Gerry Carroll
West Belfast · People Before Profit Alliance · Northern Ireland
“Yesterday morning, as others did, I stood alongside our resident doctors as they commenced a 24-hour period of industrial action. We often praise our healthcare workers in the House and more generally, saying things such as that they are invaluable and that we wish them well.”
“If we have learnt anything from the political events of the past week, it is that powerful people — powerful men, in particular — and institutions should always be held to maximum account when it comes to abuse, neglect and victims, and that victims and survivors should be believed and supported on every occasion.”
“Agency spend has, again, gone through the roof and is sky-high; locum spend has gone up and continues to go up — it has gone up by in the region of £0·5 billion over the past few years; and, almost every single year out of the past five to 10 years, hundreds of millions of pounds of public money have been pumped into the for-profit privat…”
“With bills increasing month-on-month and year-on-year, that is true, and those workers need a proper settlement that meets their needs and the ever-increasing cost of living. One striking doctor put it to me starkly yesterday. They said that they left Scotland and took a more senior position in the health sector in Belfast.”
“I commend Stephen and his colleagues in the Bill Office and the Executive Office officials, who worked closely with me to try to support, amend or help along my amendments — whatever way you want to look at it. I also want to commend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone who spoke out during the last few stages.”
“I commend people for speaking out on the issue, especially Sharon Burke. I think that she might be in the Gallery. She has been emailing Members on that issue.”
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“The root causes of homelessness are often multifaceted. Many who experience homelessness are also affected by addiction, relationship breakdown, poverty, disability and ill health, insecure work or unemployment. In my constituency of West Belfast, 4,100 households are on the social housing waiting list, and over 3,000 of those are homeless. Those figures are unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />The forces that drive our homelessness crisis are clear. Year after year, we refuse or fail to build enough social homes for the ever-increasing number of people who need them, which was over 88,000 at the last count. Hoping and waiting for in-year budget allocations to meet social housing building needs is not a sustainable or fair way of delivering social homes.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Has he ever been to one of those hotels? Does he understand that people have serious restrictions placed on their leaving and that the hotel cannot even cook for them? I therefore would not class those hotels as being hotels in any meaningful sense of the word.”
“The introduction of private finance in anything is deeply problematic, but, in the concept of justice, it is perplexing. How far do you intend that to go? How will you ensure that people are not encouraged to pick profitable cases and disregard others when it comes to justice?”
“I hope that the Minister will publish the minutes of that meeting. Does he agree that the £40,000 spent on the trip to the US and Canada was public money well spent?”
“<BR /> <BR />The solution to our recruitment and retention crisis lies in recognising the value of our workforce, paying workers properly, giving them fair terms and conditions and stopping the tide of privatisation by ending the reliance on agencies. It is time to get on with the job at hand and finish the maternity and children's hospital.”
“I remind Members who advocate for closure under the guise of transformation or reconfiguration to heed that point and to maybe think twice about their proposals for our health service. <BR /> <BR />Executive parties also talk about the need for investment in early intervention, prevention and community care, when, instead, trusts are being encouraged to make efficiency savings. That is complete doublespeak from Departments and Ministers. People are told that reform and transformation are not about saving money, but that is what they look like to many patients, to workers and, certainly, to me.”
“<BR /> <BR />The solution to our workforce recruitment and retention crisis is not to reconfigure our hospitals in the name of transformation. That usually means shutting down services and units, which leaves patients unable to access basic healthcare in their local community. Executive parties frequently talk about the need to make difficult decisions when it comes to the reconfiguration of primary care, without considering the wider socio-economic context or the impact on patients. Members of the Health Committee recently heard that patients in the Western Trust are missing scheduled appointments for surgery because they cannot afford the cost of travel or to take unpaid time off work.”
“They deliver high-quality care despite the cards being stacked against them in a crumbling health and social care system that has been damaged by decades of underinvestment. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, we will not be able to tackle waiting lists or make our health and social care services truly sustainable until we start treating our workers fairly. It is not fair that healthcare workers are once again being forced to beg for basic pay parity, despite politicians in this Building promising them that they would sort that out. It is not fair that healthcare workers clock on to shifts when there are dangerously unsafe staffing levels day after day. They cannot deliver high-quality care until we make our health and social care system a rewarding and safe environment in which to work.”
