Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“Support will not be at the level that we were able to provide with the additional COVID money during the pandemic, but we will continue to try to support the businesses that continue to struggle as we emerge into, hopefully, full economic recovery.”
“The two Belfast airports and City of Derry Airport were included in the rate relief measures, and that was a recognition of their huge economic importance to the regions that they serve. We are looking at further rate relief in the new financial year. Of course, those businesses will have benefited so far from a two-year rate relief. Obviously, thankfully, business is starting to return again, although we are still a long way short of where we want to be. We still have some journey to get out of the pandemic completely. Yes, of course we can look at rate relief packages across a range of businesses.”
“I proposed that the Department for Infrastructure and the Department for the Economy, together with my Department, work together closely to deal with London and Dublin to get all the support that we can to ensure the long-term security of City of Derry Airport.”
“I absolutely agree with the Member. It is a key and integral part of the need to rebalance our economy and ensure that our infrastructure, including airports, roads and rail, allow the north-west to maximise its potential. For too long, the north-west has not been able to do that, so I am fully in agreement about that. I also agree that the work is across a range of Departments. My Department stepped up, as it did on a number of issues during the pandemic, to provide support to airports. However, various aspects of airports relate to the Department for Infrastructure and the Department for the Economy. There is no overarching Department with responsibility for airports.”
“The Department for the Economy is responsible for and has been leading discussions locally on public service obligations for City of Derry Airport. Nevertheless, when I met the British Transport Secretary, Grant Shapps, on wider airport issues last summer, I raised the issue of which London airport the Derry flight might use. More widely, my Department is working with the Department for Infrastructure, which is assessing a business case and funding proposal made by the airport. The current London PSO and any potential PSO for a Dublin service will be important elements of future operations at City of Derry Airport.”
“On that basis, it is important that the required technical changes are applied to devolved schemes here to the same timescales, and, in the circumstances, the LCM provides the most pragmatic solution to achieve that.”
“The pensions are paid from annually managed expenditure (AME), and, as a consequence, cost control policy for the devolved schemes is expected to reflect that maintained by Treasury for those equivalent schemes. Adopting the proposals for devolved schemes is, therefore, necessary to maintain that approach. To do differently could lead to divergent valuation outcomes at the 2020 and subsequent valuations. That could have implications for available block grant funding if additional funds were needed to cover shortfalls in circumstances where devolved schemes costs could exceed the comparable cost control profile for the equivalent schemes in Britain.”
“A more stable mechanism means that changes to member benefits or contributions become less likely. The proposed reforms thus help to provide greater certainty regarding members' projected retirement incomes and the level of contributions. The LCM will ensure that the devolved schemes implement that economic check in the same way and to the same timescales as the equivalent schemes in Britain and in line with the overarching requirements of Treasury cost control policy for all such similarly constituted public service schemes. <BR /> <BR />Although they are technical changes, it is important that their impact is understood. The design of the devolved public service schemes here is broadly identical to that of equivalent schemes in Britain.”
“However, working symmetrically, that will apply equally to benefit increases or contribution reductions if the long-term economic outlook has worsened. It should also be noted that the effect that the economic check may have on the mechanism is limited in that it cannot cause or contribute to a breach but only prevent or offset one. <BR /> <BR />The additional cost control amendments to the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill technically fall outside the scope of the original LCM agreed by the Assembly on 1 November last year to allow the measures in the Bill to remedy age discrimination in public service schemes to extend to here. The changes can be expected to make the cost control mechanism for public service schemes more stable.”
“Secondly, an economic check will introduce a new step in the valuation process to validate any cost cap breach before any resultant scheme changes can be implemented. The introduction of the economic check will mean that the impact of a change in the long-term economic assumptions will be considered in the cost control process and will be able to offset any ceiling or floor breaches that would otherwise occur. The economic check will be based on official long-term forecasts of GDP growth and will take into account changes in the long-term earnings assumptions. That means that there will be a higher bar for member benefit reductions or contribution increases if the long-term economic outlook has improved.”
