Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“I thank the Members who spoke for their time and contributions. I welcome the universal desire for financial processes to be made more transparent. That is something that I share with Members. It is an issue that I took interest in and action on when I was on the Finance Committee many years ago, and it is something that I intend to progress and deliver on now that I am Finance Minister. Our objective in all this is to make the job of scrutiny more effective and to make the Committee more able to do that. <BR /> <BR />The Chair of the Committee outlined that the Committee will consider whatever course of action is needed. It is very much entitled to do that, whether it considers placing amendments or extending the period for its scrutiny of the Bill.”
“I notify Members — Finance Committee members will be aware of this — that my Department is looking into a consequential amendment to ensure that the changes made as part of the Bill fully align with the legislation for the establishment of independent bodies such as the Public Services Ombudsman. It is important that their Estimates align with the process while safeguarding their independence, and we will look to ensure that that is the case over the coming months. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is an important first step in allowing a read-across from budgets to Estimates to accounts. I look forward to bringing further improvements to the transparency of public finances in the time ahead.”
“That will avoid a scenario in which bodies are potentially double counted in more than one Estimates process. That is in line with current practice for each of Westminster's Estimates process. Treasury consults with the Executive and other devolved Administrations on each of its designation orders. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is short, with four clauses. Clause 1 contains the key changes that are required to the Government Resources and Accounts Act (NI) 2001 to better align the Estimates and accounts to budgets. I do not intend to rehearse the specifics of each section as they are set out in the accompanying explanatory and financial memorandum. However, I appreciate that there are technical details and am happy to answer any questions that Members may have.”
“That misalignment makes it difficult to understand the links and interrelationships between them. <BR /> <BR />The Bill deals with one aspect of the misalignment. It amends the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 2001 to allow the Department of Finance to issue directions on the way in which Departments prepare Supply Estimates. It provides for departmental estimates and accounts to include the spending of non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) and other central government bodies for which the Department has responsibility, thereby aligning the budgetary treatment of those bodies. The Bill also provides for consultation with the Treasury to prevent the designation of a body funded solely from a Consolidated Fund other than the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland.”
“Go raibh maith agat arís, Príomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. <BR /> <BR />In December 2016, one of the last acts of the then Executive was to agree to the commencement of the review of the financial process. The aim was to simplify financial reporting and better align budgets, Estimates and resource accounts. A number of different systems impact on the control and presentation of government expenditure, including the budgetary controls and Supply Estimates that are presented to the Assembly for approval and the resource accounts that are prepared by the Departments for the end of each financial year. Those different systems and the way in which they have historically been maintained create a significant misalignment between the financial information that is presented to the Assembly and the public.”
“In December 2016, one of the last acts of the then Executive was to agree to the commencement of the review —.”
“I have tried to respond to as many of the relevant issues raised as possible. As always, the debate has been useful, with many significant points raised, and I am thankful to Members for that. It is imperative that the legislation debated here today continue its passage through the Assembly so that public services here can continue to be delivered to our citizens. In conclusion, I ask Members to support the Bill, thereby authorising spending on public services by Departments for the 2021-22 financial year.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the issue of Civil Service pay, I have moved to address the minimum wage issue. We have departed from the approach taken in Britain, which was to freeze pay. The last time that Civil Service pay was frozen here, it did not unfreeze for a number of years, so we have undertaken to give a pay rise over the next two years, which, as I say, is a departure from the approach that was taken in England. I absolutely accept that that is not all that the civil servants wanted; it is not all that I wanted to give to them, but we have to manage with what we have and get such agreements, because they will impact on every Department, through a five-party Executive. <BR /> <BR />A Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle, I will now draw my remarks to a close, you will be pleased to hear.”
“We will continue to press the British Government to meet their NDNA commitments. Unsurprisingly, the ink was not dry on the NDNA document before the funding that had been committed to underpin it was withdrawn by the British Government. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Gerry Carroll that the Government can intervene to support the health service. That is exactly the point that the deputy First Minister put to the Prime Minister last week: if the Government had been able to find money to intervene, they should intervene to support the health service. There is not much point in applauding health workers from outside No 10 and No 11 Downing Street and then reverting to type. I have made many joint requests with Scotland and Wales to the Treasury to change its approach on a range of issues in order to give us more resource.”
“<BR /> <BR />John Blair asked about the NDNA policing commitment. He is right that the bids for quite a lot of work proposed under NDNA have not been met. We had engagement, and, between the initial Budget that we produced and the second one, we managed to find money to allow additional recruitment by the PSNI, which has been welcomed by the Justice Minister and the Justice Committee.”
“The resource budget for the Department for Infrastructure was also increased last year by 9% and by 3% this year. It is a matter for the Department to consider how to prioritise that. <BR /> <BR />Mr Beggs made an impassioned plea about spending on the capital programme. I wish that he had been here 60 years ago and made the same speech. If he had, we might not have had an M1 that turns the wrong way and heads for Dungannon or a university that went to Coleraine instead of Derry, where it should have gone. A number of Members intervened. The consequence of the wrong decisions taken years ago is taking decisions today to try to rebalance things. Much as the Member may rail against it now, I am afraid that his party did not rail against it at the time, and that is why we are in the position that we are in.”