“It is worth reminding people that the Executive have overseen the outsourcing of healthcare to the private sector and the spending of millions on expensive agency and locum services. The Executive handed back £92 million of unspent money to the Treasury, a sum that is almost identical to the projected final cost of the maternity hospital. <BR /> <BR />Professor Renfrew's report on midwifery services talks about the need for "radical" system-wide change. Radical system-wide change is needed not only for maternity services but for our whole health and social care system. It is needed not to serve the project of counting pennies and cutting budgets but to bring a change that must start with our workers — those who deliver and support transformative, life-saving care in hospitals and the community — at its heart.”
“Yes, sure. I will repeat what I said earlier. I do not know whether he was listening. I said that Employers for Childcare reported that the average cost of a full-time childcare place in 2023 was £193 per week. Unless I have picked the Minister up wrongly, I heard him say that it was £400 per month. There are other figures; I could go on and on and on. The data is there. Go back to Hansard and see what it says.”
“That is right, but, when it comes to thinking outside the paradigm, it seems to be business as usual. That is not a good enough approach to this or any other issue. <BR /> <BR />Alliance MLA Sian Mulholland mentioned the shared aspiration of free childcare. That is good. However, I presume, from her comments, that she and her party will not vote for my amendment, which aims to provide universal free childcare. That is a shame. To me that says that, although people talk about the concern that exists out there, they do not want to rock the boat too much. There is an alternative. There is a solution out there, which is to fight for universal free access to childcare. I urge people to vote for the amendment that will provide it.”
“Unfortunately, it seems that free childcare is not the will of the House. The idea of access to essential services being based on need rather than ability to pay is a founding principle of the NHS. It is also a founding principle that applies to schools — primary and post-primary. Childcare is social infrastructure. Our current system is broken and is failing children, families and small childcare providers and workers. If we believe that every child and every family have the right to benefit from access to high-quality childcare according to need and not their ability to pay or what is in their bank account, we should be aiming and voting for universal free childcare by 2030. <BR /> <BR />I have no time to go through all the contributions to the debate. Some Members said that the current system is not functioning.”
“We should remember that childcare provided by parents and carers at home is work, it is labour, and the responsibility for raising children still rests overwhelmingly with women. The state has exploited the unpaid work of women for far too long. The care, education and development of our children have been commodified. It is deeply unfair that, while families are forking out many hundreds of pounds on average per month on childcare costs — certainly more than £400 — some companies are making profits hand over fist. The profit motive also undermines the quality of care that children receive and allows low pay and exploitative working conditions to flourish. <BR /> <BR />Families are at breaking point. This is ultimately a question of values and of what society considers to be a public good.”
“Thank you. If I heard you correctly, Minister, with regard to £400 per month on average for childcare, I think that your figures are way off. People are paying way more than that. That is not the first time in the past week, I think, that you might be incorrect on that. You may want to check the figures that I previously referred to. <BR /> <BR />Access to affordable childcare plays a big part in getting parents back to work. Too often, unaffordable or unsuitable childcare is a barrier for people returning to work, especially women. That is why the childcare subsidy scheme does not go far enough. The reality is that many people feel forced to return to low-quality, poorly paid jobs just to pay the bills.”
“Instead of placating the rich, we should be investing in community-led childcare services to allow providers to pay staff fairly and to provide free childcare to all who need it, whenever they need it. <BR /> <BR />I urge Members to support the amendment.”
“I hope that your Minister can tell us how much it will cost when he responds. I know that the Member has an aversion to making corporations pay taxes. He should maybe explain his rationale for that. It is mind-boggling to me that he is happy for a company to have £2 billion sitting in a bank and that he is happy for people to struggle to pay childcare. Square that circle. <BR /> <BR />Executive parties are making a conscious choice to prop up big businesses, which pollute our environment and often treat their workers poorly, at the expense of working-class families who are struggling to care for their kids. That is something that the Member for East Belfast is happy to maintain.”
