Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“It is imperative that the legislation completes its passage through the Assembly to provide the legislative authority for the Executive's expenditure as we emerge from the COVID-19 pandemic and continue to support our economy through the recovery phase. I ask Members to support the Bill.”
“Regardless of the overall economic policies of the United States and Great Britain — they seem to be moving from a tax-and-spend approach to a spend-and-tax approach — I hope that, when it comes to the spending review in London, we do not go back to the austerity approach that severely damaged all our public services over the past number of years. We are still struggling to play catch-up in the provision of public services, proper wages for public servants and all the issues that flow from a reduction in the Budget. <BR /> <BR />I have tried to respond to as many issues as I could. Undoubtedly, many of them were raised in previous debates.”
“The Executive allocated a further £20 million of funding for 2021-22 to honour their commitment to provide £60 million over five years to progress the safe staffing agenda and strengthen the nursing and midwifery workforce. <BR /> <BR />Gerry Carroll made a number of points. On many occasions, I have agreed with a lot of the points that he has made, such as that on our broader aspiration for a different and better outcome. The pay awards here broke from the approach that had been taken in London on recent pay awards, and I am pleased that the Executive managed to do that. I did not have at my disposal as much as I would have liked to give. Nonetheless, it was as much as we could afford at the time. I share Mr Carroll's view on President Biden's approach in the United States.”
“The short answer is no. It has not come through. There was some back and forth on presentational issues, but those were resolved some time ago. We have not heard anything since. I know that there has been a lot of turmoil in one half of the Executive Office, but I hope that we can get the report through quickly and get it done. The subcommittee completed its work some time back. I am sure that is was a number of months ago. We produced the report and gave it to the Executive Office, and I want to see that come through as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />Colm Gildernew, on behalf of the Health Committee, asked a question on staffing levels. In 2020-21, £5 million was invested in key priority services to strengthen the nursing workforce in district nursing, mental health nursing and emergency care nursing.”
“We are having ongoing discussions about that. Last week, I had a discussion with business organisations. One of the demands was for more frequent revaluation exercises, and we have now brought those forward. The shortest turnaround for revaluation is planned for 2023. That will take account of the pandemic and its impact on business rates. We are keeping in close contact, and there are reviews. Last year, there was an 18% reduction in non-domestic rates. That was kind of lost in the fact that we have used up about £520 million through affording people rates holidays. There has already been significant change, but we will continue to engage with businesses in the time ahead. As I said, one of the key demands was for the more rapid turnaround of revaluation, and we will deliver that in the time ahead.”
“If that has an implication for the amount of money that was allocated, we will want that money to be returned as quickly as possible so that we can reallocate it. The Department has indicated that the scheme is going ahead, however, and that is what the Executive agreed to. With all the COVID allocations that we have made, we keep a tight watching brief on all the Departments to make sure that, if money is not to be spent — whether that is at all or in full — we get very early notice to make sure that we get returns as early as possible. <BR /> <BR />Andrew Muir asked about the RHI subcommittee report. That has been with the Executive Office for a substantial period, and I want to see it brought through the Executive, agreed and put into place as soon as possible. He also asked about the review of non-domestic rates.”
“A huge amount of money has been allocated under ministerial direction this year because of the sudden nature of the injections of cash and the need to respond very quickly to the pandemic. There have been a number of ministerial directions in relation to schemes over the last year, so it is not unique in that sense. We will keep a close eye on that, however. The Department has plans in place that it is rolling out. From my understanding, it intends to have this scheme rolled out in the early autumn, when it believes that there will be a fall-off in spend compared with what people experience over the summer months. If there are any indications that the scheme will not go ahead as planned, we will want to know that from the Department as soon as possible.”
“We have no indication from the Department for the Economy that there is any issue with that scheme, but we will continue to ask questions about all the COVID allocations that we have made and ensure that we get regular updates over the summer and into the autumn so that we can make sure that those are spent as intended.”
