Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“The Executive agreed, as far back as May, I think, to provide £1·6 million to reimburse health workers who had been striking, as they went back in to face the front line of taking on the COVID pandemic. I made that money available to the Department of Heath, and it is, of course, a matter for the Health Minister to allocate that money.”
“I share the Member's difficulty, because I have a hearing difficulty and find it difficult, with the wearing of face coverings, to engage. I also find Zoom meetings difficult at times in terms of trying to hear what people are saying. It is a real challenge for those who have a hearing impairment. I am not certain about what work has been carried out, but I am happy to take her question back to the Department and provide her with a written answer.”
“I am pleased to say that work is progressing to install a Changing Places toilet near to the Mo Mowlam play park, which is a fantastic facility on this estate. The promotion of Changing Places toilets represents an important step in ensuring dignity and equality for all. I have had an opportunity to speak to Christine and other campaigners, and I am aware that there are Members in the Chamber who have been campaigning on the issue as well. Particularly in relation to play parks, when you see the wonderful facilities, the fact that some children cannot access them or cannot access proper toilet facilities while they access the facility is clearly an equality issue. I am pleased that we will bring that forward in building regulations. We will take our own initiative in the estate we have authority over, and I am doing that right away.”
“I am committed to incorporating Changing Places toilets into local building regulations as soon as possible. During the summer, I had the opportunity to meet Christine McClements, who has campaigned tirelessly for changes to building regulations in respect of Changing Places toilets. Following my meeting with Christine, I invited her to be part of the technical working group, and I am delighted that she accepted that invitation. The Department is now working through the necessary changes to make Changing Places toilets a requirement in new buildings that meet the specified criteria. Working with the Building Regulations Advisory Committee, the Department is developing proposals for the mandatory provision of Changing Places toilets.”
“Of course, a Department here has to be designated to carry it forward, but the real argument in relation to who pays for the scheme is still to be accepted by the British Government. That is what I intend to pursue, and that is what the Executive have asked me to pursue.”
“I assure the Member that that is what I have been trying to do: seeking to secure the funding. We do not know what the funding will be. We do not know what the cost is. The Minister of Justice put out an estimate that it will perhaps be up to £800 million. That is completely different from the estimate that the Northern Ireland Office gave us a number of months back. I have been attempting to secure a commitment from the British Government to live up to their own statement of funding policy. It is part of their rule book. They created the policy and legislated for it and, therefore, own the cost of it. That is what I intend to do. There is an idea that the NIO was trying to steamroller us into accepting responsibility for it.”
“The Northern Ireland Office and the British Government are responsible for paying out on the scheme.”
“As the Member will know, according to the statement of funding policy from Whitehall, the party that proposes and legislates for the policy carries the cost of the implementation of that policy. That is the Executive's position. The people who have done that are the British Government and the NIO. Now, what they have legislated for and the policy that they have put forward is not what was agreed at Stormont House. It is different from what was agreed at Stormont House, and, therefore, they own it. Acting on behalf of the Executive, it is my clear view — it is a clear argument that I have made to Treasury and the NIO on behalf of the Executive — that they are responsible for paying whatever this costs. As yet, we have no clear figures for what it would cost.”
“Over the summer months, we have been endeavouring to get an agreed economic recovery strategy from the Executive. I have said that I want to allocate the remaining money. We have a limited remaining pot of COVID money. The Treasury has made it clear that that is it as far as this financial year is concerned. Of course, we have the money sitting with Health, but, as regards what is at our disposal, that is it. I wanted to make sure that it was allocated against economic recovery proposals that the Executive had endorsed. We did not have those over the summer. We now have those, and I am in a position to make an allocation this week. I will bring a proposal to the Executive on Thursday.”
“As the Member will know, money that comes across as a Barnett consequential is unhypothecated; it is not ring-fenced for any particular area. In and around the time that that money came across, we made a £4 million allocation of some resilience money for the arts. As with the bid for the councils and local government, there has been a bid from the Department for Communities to support the arts. I see that very much as economic support as well, because arts venues are very much part of our tourism product and economic product. I am sympathetic to the arguments that were made and intend to bring a proposition on that to the Executive on Thursday.”
