people who are not getting the services and the support that they should get and to which they are entitled.”
“Not only is that cruel, unfair and difficult for families and young people, but it is penny wise and pound foolish. Again, who is measuring the impact on families, young people and carers? <BR /> <BR />It would be unwise not to mention the fact that a pre-determining factor in whether someone is likely to need care or come into the care system is economic class. Those who cannot afford the essentials of life, who are ground down by exorbitant costs effected by a system that historically has huge levels of wealth but so much misery and difficulty, are more likely to be affected and impacted on by the care system. If we are not looking at that simultaneously, we are missing the bigger picture in this debate.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Treasury economics of obsessing about financial prudence needs to go completely out the window, especially when we are talking about supporting young people and protecting them from harm. That is what we are talking about: supporting young people and protecting them from harm. It is also about giving people who have had a difficult and challenging start in life another chance and a better shot. There should not be an attempt — it has been alluded to in the debate — to, through further processes, sneak privatisation or payment in through the back door or the front door, as the 'Power to People' report attempts to. <BR /> <BR />I have to mention, as has already been referred to, that there are no specialist facilities for children with severe disabilities and no respite services.”
“How many more unallocated cases are too many — 100, 200, 300, 1,000? Are those numbers acceptable to the Minister or any Member in the House? We are talking about young people without a social worker. Who is measuring the impact on that young person? Those are valid and pertinent questions. To make an obvious point, there is no social work without social workers, so it is time that their conditions were sorted out. It is my understanding that talks between the trusts and the unions have broken down because of the attitude and approach of upper management. If that is indeed the case, a new attitude and a new approach towards social workers and their unions is needed.”
“I urge the Health Minister and his Department, along with the Executive, to cede to and implement those demands, otherwise the Minister, his Department and the Executive will oversee the further decline of those essential services.”
“Let us just think about that for a second. The people whose job it is to support and protect looked-after children have had to take strike action and other industrial action because of the state of the sector and the lack of support for those who work in it and for young people. The workers and their unions have three main demands: a recognition payment for the work that they do; a career pathway for people in the sector; and an effective caseload ceiling, so that people are not covering a ridiculous number of cases.”
“The Chair of the Health Committee mentioned that services for children and young people are overwhelmed. A more accurate description, as it was described to me in recent days, is that the services are in complete meltdown. Obviously, staff are working as hard as they can, but they are effectively trying to move water in a bucket full of holes. It is worth saying that there are many holes and problems in the current system and that has an impact on children, looked-after children and young people in particular. If we cannot ensure that those people receive the support and protection that they so rightly deserve, what chance does everyone else have across our society? <BR /> <BR />It is also worth mentioning in the debate that it is pertinent that social workers have been and are still in dispute with several health trusts across the North.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Minister, you said that we need "as many housing options as possible", and I agree with you. What work is your Department doing alongside the Finance Minister to look at vesting and compulsory purchasing powers in order to tackle the scourge of empty homes? When a home lies empty, at what point should public bodies be able to acquire it in order to tackle homelessness?”
“Minister, you have repeatedly used the phrase "legitimate concerns" when talking about migration. There is nothing legitimate to be concerned about when you are talking about migration. There is misinformation that definitely needs to be challenged and refuted. Will you commit to not again publicly using the phrase "legitimate concerns" when you talk about migration? Ministers need to be careful about language and not give a wink and a nod to people who may be engaged in racism or are perhaps racist thugs.”
“I remind the Minister that rent controls have worked in many countries in Europe and across the world. <BR /> <BR />Minister, what conversations took place between you and your counterparts on empty properties? There are 20,000 empty properties in the North and 166,000 in the South. Taking action on those empty homes could get rid of homelessness in one fell swoop, so what discussions took place on that?”
“I thank the Minister for that. I agree with her last point especially, and I welcome the other legislation that she is going to bring through on the issue. However, I have an overriding concern about payments being potentially limited, late or not forthcoming with this legislation or, potentially, the new legislation that the Minister mentioned. Access to justice should be for all, not just those who are able to pay. <BR /> <BR />Clause 29 focuses on criminal records, youth justice and the need for transparency with the rights of children. There is no mention in the Bill of a clean slate policy for young people when they turn 18 and giving them a second chance — a chance to start their life again. That should be considered by the Minister. I look forward to some clarity on the other points that I have made.”
“The Minister's argument for the Department of Justice having more control over determining payments for legal aid work is that it will streamline the process and the work, but it will also limit independent oversight.”
“I thank the Minister for that. Obviously, it is a wider point. You need to look at the issues relating to crime if you want to stop it. We are told that the Executive collaborate on many issues and, I believe, on this Bill as well. The point stands, but I take her point. <BR /> <BR />I move now to live links. I have a concern about clause 23 removing the requirement for the Comptroller and Auditor General to audit the Policing Board's performance plan. Again, I might have missed it earlier, but I am not sure why that is in the Bill or what the political rationale for it is. <BR /> <BR />The changes to legal aid require further exploration.”