“The allocation for economic recovery has been given to the Department for the Economy in full. Part of that allocation — £140 million, I think — is for the high street voucher scheme. This morning, I spoke to officials in the Department about keeping in regular contact with all Departments about the spending out of COVID money. If there are any issues about schemes proceeding, we want the earliest possible indication. If they are not going to proceed, the money will have to be surrendered and reallocated. I can assure you that there are schemes and projects that would like to take up any underspend. As we did last year, we will ensure that any COVID money that we have, albeit reduced this year, is spent out.”
“There are real issues for all projects. I have not been talking to any Ministers about specific projects, but officials will talk across Departments about the implications of this. They will need some time to see whether that is a permanent or temporary rise in costs. There have been indications that there is an expectation that some of the supply chain issues will resolve themselves, which may bring costs down. Nonetheless, we will have to keep a very close eye on that, and I am sure that it will inform our planning sessions when we get down to them over the summer and early autumn. We will have more information about Executive priorities in the time ahead, but that will affect every budget because, if costs go up, they go up for everything. <BR /> <BR />Issues were raised about the high street voucher scheme.”
“We hope that it might be a temporary increase. There are indications that there are problems with supply chains that may rectify themselves, but there has been a significant and growing increase in the costs of material. That has a knock-on implication for projects. We will keep a close watching brief on that, as we are concerned about how it plays out.”
“We will do that in the context of not knowing what the Budget outcome will be, but, as the Member has suggested, it is important to begin that planning exercise now. In the autumn, when we find out what the Budget outcome will be, we will have to adjust Departments' spending accordingly. Whether that means that we will have to surrender some money in order to meet those priorities will be a call for the Executive in the time ahead. However, it is important to begin that planning process as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />The Member also raised the issue of inflation. That is a growing concern, particularly in relation to construction costs. It is a concern generally, but construction costs and the indicative allocations for some significant construction projects may have to be revisited. That is a challenge”
“We have been through the argument about the one-year Budget many times and discussed the fact that the short-notice and standstill nature does not allow Departments to come up with anything new, other than to continue to tread water in challenging circumstances. However, we anticipate a multi-annual Budget. We have been told directly by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that that will be the outcome. I am in the process of writing to Executive colleagues inviting them to come together to have a more strategising session before the summer is out so that we can start to look at the priorities that the Executive will want to take forward over the next number of years. I am sure that health will feature at the top of everyone's list, but we will have to look at other priorities.”
“When I was in London a number of weeks ago, I spoke to Grant Shapps about support for connectivity here. We have also raised it with Dublin, particularly in respect of the City of Derry Airport, its air routes with Dublin and the possibility of supported air routes. We had intended to raise the issue on the margins of the North/South Ministerial Council on Friday, but the meeting did not happen. However, I hope that it will happen soon. We will continue that dialogue with Dublin. <BR /> <BR />I will go through some of the other issues. Matthew O'Toole raised issues relating to prioritising again.”
“That process is ongoing. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members mentioned the June monitoring bids. I hope to bring a statement to the Assembly next week. Yesterday evening, I sent proposals to the Executive, and I am hopeful that those can be resolved by Thursday. That will allow me to bring a statement next week. Of course, Members will know that, when statements and allocations go to Ministers, people often have issues to raise with them. Nonetheless, that is the intent. It is my intent to do it before the month is out — hopefully, next week. <BR /> <BR />Caoimhe Archibald also raised the issue of support for airlines. The Economy Minister has written to me regarding proposed support for the airline industry and about air connectivity in particular.”
“We need to be in a position, as a number of contributors have said, to set a multi-year Budget, because the predicted finance that the Health Department will require to address waiting lists is recurrent. This year, we have been able to give COVID money, which is helpful to the Department. However, the Health Minister and I have had the conversation, and we both understand that the Department needs recurrent funding so that it can employ staff to enable it to target waiting lists. We are committed to doing that. <BR /> <BR />Caoimhe Archibald raised issues regarding the recruitment of civil servants. There is a programme ongoing in relation to that. We also have apprenticeship programmes. We are trying to recognise the need to change the make-up and age profile of the Civil Service and ensure that it is more representative of society.”
