Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“He is absolutely entitled to do so, and I support him in doing that. I support his challenge in relation to austerity and other matters, but he has to be accurate when he speaks about that. <BR /> <BR />On Mike Nesbitt's points, I am old enough to remember Mike Gibson. He was a very classy full back, as I recall.”
“There are difficult challenges to be faced by any Executive. Obviously, we have to act on the basis of health advice. The vast majority of our businesses are small enterprises that employ very few people. They are not multi-property stores. They are not huge businesses. The vast bulk of the businesses that we have in this part of the world are small businesses. <BR /> <BR />The fact is that Mr Carroll is not correct. The fact is that the last Executive did not spend 10 years begging for a reduction in corporation tax; it was part of a one-off agreement at Stormont House. The fact is that the heath workers' strike pay is not being held up by the Executive. I allocated that money to the Health Department months ago, and it has not been paid by the Health Department. As I say, the Member can present the politics that he wants to present.”
“I will just finish this point, and then I will give way. The Health budget, the budget that is going through Communities for vulnerable people and the Education budget far outweigh the money that we have given to given to Economy. If he thinks that it is his responsibility to present unacceptable politics, and I congratulate him on that, he has a responsibility to present accurate figures. <BR /> <BR />I will give way on that point.”
“Setting aside the furlough scheme, which was done by Westminster, was for workers and probably outweighs all that we have spent —.”
“It is fair enough if he thinks that he would not like to see the Executive put their hands in the pockets of businesses, but he is quite content for Tories such as Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and all those characters to put their hands in the pockets of businesses here and decide what to do with it in order to give tax breaks to their friends over there. He is content for that to happen. <BR /> <BR />Gerry Carroll again raised questions. He made the point that he is not here to present acceptable politics. I absolutely get that, and he should challenge as much as he wants to, but he also has to present accuracy. When he says that the Executive have spent much more on businesses than we have on workers, that is not true.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recognise that there is a challenge in the scrutiny of the monitoring rounds because you have a bidding process coming in very late from Departments, and that money has to be turned around within a certain time and allocated. The Committees have an ability to ask departmental officials for details on spending areas in not only the Budget allocation but in the monitoring round allocations. While that does not, perhaps, allow the entire Assembly to do that prior to a monitoring round, it can nonetheless be carried out by Committees. <BR /> <BR />He is also an opponent of fiscal power.”
“<BR /> <BR />If we can get this all spent by the end of the financial year, and we have the bulk of it spent, we will spend £2·8 billion on top of the budgets that we already had to spend. That is a significant challenge. To get schemes out in the middle of that, with people off work, working from home and all the disruption that that brings is a significant challenge. <BR /> <BR />I agree with him and with Paul Frew about the challenge role of the MLAs. He does not have to do this, but some people try to present themselves as being opposed to the decisions that the Executive make while not recognising that, in fact, their party in the Executive voted for the very decisions that are being taken. Absolutely, there should be a challenge function in Committees and in the Chamber, but people cannot ride two horses at the one time.”
“He referred to one business that was in touch with him, but he also has to recognise that we were able to turn schemes around in days to get them out, albeit there were delays in getting the data to get the money paid, and that under previous Executives those schemes would have taken months to turn around and get out the door. There has been a degree of nimbleness and a responsiveness, certainly in some Departments. Undoubtedly, a five-party coalition has made that more difficult, but I can look at the Scottish Government, which have a single-party government, and see that they have some of the same difficulties and criticisms that we have about getting support out on the ground. Wales is the same. In the South, a three-party coalition is having its difficulties. That is not unique to our system of government, to be quite honest.”
“The later it comes, the more difficult it becomes for us to do our consultation exercise that we want to do in order to afford effective scrutiny to next year's Budget. That did not happen this year, and we recognise that. The later it is that that amount is revealed to us, the more compressed that consultation exercise becomes. <BR /> <BR />Jim Allister raised a number of points. He criticised the need to be nimble. I agree with him. This emergency has highlighted that. In certain circumstances, it has highlighted weaknesses that we probably always knew were there.”
“No Department gets the allocation that they want. A 19% increase in capital with an almost 10% increase in resource and £180 million given to it over this year on top of that is a substantial amount of money for any Minister to be going along with. You then get to the question of what they decide to do with that money and how they prioritise that. <BR /> <BR />John O'Dowd raised questions about the certainty that we want for next year's funding envelope. He knows that we will continue to press the Treasury for that amount. We are waiting on the outcome of the comprehensive spending review. It should have happened over the summer, but it has been pushed back into the autumn.”
