Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“<BR /> <BR />The evidence that the Committee received raised concerns about the misuse of clause 15 in order to shield institutions. I have some concerns about that, to put it mildly, and there were widespread concerns about it amongst Committee members, so I hope that the relevant Minister can address them. Restriction orders must not become a mechanism by which the Churches or organisations that were responsible for the abuses can avoid public accountability. Transparency and victim protection are not mutually exclusive. As I said, however, we need to be careful that clause 15 is not weaponised against the very purpose of the inquiry, and assurances will be welcome. <BR /> <BR />Clause 17 deals with the privilege of witnesses before the inquiry in relation to requests for information.”
“OK. I thank the Member for that. I will, perhaps, come back to that in debate on the group 2 amendments. <BR /> <BR />Turning to the amendments in this group, I am broadly supportive of them all. However, I have some concerns that, hopefully, can be addressed. Clause 15 sets out the extent to which the inquiry proceedings can be held in private, evidence can be withheld from the public domain or a person's identity can be concealed. The balance there remains enormous; obviously, survivors must be protected and should not be retraumatised by exposure that they did not consent to. There is a difference, however, between protection for survivors and protection for institutions. I have some concerns about that, and I am sure that others do as well.”
“<BR /> <BR />Equally, workhouses are not included in schedule 2 to the Bill, meaning that those who were impacted by workhouses remain ineligible for the redress payment, despite workhouses being in the title of the Bill. I will address those issues later in the debate. <BR /> <BR />I will now turn to the amendments in this group.”
“That is very pertinent today. <BR /> <BR />The legislation is welcome and long overdue. The women and families who have campaigned for decades deserve to see it on the statute book. However, while it is welcome, that does not mean that it is perfect or sufficient. I have to say clearly that the fact that an arbitrary cut-off date for a posthumous claim remains in the Bill is completely unacceptable. An explanation is owed, not to me or the Committee necessarily, but to victims and survivors. Like other Members, I have been contacted by scores of constituents overnight who are devastated that an amendment on that was not selected for today's debate. I am sure that it is the same for others in the House.”
“As Sinéad said, he sent us photographs of his mother before and after she was put into the laundry. His message to us was simple:”
“I commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone for mentioning her mother. I imagine that that was not easy to do, but fair play to her. I extend my solidarity to her as well. <BR /> <BR />Before I address the legislation, I want to speak about the experience of Mr Robert O'Connor, who emailed me, Sinéad and other MLAs. As has been said, he mentioned that his mother was in the Good Shepherd Magdalene laundry in Derry. Decades ago, when Robert asked about his mother, he was told that she had passed away. Years later, he was contacted and asked to attend her funeral, only to find out that she had been buried under the wrong name. After years of campaigning, Robert finally succeeded in having her name corrected on the stone that memorialised women there.”
“I will speak to the group 1 amendments that stand in my name, which are amendment Nos 12, 13, 14, 16 and 21. This should not need to be said in the Chamber in 2026, but it must be put on the record that the women who were impacted on by the institutions that we are discussing today were not criminals or shameful. They were human beings — mothers, daughters and sisters — who were imprisoned by a system in which Church and state colluded to strip them of their dignity and, in many cases, of their children. I extend my solidarity to those women, including those who are present in the Gallery and those who are watching the debate. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Members who have contributed to the debate so far and those who have indicated their support for my amendments. I commend Committee members for their work.”
“If the people in this Building cannot pass legislation on trade unions and workers' rights or on supporting people with additional needs when they reach the age of 19, many people will ask what the point of this Building is. What is the point of having a Stormont Administration if they can get nothing through except higher rates for individuals? <BR /> <BR />I support the motion.”
“Thank you. I totally agree. I am sure that most people in the Gallery also agree. <BR /> <BR />In the last mandate, I sat here until 2.00 am and 3.00 am, passing legislation on bars and licensing. I was happy to do that: it was part of my job. I would have been content — and I am sure that others would have been — to sit in here until 1.00 am or 2.00 am to pass an amendment on this matter. However, on some days, we finish here at 4.00 pm or 5.00 pm, and there is a lack of legislation coming through. That issue needs to be raised as well. <BR /> <BR />We had a protest earlier today, lamenting the inaction on the 'good jobs' trade union legislation.”
“My understanding is that the demands of Caleb's cause can be rectified and met, as can the wider issue, with the passing of a simple amendment, so the obvious question to the Ulster Unionist Party is this: why have you not dragged your Minister here and tabled that amendment? If you are the tough, new leader who is getting the party into shape, you should be saying to the Health Minister, "Table that amendment". It is completely unacceptable that that has not been put in place.”