“I would not be concerned that the work will drop, because it is a full Executive commitment, and I expect that whoever occupies the Department of Finance will take it on if it is not done during this mandate. I would certainly like to be able to do it. <BR /> <BR />Unsurprisingly, a number of Members addressed the issue of health waiting lists. We have the issue of addressing the waiting list backlog plus future health transformation and workforce planning. All of those things are interlinked, complex and financially challenging. Nonetheless, that is what the Executive have committed to do. As Members have said, the Health Minister has produced the elective care framework, with an identified price tag of more than £700 million over five years. There will be an Executive discussion on that in the near future.”
“The Member will know that the establishment of a fiscal council was agreed by all the Executive parties; it goes back to the Stormont House Agreement and was repeated in NDNA. There is an Executive commitment to establish the council. It is recognised that, in the first instance, initial terms of reference should be given to the council for consultation and analysis. Then, the council should work with us to finalise the terms of reference. In other places, that has been followed by legislation. If that can be done in this mandate, I am willing to try to do it, although we have been told by the Office of the Legislative Counsel that any legislation should have been tabled in the spring to ensure its passage. I understand that the Committee is keen to help us with that, and certainly, if it can be done, we will do it.”
“By the end of the summer, I expect to have the final terms of reference in place. We are looking at a possible legislative timetable to underpin that. That would be challenging, but the Committee is keen and has offered its assistance to do that. We will certainly look to do that in the time ahead.”
“We have started the process to begin that change, and it is my intention, whether I am in the Department or not, that the Department will continue that change over the next number of years to get to the point that the Chair and others rightly identified. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members, including Mr Keith Buchanan, made reference to the fiscal council and the fiscal commission and asked where they were. The fiscal council is consulting a range of stakeholders and taking their views on the initial terms of reference that we provided it with before they are finalised. That may include legislation, whether it is in this mandate or the next, to confirm that. That will include engagement with the Finance Committee, which, I think, is coming up soon, perhaps this week.”
“I am pleased to say that I am still where I was: in Finance. <BR /> <BR />I thank all the Members who have contributed to the debate today and those who contributed to the debates at the Bill's earlier stages and in the debate on the associated Supply resolution a number of weeks ago. I have listened to their remarks and am sure that I have answered some of them before. Nonetheless, the Chair of the Finance Committee knows that I share his view on the simplification of the Budget process and a desire to get to a space where we give the information that is required in an accessible way and conduct the process in a much more accessible way for Committees, Members and the general public. That has to be our objective.”
“I know that there have been quite a lot of changes to keep up with.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is the Final Stage of the legislative process for the Bill. I now look forward to hearing any final thoughts from Members on this important legislation.”
“<BR /> <BR />I remind Members that the Budget Bill was agreed by all Ministers and that no Minister proposed a single change to the allocations in the Bill. My Department continues to engage with all Departments to ensure that the Executive have an up-to-date picture of the pressures that they face and how the available resources are being used. As the year progresses, the Executive will make further decisions on the allocation of resources, and I will bring those back to the Assembly through the spring Supplementary Estimates (SSEs) and a subsequent Budget Bill at the end of the financial year. <BR /> <BR />I express my gratitude, once again, to the Finance Committee for giving agreement to accelerated passage. I thank all Statutory Committees and, indeed, all Members for the scrutiny that they have been able to bring to the process.”
“<BR /> <BR />With the limited resources available to us, the Bill provides funding for front-line Health and Social Care (HSC) workers to continue to roll out the vaccination programme and funding for waiting lists. It also provides funding for free school meals, special educational needs (SEN) and services to address the impact of COVID on the well-being and learning of children and young people. Funding has been provided to support business and jobs, including through the Job Start employer incentive and the economic recovery plan, which includes the high street voucher scheme. Support has been provided to individuals and families through the rates freeze and to businesses through the rates holiday. The Bill provides the legislative authority for that expenditure.”
