Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“I have to say that, from my perspective and from my understanding from talking to officials, there is no correlation between funding for the two. Clearly, any increase in the regional stadia programme has happened as a consequence of things that are beyond the control of the people who are providing regional stadiums. Issues have held up the delivery of that programme, and that was, obviously, not planned for by those who were developing the plans. I have not had discussions on that. I have had a preliminary meeting, as I have with most, but not all, other Ministers on budgetary matters. We cannot really decide how we allocate budgets until we know the amount that we are getting.”
“We need to try to develop as much money as we can for sport. Sport makes a positive contribution, and we need to ensure that facilities and supporting arrangements for sport are as well funded as possible.”
“I want all sports to be adequately funded. Sport is hugely beneficial to young people in particular and to society in general. You can see the effect that the inability to attend football matches and other sporting events has on society. <BR /> <BR />I disagree, absolutely, with his contention that the funding of the GAA has disadvantaged soccer. Take, for example, the number of council pitches that have been built for soccer as opposed to GAA over the years. As a lifelong member of the GAA living in a rural area, I know that any provisions for GAA that were made over the years were funded by GAA members, not by the state, Departments or council funds. GAA members funded the vast bulk of those provisions themselves. I do not think that it serves the debate well to try to get into comparative figures as if this was a political issue.”
“Neither my officials nor I, in my current role as Finance Minister, have had any specific engagement with the Department for Communities to discuss progress on the funding for the subregional stadia programme for soccer. It will be for the Department for Communities to initiate engagement at an appropriate time.”
“I am afraid that I do not have those details at the moment. The Member will know that this involves a range of Departments and a number of council areas. I know that councils have been working up proposals for some of their projects and having discussions across the Belfast city deal area about the complementary fund and what might flow from it. I do not believe that any bids for that have been received. I am sure that councils are aware of it. He will know that any bids must complement the city deal projects, and councils in other areas will be looking very closely at what they can bid for. The process of allocation, or the consideration of allocation, from that complementary fund has yet to be developed.”
“The city deal partners in Derry City and Strabane are working closely with officials to progress a deal to head of terms. The deal equates to £210 million. It combines city deals and includes future funding with equal contributions from the Executive and the British Government. It is a welcome investment in the north-west region, especially at this time. I will meet shortly with south-west councils to discuss the proposals attached to the funding that they have for the deals that reflect those council areas.”
“Our clear intention, however, is to drive those schemes on and get them completed as quickly as possible. As part of our discussions on economic recovery, we recognise that city deals are a key component in stimulating economic activity, construction jobs and all of the benefits that flow from major capital projects. There is a strong desire in the Executive to progress the projects, and we will continue to monitor and focus on that, as will the Department for the Economy, which has been one of the major players in city deals and will work with our council colleagues to make sure that we do not experience any undue delays.”
“The Member will know that a number of Departments and councils are involved in those projects, so there are a lot of moving parts.”
“The Belfast region city deal is finalising a number of outline business cases in preparation for signing deal documents. Local partners and Departments continue to work closely to achieve that. I am fully supportive of the city/growth deals initiative, which signals our desire to build a productive, regionally balanced and inclusive economy, and will provide investment and much-needed jobs in local areas, offering hope for the future.”
“The Executive are responding all the time to try to get that money out quickly and to get support to where it is needed. It has not been ideal, albeit the funding itself is very welcome. <BR /> <BR />Those are the conversations that we have been having regularly, more specifically for here on Brexit issues and the spending that we require for that.”
“We will have specific asks for the Treasury. We have been raising the issue of payments to cover the protocol for Brexit, the loss of funding here as a consequence of leaving the European Union, and the replacement of all that. Those are specific to here. <BR /> <BR />We have common positions with Scotland and Wales on a lot of these issues, and we have quite a lot of dialogue with the Welsh and Scottish Finance Ministers. We have been developing common asks on flexibilities, early sight of the comprehensive spending review and early information on what our funding envelope will be for next year, all of which are essential for planning. <BR /> <BR />While Barnett consequentials have been very welcome over the past year with additional money, they have come with little or no notification and very much as a drip feed.”
“Work on a fiscal commission and a fiscal council, which was part of the New Decade, New Approach (NDNA) commitments, had been slowed as a consequence of the overall Executive response to COVID. That work continues, and I hope to be able to bring a paper to the Executive in the very near future with propositions for a fiscal commission.”