“Parents and carers pick up the slack and look after their children or family members because the state and the Executive have failed, not just this year but, as people have said, for decades and refuse to step in to provide those services. Most of that work usually falls on the shoulders of women. It is usually women who provide the labour — unpaid labour — because they love their sons, their daughters, their family members, but it should not be like that. We do not talk about the hundreds of millions of pounds that they are saving the state because the state refuses to step in, in this case and in many other areas. <BR /> <BR />It is always people outside this Building who make politicians move, often dragging them kicking and screaming.”
“Imagine if we said to people with a physical disability or someone on personal independence payment (PIP) or disability living allowance (DLA) that, when they reach an arbitrary age, their services, support and financial payment would stop. We would say that that is completely unacceptable and should not be the case, but somehow it is deemed to be the acceptable state of play for children and young people with SEN when they reach the age of 19. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to all the parents and carers, especially the ones in my own constituency. Just today, I was speaking to Katrina, who lives and works in my constituency. She told me that, when young people turn 19, those services just completely disappear. There is no respite provided, and she says that nobody wants to know. That is the case for parents and carers right across the board.”
“I declare an interest as I have a family member who works with schoolchildren with SEN. <BR /> <BR />I also pay tribute, as others have, to Alma and Caleb's cause. It is good to see the Gallery full of the campaigners and activists who have led the fight for young people in our communities, even though responsibility for doing so should not have fallen on their shoulders. They have to fight because, when people with disabilities reach the age of 19, they see SEN services being withdrawn and services completely ending. That is completely unfair, to put it mildly. <BR /> <BR />As I said, for young people who turn 19, those services completely disappear.”
“Thank you. I declare an interest, as I worked there, 10 or so years ago. Minister, do you agree that Colin Glen is a green haven in west Belfast and that there is a lack of green space in the area, generally speaking? Will you detail any work that your Department is doing, alongside the trust, to increase access, repair footpaths and make sure that people who wheel and who have mobility issues can get proper access around the park?”
“I remind the Member that such an obsession is not really good for his health.”
“All the i's cannot be dotted and all the t's crossed beforehand, but we could have some general principles about what a united Ireland could look like, which might include having an all-Ireland, publicly funded NHS; not supporting the US military going through Belfast International Airport, Shannon Airport or anywhere else; ending the empty homes scourge that sees hundreds of thousands of homes across the island, North and South, not being used while there is a homelessness crisis; and not being the bedfellow of US and other corporations. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP's obsession with Reform was mentioned, but I will leave it up to its Members to respond to that. I will say, however, that Jonny Farage has a bit of an obsession with the Green Party. He mentioned it an awful lot.”
“I asked that question of the proposer of the motion. It risks adopting a political approach in which we just merge the Northern and Southern states, with Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael-type politics dominating, which would be very detrimental to people on the island. <BR /> <BR />We need to have a positive vision.”
“The motion references growing support for a united Ireland. That is an important and welcome phenomenon. Despite what Members to my right have said, people are breaking from old traditions, and more are now open to, or are certainly considering, the possibility of a united Ireland. That is positive and welcome, but I have some concerns about the motion. I ask the SDLP to elaborate on what it means by constitutional change needing to be "carefully managed". I do not know what that means, and I would be wary of taking such an approach, which sounds like quite a timid form of politics. This is a time when we need bold politics. We need a vision for a workers' republic in the 21st century.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Labour movement in Britain was built by all sorts of nationalities, as was Britain itself: obviously, by people who are British; by the countless generations of Irish people who built homes, railways and buildings across Britain; and by people from the Caribbean, Pakistan, Africa and many more places. Shame on Keir Starmer for many things, and he should be ashamed of that dog-whistle politics as well.”
“They are net contributors to our society, financially, socially and culturally. <BR /> <BR />In my view and that of many people, Keir Starmer should shoulder a lot of the blame for Farage and the rise of Reform. He has tried to cloak himself in the Union Jack, quite literally, and has repeated some of the talking points of Nigel Farage. He also had the shameful audacity to quote and echo Enoch Powell in speeches. He knew what he was doing. He got called out and tried to backtrack. I suspect that Nigel Farage was rubbing his hands when he heard that speech.”
“The motion rightly expresses concern at the rise of right-wing views as expressed by Reform UK. It is extremely concerning, and it should be a wake-up call for anybody who was not paying attention. Whilst it is not inevitable, it is certainly likely that Reform will be the next Government in Westminster. <BR /> <BR />Farage's politics are toxic, racist and divisive, and people should see through them. It has to be said that the reason why he is in the position that he is in is that he and his arguments have been bolstered over the years by most mainstream coverage of many issues, such as migration or asylum seekers. I want to state quite clearly that migrants are not a problem and should not be seen as a problem. They should be neither seen nor presented in this House or anywhere else as a drain on society or resources.”