“I agree that every Department is challenged. The £15 million was, I am sure, welcome to NIW. However, the Department for Infrastructure has had an increase of almost 19% in its capital budget this year, which is substantial. It is for the Minister to prioritise how to spend that within her Department. I have no doubt that she is challenged. John O'Dowd remarked that the Infrastructure Minister had said that it was no secret that her Department does not get the allocations that she wants.”
“We have been working side by side on those. Propositions for both are well worked up, and we intend to bring them forward very soon. <BR /> <BR />Matthew O'Toole raised questions about borrowing. We have not yet utilised the RRI borrowing in 2020-21. It can be used only for capital expenditure, and the current assessment is that the existing capital budget will be sufficient for Departments this year. He will know that we lost at least the first quarter — arguably, the first six months — of construction. If we asked to borrow but were unable to spend the capital that we have, questions would be asked, but we will continue to monitor that position. <BR /> <BR />I thank Pat Catney for some of the points that he made in relation to the Department, and, indeed, the work of the Committee. He asked about NIW and its funding.”
“Those two things compete: strategic, long-term planning; and ensuring that you spend the additional tranches of money that come at you unexpectedly. I have no doubt that, if I stand here on 1 April talking about money that we have returned to the Treasury, there will be a litany of criticism of the Executive. That is not an excuse; it is a recognition of the circumstances. I agree that, in the longer term, we need budgetary plans attached to an agreed Programme for Government. That is why we have argued, as the Member knows, for multi-annual Budgets that will fit with more long-term, strategic planning. In the circumstances that we find ourselves in, it has been practically impossible to do that. I agree, as I have said to him on many occasions, that we need a fiscal commission as well as the fiscal council.”
“Sometimes, we learned from the media that we were getting additional money. Had we had this debate this time last week, we would have been operating on the basis that we had £100 million set aside to spend. Within two days, we have £500 million set aside. Matthew O'Toole argues for much more planning and foresight — a strategic approach. I am not complaining about the additional money; I am happy to have it. The problem of trying to spend it is much better than the problem of not having enough. However, he has to understand, as others do, that that makes strategic planning almost impossible. We want to allocate the money to where it is needed most. <BR /> <BR />After Mr O'Toole had spoken, Mr Muir raised the point that the most unforgivable thing that we can do is have money unspent.”
“That includes a dedicated COVID-19 mental health response plan. There is collective concern across the Executive about that. <BR /> <BR />Matthew O'Toole has just arrived in the Chamber. I had written a series of responses to him. However, he must be a good man for an each-way bet in the bookies. Having outlined all his criticisms of the Executive, he tempered them by recognising all the challenges and the fact that the SDLP is very much part of the Executive, so I had to retreat from some of the areas of contention that I was going to raise with him in relation to that. He recognises that there are challenges. We have now had £2·8 billion of additional spend this year. We did not get that money at the start of the financial year and told to spend it over the financial year. We got it in chunks, unannounced.”
“Again, that issue is common to Scotland, Wales and us. We have pressed the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to agree additional flexibilities, including carrying forward unspent funding and the ability to switch capital to resource. That would allow us to manage our budgets more effectively within our overall funding. It is not about asking for additional funding; it is about managing the funding that we have. We have yet to hear from the Treasury on its consideration of that. <BR /> <BR />Dr Archibald asked a pertinent question about mental health funding. That is a key concern of the Executive as a whole, which is why we supported the establishment of a mental health champion. In June, the Executive allocated £1·5 million for the implementation of the mental health action plan.”
“<BR /> <BR />Dr Archibald asked about the Shared Prosperity Fund. I regret that we still have no certainty about how much that will be. Of equal concern to us is the fact that the legislation being brought through Westminster — I note that it ran into some hiccup yesterday in the House of Lords — seems to give Whitehall the power to decide on and allocate programmes in relation to what would have been European funding. That is clearly not what was agreed or expected not just by us but by Scotland and Wales, and it is a matter of some concern for those Administrations also. <BR /> <BR />Dr Archibald asked about flexibilities, as did other Members, including Pat Catney and, perhaps, Matthew O'Toole and Andrew Muir.”