“We are yet to come to the end of the budgetary phase. We have to go through another monitoring round in January in terms of reallocation, so it is really later in the year when you realise that. <BR /> <BR />What we and the Finance Ministers in Scotland and Wales want to establish is the principle that we have a small percentage of the Budget that can be carried over and that that be extended. We may not need to use it all. We may have the ability to spend out everything that we require, although, with the additional COVID allocations this year, that will be a challenge. With the experience of COVID, that will be a challenge for departmental spending, but it is about establishing in principle those conditions that allow us to carry over. <BR /> <BR />We have not as yet identified which Departments may need that or how much they may need.”
“I have been pressing the Treasury to agree to a suite of Budget flexibilities for the Executive, specifically, the ability to switch from capital to resource; a loosening of restrictions on how much the Executive can carry forward from one year to the next; and for a pragmatic approach to budget overspends. <BR /> <BR />With the Finance Ministers from the other devolved Administrations, I raised that issue again with the Treasury on 21 October. The Treasury is still considering the request, and I will continue to press for a positive outcome.”
“No, not as yet. My understanding is that work on the costings is ongoing. There has been a huge variation in some of the public expression of what the costings might be, but we have had no detail on that. The absence of a discussion with the Northern Ireland Office in the middle of all this is not assisting in the development of that process.”
“What the Member outlines is another extension of the unsatisfactory nature of the way that the scheme has been developed and taken forward by the Northern Ireland Office. I was part of the discussions at Stormont House to reach an agreement on that. Those were not easily done, and the agreement required a lot of accommodation by all five parties. The fact that the British Government unilaterally took off in their own direction and substantially changed that agreement is unsatisfactory. Their handling of it since they did that has compounded not only the political problems that they have created for all the parties in the Executive but the problems for the victims. I hope that they address all those issues in the very near future.”
“As I said in my original answer, we have requested a meeting with the Secretary of State. It was the Northern Ireland Office that created the policy. It differed and departed from the agreement that the parties had reached at Stormont House. Under its rules and statement of funding policy, those who create the policy and legislate for it are responsible for funding it. We have been trying to have a discussion with the Secretary of State. Even though the request came from the First Minister and the deputy First Minister, alongside myself and the Minister of Justice, we have yet to secure such a meeting, but we will continue to pursue that.”
“My engagement in the case has been with the NIO, because, in my view and in line with the statement of funding policy, it is for the Department that has constructed the policy to deal with funding in the first instance. I and other Ministers have raised that issue with the Secretary of State on a number of occasions and will continue to do so. A request was recently made to the Secretary of State by the First Minister and deputy First Minister to meet with him, alongside myself and the Justice Minister, to discuss the matter. He has yet to agree to a meeting. However, I am determined to pursue the necessary funding.”
“A number of schemes have been put forward. As I said, my Department received £35 million for the scheme that I just talked about, and that is to get money on the ground for hospitality and people in close-contact services who have business premises, because it is based on the property model. Sixty million pounds is being held centrally for Economy to roll out schemes for other people in close-contact services and other hospitality support. I look forward to seeing the details of that and early applications for it. Of course, given the discussions that we are currently having and the possibility of an extension to the restrictions, the Executive will consider and act very quickly to get further support to anyone who has been affected by the restrictions.”
“That is not happening as fast as I want it to happen, but it is going out. I am told that there have been over 11,300 applications and that those are being worked through as quickly as possible.”
“My Department is responsible for rolling out the Land and Property Services (LPS) scheme. The issue over the last number of weeks has been the fact that, in earlier schemes, the entirety of businesses were getting support, which is when we were operating off the LPS database. When it is restricted to hospitality that means that a differentiation has to be provided, and that requires additional data from other sources, such as council environmental health sources, to differentiate between what is a shop as in retail and what is a shop as in a hairdresser, beauty salon or various cafes and other aspects of that. That is how they are characterised by LPS, and that has added another layer of difficulty. As of this morning, £7·84 million has been allocated from the scheme to over 2,290 businesses. The money is being rolled out.”