“With the recent election results in England, Scotland and Wales, it is clear that the Labour Party is presiding over a disastrous time in office. The Labour Party was elected in 2024 — the turnout, it must be said, was historically low — in the hope that it would be different from the corruption-riddled, rich-backing, austerity-addicted Tory party. However, in some ways, the Labour Party has been worse. It promised change and that things could be different, but it has done sod all. In many cases, it has made situations, such as the fuel payment scandal, to name but one, worse. <BR /> <BR />Obviously, part of the story of the council elections — I emphasise that it is just part of the story — is the increase in votes and seats for the Reform party.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I hope that I get six minutes as well.”
“Those life-saving services need sustained investment that reflects the scale of what those organisations are dealing with, which is a growth in violence against women. Michelle Downey deserved better, and the tens of thousands of women navigating coercive control in the North as we speak deserve better. The Minister must commence all outstanding protections under the 2021 Act without further delay, and the Executive must match every piece of legislation with the funding and cultural change needed to make it meaningful. <BR /> <BR />On the amendment, with no equivocation, Máiría Cahill absolutely deserves justice and was totally failed by the cover-up after the abuse that happened to her. For the most part, though, recent unionist leadership does not have a great track record when it comes to coercive control or familial abuse.”
“We also need to urgently implement the Domestic Abuse (Safe Leave) Act 2022 so that women who are experiencing abuse can take time away from work without fear of losing their livelihood or being financially penalised. As Members have said, leaving an abuser is not simple. It takes time, resources and support, and it usually is the most dangerous time for women. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to funding. Organisations such as Women's Aid are chronically and shamefully underfunded. They are holding the line every day for women in crisis, and they are doing it all on a shoestring. The Executive must urgently provide reliable, long-term investment in women's shelters and community-based support services, not short-term pots of money that disappear mid-year and force people to fight or fundraise for it.”
“I think that just 14 legal aid eligibility waivers were issued under that legislation in the first year. <BR /> <BR />The courtroom itself can become another arena of abuse, as Members have said. Campaigners against gender-based violence rightly say that the "shame must change sides". Victims should never face cross-examination from their abuser. They should never be interrogated about their sexual history, and I am quite shocked that that still happens. Defence teams should not have access to private counselling notes, and perpetrators should not be allowed to submit character references while their victims are dragged through re-traumatisation. That amounts to a continuation of abuse, this time in the courtroom instead of the home.”
“<BR /> <BR />Nearly 31,000 domestic abuse incidents were recorded by the police in the North last year. We know that that figure vastly understates the reality. Most domestic abuse is never reported at all. That is for many reasons, including that a growing number of people have no faith in the PSNI, never mind the justice system more generally. Coercive control is at the heart of so many of those cases. It is a slow, calculated campaign to strip a person of their autonomy and their sense of self. The 2021 Act was a step forward by the Minister, but it does not go far enough. Years on, key protections remain only partially implemented. Victims are still facing complex evidential requirements and restrictive legal aid eligibility that effectively prices them out of justice.”
“I thank the Members who tabled the motion. I want to begin by acknowledging a letter that I received from a constituent of mine, a mother from West Belfast. She wrote to me about her daughter Michelle Downey. I knew Michelle, having come across her in the Occupy Belfast campaign many years ago. Michelle died by suicide in September 2017 after years of sustained coercive control and domestic abuse, and I want to remember her today. An inquest that concluded in 2024 found that the cumulative weight of Michelle's experiences — the abuse and control that she went through — rendered her a particularly vulnerable woman and contributed directly to her death. She did not want to die; she wanted to live free from abuse, and the Assembly and the Executive owe it to Michelle and to every other woman in a position like hers to act.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. If I heard the Minister of Finance correctly, he said that he had raised this with the British Government on 18 occasions. Is the Member concerned to find out that, in that period, the Executive had no contingency plan to set aside money for those people in order to stand behind them, given that they knew how bad the British Government were and are. They did nothing to set aside money to protect people.”
“At every stage, we have seen the same pattern: late funding decisions and chaotic timelines that show contempt for the organisations that provide, on a shoestring budget, life-enhancing and life-saving services that ought to be provided by the state. <BR /> <BR />Working-class communities did not create the crisis. The young people who rely on those services, disabled people, carers and young people with nowhere else to turn did not create it. They should not be left to pay for it. I support the motion, but words in the Chamber mean nothing without the money in the Budget. I hope that the Finance Minister will confirm that that money will be allocated today. Significant damage has already been done, but the Minister and the wider Executive could step in now and save what is left of those jobs and services.”