“Today's Final Stage debate concludes this part of the legislative process for the Budget (No. 2) Bill. The Bill provides the legislative authority for the expenditure of Departments and other bodies as set out in the Main Estimates, which were laid in the Assembly on Thursday 27 May 2021. Those Main Estimates are in turn based on the departmental spending plans set out in the Executive's Budget 2021-22, including the in-year allocations confirmed at that time. As Members will know, the Treasury's spending review provides an increased capital budget; however, the Executive's non-COVID resource departmental expenditure limit (DEL) settlement essentially represents a standstill Budget, once increased costs and service demands are taken into account.”
“Michelle set in motion much-needed reform, and I have no doubt that she will drive that work through the Executive. <BR /> <BR />The Executive will face many challenges in the time ahead. The legacy of Brexit is still being played out. COVID-19 has not yet been defeated, although we can take heart that we are on the road to recovery. As Finance Minister, I can also testify to the impact of austerity and cuts to the block grant on our ability to maintain first-class public services. <BR /> <BR />Michelle O'Neill, however, has shown herself time and time again to be a strong, dedicated and undaunted leader. I have no doubt that she will face each and every one of those challenges head-on and deliver progressive, positive change for all our people. I am very pleased to nominate Michelle O'Neill MLA to the position of deputy First Minister.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I am delighted to nominate leasuachtarán Shinn Féin, Michelle O'Neill MLA, to the position of deputy First Minister. Michelle has jointly led these institutions through the most difficult times as she charted our way through the biggest public health crisis that we have faced in living memory. She led at all times with good grace and determination to do what is right for all our people, no matter what their background. <BR /> <BR />As a former Health Minister, she is extremely aware of and passionate about addressing the waiting list crisis in our health and social care system.”
“I thank the Chair and members of the Committee, who carried out scrutiny of the order. I very much welcome their support. I commend the motion to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />Targeted consultation has been carried out with the bodies that are included in the order. That has been undertaken by senior departmental statisticians, who consulted directly with the bodies that are sponsored by their Department. All three bodies have confirmed that they wish to be named in the order. As required by the Act, the Statistics Board has been consulted on the draft order. Ministers have also been briefed on the bodies in their respective areas that are included, and they are content. The order was considered by the Finance Committee. No objections were raised. I therefore recommend that the Official Statistics (Amendment) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021 be affirmed.”
“The people who produce official statistics are expected to comply with the standards in the Statistics Board's code of practice for statistics. They must comply with the relevant rules and principles that relate to the granting of pre-release access to official statistics and should name a lead official to liaise with departmental statisticians on the operation of the code of practice. <BR /> <BR />The benefits of being designated a producer of official statistics include recognised status for the statistics that are produced; a signal to government and other users that the statistics are produced to appropriate standards; the raised profile of statistics and of the importance of quality in the organisation; clarification of the importance of the statistics for policy use; and confirmation of the authoritative nature of the figures.”
“In 2011, the Executive approved the making of the Official Statistics Order (Northern Ireland) 2012. The order came into operation on 1 April 2012 and specified 14 non-Crown bodies as producers of official statistics. All the bodies that are listed in the 2012 order are part of the wider official statistics community, working in partnership with the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA). Extension of the official statistics community will further enhance the integrity, coherence and professionalism of the public sector's statistical system. <BR /> <BR />The impact of designation as a producer of official statistics on the list is that the production and publication of official statistics is subject to monitoring and reporting by the Statistics Board under section 8 of the 2007 Act.”
“Sections 6(1) (b) and 6(2) allow orders to be made by a Department to specify other persons as producers of official statistics. As Minister with responsibility for statistics, I have brought forward this legislation.”
