Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“As the Bill must receive Royal Assent before the end of the financial year, accelerated passage through the Assembly is required. My officials have attended the Committee on a number of occasions to answer questions on the spring Supplementary Estimates, the Vote on Account and the Budget Bill, which we will debate tomorrow. I put on record my thanks to the Finance Committee for agreeing to its accelerated passage. <BR /> <BR />Alongside the SSEs, which are for 2021-22, there is a Vote on Account that provides authority for Departments to spend in the first few months of 2022-23. The Vote on Account does not represent the setting of a 2022-23 Budget, which can be done only by the Executive. The amount for each Department in the Vote on Account is set at approximately 45% of the 2021-22 provision.”
“We can also carry over up to a limit of £104·3 million in unspent resource. It is my recommendation that we carry over at least £50 million of that. That means that the Executive, if they were in place, could allocate in the region of an extra £300 million to Departments next year, on top of the published draft Budget position. Unfortunately, the legal advice is that that cannot happen without an Executive, so that money will sit idle until such times as an Executive are re-established.”
“The Department for Communities, the Department of Education and the Department for Infrastructure have come forward with proposals to utilise the available resources. Having taken legal advice, it is my intention to make allocations to those Departments, despite the absence of an Executive. Sufficient headroom has been built into the spring Supplementary Estimates to ensure that those allocations can be utilised. <BR /> <BR />On 3 February, the Chancellor announced that a further £100 million would be allocated to the Executive as a consequence of the council tax rebate in England and confirmed that that can be carried forward in full into 2022-23. We will also receive an additional £150 million in 2022-23, following the announcement of a discount on electricity bills for consumers in Britain.”
“In the three monitoring rounds, the Executive allocated over £650 million additional resource and over £90 million capital. The detail of those allocations is published on my Department's website. <BR /> <BR />This has been another year in which financial management has been made more difficult by the pandemic and the uncertainty over our final funding envelope. The Executive concluded the January monitoring round with a significant level of funding remaining unallocated. While the Executive wish to maximise the amount carried forward into the next year, it is also important that total underspends do not exceed the limits imposed under the Budget exchange scheme. <BR /> <BR />As I explained to the Assembly last Tuesday, in normal circumstances, I would bring a paper to the Executive, recommending that £45 million be allocated now.”
“As you have set out, a LeasCheann Comhairle, the debate covers the Supply resolutions. The first resolution seeks the Assembly's approval of the 2021-22 spending plans of the Departments and other public bodies, as set out in the spring Supplementary Estimates, which were laid in the Assembly on 9 February 2022. The 2022-23 Vote on Account was laid alongside the spring Supplementary Estimates. It is the subject of the second Supply resolution. <BR /> <BR />The first resolution before the House relates to the supply of cash and use of resources for the current financial year. Since the Main Estimates in June 2021, the Executive have allocated additional funding received from Treasury and reallocated existing resources.”
“We are spending the money that is available at the end of the year, and we are ensuing that, whatever happens with the Executive in the new financial year, they will have £300 million at their disposal. I hope that the incoming Executive, whoever they are, will engage with the Budget that I have proposed, because it gives Health the uplift to do the sorts of things that the Member has talked about across all our health sites, including Daisy Hill.”
“I am not sure where the Member got the information that we are handing money back. I have spent the last hour and a half explaining how I do not intend to hand money back to Treasury. Perhaps explanation and repetition are required in some of these things before it eventually sinks in. The other fact is that the Health Department, which needs to bid for additional money to deliver to the trusts to do whatever the trusts want to do, has not bid for any money at the end of the year either. My ability to foist money on the Health Department and on the trusts to do recruitment is limited — regrettably, perhaps, on some occasions — but the fact is that the Member's initial premise that we are handing money back is completely false.”
“Do not impose penalties on the people whom we represent here, because it has no outcome for the discussions on the protocol.”
“The strategy might have some logic attached to it if it were having an impact, but, as far as I can see and as far as anybody who is sitting here can see, the negotiations on the protocol are going on undisturbed and they are almost oblivious to what is going on over here. The strategy is not having any effect, apart from impacting on the people whom we represent, people who are on waiting lists and people who are desperately seeking a better health outcome. <BR /> <BR />I say to those who have decided to bring down the Executive that, if you want to protest against what is going on with the protocol, bring that protest to where it has some impact. Bring it to the discussions, bring it to the British Government and bring it to the European Commission, who are conducting the negotiations.”