“I had the opportunity, I think, on Friday to address a NILGA delegation and take questions from councillors from all 11 councils. It is hugely important to have that engagement. The closer the working relationship between central government here and local government, the better the public services that we will collectively provide. My Department, through Land and Property Services (LPS) and others, is working with the councils on rates. Engagement is happening on council spend and projecting council spend over the financial year. Yes, I absolutely want officials to continue to work with councils to assess their needs; of course, communities have a role there as well. While bearing in mind the limited pot that we have to go round all Departments, we must make sure that we support them as best we can.”
“We have a very good working relationship with the Department for Communities, as we do with all Departments. Finance works closely with every Department. We have had many engagements with the Minister and the Department for Communities. I think that we have another meeting scheduled for Thursday morning. We have already given, I think, an additional £20 million to councils this year for their COVID response. I am on record, in response to a previous question, acknowledging the role that councils have played and how they have stepped up in assisting with the public response to the pandemic and the public service response. I will make an allocation on Thursday from some of the remaining COVID money. There has been a bid with regard to councils, and I hope to make a proposition to the Executive on that.”
“I would argue that the North/South bodies have probably not been able to get to their full remit for various reasons. Some of us, indeed, have a view that perhaps better, more efficient and more effective North/South bodies should have been created back in 1998-99, but that is another argument. Clearly, they are a joint agreement between this Administration and the Administration in Dublin; they are not singularly a matter for review by this Administration”
“I had a conversation when we started this exercise to outline our view and to take his feelings on some of these. Like the Member, I was a member of the Public Accounts Committee many times and know the questions that come through it. We are very cognisant of their view of what the outcome needs to be. It is well beyond time that we had a long, hard look at some of the arm's-length bodies and what is required in the future.”
“There were something like 116 bodies, £11 billion worth of budget and 135,000 staff. The Member rightly asks whether some of that work can be carried out within Departments. There is no formula for the creation of arm's-length bodies. If you look into them, you find completely different times that they were set up. Most of them, I imagine, come from the direct rule era, when there was an attempt to create some veneer of local democratic input into decision making. The question is, post Good Friday Agreement and devolution, whether that is still appropriate. Of course, we need to look at all of that — efficiencies, effectiveness and transparency — and we have had and continue to have conversations with the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“We need to look at where Department budgets sit, because Departments will not have done the business that they intended to do in the first half of this financial year. We had some returns in June monitoring. We are currently in the exercise of October monitoring, and we will bring a position to the Executive and the Assembly in the next number of weeks. We will see how Departments spend the money that they have. Some will have additional challenges because of COVID; others will have money that they would have spent but will not be able to spend because of the pandemic and the way that things have closed down. In the first instance, we need to look at our resources and see what we have before we decide on further interventions.”
“In the first case, we will want an assessment of what Departments have spent. In answering an earlier question, I discussed the money that I was able to allocate in response to COVID-19. We have spent a significant amount, and there will be further allocations this Thursday. There is, hopefully, sufficient money in Health to meet the challenges that it faces — perhaps more than a sufficient amount. So we need to look at that.”
“The Executive are rightly considering the impact of COVID-19 as they make allocations, first, in response to the pandemic and then to aid our economic recovery. Alongside that, the Executive have considered all the other pressures faced by Departments in the context of the resources available, and allocations were made in the June monitoring round. In that round, Departments were given extra flexibility to reallocate budgets, and that will again be the case in the October monitoring round. The additional flexibility will assist Ministers to respond dynamically to the impact of COVID-19 in their respective Departments.”
“Increased cooperation and collaboration between government and local government is a very good thing. <BR /> <BR />As I say, ultimately we are about providing better services to the public, and we are both in the same place in that regard. Therefore, the Member's suggestion could be timely. I would certainly support reviewing the powers of local government. However, that is not part of the review of arm's-length bodies.”
“I am afraid that that is not within the remit of this investigation. We do not consider local government to be an arm's-length body, as it has a degree of autonomy. Broadly, responsibility for the management of local government lies with the Department for Communities. <BR /> <BR />However, the Member makes a fair point. Big changes have been in place for some time in local government, so it is, perhaps, an appropriate time for the Executive to look at the powers that have been transferred to local government to see what has worked and what perhaps has not worked. I am always open to the idea of transferring further powers to local government. Local government has had an opportunity to step up to the plate in response to the pandemic, and I think that it has done so very well.”
“As I say, the retention of information policy is a Civil Service-wide one; it is not the Department's. It was adopted by the Civil Service some time ago when, possibly, one of the Member's colleagues might have been Minister of Finance. That is the policy that pertains today. It is my view that the Department is transparent and accountable and, of course, responsive to the Committee. It has always been my position in the Department that Committees are entitled to information that they request and that such information should be provided in a efficient and effective manner.”