“We recognise that they, like a number of other sectors, have not yet received support and that a way should have been found for them to receive support some time back. We have given a commitment to try to do that. <BR /> <BR />Dr Archibald raised questions about the funding held at the centre. Just for clarity, as I said, again at Question Time, we had held back £100 million for further interventions, and, as of last Thursday, we have an additional £400 million. That is a significant amount of money. The Executive will want to get down fairly quickly to ensure that the schemes that we have started to roll out get on the ground where they are needed and that other schemes and supports can get out where they are required in the next four months, because that money has to be spent in the current financial year.”
“As of yesterday, over 2,000 payments of over £7 million in support had been issued on the ground, and more will go out today. I am hopeful that that will then start to roll out accordingly. <BR /> <BR />Caoimhe Archibald raised the case of multi-annual Budgets, as did a number of Members. We have had that discussion here on a number of occasions. Members will know not only my desire but the Executive's desire for multi-annual Budgets, given the planning that we wish to do and the certainty that we wish to have about our finances. She also mentioned the issue of those excluded, particularly travel agents. The First Minister, the deputy First Minster and I met that sector a week or so ago, and we have undertaken to do some work with them.”
“In relation to COVID, clearly, the remarks that the Member has made consistently in the last number of debates have challenged the whole approach of the Executive, whose priority is to protect public health and protect lives. Clearly, he considers the necessary, if very difficult, choices that we have made — all five parties collectively in the Executive — as something with which he fundamentally disagrees. <BR /> <BR />Mr Frew also raised the issue of the delay in LPS payments. I accept that there was a delay, and I would have much preferred that the payments were out much more quickly. I answered the question at Question Time. There were issues because the scheme was perhaps not quite as straightforward as the one for the first round of payments. There were other data issues attached to that, but I am told that those have been resolved.”
“I will in a second, if you will allow me to finish my point. <BR /> <BR />That is as well as being somebody who is clearly opposed to the strategy that the Executive are taking in response to COVID. His remarks were not about the current restrictions and getting support out on the ground but about the entirety of the approach to the restrictions. It was in pointed language, but, as I say, that is more to do with a challenge to his party's leadership. The idea that he does not want fiscal powers falls into that category as well. I am happy to give way.”
“Let me finish my point. <BR /> <BR />I remember that, when, as Finance Minister, he was asked about additional fiscal powers for the Assembly, he said, "I don't want any more fiscal powers because I'm a unionist". That, to me, betrays a colonial mindset where you think that people in Whitehall know better than us natives and therefore should take responsibility for our decisions. That is as well as being someone who —”
“Mr Frew's attitude to additional fiscal powers is similar, given his kind of COVID-denying speech here, to that of his colleague Sammy Wilson.”
“As I said — I think that it was during Question Time — I intended to bring a paper to the Executive in the not-too-distant future and had been working on it. Of course, that work, like a lot of normal Executive work, was held up because of the response to COVID issues, but that is clearly the intention. <BR /> <BR />My colleague John O'Dowd took Mr Frew to task on a number of issues, but there is clearly an internal issue with regard to his party leadership being worked out, once again, in his speech. I have no desire to get into that. Suffice it to say that we have given over £428 million to the Department for the Economy to support businesses. Of course, my Department has provided support to businesses as well.”
“I thank all of the Members who have spoken today in the debate and all of those who contributed to earlier debates. We have had a number of debates on the Estimates and at the earlier stages of this Budget Bill. I have listened with interest, and, while I do not agree with all of the arguments that were presented, it is useful for me, as Finance Minister, to hear those arguments. There are points that have been made that I would like to come back to. <BR /> <BR />A number of people mentioned the fiscal council; indeed, Mr Allister questioned the need for it. The fiscal council is part of the NDNA agreement, so it is a five-party Executive agreement that we will have a fiscal council. Therefore, as the Minister responsible, it is my obligation to provide a fiscal council, and that is what I intend to do.”
“I think that we need to ensure that we do that. We have had a range of issues raised with us, including support for isolation and for people who are forced to be at home over the winter and some additional fuel payments and things like that. I think that there are a range of issues that can be met. From that, we need to ensure that that money is spent, because, as always with this place, the greatest sin is in returning money. Sometimes, that does not lead to the right type of planning or long-term strategic thinking, as the priority is just to get that money spent. There are a lot of challenges out there in society. We need to identify where they are, and the primary thing is to get money to support people quickly. We have four months to do that, and I think that we should be attempting to do that very quickly.”
“As I said, we have yet to have another monitoring round to reallocate Executive budgets. This time last week, we were discussing the £100 million that the Executive had held over in a prudent fashion to meet any unforeseen challenges or any repetition of some of the current challenges that we face. That is now almost £500 million. That is a significant amount that we have to ensure is spent before the end of the financial year, on top of the budgets that Departments already have. That is a challenge, and I will talk to Executive colleagues about it this week.”