“I think that the first priority will be to spend the money that we have. As I said, we were operating, until last Thursday morning, on the basis that we had set aside an additional £100 million to look at unforeseen circumstances in the rest of the financial year and that has now been bumped up to almost £0·5 billion. The priority will be to spend that. We have, along with Scotland and Wales, been pressing the Treasury for, in principle, flexibilities around borrowing, carry over, the conversion of capital to resource — all those issues. We have not yet had confirmation of any agreement on all that. However, I think that the Executive's priority will be to spend the money that we have and to look for, in principle, flexibilities around a range of other matters.”
“If we had had a full sense of the entire £2·8 billion at the start of the year, it would have allowed us to plan much better, but we have been on a drip feed. <BR /> <BR />The greatest sin of all is not spending some of the money. Of course, there will be a challenge ahead. We learned only last Thursday that we have an additional amount of money. We were holding some back. Along with some of the other areas that I have outlined, that amounts to roughly £0·5 billion that we need to spend in the time ahead. I want to see schemes brought forward, money on the ground as quickly as we can possibly get it there, and that money being directed where it is needed. Of course, as I said, Health has already taken a share of the money, which it has said that it needs for the rest of the financial year.”
“Some £600 million was ring-fenced for Health and held for a time — probably since the end of the summer and into early autumn — and Health was assessing how much of that it could spend. It has come back to the Executive in the last number of weeks to say that it will spend, roughly, £524 million of that. That left an additional amount of money, then, to go into a central pot for the Executive. All of that money was allocated in the last week or two, with £100 million being held in reserve in case further interventions were necessary; the Executive considered that prudent, and it was my recommendation to them. We learned only last Thursday that we have an additional £400 million. I am partly drifting into today's debate on the Budget Bill, but we have been getting a drip feed of allocations, which we are trying to respond to.”
“COVID-19 continues to present many challenges, and the Executive will consider how to best use that £500 million for targeted support in the coming weeks and months. <BR /> <BR />In addition, the following funding is also held centrally: £0·4 million is being held for transfer to the Department for Transport in England for the ferry operator scheme; £6 million is being held pending the finalisation of the bus, coach and taxi support scheme; £22·9 million is being held for further sectoral support and for any unforeseen PPE requirements; and £60 million is being held pending the Department for the Economy's development of COVID restrictions business support measures.”
“Following the October monitoring round, the Executive held £100·6 million in reserve. Last Thursday, 5 November, the Executive were informed by Treasury that we would receive an additional £400 million.”
“First, it is not a matter of the Executive's being insistent: the work informing the RHI subcommittee was conducted by the five parties over a long period, in which the Member's party was a participant. The recommendations that the Executive and their subcommittee are following through come from that area of work, in which the Member's party was a participant. If the Member is advocating a different approach with regard to legislation now, that is a departure from what his party had agreed all along on the matter. <BR /> <BR />I have no idea whether anyone has been referred, or has referred themselves, to the Commissioner for Standards.”
“No, there is no relationship between the two issues at all.”
“There was a commitment to bring the RHI scheme to a close. Of course, that is the responsibility of the Department for the Economy. I know that the Minister for the Economy has brought discussion of the issue to the Executive on a number of occasions. Like, I am sure, many other Ministers, I share an ambition to see the scheme closed. Of course, there are outstanding issues to be addressed as a consequence of that, and I look forward to hearing the Economy Minister's propositions for them.”
“With regard to the panel's work to look into the disciplinary process, some of those cases have been concluded, some have been stayed, either due to legal action or ill health, and some are ongoing, with their time frames to be confirmed. I am limited in what I can say about that process because there is ongoing litigation that seeks to challenge it. As I said, four cases have been heard and concluded, four have been stayed, either due to legal action or ill health, and two are ongoing. Legal correspondence has been received in respect of one of those cases. Therefore, as I said, I am very limited in what I can say in relation to them. Nonetheless, I would like to see them concluded as quickly as possible. I hope that whatever legal issues are involved are resolved as quickly as possible to bring this chapter to a close.”
“In line with the NDNA commitment, the Executive subcommittee on reform was established to consider the recommendations of the RHI report in full and to oversee their implementation. The subcommittee met for the first time in July 2020 and was scheduled to meet again on 5 November. That meeting was postponed and will be rearranged in the coming weeks. <BR /> <BR />The report's recommendations have been brigaded under seven key themes, and at the next meeting the subcommittee will hear from each theme lead. The leads will outline the significant work that has already been done and present for approval an action plan detailing the work ahead. The Executive subcommittee plans to bring a full report on the actions taken and proposed for each recommendation to the full Executive and Assembly before the Christmas recess.”