“<BR /> <BR />Another omission that Members mentioned is the criminal age of responsibility. It is not dealt with. It should be raised to 16. It is a missed opportunity. The Minister may have explained her rationale for that earlier, and I might have missed it; I am not sure. <BR /> <BR />The Bill does not deal with the social or economic factors relating to crime. It should include looking at social and financial measures to support those dealing with the issues that lead people to criminal activity.”
“Someone under 18 who has a conviction for a non-serious offence involving a custodial sentence of more than five years will attract a 50-year retention period. At first look, that flies in the face of rehabilitation and a second chance, which is crucial for young people, and it seems excessive. You can serve your time, but the state will still have your data and info. It is blanket treatment, it is indiscriminate and it allows the state to hold information against people whom it deems to be undesirable. Who would seriously suggest that it would not be used for political purposes? I would have such concerns generally, at any time, but they have been amplified by the recent PSNI data leak. There is also no mechanism for people to contest the retention of their data.”
“To be honest, I was completely astounded to find out that the state can hold data indefinitely for people who have been convicted of crime. There are serious questions to ask about that practice and how it can be allowed to continue. Doing away with the indefinite holding of data is obviously welcome, but I do not honestly know whether the 75/50/25-year model is either reasonable or required. I remain to be convinced of that. NICCY also stated that it is unsure why the model should be part of the Bill. I ask the Minister this: where is the right to privacy and a personal life, especially for children and young people? <BR /> <BR />I move now to the retention of data for 25 years for two or more juvenile non-serious convictions that do not involve a custodial sentence of more than five years.”
“As has been said, our job is to sift through legislation, scrutinise it and ask questions. There are a lot of outstanding questions on the Bill that I will come to in a moment, and I hope to have some clarity from the Minister on them. <BR /> <BR />I recognise that large parts of the Bill relate to children and young people. Following issues that NICCY raised in correspondence to all MLAs, it appears that the Bill, whilst, no doubt, complex, does not seem to be fully cognisant of a children's rights framework. It is also worth mentioning that the legislation may impact on other groups, including asylum seekers and migrants — people who are often othered and marginalised in our society. <BR /> <BR />The aspects of the Bill that deal with biometric data require further focus and scrutiny.”
“Thank you, Minister. What work will be commenced or has commenced to ensure that any jobs created outside Belfast will be unionised jobs and not jobs with zero-hours contracts, to which you have already stated your opposition?”
“<BR /> <BR />After coming up to a year of genocide in Palestine, Israel, rather than listening to the peace and anti-war movement across the world and on this island to stop the slaughter and stop the killing, actually wants to expand the wars, if you think about it, in Lebanon, Yemen, Iran and who knows where else. It is up to us in this country to continue to isolate and condemn Israel and its actions and condemn the political ideology that drives and funds the apartheid state. Whilst Israel's actions are, of course, barbaric and devastating, Israel may have bitten off more than it can chew, and it could indeed provoke a region-wide uprising against it and against America's interests in the Middle East.”
“Whatever people's views about Hamas or Hezbollah, those groups did not exist for a lifetime. Israel's actions, particularly its occupation of Lebanon, brought about the formation of Hezbollah. The massacres of the PLO and of Palestinians and others in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, backed by Israel, gave an impetus to the rise of Hezbollah. In other words, it is Israel's actions — its provocation and its stirring up of hatred, occupation and launching of war — that are causing more instability, death and destruction in the region.”
“When it comes to discussion about the latest war, it is always "Iran-backed Hezbollah" but never "US-backed-and-supported Israel". Funny that.”
“We will find you whatever bombs or weapons you want".”
“One thousand killed and one million displaced over the past few days. I am not talking about Palestine this morning. Once again, Lebanon is being targeted and bombed by Israel. Once again, the biggest proponent of terror in the Middle East — Israel — is blowing up infrastructure and killing civilians on a mass scale. It is worth thinking about and worth posing this question: "If any other state in the Middle East — any other state — engaged in that kind of slaughter, what would happen?". It is nauseating to think that any other state would be met with condemnation from the US, Britain and other Western states, and perhaps even sanctions, but, because it is Israel and because Israel plays a pivotal role for imperialism, particularly for America, in the region, it is hands off and a case of, "Work away, lads.”
“Thank you, Minister. This is not the first time that a transport change has been made in West Belfast without the people impacted being consulted or notified. There used to be four hourly bus services going up the Suffolk Road; there are now two. Minister, there was, reportedly, a heated meeting between unions and Translink about the specific decision regarding 10J and 10K. Are you aware of that meeting? If not, will you investigate and report on the issue?”