“It also seems obvious to me that childcare should be available to all parents for as many or as few hours as they need. If we treat childcare as an essential universal basic service, workers should be given fair terms and conditions to reflect their responsibilities. Despite that, some in the Chamber will try to characterise the idea of universal free childcare — there has been an attempt already — as outlandish or unaffordable. However, there is more than enough wealth in our society to fund universal free childcare. Fair, progressive taxation would mean that the rich finally pay their fair share towards our public services. At the devolved level, the Executive could scrap rates relief for wealthy businesses. Stormont gave a £73 million handout last year to companies such as Coca-Cola —.”
“Treating childcare as a free and universal basic service would mean better outcomes for children and parents. Seventy per cent of parents surveyed by Pregnant Then Screwed said that they would work more if childcare was free. It is definitely viable. <BR /> <BR />The idea of universal basic services rests on the assumption that the main role of the state is to ensure that everyone's basic needs are met. That is not such a radical idea. If a state repeatedly fails to meet its citizens' basic needs, what purpose does the state serve? High-quality, free and accessible childcare is a basic need for every family with children. When seen in that way, as a basic public good, it seems obvious that access to childcare should not be determined by the wealth and working status of families.”
“We agree with the motion that the existing three-hour model does not go far enough to help struggling families. Parents in Scotland, England and Wales have access to 30 hours' free childcare a week. The fact that the preschool offer in the North is up to 22·5 hours a week reflects a shameful lack of action and ambition. What is even worse is that only 40% of children receive those 22·5 hours. <BR /> <BR />The early learning and childcare strategy should be published as a matter of priority. For almost a decade, the North has been the only part of these islands without a childcare strategy. In that vacuum and without targeted investment, costs for families have continued to rise, with working-class families suffering the most. Our amendment calls for a more radical change: aiming for the goal of universal free childcare by 2030.”
“That leaves too many families dependent on a failing social security system, which has been ravaged by over a decade and a half of austerity, to get by. <BR /> <BR />A lack of high-quality, accessible and affordable childcare affects us all, but it has particularly failed single parents and low-income families. Children who do not have access to high-quality early learning and childcare miss out on many things, including the early identification of special educational needs and disabilities. The damage does not stop there. Workers in the childcare sector are underpaid and overstretched, while small childcare providers struggle to break even. All of that is because our current political and economic system sees childcare as an individual or family responsibility rather than a collective social responsibility, which it is.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. High-quality, accessible and affordable childcare is one of life's basic essentials, but for too many families across the North, suitable and flexible childcare is too hard to find or the costs are simply far too high. Employers for Childcare reported that the average cost of a full-time childcare place in 2023 was £193 a week. Research by Melted Parents found that 80% of families spent more on childcare each month than on mortgage payments. For some people, juggling childcare with work just does not add up. Eighty-eight per cent of parents surveyed by Employers for Childcare had to change their work arrangements due to the cost of childcare, including cutting back on their working hours. Lower income households were much more likely to stop work altogether due to childcare costs.”
“I thank the Minister. In relation to problem-solving, does the Minister agree that the solution is public investment in NI Water? Will he expand upon any work that his Department has done to engage with Treasury around the new capital borrowing rules, which could allow NI Water to remain public but get access to more finance?”
“measures. That is the point I was making.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. It is slightly facetious, but the point that I made to his colleague was that, while you have repeated the mantra that there is no money, corporate profits are at a record high, and if you really wanted to fund universal free school meals, you could do it with”
“<BR /> <BR />Ministers should be ashamed that some families in society cannot afford to send their kids to school. That is effectively denying working-class children their basic right to education. On holiday hunger and the cost of school uniforms, the Executive need to give people more than just empty words. Parties that have failed to alleviate child poverty for over a decade already know what is needed to stop people going hungry; they have just refused to do it. The long-awaited anti-poverty strategy will be brought before the Executive in early 2025. The anti-poverty expert panel, the NI Audit Office, the Public Accounts Committee and many others have told the Executive what they need to do to tackle child poverty. My question is this: will the Minister and the Executive listen?”