“As the situation develops further and the Executive make further decisions, as is likely, on the allocations of resources, I will bring these back to the Assembly through the spring Supplementary Estimates and a subsequent Budget Bill at the end of the financial year. <BR /> <BR />I wish to express my gratitude once again to the Finance Committee, which acknowledged the unique circumstances in which we found ourselves this year and agreed to accelerated passage. I thank all the departmental scrutiny Committees and, indeed, all Members for the level of scrutiny that they have been able to bring to this process. <BR /> <BR />To conclude, this is the Final Stage of the legislative process for this Bill. I now look forward to hearing any final thoughts from Members on this important legislation.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill provides the legislative authority for that expenditure. I remind Members that, as well as authorising the expenditure in this current financial year, the Bill regularises the excess expenditure incurred by some Departments in the 2016-17 financial year, which came about because it was not possible for the Assembly to pass the spring Supplementary Estimates at the end of that year. <BR /> <BR />My Department has continued to engage with all other Departments to ensure that the Executive have an up-to-date picture of the pressures that they face and how the available resources are being used.”
“<BR />Almost £200 million has been allocated to the Department for Communities to support those most disadvantaged in our communities, as well as to provide support for the voluntary and community sector and the sports, arts and culture sectors. Over £180 million has gone to the Department for Infrastructure to ensure that our transport networks can continue to operate, including not only Translink but also our airports and seaports and our taxi and private coach and bus industries. The allocations to Infrastructure are also supporting Northern Ireland Water as it adapts to the changes in demand from its customers and consumers. Almost £180 million has gone to the Department of Education to support our schools and to continue to safely deliver education for our children and young people and to provide free school meals.”
“We are continuing to plan and respond to the situation, and Members will be aware that I have made a series of announcements over the past seven months as the Executive have agreed further allocations. <BR /> <BR />My most recent announcement on the outcome of the October monitoring round on 29 October brings to over £2·3 billion the allocations that have been made to Departments by the Executive. That includes almost £1 billion of additional in-year funding for the Department of Health to ensure that our doctors, nurses and other medical staff have the resources that they need in the fight against this health emergency. It also includes over £428 million to the Department for the Economy to directly support businesses and the further and higher education sectors.”
“Today's Final Stage debate concludes this part of the legislative process for the 2020-21 financial year. As I explained at the Second Stage debate, following the unusual step that we had to take by passing a further Vote on Account before the summer, the financial position now allows us to pass this Budget (No. 3) Bill together with the Main Estimates, which were agreed on 19 October. This provides the legislative authority for the expenditure of the Departments and other bodies for the remainder of this financial year. <BR /> <BR />The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic has meant that financial circumstances this year have been unprecedented. The Executive have acted quickly to provide funding, not only to deal with the health impact of the pandemic but to respond to the economic impact.”
“We were given late notice, and, characteristically, it did not give the full detail that is required. We will have to hammer that out with the Treasury over the next couple of days. We are already engaging with it on that, because it is important, as I am sure that the Member will agree, to have clarity for employers and employees alike.”
“Those within that sector who qualified for furlough from before the end of June qualified up until 31 October. The furlough scheme continued up to that date. Then they moved onto job support. From last week, there was an improved job support scheme, but that has now been overtaken by a continuation of furlough. We are still trying to get more detail in relation to that. The Member will accept that that is not ideal when it comes to planning or in ensuring that there is clarity for workers and employers. We are now told that people who were on the PAYE roll up to midnight on 30 October can qualify for the scheme. That may, as we understand it, fill the gap for people who were employed over the summer so that they can be furloughed. <BR /> <BR />There is more detail to be hammered out.”
“We do that in the best interests of all of the people who we represent, collectively.”
“However, that has to be balanced against the fact that people are dying as a consequence of this pandemic. <BR /> <BR />We have a responsibility to protect public health, to protect people who are more vulnerable to the pandemic than others and to make sure that transmission is kept down within the community. That is a balancing exercise between taking the necessary steps to do that and ensuring that society, businesses and the economy can continue to function as best as they possibly can. That is a constant challenge. It is a real challenge in the Executive. There are no easy decisions to be taken. My colleague across the Chamber will verify that we have grappled with this on many, many occasions, debated it out and, eventually, have come to decisions that we have all attempted to stand over.”