“Under that approach, the cost risk of legacy schemes will pass to the Exchequer. The legislative consent motion (LCM) will ensure that that approach is also applied to the devolved schemes here.”
“Changing to the reformed scheme-only design would remove the effects of the pre-reform legacy schemes from the cost-cap mechanism. The Government Actuary had identified that the changes to those legacy scheme costs were the main driver for the cost-cap floor breaches indicated by the 2016 valuations. The reformed scheme-only design will ensure consistency between the set of benefits being assessed and the set of benefits potentially being adjusted for the future. That will make the mechanism more stable and reduce intergenerational unfairness, as comparatively younger members' benefit contributions will not change on the basis of the cost of the pre-reform legacy schemes, to which they had little or no access.”
“That raised concerns that the mechanism was not operating in line with its original objectives, and the Treasury commissioned the Government Actuary to review its operation. The Government Actuary's report recommended a number of changes to the mechanism to address those concerns. Following a consultation that included stakeholders for the devolved schemes, the Treasury laid amendments to the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill on 6 January to implement two of those changes. The changes will come into effect for the 2020 valuations, which set the employer and employee contribution rates from April 2024. <BR /> <BR />I will summarise the two main changes. The first is the reformed scheme-only design.”
“It is a fundamental feature of the cost control measures that were agreed by the Assembly as part of the 2015 public service pension reforms contained in the Public Service Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2014. The mechanism assesses changes in costs for each scheme. If costs decrease or increase by more than a certain percentage of pensionable pay — currently set at 2% — compared with the original level, action is taken to bring the costs back to target. <BR /> <BR />The original intention was that the CCM would be triggered only by unforeseen and unpredictable events. At the 2016 valuations, however, it was observed that projected valuation outcomes indicated breaches at the cost-cap floor and increased costs for employers.”
“The cost-cap mechanism (CCM) for public service pensions was introduced as part of the 2015 pension reforms, both here and in Britain, in line with the recommendations of the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission. Two of the main objectives of the mechanism are to protect the Exchequer from unforeseen costs and to provide stability and certainty for members in relation to benefits and contribution levels. <BR /> <BR />The cost-cap mechanism determines how costs of public service pension schemes are shared between the schemes' employers and members. It is tested at scheme valuations, which take place every four years, and affects how future employee and employer contribution rates are set.”
“There is broad satisfaction with how those terms of reference have played out. I expect that we will draft legislation for an incoming Executive and Finance Minister to take up early in the next mandate. I look forward to seeing that. <BR /> <BR />As I have said, the passing of the Bill is a small but necessary step in the review of financial processes. It will ensure that the information presented in the Estimates, accounts and Budgets is more transparent and easily understood. I welcome the enhanced scrutiny of public finances that those improvements will inevitably bring. I ask Members to support the Bill.”
“As people have outlined during the passage of the Bill, there is much more to be done in that regard. Of course, the Fiscal Council is an important device in all of that. It made a welcome contribution in its report on these matters in the autumn. I fully agree that bodies like it and the Fiscal Commission will add to the public understanding of how public finances work and improve the quality of debate. <BR /> <BR />As regards putting the council on a statutory footing, the Member will know that I am keen to move that on quickly. Of course, we are running up to the end of the mandate, and we had to ensure that the terms of reference for the Fiscal Council were workable and agreeable not just for us but for the Northern Ireland Office, which also had input into them.”
“I thank the Members who contributed to the debate, many of whom did so at earlier stages of the Bill's progress. A couple of issues were raised. The Chair of the Finance Committee raised the issue of the memoranda. It is envisaged that an Estimates memorandum will be included in the 2022-23 Main Estimates process, and officials will work with the Committee on that. Work is ongoing on that in the Department now. In the next couple of weeks, we will update the Committee on how that is moving on. <BR /> <BR />Maolíosa McHugh and Matthew O'Toole made the important point that the Bill is a step — it is just a step — towards greater transparency, which is required across our financial processes. I have long been an advocate of that. I am glad that we have been able to pass the Bill.”
“I look forward to hearing final thoughts from Members.”