“<BR /> <BR />As has been mentioned, the research from Parentkind paints a stark picture of how parents across the North struggle to afford the cost of sending their children to school. Two thirds of them said that the cost of school uniforms is their biggest struggle. Non-binding guidance for schools on uniform policy simply will not cut it; it is not strong enough. There is overwhelming public support for a cap on uniform costs. It is time for the Minister to deliver on that. The consultation on school uniform policy closed at the end of September. At a bare minimum, the Minister should provide an update on the outcome of that consultation so that legislation can be implemented before September 2025 to ensure that we do not go through this rigmarole again next summer.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. They say that, while there is austerity, there is plenty of money around. You do not even have to look across the water: Moy Park is the richest company in the North's history. It has a revenue of £2 billion, but you support and welcome that and do not call for extra taxes or higher rates on that company. There is money there. That is one company. <BR /> <BR />Some schools have taken it upon themselves to offer free meals to all pupils. It is a pity that cash-strapped schools are bearing the cost of that rather than the state. The Education Minister has long promised a public consultation on the eligibility criteria — those words again — for free school meals and school uniform grants. It would be helpful if he could commit to a specific timeline for that.”
“The Member should probably read my party's website and statements, which say that, while there is austerity —.”
“I call on the Minister to do so. Contrary to the point made by the Member for East Belfast, there is plenty of money to fund that. The will is lacking. <BR /> <BR />Dare I say that we should be more ambitious and offer free school meals to all children.”
“Trussell Trust food banks in the North distribute over 38,000 emergency food parcels for children. That is hard to believe, and is a 150% increase in the past five years. Managers of food banks have identified one key reason for that statistic: removal of the holiday hunger payment. <BR /> <BR />School holidays should be a time when families are excited and look forward to spending time together. Instead, in 2024, many are filled with dread, thinking about how they will cover the extra cost of meals each day. Hopefully, all of us agree that working-class children do not deserve to go hungry over school holidays. The question is this: what is going to be done about it? The solution is simple: we need to stop punishing working-class children and reinstate the holiday hunger payment in time for the 2025 summer holidays.”
“As has been said, at the start of the pandemic, the North introduced holiday hunger payments with a cash-first approach, which gave struggling families some dignity and control over their finances during school holidays. Despite some of the counterpoints, tackling poverty is not complicated. Over 100,000 children benefited from those payments. Inexplicably, in March 2023, the Department failed to allocate enough funding for the scheme to continue. That was in the middle of a post-COVID economic crisis that saw food price inflation soar, and that inflation has not come down since. <BR /> <BR />The removal of holiday hunger payments has not only harmed children who are eligible for free school meals but put huge pressure on community and voluntary organisations, as Members have said.”
“Leaving aside the obvious moral benefits of universal access to free school meals, does the Member agree that an economic saving could be made because it would prevent children from having to go to dentists, A&E and so on and that, therefore, even in that limited context, it has benefits?”
“I thank the Minister. I appreciate that you may not have the information, but what have you and your officials done to get it? There can be no passing of the buck, given that airports fall under your remit. What have you and your Department done to get information about what is on those planes? There is serious public concern about the issue. There are monthly protests at the airport. Given the concerns that have been raised about Shannon Airport and Belfast International Airport, it is the Department's duty to —”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I agree with her point about deprivation. Going back to her comment about genuinely held concerns, does she agree that that strategy and comment often help to feed racism, meaning that people think that it is OK or legitimate to bash migrants or asylum seekers? Does she agree that Ministers should challenge racist tropes and misinformation, rather than giving a wink, a nod or any encouragement to them?”