“Our advice to date is that it has to go through an Executive. That may well jeopardise that money. The National Insurance contributions that are being used to increase funding for health in Britain may well get stuck in the logjam because we have no Executive here. I hope that that will not be the case, but the advice that we have to date is that that is likely to be the case: if we do not have an Executive, we cannot give Health that uplift. You can see that all the plans to give Health significant support have been stymied by the absence of an Executive.”
“The primary means to fund our health service is through the Budget. We had put in place a draft Budget over three years, with a significant 10% uplift for Health in the time ahead. On that basis, Health was planning to tackle the waiting list issue, to fund in full cancer treatment services, to fund in full mental health services and to begin the transformation of health, which has been talked about for many years and is long overdue. It is also needed to get public spending on health under control. None of that is possible now in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />There was also a Barnett consequential to come across as a consequence of the National Insurance increase in Britain, and we have been engaging with Treasury and getting legal advice to see whether that Barnett consequential can come straight into Health.”
“We have legislated to close off that opportunity, but, as a compensatory factor, a £50 million Barnett consequential came across, and we decided to use that for one month for every business to recognise that there was some loss of right to claim compensation, although they had already been compensated, and to continue to recognise that sectors like retail, hospitality etc continued to struggle.”
“That is correct. There is a compensatory issue in that, because of the pandemic, people could have claimed compensation back on rates, but we had already compensated people for the impact of the pandemic, so it would have been a double receipt in that regard.”
“I will follow on from my answer to the previous question. One of the issues that were agreed in the draft Budget paper was that, as a consequence of the compensatory factor that came across as a Barnett consequential, all businesses will receive a one-month rates holiday, which will be the month of April in the new financial year. Targeted business sectors, including retail, hospitality, airports, childcare, newspapers — some of the sectors that, we agreed, have been hardest hit by the pandemic and on which we have done some policy work — will continue to struggle to recover and will receive a three-month rate holiday that will bring them to July.”
“We are not sure yet what it will be. Sometimes, after an announcement in Britain, it takes some time to find out whether a Barnett consequential will flow our way at all and, if it does, how much that will be. Then, it requires an Executive discussion, because we do not have to spend it on the reason for which it came across. I would be afraid that, in the absence of an Executive, we cannot take any decisions, should we be aware, in the near future, of what Barnett consequential might arise from that decision. We will keep across it. Obviously, I have been committed to working with the airports over the past couple of years. We have a good working relationship. We will continue to engage with and try to support them in whatever way we can in the time ahead.”
“We have been trying to engage specifically with City of Derry Airport on its business case for the time ahead. We will continue to try to engage with the airports to see what support we can provide. From a Finance perspective, we have been able to include them in that three-month rates holiday coming into next year.”
“One of the propositions that were agreed in the draft Budget paper — a number of things were agreed, and others were noted, which is why we cannot proceed with the Budget — was for the continuation of a rate holiday in the next financial year. Airports are included in that three-month rate holiday. They have received significant support. Obviously, they are starting to get back to more business since the pandemic has begun to recede somewhat. Nonetheless, they continue to struggle. It is a high-risk business, given its profit margins. The responsibility for airports is not as clear-cut here as it is in other jurisdictions. The Department of Finance plays a role, as do the Department for Infrastructure and Department for the Economy.”
“We have certainly heard loud and clear from those sectors about the consequences for them. As I said, while we want to ensure that we play our part in the reduction of emissions and in meeting climate change targets, that has to be done in a way that people can engage with. It seems to me that there are unforeseen consequences to the British Government's action. That is why I have raised that proposition with them and asked them to reconsider.”
“While we want to make a contribution to climate change support to ensure that we undo some of the damage of climate change, we have to do that in an organised and structured fashion, bring people with us and make sure that they are able to make the changes that are necessary.”
“I understand that we all have a responsibility to try to engage with policies and proposals that will help to reduce damage to the environment, and this is included in one such proposal. There are unforeseen consequences of that for farms and small contractors. Viable alternatives, or even support mechanisms, have not been put in place to move people away from that. It is a very short, sharp reduction. I have no doubt that the Member, and many others around the Chamber, have been lobbied about that over recent weeks and months. I have engaged with Treasury about that. I asked it to reconsider that proposal, and I outlined the effect that it was having on our agriculture and other sectors. As I said, contractors are also affected.”