“I am party to the Brexit discussions that the Executive have every week. There will clearly be a cost from the implementation of the protocol and a cost to businesses as they try to meet whatever new requirements there may be. Those are not factored in and have not been calculated yet. I share the Member's point: we have been taken into a situation against our democratic wishes. The British Government have said that we will be better off as a consequence of leaving the European Union. I, as Finance Minister, have yet to see much evidence of that. We should do our best to identify not only the cost to the Executive and the loss of funds from Europe but the cost to businesses and other sectors of society of trying to cope with the abrupt exit from Europe, and we should present those to Treasury.”
“We want to identify all those. The priority is making sure that we can implement the protocol and that the effects of Brexit are as reduced as they can be, although we know that they will be bad, no matter how we reduce them. However, there are costs still to be bottomed out in terms of a loss to Departments. We also have no certainty about the Shared Prosperity Fund, what it will look like or how it will be delivered. It is unacceptable that, at this stage, we are still seeking answers to those questions.”
“We have gathered from a number of Departments the cost of the protocol. Primarily, they have to do with some of the arrangements at the ports from DAERA, but there are other costs. We have recently had confirmation from the British Treasury that it will accept the costs that the Department of Finance presented to it. <BR /> <BR />Of course, as we look through budgets with Departments, there are an awful lot of other costs associated with Europe that we do not necessarily identify. They are not about the implementation of the protocol and do not cost individual Departments huge amounts, but, added together, they are significant. Outside the big headline figures for the European social fund and others, such as the agriculture funds, there is a range of smaller costs for Departments for which Europe has provided support over the years.”
“I assure the Member of that. I absolutely understand the difficulties for businesses. I hear from them; I am an elected representative, the same as everybody else. The intention is to get that money onto the ground as quickly as we can. As I said, there have been hold-ups in the verification of other sources of data, but that seems to have been addressed. The scheme has been rolling out and gathering pace ever since those issues were addressed. I absolutely understand the necessity of that. If there are extensions to restrictions for some businesses, we need to ensure that the payments go out; people are struggling to keep their businesses afloat. We have set aside money to support them; we need to make sure that that money gets to them as quickly as possible.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not have the detail of how many have applied to the Department for the Economy schemes, for instance, or how quickly that money is getting out. The detail that I have provided relates to the scheme that is being managed by LPS.”
“It is not happening as fast as I want it to, because more than one set of data is required. The initial roll-out of support through Land and Property Services (LPS) was much more straightforward, because it happened across a range of business premises. The business support scheme is specific to some sectors: hospitality and close-contact services. There have been over 11,300 applications for support. Almost £8 million has been paid out so far to 2,290 businesses. About 300 applications have been identified thus far as not meeting the criteria, and that number will probably grow as assessments continue. The initial hold-ups with data processing and getting the correct data from other sources seem to have been addressed, and I now expect the payments to roll out much more quickly.”
“In the first instance, how a funeral will operate is dictated by whoever certifies the death and how that is done.”
“Primarily, the responsibility for that when someone has died lies with the certifying doctor. The job of the statistics agency is to transfer that into data. In the initial circumstances, the certification of death identifies how a person has died. I agree with the Member: these are hugely sensitive issues. The death of a relative is difficult enough to cope with without the additional pain of the restrictions affecting how the death is dealt with by the family and how funeral arrangements are made. It is very challenging for a lot of families. It has to be done as sensitively and accurately as possible, but not just one element is involved. There is the recording of the data and the transferring of it into statistical arrangements.”
“I want to ensure that NISRA, which does that statistical work here for us, is as on top of it as it can be, because I recognise that there is a sensitivity for families if someone has been incorrectly identified as having died of something when that is not the case. I know that NISRA is conscious of that complexity and sensitivity, and we need to ensure that that continues as we go forward.”
“NISRA continuously ensures that its statistics and processes are as up-to-date as possible. The Member will be aware that it is a difficult area, because there are people who die from COVID and there are people who die with COVID. There are people who maybe had a terminal condition and acquired COVID while being treated for it. It is a complex area. The issues that are identified on a death certificate have to be followed through on so that there is statistical representation. It is a complex and sensitive area. <BR /> <BR />Undoubtedly, COVID is a new experience for our Health Department and for statistical agencies, and trying to develop a response to it has been challenging. I am not surprised that issues have arisen in other areas.”