“There are significant misalignments in how the financial information is presented in each of those documents, making it difficult for the Assembly and the public to understand the links and interrelationships between them. The Bill deals with one aspect of the misalignment by amending the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 2001 to allow the Department of Finance to issue directions for the way in which Departments prepare Supply Estimates to include the spending of designated non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs). That will enable the expenditure of NDPBs to be included in the Estimates and accounts of the Departments that control them, to align with the Budget that the Assembly approves. <BR /> <BR />I once again express my gratitude to the Finance Committee for the scrutiny that it has brought to the process.”
“Today's Final Stage debate concludes this part of the legislative process for the Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill. This technical legislation is necessary to allow the review of the financial process reforms to be implemented as planned in the 2022-23 financial year. The review of the financial process is designed to provide greater transparency and understanding of the financial information that is presented to the Assembly and to the public. <BR /> <BR />Three main systems impact on the control and presentation of government expenditure: budgetary controls and Supply Estimates, which are presented to the Assembly for approval; and resource accounts, which are prepared by Departments at the end of each financial year.”
“I am happy to try to include them in the hospitality scheme that we have rolled out. That will be a decision for the Executive on Thursday. If there are other sectors, whether the supply chain sector, travel agents or others, who have sought support in recent times, it is up to the Department that has responsibility for them to make the case for that. If that is done, I am happy to recommend to the Executive that support be provided.”
“<BR /> <BR />As for the other schemes, it is the responsibility of whichever Minister has policy responsibility for those matters to bring forward a case, be it for travel agents, who have been supported in the past — I am happy to look at a case for them now and into the future — or, indeed, hotels. I only received, over the weekend, material on support for hotels. I intend to bring a paper to the Executive this Thursday to try to include hotels in the hospitality scheme that the Department of Finance has put together. We do not have the information. The Department of Finance has the addresses of all those business premises, but it does not have the information on what support they need. It is up to the Department that has policy responsibility for that to bring forward a case. I now have the one for hotels.”
“A bid was made in the October monitoring round to assist Northern Ireland Water with its energy costs. That was partially met because, in that monitoring round, we had twice as many bids as we had money available to allocate. We tried to juggle that to give people a certain amount to keep them going until January, with the intention of revisiting it. Of course, as the Member knows, energy costs, which are outside the control of the Assembly, continue to rise, and that created a pressure before January monitoring. That is why, as well as bidding for £55 million for the home heating support scheme, we included the money that was required by Northern Ireland Water for the increase in its energy costs. Of course, the bids for it have now been met in full.”
“I am happy to support her if she does that.”
“The Member obviously missed the £55 million scheme to assist people with heating bills. There is money in this to assist people in the time ahead. We will have discussions with trade unions and others about pay awards into the future and will try, within the constraints of the budgetary outcome, to see whether we can give the maximum pay awards possible. As I said earlier in the year, we have made the Executive a living wage employer to assist people who are struggling. The Department for Communities in particular and others across the Executive, including mine, have taken measures to support ordinary working families who continue to struggle, and I know that the Communities Minister would like to expand the scheme to assist people with their heating bills over the winter, if that is possible in the time ahead.”
“There were extraneous factors, as well as late returns from Departments, but, as I have said repeatedly here, if Ministers identify a need to support people or businesses in other policy areas for which they have responsibility, I very much welcome bids for additional funding and am happy to recommend those bids to the Executive.”
“Tory austerity is a fact, and it has impacted on our public services and continues to do so. The reason that we are having such a debate about the next three-year Budget is that, in order to prioritise the Department of Health, we have to squeeze other Departments, and we have to do that because the outcome of the spending review was not what we wanted. <BR /> <BR />Of course it is disappointing when Departments surrender money later in the year than they perhaps should have done, but we had £100 million for COVID and the outbreak of the omicron variant, and that money came very late in the year, as the Member will understand. With some of that money, we had no certainty around whether we could spend it, and we got that certainty only very close to the January monitoring round.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Department for Communities is looking at other issues, and, if resource is available towards the end of the financial year, it may be able to step in and see whether it can make good use of that money in other areas. I am happy to work with the Communities Minister in the time ahead to make sure that we do not end up with unnecessary returns to Treasury at the end of the financial year.”