“I have done quite a degree of consultation with the Education Department in relation to the draft Budget, and that issue has not been raised with me. I am quite happy to look at why that is the case. I am sure that you would expect that I, and any other Finance Minister, will want to get as much into our Budgets as we possibly can. If there is another method of achieving that through AME, I will certainly be very happy to explore it. However, that issue was not raised with me as a significant deficit by the Department of Education.”
“There was the option of putting in a Labour Government instead, but your party chose to support Theresa May and her Government. Those are the consequences that flow from that, in terms of our overall Budget spend. We do not have the ability to do all that, so we have to decide what we are going to do and what our priorities are. We know that, in doing that, there are other areas that do not receive the level of funding that they might otherwise have wanted. That was the choice that faced us. That is what every Executive have done. I do not recall any Executive since 1998 having all the funds that they wanted. We have to identify priorities and make choices. <BR /> <BR />I will come back to the Member on the AME question.”
“I am certainly happy to come back to the Member in writing about the reason for that. I will just say that, after the Executive collapsed in 2017, there was a solution — a deal on the table — in February 2018 that would have allowed the Executive to return. Your party rejected that. It returned to the same deal two years later and accepted it, so two of those years were down to your party. We can go over the whole history of RHI if you wish. <BR /> <BR />I understand that a Budget consultation process has been going on. That means that all the challenges and difficulties that will arise from the Budget will be discussed around Committee tables, within arm's-length bodies and all that. We do not have the resources to give everything that we want to everyone. Your party supported and kept in government an austerity Tory Government.”
“I am doing what I can in this financial year to make sure that that risk does not arise. I have written to Executive colleagues to propose a level of spend to try to ensure that we manage what we can carry over and what is spent in this financial year so that no money is returned to Treasury. If this situation continues for a lengthy period, it will be very difficult to spend that £300 million in the next financial year, so it is imperative that people get back around the Executive table as soon as they can.”
“I sought legal advice on that matter. In the absence of an Executive, it will not be possible to agree a final Budget for 2022-25. That means that Departments cannot plan on the basis of a settled multi-year Budget. Although mechanisms are in place to allow Departments to continue spending to maintain public services, they will not allow Departments to utilise the additional resources proposed in the draft Budget. That is of particular concern in the Department of Health, which expected a full 10% uplift to fund waiting lists, mental health and cancer strategies in full.”
“<BR /> <BR />The information that has been gathered to date will not be lost. That is banked. People can continue to make submissions, if they want to. However, I hope that we get back to a situation where we can pick that up in the near future.”
“As I said, I paused that exercise. I engaged in a series of Budget discussions with various sectors, and this morning's exercise was part of that. Those discussions are part of the consultation exercise. The meetings that I proposed have not been substantially changed by the fact that we do not have an Executive to agree a Budget. A lot of the participants wanted to continue the discussion anyway. They still have an opportunity to make a response to the Department, should they wish to do so. <BR /> <BR />The uncertainty that was caused by the First Minister's walkout from the Executive, and the collapse of the Executive's ability to do collective business, means that putting all of the Departments and arm's-length bodies through a body of work at this time in the financial year would have been a rather futile exercise.”
“The £300 million for next year would have gone a long way to supporting some of the Departments that were particularly squeezed, and that, in turn, would have gone a long way to providing certainty to those who rely on funding from those Departments.”
“Yes. Had the legal advice said that I could, I would have liked to pre-allocate that for Departments now for next year. A lot of Departments, and a lot of organisations that depend on spend coming from Departments, are sitting in a very uncertain position. I had meetings with the voluntary and community sector this morning. Recently, I had meetings with people involved in charities. I also had meetings this morning with people who rely on having certainty about the next financial year to decide whether they can employ staff, continue to employ staff and continue to provide training and other support programmes. They do not have that certainty yet.”
“For the sake of all of people that we represent, however, I hope that it will not be a very long time before an Executive are back in place. There is no logic to an Executive not sitting; that is not having any impact whatsoever on the protocol negotiations. Walking out and damaging the people of the North has been a pointless exercise as far as the stated objective goes. I hope that that logic leads people back into the Executive sooner rather than later. Nonetheless, I look forward to seeing the work of the Fiscal Commission. I think that it will contribute substantially to debate in the next mandate.”