“I agree with the Member that the purpose of the review was to improve efficiency and effectiveness, and it has already identified emerging themes in the area of governance, including the regulation of boards, relationships with sponsorship officials, accountability to Ministers and regular reviews. We are considering all those issues. The outcome should be better public services delivered more efficiently, more effectively and more transparently. That is the overarching principle, and we want to see that achieved. As I say, work is ongoing and is progressing very well, and it is my intention to bring the report to the Executive in the not too distant future.”
“<BR /> <BR />The second stage will involve looking at the rationale for the arm's-length body and considering whether the functions that it carries out can be delivered in the Department itself. Does it require political impartiality? Does it have a technical function that would be inappropriate for a Department to carry out? Are there overlaps with other ALBs? Has it outlived its purpose? Should it be abolished? Does it have sufficient transparency to the public about its activities and could that be improved? <BR /> <BR />That work is progressing well, and it is my intention that it will be brought to the Executive for consideration in the near future. It will include proposals for the rationalisation, efficiency and effectiveness of arm's-length bodies considered in the review.”
“The Executive agreed to a review of arm's-length bodies (ALBs), which, again, is a commitment in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. That committed us to carrying out a review of their efficiency and effectiveness, with a view to their rationalisation. The number of arm's-length bodies being considered is 116, with a total cost of approximately £11 billion and an estimated staffing complement of 135,000. <BR /> <BR />We have initiated a two-stage review. The first stage is about gathering background information from Departments on the bodies themselves: the budget; the staffing; the functions; internal and external board members and their remuneration; frequency of meetings etc; details of what the ALB has achieved and when it was subjected to a review, as well as the conclusion of that review; and where the ALB is located.”
“The remits of the fiscal commission and the fiscal council have yet to be decided, but, yes, we want to make sure that both can do the jobs that we expect of them. <BR /> <BR />On the other matter of the legislation that is going through Westminster, of course, he will know that the Executive are divided on that. We in the Executive have very different views on Brexit in its entirety but in particular on that Bill. I share the concerns that the Member has expressed. It is on the agenda for my discussion tomorrow morning with the Scottish and Welsh Finance Ministers. I know in advance that they share the same concerns that we have about the implications of that Bill for devolution. There will be an opportunity tomorrow for us, Wales and Scotland to agree a position and to make that position together to the British Government.”
“Similarly, that is another piece of work that we had undertaken to do when we came into office in January, and it is another piece of work for which, unfortunately, the time frame has slipped, as is the case for work in a lot of other Departments, given the emergency that we were faced with during the COVID pandemic. Similarly, we are back looking very actively at the fiscal commission, at agreeing its terms of reference, at who might be on that commission and at how they might be appointed. We want to make sure that the fiscal commission can look, as they have done already in Wales and Scotland, at what other tax levers and financial levers the Executive might request to be transferred to here so that we can have much more control over our spending power.”
“If we get the right council in place and give it the right remit, hopefully, the two things will coincide, and they should have roughly the same time frame, but, as I say, we cannot exactly say when either of them will happen.”
“I do not think that the two events are necessarily linked. As I say, we have been told that there will be an autumn statement or an autumn Budget event in London. That could happen as late as November; sometimes these autumn statements have even run into December. We are not in control of that timetable, to be quite honest. Our intention is to get the fiscal council up and working properly, with the right people appointed and the right terms of reference. There is a linkage with the British Government in doing that, because they have a role in it, so that process is not entirely of our making. As I say, we have no control over trying to time that with what emerges from Whitehall in the autumn.”
“We are now on a cycle that has been interrupted by the response to COVID. We are trying to deal with the additional money that was moved across, trying to spend it quickly, get it out there and make sure that it is properly audited and accounted for. Following the spending review that has begun in Whitehall, I hope to be in a position, in the autumn, to announce multi-annual budgets. Then we will have greater clarity and advance sight of how Departments will spend the money, and that will allow Committees, the Finance Committee and others, to apply the appropriate level of scrutiny to Departments.”