“It is always found when the right people ask for it. The £15·8 million needed to plug the gap is and was entirely within the Executive's reach and remit. The multi-year Budget is the test. Ring-fencing that funding is not complicated: it requires political will and an acceptance of responsibility. In the past, the Finance Minister has put himself out there as a defender of big capital and multinational corporations, but he could have found the money for those organisations. <BR /> <BR />The Executive cannot claim ignorance. The sector has been warning them about the cliff edge for years, through the transition from the European social fund to the UK Shared Prosperity Fund and now this.”
“The question must be asked, although some may not like it being asked, why the same political will could not be summoned when it came to vital front-line services for some of our most marginalised people. Why was it there for home heating oil but not for the 11,000 people who are losing their only route into employment? <BR /> <BR />As was touched on, there is something deeply obscene about the fact that, on the exact same day as charity workers were handed redundancy notices, a £14,000 pay increase for MLAs came into effect. The four big parties and the SDLP found £1·2 million for a 27% pay rise for themselves. I have said this many times and will repeat it: last year, the Executive handed out £76 million in rates breaks to big multinational corporations Moy Park, Caterpillar, Coca-Cola, Thales and many others. Money was found.”
“That completely disregarded the North's labour market and service needs and the fact that local charities that deliver front-line employment and inclusion support rely heavily on revenue funding. <BR /> <BR />Despite months of letters, representations and joint Executive statements, the British Government made it clear that they had no intention of changing course, so we have long known where they stand. The harder question for some is where the Executive stand and where they have stood, because, last month, the Executive found an additional £19 million for home heating oil support. I welcome that — it was the right thing to do — but it also demonstrates something really important, which is that, when there is political will, funding can be found to mitigate the disastrous decisions coming out of Westminster. The Executive proved that.”
“<BR /> <BR />As we have heard, organisations that have spent years building trusted relationships with the most marginalised in our society — people with disabilities, women returning to work and young people furthest from any prospect of work — have been stripped of essential funding. Services that took years to design and build have been dismantled overnight. Those services are not an optional nice-to-have; they are essential social infrastructure. They are what stands between thousands of people and complete isolation from the economy and public life. <BR /> <BR />When those services go, the expertise of workers goes with it. Networks disintegrate, and trust is lost. Westminster made its choice in the form of a 70:30 split between capital and revenue.”
“I thank the Opposition for tabling this important motion, and I am happy to support it. <BR /> <BR />The slow collapse of our community and voluntary sector has been nothing short of catastrophic. The local growth fund fiasco is the latest iteration in more than a decade of underfunding and cuts. It is the predictable result of political choices being made in Westminster and political choices not being made in Stormont. From 1 April, as we have heard, funding for community-based employment support programmes was slashed by 64%. That has affected over 11,000 people who have lost access to vital support, and around 400 front-line workers are predicted to lose their jobs.”
“Does the Minister agree that one of the quickest ways for women's health to be improved and not be left behind is the roll-out of women's health hubs? If he agrees, will he start by rolling one out in West Belfast?”
“I also pay tribute to Katie Simpson, and my thoughts are with her family. It is clear that we are, once again, dealing with a PSNI failure when it comes to violence against women and girls. I know that the family, through their solicitor, have raised serious questions about the PSNI. I do not know how thorough its investigation was and whether anything was concealed from it — I hope that it was not — but, Minister, are you happy with the PSNI's investigation of the murder and how its officers, including the senior officer in charge, handled the case? How many members of the PSNI have been subject to disciplinary proceedings because of the investigation of the killing of Katie Simpson, and for what reasons were they disciplined?”
“We still have claims that British Army veterans are being chased into court and dragged here, there and everywhere, but there has been a dearth of prosecutions. Communities in west Belfast, north Belfast and Derry — we think of Bloody Sunday — and other working-class communities have experienced the most injustice, pain and misery. They have led the fight for —.”
“The court found that the British Army soldiers were in the wrong and that they lost control: how many times has that happened in west Belfast and other communities? The inquest declared that the force used was "not reasonable". The people who were shot and killed were unarmed. People were shot as they fled for safety and tried to help their neighbours and friends. That is what the inquest found. Of course, people in Springhill, west Belfast and, indeed, across the North have known that for decades. <BR /> <BR />The verdict is primarily for the family members who lost loved ones in July 1972. I pay tribute to them for their courageous and sterling work. The verdict also shines a light on how the past is viewed in the present.”