“The Member's initial premise that you can prioritise Health but you then have to look at other areas is fine; that is what the Budget consultation was for. If you are going to give to Health, you either take that prioritisation back from Health or increase some Departments' budgets and further decrease other Departments' budgets. Those are the choices that you have to make. We cannot have motherhood and apple-pie; we have to have one or the other. <BR /> <BR />We were hoping that the Fiscal Commission's work would be done before the end of this mandate, but it will probably be early in the new mandate. That very much depends on how long it takes for an Executive to get back into place. If it takes a long time, so that we are back to restarting the entire Budget exercise, it might coincide with the time frame for that work.”
“Time and time again, the people in this institution and around the Executive table have said that the health service is the priority, that we need to tackle the big issues, that we need to begin the transformation process in the health service and that we need an opportunity to do that. We now have a three-year Budget, which gives us an opportunity to do that, so my question was this: do we want to match the spend with the rhetoric that people have been indulging in for the past four or five years in relation to Health? If so, other Departments will not get the level of increase that they want, but they will get an increase. It is then up to Ministers to prioritise where they spend that money in their Departments.”
“It was not a case of cuts of 2% to Departments. Rather, Departments were asked to find efficiencies of 2% over the Budget period. Even with that, every Department had an increase in its baseline budget and, therefore, an increase in money it could spend. <BR /> <BR />The point is that with finite resources comes prioritisation. We would love to spend all the money that is needed on all the areas that you have outlined, if we had all the money to do so. Ten years of austerity budgets from the Tory Government have meant that our public services are under huge strain, particularly our health service.”
“The draft Budget reflected the Executive’s wish to prioritise Health, providing it with a 10% uplift. While that has meant fewer resources for other Departments than they might otherwise have received, no Department faced a reduction from its baseline. Furthermore, since the publication of the draft Budget, an additional £300 million has been made available for next year. However, as I set out in my statement to the House last week, the absence of an Executive means that a Budget cannot be agreed before the start of the financial year. That means that Departments will not be able to access the additional resources proposed and, importantly, nor will they be able to plan on a long-term basis.”
“The Treasury has redone its books and changed the capital position for us. It notified us that we would receive £37·4 million less capital than previously advised, which means that we are now in an overspend situation with capital. So, it is not a question of trying to allocate any of that between now and the end of the financial year. As is always the case with capital, we anticipate some smaller amounts being surrendered, which will even things out. That notification only came to us after January monitoring, when the Treasury was doing its books.”
“I was proposing to spend the £45 million across a number of Departments on the basis that, if the money was not spent by the Executive, we would exceed our carry-over limits. I wanted to balance that out, because we will need significant additional funding next year, and the money would have been used to supplement some departmental budgets next year. At the end of the January monitoring round, we recognised that more money would be coming into the system and that I would be required to take further action to manage that. On that basis, I wrote to other Ministers with my proposal. The response has been largely positive, so I intend to press ahead with that.”
“<BR /> <BR />A number of Departments, including the Department for Communities, have bid for additional funding, and I have written to all the Ministers who are left in the Executive — obviously, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister are absent — to take their view on that. The response has largely been positive. I intend to propose spending some £45 million to £50 million between now and the end of the financial year across a range of Departments.”
“I have proposals to spend underspent funding to make sure that we do not surrender any money at the end of the financial year to the Treasury. I have circulated those around the Ministers. I would like to have made allocations for next year, in a three-year Budget, but that option is not now available, because there is no Executive. In the absence of an Executive, I want to ensure that we spend what we can and carry over as much as we can so that, hopefully, an incoming Executive in the short term will be able to allocate that money to where it is needed next year.”
“The last opportunity for Departments to submit reduced requirements due to underspends is in the January monitoring round. We know, from historical performance, that Departments will not always spend the full amounts that they forecast in January monitoring. That position is not confirmed until accounts have been audited after the end of the financial year. <BR /> <BR />Provisional out-turn, which provides a good indication of performance, is, however, notified to the Assembly alongside the June monitoring round. Departments provide monthly out-turn and forecast out-turn information, which may provide an early signal as to where underspends might emerge at the year end. That information is routinely provided to the Finance Committee. At this point, however, the published January monitoring position remains the latest available.”