“There is a range of challenges and, arguably, damage to society as a consequence of the pandemic, and a lot of that is economic. That is why a lot of these schemes have been put in place and why we are discussing the furlough scheme today. It has been an essential component in mitigating the damage caused by the economic downturn and the restrictions that had to be put in place over various times. <BR /> <BR />There is also societal damage; we recognise that. All of the interaction with our families and communities is very much part of our everyday life and what makes us human beings. The ability to interact with others is a key component of what we are. That has all been damaged and affected. Of course, we want to see society being able to move forward as much as possible.”
“<BR /> <BR />Regardless of us coming out of our restriction period in two weeks' time, we will continue to argue for the furlough scheme to continue to operate. The economy is not back to full operating level, and it will not be possible to get back to full operating level. Social restrictions will still apply, and that will make it more difficult for hospitality and retail, in particular, to do business. There will be a continuing need, in the economic uncertainty, for the furlough scheme to remain. It is not necessarily linked to any extension of our restrictions, but there is a need for the extension of that scheme because of the damage that the economy has seen over the last number of months. That is why we have continuously argued for that, and I will continue to press Treasury for an extension in the time ahead.”
“The restrictions were brought in before there was a job support scheme. There was the continuation of furlough for the first half of our four-week restriction period and then the job support scheme beyond that. Clearly, you have to take cognisance of the economic impact on workers and businesses that restrictions are going to have and try to mitigate those as best you can, because the restrictions are absolutely necessary to suppress the virus, protect the health service and save lives. That is the reason we do this. The extension of the furlough scheme will not have any real bearing on that, albeit it continues to protect workers in a better way than the job support scheme, so it is a better level of protection.”
“I made the point — I made it at the Executive — that while we are in the second round of support for some businesses, it is grossly unfair to people who have not yet received any support. Every effort should be made, and I have encouraged Executive colleagues from all the Departments with a responsibility to make every effort to ensure that they put together some measures to provide support to those who have continuously lost out since the start of the pandemic.”
“The Member will probably know from previous statements that I have made in the House that, as well as the money that we allocated last week, we had always held back a sum of £55 million for groups that were excluded. I am very pleased that, at long last, the needs of some of those groups, such as taxi drivers and coach operators, are beginning to be addressed. I know that there are some issues with those schemes, but there is, nonetheless, some move to address those needs. Other sectors, and those who are self-employed, have been left out. Schemes have opened, and I sincerely hope that those schemes will be able to address the needs of those people. <BR /> <BR />We held aside a sum of money for those who were previously excluded.”
“<BR /> <BR />From my experience, the Executive do not want to have any level of restrictions for one minute longer than is absolutely necessary. Of course, it is much better for businesses if they can trade, but in the absence of their being able to do that, we need to get as many support packages to them as we can.”
“We are continuing to bottom out with the Treasury whether there will be further Barnett consequentials as a result of the most recent announcements, and I hope that we will find out more information about that this week. We are not certain whether that is the case, but we continue to explore that with the Treasury. <BR /> <BR />Of course we want to see businesses back working, but, as the Member knows, we have to strike a balance between ensuring the suppression of the virus and allowing people to go about their normal activities. While we have had restrictions here, they are not at the same level as those in England: all our retail is open and not just essential retail as is the case there. Schools — it is timely for the Education Minister to come into the Chamber — were closed for two weeks, but they open again today.”
“As I said, I think that the date at which people were previously cut off was the end of June. Those employed in the hospitality sector over the summer season, in particular, fell through that gap. We are told that people who are on a PAYE payroll by 29 October are eligible. That came to us very late in the day on Friday. There is much more detail to be worked through, and officials continue to engage with the Treasury. As soon as we get more accurate information for employers and employees, we will make it public. Clearly, this is a time of great distress for people, and they should understand the schemes. Welcome as the schemes are, they have come in a very haphazard way to us, and that does not give certainty to people who face redundancy or who are trying to run businesses.”
“We continuously press that case with the Treasury, because only it can do those schemes.”
“Our arguments with Treasury have been over trying to get it to recognise that workers, and low-paid and part-time workers in particular, have been at the front end of that. It has particularly affected those in the hospitality sector, which tends to employ a lot of people in low-paid, part-time work, and there are a lot of women working in that sector as well.”