“I will try to explain some of the schemes, but it is not my area. My understanding is that the Bryson House scheme was for people who were in immediate danger of having their services cut off because of their inability to pay. It was a limited scheme. When it came out in advance of the £55 million scheme, a lot of people tried to access support from it but were more suited to the much larger scheme. It is my understanding that that put severe pressure on the system in trying to respond to people, and I hope that it is now clearer that the larger scheme will provide support by reaching a significant number of people.”
“Essentially, I have responsibility for managing what comes back. However, I cannot dictate to Departments how they spend money or whether they return it early; all I can do is exhort them to do so. I will certainly put my mind to it, and I hope to get cooperation from across Departments to ensure that we spend what we need to spend, do not return any money unnecessarily and carry over the maximum amount that we can so that we can assist next year's budgets.”
“Each Department has a responsibility for its own budget and a significant degree of autonomy. As part of the Good Friday Agreement and the infrastructure of this institution, Ministers are given a significant degree of autonomy within their own Departments. I am not making any proposal to change that. <BR /> <BR />What I want, as the Finance Minister, is to get early indications from Departments if they are not going to spend out their allocations. It is much better if we have an early sense of that, so that we can put together other schemes or make sure that the spending is done in a way that is effective and can reach areas where it is badly needed, including some of the areas that the Member mentioned. When Departments surrender late in the year, the difficulty for me is in finding a way to manage that.”
“The short answer is no. I have not heard from the Health Minister about that. I do not, as a matter of course, go to Departments and suggest issues that they should fund. What I do say to them is that, if they have something that requires funding in-year, particularly now when we have resources available, I would be happy to hear from them. I would be happy to hear from the Health Minister or, indeed, any Minister, if there is a particular issue that they want funding for in the next number of months.”
“I am happy to work with all Ministers, including the Economy Minister, to do so.”
“I am happy to get together with any Minister who wants to bring forward a proposition. I have said to them time and time again and continue to say to them that, if they have a proposition for a sector that is struggling — I have heard, as he has heard, from many sectors that continue to struggle — I am happy to make a recommendation to the Executive on that basis. They have to bring it forward to me; I cannot reach into a Department and do that.”
“Treasury has never given any indication that it is willing to move that, but we will continue to press for it.”
“Yes, they are. The last meeting was held the week before last, perhaps. It was a quadrilateral engagement with the Scottish and Welsh and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. We have consistently raised that issue across each of the devolved areas because there are often late allocations from Treasury and it is a challenge to spend them. While many deserving schemes will welcome some support, even if it is late, trying to spend at the end of the year in a rush is not the best way to manage money. The Member will know that from his experience in the Executive. Yes, we consistently raise the issue. It is a small amount: we can carry over only £27·5 million of capital and about £105 million of resource. We continue to press for that.”
“We are straying from the January monitoring round to the next three years' Budget, but, whatever the outcome of the climate change Bills that are proceeding through the Assembly, it will be a matter for the Department to prioritise according to the budget that it gets. The next Agriculture Minister will have the authority in his budget to prioritise according to the needs that he establishes for the Department.”
“The Executive and Assembly will have to take that decision in the time ahead, and it will dictate what the Budget will be in future years.”
“The consultation on the multi-year Budget is out, and people can respond to it and make their case. One thing that should liberate all of us is that it is for an incoming Executive. None of us know whether we will be here in May, whether the same people will manage the same Departments or which political party will have responsibility for particular Departments. We can approach the consultation by taking the departmental interest out of it. That is why the central question in the consultation is this: are we going to prioritise Health, as we have said repeatedly, and will we provide the funding to prioritise it and begin that transformation? If that is the case, that presents a challenge for all other Departments.”
“Yes, the businesses that have been identified are being contacted directly by Land and Property Services (LPS), but for those that have been established since the previous payments, there is an application process through which they can make themselves known to the Department and make an application. I am sure that that will include people who have not previously had localised restrictions support (LRS) but think that they qualify for that allocation. As well as the Department directly contacting businesses that have previously been supported, there is an application process for those who have come on board since that last payment.”