“There is nothing legitimate about racism, Islamophobia or the violent hatred of a bigoted minority. The attacks over the summer were not isolated incidents. They are part of a pattern of racist violence, and many of the migrant-owned businesses that were targeted in south Belfast have been attacked before on multiple occasions. <BR /> <BR />The racial equality strategy is still outstanding. Larne House is still open. The hostile environment is still in operation, and asylum seekers are denied the right to work and access to public services — the list goes on. Motions are important, but we need to see action on these points and many more if we are to push back racism and tackle the far right and growing fascism in our society.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have to say that Executive Ministers have played an active role — some of them — in stoking up racist mob violence, giving a wink and a nod. They talk about genuinely held concerns of far-right thugs and give legitimacy to hatred. I repeat, as the Member for South Belfast said eloquently: there is no such thing as genuinely held concerns when you are talking about racism and far-right violence. I have appealed before and appeal once again to the deputy First Minister: stop using that inflammatory and dangerous language. <BR /> <BR />The far right is on the rise. They are whipping up racist hate and scapegoating migrants for the economic and social problems facing our society. They use fear to divide working-class communities that have been repeatedly failed by the state.”
“Instead, we saw groups of residents and local communities stepping in to protect their migrant minority neighbours when the state cannot be relied on. The contrast between the way the police handled far right rampagers over the summer and how they cracked down on people taking part in Black Lives Matter protests or how they police people who are racialised minorities every day of the week is completely stark and striking. There is such a contrast. <BR /> <BR />It is worth repeating that migrants are not to blame for welfare cuts, despite what we have heard from some people today. Deepening poverty is not caused by migrants or refugees, nor is our housing crisis or the crumbling of our public services. The vast majority of us know that.”
“It defies belief, but the PSNI was given ample warning about those inevitable attacks, yet people were left vulnerable and neighbours were left to the mercy of the far right. We are still waiting for answers from the PSNI as to why that happened. <BR /> <BR />The PSNI simply cannot be trusted or depended on to protect migrants. I note the evidence from the North West Migrants Forum, which basically told of its experience of the PSNI effectively pushing it into the hands of community leaders, and we know what that means when it comes to dealing with racism. I have been told that by public bodies as well. When referred to, community leaders are, in reality, paramilitaries, and they have no place in our society, never mind any place in tackling racism. Many are involved in it themselves.”
“<BR /> <BR />The counter-mobilisations were organised by groups such as United Against Racism and many others, which are determined to stand up to racism, Islamophobia and hatred. Anti-racism activists, community groups, trade unionists and ordinary people stepped in to take action because the Executive have failed time and time again. That should teach us a lesson in the Chamber about where real power lies. It lies not in this Chamber but on the streets with ordinary, working-class, decent people. <BR /> <BR />Part of the review mentioned in the motion must involve holding the PSNI to account for its inaction. The PSNI failed to explain how violent racists were effectively given the green light to rampage around Belfast attacking migrants and their homes and migrant-owned businesses.”
“I support the motion, but I feel that it is a bit too little too late. It is also worth saying that the Executive's disapproval of racist violence did not force the far right and loyalist forces off the streets this summer. They were forced off the streets this summer by organised counter-mobilisations of tens of thousands of people in Belfast and beyond. It is important to say that now, because, at the time, some people were warning and urging people to stay away from counterprotests and not take to the streets. The violence was disgusting in August, but imagine how much worse it would have been in the aftermath had there not been those counter-mobilisations. Anti-fascist mobilisation is key and crucial to giving people confidence and to pushing aside the far right, fascist, loyalist paramilitaries.”
“Run-of-the-mill politics that maintain the strength of the rich and capital do not cut it. We need a new type of politics across the world that is based on international solidarity, working-class independent action and liberation movements from below so that we can push back against that Administration.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other obvious observation about the US election is the complete and utter collapse of the Democratic Party and its vote. It lost tens of millions of votes in the election. People stayed away, and I believe that they did so for a number of reasons. First of all, Harris and Biden were unconditional supporters of Israel and its genocidal war in Gaza. Harris was also a continuity candidate who had nothing meaningful to offer tens of millions of people in America. Inflation and debt are riding roughshod over communities in America. The Democrats and Republicans are completely immune from all the pressures that are spiking food and fuel prices. The liberal centre had nothing to offer people bar, "We are not Trump". <BR /> <BR />There is an important lesson in that for anyone who wants to fight the far right, racism and so on.”