“While the verdict from last week's inquest was welcome, it would be remiss of me not to mention the family members who did not live to see it. I pay tribute to all family members of the Springhill massacre, who have stood up for truth and justice for so many years. <BR /> <BR />It would also be remiss of me not to mention the lives hurt and the damage caused by so much killing, misery and destruction inflicted by the state 54 years ago.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. The families of the Springhill massacre have waited 54 years for some recognition of the deep hurt, pain, trauma and anguish that was caused to them and the wider community. On 9 July 1972, five people, including three young people, were shot dead by the British Army: a priest, Noel Fitzpatrick; Patrick Butler, a worker at Belfast City Council and a father; Margaret Gargan, who was 13 years old; David McCafferty, who was 15 years old; and John Dougal, who was just 16 years old. <BR /> <BR />For many decades, the families had to bat away false allegations about their loved ones: about who they were and about what they did on that tragic, painful day. It was those family members who led the fight to clear their relatives' names, supported by the wider community.”
“Schools are given responsibility that they do not have the capacity or funding to meet, and the classroom assistants and SENCOs continue to be overworked and underpaid. <BR /> <BR />We have to challenge the Minister's attacks on one-to-one classroom assistants. That is what they are: attacks. A whole-school approach looks great on paper and sounds great in a ministerial speech, but it is not a substitute for individually specified provision. Parents hold up classroom assistant support as the gold standard for good reason: it works and has supported them. For many children and young people, their classroom assistant is the only thing that prevents them from being entirely left behind by a broken and underfunded education system. Minister, you have got it wrong. Reverse your plans and do not proceed down this path.”
“They cannot continue to do that in the context of budget cuts, mounting workloads and schools having a cap on the number of children and young people who can be referred to educational psychologists each year, meaning that it is up to the SENCOs to decide who needs support more than others. That is a shocking position for them to be in. <BR /> <BR />The crisis will be made worse if the Minister gets his way on the SEND reform agenda. It is not just me who says that: the Children's Law Centre (CLC), teaching unions and children's rights groups have come out with an extraordinary intervention, showing once again how out of touch the Minister is. I appeal to him to listen to the experts. They have said that he is going down the wrong path, and that needs to change.”
“I ask the Minister how much energy and time is being invested by those workers to fight — to fundraise — to protect and stand up for their schools instead of doing the job that they, as classroom assistants and SENCOs, are paid to do and are best placed to do. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to our SENCOs and everyone working in education — mainstream and special educational needs. They are managing a crisis and holding things together whilst doing all that they can to support our young people, educating them and providing the additional support that we have heard about.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a crisis, though, as I said, and a failure to properly invest in SEN school settings. A vivid and stark example of that, which was referred to in passing by the Member opposite, is the fact that school staff are forced to fundraise outside their contracted hours in a voluntary capacity to obtain basic equipment for what are usually but not always SEN schools. They have to fundraise to provide resources for children to access the developmental equipment that they need or for recreational purposes. That is appalling and disgraceful but shines a light on how the sector is left behind and forgotten about.”
“I am not too dissimilar to Miss McAllister in that I come from a big family, being one of seven, three of whom are teachers — the WhatsApp group is popping off — so I just declare that as an interest along with having worked in SEN. <BR /> <BR />The previous motion was about the crisis in the dental service and how underfunded and broken that system is. As night follows day, we are now talking about the crisis in education and in the SEN sector specifically. Just like that, it is, unfortunately, in crisis. Just as the dental service crisis was not caused by dentists or healthcare workers, the crisis in education was not caused by education workers, SENCOs, classroom assistants or even by parents or guardians who dared to fight for every last resource for their loved ones — who here would not do that?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. Does the Member agree that the best way to get the evidence is to listen to the dentists, because the patients will not provide videos? Does he agree that listening to the dentists is the best way for the Department, the Minister and the House to find out whether it is happening?”
“I appreciate the Minister's giving way. It has been widely reported by dentists that that is happening. Minister, if you were to get evidence of that, what would you do to ensure that it does not happen and is stamped out?”
“That is the only permanent solution to the dental emergency.”
“As the British Dental Association has put it, the service is running on empty. Dentists across the North are either going private or simply giving up. Dentists who spend the majority of their time delivering treatment on the NHS earn, on average, 46% less than those whose work is mostly private. That is unacceptable and, obviously, unsustainable. <BR /> <BR />Dentists are being financially punished for providing public healthcare. The cost-of-service review has still not been published, and it must form the basis of a genuine rebasing of fees and a serious programme of payment reform. Tinkering at the edges is not enough to end the crisis, however. We need full public ownership of dental services, free at the point of use, properly resourced and taken out of the hands of private profit entirely.”