“I am seeking the Assembly's affirmation of the Official Statistics (Amendment) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021. The amendment will expand the scope of official statistics by listing three further persons as producers of official statistics: the Education Authority for local school statistics, Invest NI for business development statistics and the Labour Relations Agency for employment relations statistics. <BR /> <BR />The Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 created a new non-ministerial department, the Statistics Board, which operates under the name UK Statistics Authority. Its role is to promote and safeguard the production and publication of official statistics that serve the public good. Under section 6(1)(a) of the Act, all statistics produced by a Department and other specified bodies are designated as official statistics.”
“In closing, I ask Members to support this measure. I commend the order to the Assembly.”
“However, as things stand, it is worth preserving the measure for at least another year. By doing that, we can help to ensure that those eligible ATMs are preserved in rural areas, providing greater access and support to those communities. <BR /> <BR />Kellie Armstrong asked a specific question about the definition. The selected definition of a rural ward within the terms of the scheme is a ward where over 80% of the population is deemed to be rural. Bespoke work was conducted for the Department by the NI Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) in relation to its use for this specific scheme. NISRA, in arriving at its assessment, employed the 2011 census population, the 2015 settlement definition and the 2014 ward boundary files. Those were used to set the criterion in the definition. I hope that that provides some illumination.”
“I thank Members for their comments on the order and, indeed, on the wider issues in relation to ATMs and the provision of services in designated rural areas. I believe that the scheme is worth continuing for those living in isolated rural communities and those who still depend on the availability of cash from ATMs. We can all appreciate the difficulties that would be encountered in those communities from any measure that reduces the availability of ATMs, especially at this time. The Executive wish to continue to do all that they can to support people and businesses in rural areas. <BR /> <BR />The long-term need for the scheme may change in future years, perhaps as people become more used to contactless payments as a result of the pandemic, but also as the machines are assessed differently through the system.”
“I turn to the statutory rule. Article 1 of the order sets out the citation, commencement and interpretation provisions. Article 2 provides for the extension, to 1 April 2022, of the date before which the scheme must end. Article 3 revokes the previous end date for the scheme, which was laid out in last year's legislation. I look forward to Members' comments, and I commend the Rates (Exemption for Automatic Telling Machines in Rural Areas) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021 to the House.”
“Although the measure is modest in scale and cost, the scheme continues to assist with the retention of rural ATMs, which is important to many of our rural communities.”
“The economic circumstances that we have experienced since then and the need to help rural businesses mean that that remains the case. <BR /> <BR />The legislation that we are discussing today will go some small way towards helping the retention of ATMs in rural areas by extending the scheme until March 2022. The scheme will continue to apply to stand-alone rural ATMs that are individually valued on the valuation list — for example, in separate units on main streets or completely stand-alone units. As in previous years, it does not need to apply to ATMs that are located in, and valued as part of, banks or building societies, which tend to be subsumed within the overall value of that property. The current revenue loss associated with the measure is modest, costing around £100,000 in foregone rates revenue.”
“The order extends the rural ATM rates exemption scheme until 2021-22. The scheme was reintroduced last year, having lapsed in 2017 in the absence of a functioning Assembly. The scheme had been a small but important measure in the non-domestic rating system, with the policy objective of encouraging and sustaining the provision of ATMs in rural areas by removing any rates liability for those facilities. Previous research and analysis, along with the feedback received during the business rates review conducted just prior to the pandemic, also confirmed the perceived value of the scheme despite its modest nature. In reintroducing the measure last year, the Executive took the view that the policy objectives behind the scheme remained important.”
“<BR /> <BR />Even from the discussion on this rather limited Bill, you can see the complexity and the ongoing work that needs to happen not just on this legislation, which is the first step in all this, but in the ongoing review of financial processes. I look forward to working closely with the Committee as it begins its detailed scrutiny of the Bill. I commend the Bill to the House.”
“A LeasCheann Comhairle, lest I create more confusion, my reference to wishing to do something was when I was Regional Development Minister for four years after 2007. I brought propositions to the Executive to look at the structure of NI Water and to bring it into the space that the Executive had considered that it should take, rather than the one that we inherited in 2007, which was a construct of the NIO. It is not that this is an ongoing process for me. My reference was to that time. If the Member is concerned about the Committee's inability to look at those figures, I am happy to raise that with the Department for Infrastructure.”