“It is £3 billion, actually. Procurement has an overarching function for the entire Executive and giving advice to public bodies generally, so any policies that the Procurement Board adopts will be decided by the Executive and therefore will apply across Departments. It is one thing to have policies agreed and the Procurement Board pursuing them, but it is about implementation and making sure that Departments follow through, right down through all levels of their responsibilities and those of their arm's-length bodies, and, indeed, influence other public bodies. There will be a key focus on those policies but also on implementation to make sure that that is carried through.”
“It can be used not only to stimulate economic growth but in social value, and we want to ensure that that is a key part of government procurement and that of all public bodies.”
“We have put forward propositions for the Procurement Board. It had intended to meet recently, but, because the proposals to revamp the Procurement Board were put in place, we need to seek additional personnel to go on to that and to change the make-up of the Procurement Board. Clearly, social value is a key part of that, and procurement can be used as an effective tool in achieving social outcomes. We have had discussions with them, and I know that the procurement people in the Department have been working on policies in relation to that. If the time frame allows it, we will also consider legislation, if that is required, in the next year before the end of the mandate, to enforce social value in procurement. Procurement by the Executive is a huge amount of money.”
“As I say, there already is a scheme in the Department for Communities. There are finances available, and I have said to Executive colleagues, including the Communities Minister, that, if additional support measures need to be brought in to assist people in isolation and assist with compliance, I am happy to consider them. As of last Thursday, we have additional money, and I think that compliance will be a key issue over the next number of months. I agree, and I will support any proposition that assists people in isolating and ensures that they can afford to do so.”
“We want to ensure that that is as good as it can be and that, when we get to this crucial stage of the year when compliance will be more important than ever, we assist people in complying. It is not just a matter of enforcing things; we have to provide assistance to do that.”
“Under the leadership of Deirdre Hargey, before she went off with illness, further developed by Carál Ní Chuilín in the Department for Communities, there had been an extension of support for those who have to isolate. Financial support packages have been discussed at almost every Executive meeting. The issue of compliance is clearly about people following the message and following regulations, but it is also about people being able to do that. If we have a situation where people who are required to isolate cannot afford to do so or the consequences of that become difficult for them and their families, the Executive will need to make sure that we provide sufficient support. The Department for Communities has been focused on that, and there is already a support mechanism there.”
“The issue of a non-appointment was in TEO, and I know that it is looking at interim measures. I want to see a head of the Civil Service appointed as soon as possible. We obviously have to look at the process in the interim and then look for a more permanent replacement at the head of the Civil Service. I hope that that will be done as quickly as possible.”
“The two issues are linked. They are part of the broad NDNA commitments to reform the Civil Service. I have been developing propositions on Civil Service reform, and I hope to bring a paper to the Executive in the not-too-distant future outlining a process for initiating a very wide-ranging reform of the Civil Service.”
“It will include proposals for the rationalisation, efficiency and effectiveness of the arm's-length bodies that are considered in the review.”
“The Executive agreed the terms of reference for the review on 18 June 2020. It is a two-stage review. The first stage is about gathering background information from Departments, and it is complete. The second stage is desk-based in the Department of Finance and involves looking at the rationale for an arm's-length body and considering whether the functions that it carries out can be delivered in the Department. Does it require political impartiality? Does it have a technical function that it would be inappropriate for a Department to carry out? Are there overlaps with other arm's-length bodies? Has it outlived its purpose? Should it be abolished? Does it have sufficient transparency to the public on its activities, and could that be improved? That work is almost complete and will be brought to the Executive when it is finalised.”
“First, I agree with his outlook on sport and, specifically, Armagh GAA. The commitment to Casement is an Executive commitment. It is a flagship project. It is a key project commitment, and I expect the Executive to live up to that commitment. I will certainly play my role in helping the Executive to live up to that commitment.”
“I do not disagree with his last point on investment. Where we can get capital programmes done, they contribute to economic recovery. The funding for 2021-22 will be allocated as part of the Budget. As yet, we are not aware what our Budget will be for 2021-22. We do not know the funding envelope that we will have. While we have been able to have preliminary discussions with Departments on their budgetary requirements, we will not be able to allocate an actual spend until we know that amount ourselves. When we are aware of what we have, we will be able to take decisions on how we spend it.”
“We are dependent on the comprehensive spending review and on getting as early as possible an announcement from the Treasury on what our budgets look like, and then we will be able to finalise discussions on what is required for all programmes.”