“I want to disassociate myself from all the positive platitudes that have been meted out to Donald Trump on his re-election to the White House. Trump is a racist, sexist bigot who gives a damn only about himself and the American ruling class. Ministers in this Building should not operate a cosy, business-as-usual approach to Donald Trump for those reasons and more. Recent concerns about tariff wars really show how it is counterproductive, futile and damaging to have a whole economy, North and South, based on and catering for US corporations and the mega-rich. We need a new economic strategy that breaks with Trump and all the policies that he espouses. Walls need to be torn down, and the rich need to pay their way. I hope that working-class people in America of all backgrounds can begin to fight that Administration.”
“Yes, no problem. I would appreciate it if we could be informed of that. To expand on the point, do the bond amounts really reflect the current price of works? Is there still a gap in the cost between the works that need to be completed and the bond, with inflation and the cost of materials? Has the Department done a wider review of the bond process? We need some information on that as well. <BR /> <BR />I thank Members for their contributions, and I commend the amendment to the House.”
“He also stated that, in 2023, his Department increased the bond calculation rates, but I do not think that he stated what the increase was. I am happy to give way to the Minister if he can give a general figure on that. He might not have it at hand.”
“Fair play to people for doing that across the board, but that should not fall on their shoulders, solely. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Erskine raised a point similar to this: the Executive are happy to take in money from domestic rates, but, in many, many cases, they fail to take responsibility for adopting the roads and alleyways that surround the homes. It is not a radical idea to suggest that the state has a duty to take responsibility for the basic upkeep of public spaces. <BR /> <BR />The Minister previously said that he had implemented the vast majority of the 2012 recommendations from the Regional Development Committee inquiry. I do not think that he mentioned which recommendations have still to be implemented, so a bit of clarity on that would be useful.”
“Why not go back to the wide-scale public building of homes, so that we do not have to rely on developers, chase after them, get nowhere — in many cases — and, obviously, have people left in the lurch in the process? If it is more profitable for a developer to abandon a housing development than it is to finish or fix the infrastructure, the developer will, obviously, abandon the development, as we have heard. There is some legislation in that regard, but there is nothing meaningful or strong enough to compel them against doing so. There is a role for councils in that, as well. <BR /> <BR />If private companies cannot work out a way to make profit from our footpaths and alleyways, and the state refuses to adopt them, which is a reality, places will lie derelict and unsafe until communities take it upon themselves to transform the space.”
“I thank the Minister for that, but I still express concern. We need permanent workers rather than, what are usually, overpaid consultants. I have a concern about that. <BR /> <BR />Members raised wider issues, such as the fact that the number of unadopted roads and developments points to a lack of investment. Other points that were made referred to: a lack of investment in the services and the sector; the people who can make sure that those bonds are adequate and paid; and about investment in the water and sewerage infrastructure not keeping pace. I appreciate that I am probably in a minority of one in the House, but I say that the state of the unadopted roads and alleyways is a perfect illustration of the failure of the private market and of our over-reliance, in a general sense, on developers.”
“If I picked him up correctly, the Member for South Down asked a question about workers who work on the enforcement powers aspect of DFI. I reported earlier in the debate that, in 2015, there were 43 workers in that team, and now there are only 22. There has, therefore, been an almost 50% cut in the number of workers who could enforce the bonds and enforce proper payment. The Minister mentioned new staff being employed in other sections of his Department. That is welcome, but I am not sure why we need consultants, albeit, I know that he said that it would be temporary. I am happy to give way if he wants to clarify that.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister and Members for their comments and support of the amendment. Members raised various concerns about the plight of unadopted housing developments. The increase in the Strabane area was mentioned. The Member for Foyle said that there had been an almost 50% increase in eight years, if I heard him correctly, and he made scathing comments about the Department, some of which were warranted, but I gently remind him that his party held the post for two years. <BR /> <BR />The fact that a number of Members reported living in, or being about to live in, areas where the housing development was not adopted points to how much of a problem it is. It was useful for Members to say that.”