“I agree with the Member. The figures have to be provided, and people need to be able to access them. However, we also have a responsibility to make sure that the information is accessible, as in it is presented in a way that people can easily access, scrutinise and join the dots from one piece to another. That is all essential. While there will be an ongoing requirement to give all the detail, there is a better way of doing this. I look forward to engagement with the Committee and other MLAs in the Chamber, and I am sure that there will be consultation with the public to see how the figures can be better presented.”
“That was, from my perspective, an unfinished piece of business from the original decision, taken prior to the restoration of devolution in 2007, to set Northern Ireland Water up as a body that would charge domestic customers, rather than one that was largely funded by the Executive. Despite a number of attempts — some of which were made by me when I was Minister for Regional Development — to put it on a different footing that is more accessible, it still operates in that hybrid position, which adds to the complexity of its accounting process. <BR /> <BR />As Members pointed out, there are issues to be addressed by the Bill. It is only a step in that direction. There are many more issues to be addressed around the overall review of the financial process. Those will continue and will involve engagement with the Committee.”
“I would have thought that the Audit Committee would be the most appropriate place to follow up on that, but, if the Member feels that information is not being shared, I am more than happy to ask officials to pick up on that. <BR /> <BR />Jemma Dolan raised some questions about arm's-length bodies. The vast majority of arm's-length bodies come within the budgeting Estimate boundary, but public corporations such as Translink will continue to score. NI Water is an NDPB for budgeting purposes, but, as a Go-co, it is a public corporation for accounting purposes. It has that hybrid place.”
“If selected, it would follow the same process, but it is important that we do not. That is why the Bill does not address it. It has its impartiality. There is an ongoing convention of excluding the Audit Office from the directing of Estimates and accounts preparation by the Department of Finance, because there is a sense that that would be a risk to the independence of the Audit Office. It does its budgeting Estimates through a parallel process with the Audit Committee, and Mr Allister is a member of that Committee. <BR /> <BR />I am not sure that I can give Mr Allister an answer to the local government aspect of his question, but I will undertake to ask that.”
“There will be much work and discussion. The Bill will prompt that discussion with the Committee, and, through that, we can try to get as much consensus as possible about what will be needed in the time ahead. Everyone acknowledges that those are complex matters. They require that a significant amount of detail be made available. It is my desire to present that detail in a way that is accessible. <BR /> <BR />The Committee Chair also asked about controls on capital. He will be aware that the Assembly does not currently vote on capital spend, but, under the changes proposed in the Bill, the Assembly will vote on capital controls. The question about the fiscal council was raised again. As I said to the Chair, I am happy to engage with it. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister asked about the Audit Office.”
“I am very happy to engage with the fiscal council. As the Member knows, it is only starting to scope out its work. We have given it interim terms of reference — going terms of reference, if you will — and it intends to come back with others. I am more than happy to continue engagement with it in relation to this or any other matters that it considers to be of interest. <BR /> <BR />As I was saying, the Executive set out a process, but that was impeded because there was no Executive for a number of years. When the Executive picked up again, they were impeded by the onset of the pandemic. The intent is to have that review and for proposals to be brought forward from it. Those may include legislation, which Mr Allister asked about. The intent is also to be ready for the 2022-23 financial year. There is clear intent to bring that forward.”
“The Committee Chair and a number of other Members set out concerns about the scope of the Bill, believing that it does not go far enough. I appreciate that, but this is merely a step in that direction, and I never pretended that would be anything other than a step in the right direction. It will have to be followed through with ongoing review and intent. At last week's debate, I said that this was intended to be kick-started in 2016. I was not on the Executive at that time, so I do not have a record for Mr Muir of what was agreed. That start date was put in abeyance when the Executive went down for a number of years, and then the pandemic —.”