“I agree that we have all lost time as a consequence of COVID. If the Member questions Ministers from all Departments, there will be work that we had all envisaged doing, particularly work related to NDNA commitments, of which the fiscal council is one, that has suffered a time lag because people have been so busy trying to respond to the challenge of COVID. We are picking that up, and will do so at pace. It is important, though, to get it right, to get the right powers and terms of reference for a fiscal council and to appoint the right people to it. We do not wish to delay any further. We want to get this done. It is a commitment that I intend to fulfil, but we need to make sure that it is done correctly. <BR /> <BR />Of course, among the difficulties, we have been on a cycle of annual budgets.”
“My officials began examining the options for establishing a fiscal council earlier this year, but work did not progress as intended, given the need to focus on the immediate COVID-19 response. However, my Department is now actively refocusing on the issue and consideration is being given to what the council's terms of reference might be and how members could be appointed. I will be able to provide a further update once the work has been sufficiently advanced.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, I agree with the Member that we need to target that, and we will continue to raise that question with the Treasury. My intention is to have more direct engagement, perhaps over in the Treasury, before the end of the month, if it can be arranged. I will continue to engage with my Scottish and Welsh counterparts; indeed, I will be speaking to them in the morning. We continue to sing off the same hymn sheet about the need for a continuation of that scheme.”
“As I said in an answer to Mr Humphrey, the continuation of that employee retention scheme, commonly known as the furlough scheme, is one that I have raised with Treasury on many occasions. I argued that it is premature to bring it to an end in October. Of course, there are particular sectors where, we have argued, if the Treasury is not to continue wage support in full, it should certainly look at specific sectors that will continue to struggle in these conditions. Even with a partial reopening of the economy, or an attempt to reopen it as fully as can be, there are sectors that will continue to struggle. We have seen unemployment numbers dramatically increase. That is evidence already, before the end of October, of the impact that there will be.”
“As I said, in settling pay policy, I give flexibility for Departments and public bodies to meet this, and I encourage them to meet the living wage foundations: a living wage that is above what might be considered the national living wage.”
“My answer is yes we should. This policy is part of an NDNA commitment, which all the Executive parties signed up to. The living wage is, of course, a commitment where the Executive have an obligation to set a standard. The vast majority of civil servants are paid above the living wage but, nonetheless, there are the public bodies, which we can encourage along that route as well.”
“When setting public-sector pay policy for 2020-21 at the beginning of this month, I required all public bodies to actively consider how pay awards can be targeted to ensure the payment of the Living Wage Foundation's living wage. My officials will shortly begin to engage with each of the Departments to examine the practical implications for the public sector in taking that forward.”
“One of the associated frustrations with how Brexit has been handled in London is that we have no clarity yet about the shared prosperity fund. That view is shared by colleagues that I speak to in the Scottish and the Welsh Administrations. We had expected some degree of certainty. The Executive have a very clear view on lost EU funding that the commitment to replace like with like and their desire to be in charge of designing the programmes and distributing the money for them is shared right across the Executive. We continue to press the case on Whitehall, but, as yet, we have had very little clarity on how much the fund might be and how it might be operated.”
“If the Member's idea of selling the Union is to say that we are and will always be dependent on handouts — those handouts are particularly from a Government that Members on the opposite Benches have accused of betrayal on a number of occasions — putting your eggs in that basket to advance your argument for the Union is rather weak. Of course, we are taxpayers, and we received a share back, as the Government in Britain has distributed COVID response money. I can get him the breakdown that he wishes, but if I was a neutral in this argument, which I am clearly not, the idea that we will get handouts and that we are and will always continue to be dependent is not one that will sell the Union to me.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clearly, to abruptly end the furlough scheme at the end of October is premature, and I made that representation to Treasury on a number of occasions. I wrote on behalf of the Executive a week or so ago to reinforce that view, again on behalf of the whole Executive, and to argue for an extension to the furlough scheme, and I have spoken on a number of occasions, and will be speaking again in the morning, to the Scottish and Welsh Finance Ministers. Collectively, we will make that point to Treasury as well.”
“Yes. I have had discussions with Treasury about the furlough scheme. I have made no secret of the fact, probably, that I think that it is premature to end the furlough scheme in October. When it was originally envisaged back in April, which is when I think that it came in, people clearly hoped to be well beyond the COVID experience by the end of October, but, quite clearly, given the experience here and in Britain in the last number of weeks, COVID is going to be with us for some time and we may well experience a resurgence. We had figures shared with us today, I think, to say that the number of people who are on the unemployment register has doubled in the last while. I notice that a lot of that has been attributed to young people who are becoming unemployed.”