“I do not think that the council said that it was a loser when it comes to allocations from monitoring rounds. The council was referring to the three-year draft Budget that is out for consultation. As I said, there are ring-fenced resources for the Department of Justice in that that were not identified, which skewed the figures somewhat. When those figures are put in, you get a much clearer picture. <BR /> <BR />All Departments are being challenged. If, as has been stated many times, the Executive and the Assembly's priority is health and if we want to engage in its transformation, other Departments will be challenged more. The Department of Justice is no worse or better off than any other Department.”
“We have to decide whether we prioritise Health and support that prioritisation through allocations to enable the Department of Health to conduct the transformation that is required. <BR /> <BR />There are challenges across all Departments. There will, however, be an increase in spend year-on-year, and it will be up to whichever Minister happens to be in the Department of Justice in the new mandate to prioritise according to the budget that he or she has.”
“How the Department of Justice spends its budget and the prioritisation of that budget are matters for the Justice Minister. I have heard various statements about the level of support. There is ring-fenced money for policing that was not included in some of the recent commentary, and including that would paint a slightly different picture. <BR /> <BR />In one of the last Budgets set by the Executive in 2015-16, the Department of Justice received an allocation that was 4% lower than its baseline, and the overall departmental spend was 0·6% lower than its baseline. If the draft Budget that is out for consultation is agreed, it will certainly have a better outcome than that over the next three years.”
“Project Stratum is the responsibility of the Department for the Economy. Certainly, however, as a rural dweller and someone who represents a largely rural constituency, I am acutely aware of many of the issues that the Member has raised and the need for support in rural communities. Broadband and connectivity are particular difficulties in rural areas, and I assure the Member that they are even more acute for those who live in border areas. I would be happy to support such propositions. Again, however, it will be for the Departments concerned to bring those forward.”
“I am still content to do that if people bring those cases forward. We have been and are running the hospitality scheme, which my Department stepped up to deliver once again. Other sectors out there are struggling, however, and we have all heard from them. Their struggles are not necessarily a consequence of the restrictions. Given, however, the omicron variant of the virus out there, society tended to stay in and not go out as much, which meant a bad Christmas for hospitality and the sectors that support it. <BR /> <BR />We have heard from people who need support. The Ministers with policy responsibility need to bring forward propositions. I would be happy to support those.”
“I am afraid that I cannot answer for individual Departments; I can only give the figures that come back. I can assure the Member that I kept telling Ministers that COVID money is available. We had a significant injection of COVID funding late in the year. If Ministers have policy responsibility for sectors that need assistance, they need to bring forward a case to me so that I can make a recommendation to the Executive.”
“If the returns had been delivered in October, we would have had more time to manage that expenditure between then and the end of the financial year. However, that is a question for MLAs to raise in the Committees to find out why Departments did not surrender in October and came with such significant late returns. Through the Committees, MLAs will want to ask the Departments about that.”
“It is disappointing that, just a number of months after we asked people for returns in October, we had significant returns from across a range of Departments. The tables show the exact amounts that were returned. As the Member is aware, there was real pressure around universal credit, and we can manage and meet pressures if the resources are returned early. <BR /> <BR />When the Department for Communities wanted to bring forward a scheme to help people with heating bills, we asked Departments to indicate in advance of the monitoring round to let us know what was available. We put together a bid and a package for that with the Department for Communities. It is disappointing when people do not alert us early enough, because there are worthy schemes.”
“The additional support for NI Water's energy costs was part of an earlier allocation because we recognised that there was a particular pressure there. The support is included in the monitoring round, but we brought that to the Executive's attention a number of weeks ago alongside the home heating scheme that the Minister for Communities was trying to develop. The bid was made, and that is the amount of support that NI Water identified it needed to assist with energy costs; we met that bid. If there is a particular problem in the time ahead, I am sure that we will hear from the Department for Infrastructure. We rely on organisations to identify what they need between now and the end of the financial year and to bid accordingly. As the Member said, the bid was met in full.”