“We have not received any as such, but it is now subject to court proceedings. I presume that matters relating to the decision that the Minister took have become sub judice. The direction that he gave is now subject to legal challenge. I understand that a court hearing is due in the next week or two. Perhaps we will then get some understanding of what his rationale was for the instruction that he gave to his officials. <BR /> <BR />Thankfully, our protocol arrangements, which we need to have and which the Executive have agreed, is the course that we need to follow. The courts have put a stay on the Minister's instruction, and we will see how they deal with it in the coming weeks.”
“No, there was not. I know from when I came into office where the disciplinary process sat. It had already been initiated and had taken forward the work from the inquiry. <BR /> <BR />Due process was followed, and people are entitled to that. The outworking of that perhaps does not reflect what the public might have expected from listening to the inquiry, but, nonetheless, that was the process put in place ahead of the Executive's return, and I have to respect the outcome of it.”
“You will find that the timeline meant that no Executive were in place when the disciplinary processes were begun.”
“A paper about the RHI scheme was due to be brought to the Executive before the First Minister resigned. We have been pressing for some certainty about the future of the scheme, because, and you are correct, the Executive had adopted a position of wanting to see the scheme closed. That went out to consultation. Complex legal issues are involved, but the Executive wanted to get back to a position in which we could take a decision on the future of the scheme. The paper was not in on time to be considered by the Executive, because the First Minister resigned. I want, however, to see the matter brought to a conclusion, as we had promised before the Executive were put in place.”
“Timescales for the remaining actions are proposed in the response, and there will be annual progress reports on them.”
“A number of recommendations cannot be implemented exactly as set out. An independent mechanism for discipline of special advisers was recommended. We are following the advice that the discipline of special advisers is the responsibility of Ministers. Following the passage of the Functioning of Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2021, that will be in line with the NICS handbook. <BR /> <BR />There are recommendations that we address as part of wider reforms and not immediately as stand-alone changes without the relevant context being put in place. Some of the recommendations are couched in terms that cannot be given effect by making new rules but simply require responsible Ministers and officials to conduct themselves in line with good practice.”
“Work to date includes the revision of codes of conduct for Ministers and special advisers and the introduction of guidance for Ministers; a better business case policy and new guidance on policymaking; the people strategy to build the capacity and capability of the Civil Service; the revised guidance on project delivery, and the creation of a project delivery profession in the Civil Service; new commercial skills and financial awareness training; significant reviews of policy and practice in records management; a revised Civil Service code of ethics; the transformation of the workforce model in the Civil Service and of the policies on Civil Service recruitment and workforce planning; and the development of a unified policy for raising concerns.”
“The Executive's corporate response to the RHI inquiry was published on Thursday 7 October 2021. It sets out, in a detailed action plan, the substantial work that has been done to date and the pieces of work that are still required.”
“There is a range of New Decade, New Approach commitments that Ministers try to meet. In every Department's budget, Ministers have a significant degree of autonomy to decide their priorities. As I said, if this institution collectively decides that health is a priority because of the big issues that need to be tackled, and if that is the outcome of the Budget consultation and the final Budget process, then, to reflect those discussions, that is the Budget that I would present. That undoubtedly puts pressure on other Departments, but Ministers will prioritise New Decade, New Approach commitments and a range of other matters. They will then try to match the budget available to the priorities that they identify.”
“The £300 million that we could have carried over and allocated in the next financial year could have met some of the immediate pressures, in year 1 certainly, for Departments like Justice, particularly in funding for the PSNI. That funding is, unfortunately, not now available to us, but I hope that an Executive will be back in place soon to take those decisions.”
“I have not had any discussions with the PSNI, but I have ongoing contact with the Department of Justice. We have had numerous communications with it to try to understand and get a sense of the issues that it will struggle with in the time ahead. I recognise, as I have said many times, that making the offer to Health, which the parties said should be prioritised, will put stress on other Departments. It is not a cut, because they all get an increase, but it is certainly not the amount of money that they would want. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to continue to work with the Department of Justice to understand these matters and the solutions that could have been found; however, that work might inform an incoming Executive.”