“I understand that there has been some movement on that between the First Minister and the deputy First Minister, the Economy Minister and the Infrastructure Minister. Rather than allocate it, we have decided to hold back a certain amount of money to be able to deal with some of those sectors that have missed out thus far. The bulk of the money resides with the Health Department at the moment, and once we determine whether it will be able to spend all of that, we will know whether that is catered for or whether there will be more returns to the centre for further distribution.”
“<BR /> <BR />Obviously, the Health Department is, quite rightly, preparing for the distinct possibility of a second surge of COVID and for what will be required to meet and manage that. It has other challenges to face, then, as a consequence of the COVID experience, in the other health services that it provides. We are working closely with the Department to examine whether it will need all of that money or be able to spend all of it and, if need be, whether it can be surrendered and spent on other Executive priorities. <BR /> <BR />It is my intention, then, to bring a paper to the Executive on Thursday, which will allocate the bulk of the remaining money that the Member identified. However, some will be held because, as he will know, we have yet to agree as to how we will support some sectors.”
“I cannot attribute the level of funding that the Member does to the employee retention scheme. Of course, there is also a scheme for self-employed people, from which about 78,000 people benefited. We do not have the exact figures for that. I know that the Member is extrapolating, but the figure that we were allocated for the Executive to dispose of was £2·2 billion. The Member is correct; perhaps not that figure in total but in the region of £600 million is with the Health Department and was allocated as part of its COVID response. We are working with the Health Department to ascertain how that will be spent, because it has to be spent within this financial year.”
“With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I wish to group questions 2 and 6. The Executive has received £2·2 billion of funding from the Treasury as part of its COVID-19 response.”
“A significant amount of work has already taken place but we want to ensure that confidence in the working of this institution is restored. The experience of the RHI debacle has deeply dented confidence in that working, so the recommendations and the actions that flow from the inquiry and from the work being done by the RHI subcommittee need to be done — and be seen to be done — in a way that restores public confidence.”
“The RHI report and the outworkings of the inquiry are about restoring confidence and about ensuring that the things that caused the RHI scandal are not done in the way they were before, so that we can ensure that there is a different way of approaching things. There is a huge number of lessons within that, so it is important for public confidence that it is seen that the recommendations from that report are implemented in a timely fashion with urgent actions attached to them. <BR /> <BR />We have already undertaken and implemented some of the recommendations; some of the work began before the inquiry had even reported. I am not sure whether the Member was on the working group prior to the Executive being reformed, in which the five parties were already looking at some of the issues and making recommendations.”
“If a person is, indeed, appointed in the next couple of days, that person, from what I have seen of the shortlist, will be a permanent secretary, so they will be very much cognisant not only of the outworkings of the RHI Inquiry but the Executive's clear view in accepting the Inquiry's recommendations and undertaking to implement those recommendations and the work that has been done to date on the various codes. <BR /> <BR />Of course, there is a wider piece of work, as the Member mentioned, around the reform of the Civil Service, and that is something that will fall to my Department. We have already started that work and we have begun discussions with senior civil servants in that regard. I intend to bring that work forward to complement the findings and outworkings of the RHI Inquiry.”
“<BR /> <BR />Obviously, work was done on the ministerial code and the special advisers code, and that has been published and adopted by the Executive. We will analyse that work and the work that has yet to be completed as per the NDNA commitments and the inquiry recommendations that the Executive have agreed to accept in full and to implement. As I said, the intention is for the subcommittee to sit again in October and to bring out a report before the Christmas recess.”
“As I said in my initial answer, the subcommittee met in July. It is an Executive subcommittee and is made up of a number of Executive Ministers. Work had already been undertaken in advance of the conclusion of the RHI inquiry. There has been a review of risk management across the Departments by group internal audit and fraud investigation services; a revision of guidance for project management; an initiation of a project delivery profession within the NICS; an NICS people strategy; a review of business case and expenditure approvals; an initiation of reviews into record management policy and the electronic management system; a review of whistle-blowing; the institution of a more senior grade for the role of private secretary; and new practice guidance for private offices. All of that work began in advance of the subcommittee sitting.”
“I have no difficulty in supplying the Committee with information that it has asked for, and we have supplied it with information that it asked for. I am, of course, happy to comply with any of the guidance and regulations in the ministerial code of conduct or the code for special advisers.”