“The Principal Deputy Speaker's patience was stretched, so I do not propose to respond to things that he deemed not to be within the ambit of the debate. However, Mr Beggs and Mr McCrossan mentioned road maintenance and the DFI budget. As I said before, the DFI budget has been increased by 29% on the previous year. That is a record level of investment in infrastructure. It represents about 41% of the total capital funding. The investment in road structural maintenance — resurfacing — is one area for the Infrastructure Minister to consider when prioritising her capital budget. As Mr Beggs said, roads can be resurfaced, which, in many ways, leads to a much better longer-term outcome than jet patching potholes that will reappear within a couple of weeks. That could lead to a reduction in the need for resource spend.”
“However, to get a Budget process and a Budget paper through, I had to bring them through a five-party Executive and manage all the politics of that. <BR /> <BR />I have no wish to keep people longer than necessary. The report on education, 'A Fair Start', was raised by Robin Newton and Pat Sheehan, and that has been shared with the Executive. The cost of implementing it will be about £73·1 million per annum by year five. The decision to provide only a single-year spending review meant that the Executive were able to bring forward a single-year Budget, rather than funding it over the five years. However, I hope that, if we get to a multi-annual position, a report as important as that will receive Executive support for funding for the length of time that it will take to implement it. <BR /> <BR />There were debates about other issues.”
“However, we have received no other propositions for changes to the Budget. <BR /> <BR />All the points about transformation and what is required for Health were well made and well understood. The Executive get it, and, as others referred to, there is agreement to have a specific Executive focus on waiting lists. That may well lead to some reprioritisation, which would alter the Budget. If Departments and the Executive wish to do that, I will be happy to assist in that process. <BR /> <BR />It is not up to me to dictate. When a lot of people speak about what I have done, it is as if I have taken all these decisions myself. I wish that I had that power. If I had, there might be a different outcome.”
“On the one hand, the Member wants me to appoint independent commissions to bring forward propositions; on the other hand, he wants me to try to dictate to them what they will do. I will defend my party's consistent approach across all Thirty-two Counties of this island. We do not have a foot in every single camp in the way that his party has with Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party. The SDLP has that many sister parties that I am not sure how it manages all the birthdays. <BR /> <BR />If people have propositions, they should bring them forward. At least Mr McCrossan had one, which made him unique among Members. He proposed doing away with the high street voucher scheme. He is entitled to make that proposition. Consideration Stage is coming up, and people can consider whether they want to bring forward that scheme.”
“He is at liberty to table amendments at Consideration Stage of the Budget Bill if he, or his party, wants to see the voucher scheme funded under COVID money, but they can see if they wish to bring down the voucher scheme. Of course, addressing the full list of priorities that he outlined would way exceed the money that is allocated to the voucher scheme in one year. I do not think that it would do the job in the time ahead. Nonetheless, as I say, he did bring forward one proposition, and, in that, he was unique among all Members.”
“I lost count of the number of prioritisations that he mentioned, but they included housing, health, infrastructure, farming and communities. It is one thing to tell us all what we are doing wrong; it is another to propose solutions. <BR /> <BR />During the much shorter debate yesterday on budgetary matters, I remarked that if those criticising the Budget have propositions, considering the circumstances of the late allocation, the standstill Budget and there being no time for reprioritisation, I ask them bring them forward. In fairness, Mr McCrossan brought one forward, and he was unique among his party colleagues in that. He suggested that the voucher scheme should be done away with.”
“<BR /> <BR />Not surprisingly, health featured in most people's contributions. That is where the huge challenge for the Executive is, and nobody is ducking that. Daniel McCrossan told us that tough decisions need to be taken, but he did not itemise what those tough decisions are, so I look forward to him or his party elaborating on what they consider to be the tough decisions that need to be taken to provide support for health. He made a speech that was not unexpected, and he is entitled to complain about all the issues that he feels need to be addressed, but it was along the lines of, "Here are all the things that are wrong and somebody needs to do something about them, but I cannot quite identify who or what". He talked long and hard about prioritising and then proceeded to present a long list.”
“I understand that the Department of Education is in the process of defining the terms of reference for the review for commissioning the external consultants in response to recommendations in the 2017 Audit Office report on SEN and in the 2021 PAC report. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members raised the issue of children's mental health. That will involve Minister Swann and, I imagine now, Minister McIlveen. A framework for children's and young people's emotional health and well-being, alongside an implementation plan, was launched recently. I understand that the Education Minister has allocated £5 million from his Department to support mental health and well-being in the education sector and an additional £4·05 million to support nurture provision in schools. The Health Minister added an additional £1·5 million to that on a recurrent basis.”
“We announced allocations on 20 May that included £32·7 million resource and £19 million capital specifically for the roll-out of new laptops. The Member is correct: it is not included in the Budget Bill, as it was only agreed on 20 May. However, it will be picked up in the Supplementary Estimates. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members — Robin Newton, Chris Lyttle and Pat Sheehan — spoke about special educational needs and their very strong desire, which I understand, to make sure that children who need that provision get it. Twenty-two million pounds has been allocated to help schools to prepare for the new SEN framework, to be allocated directly to schools by the Education Authority.”
“Those allocations have now been confirmed by Treasury as part of the Westminster Main Estimates process, and that means that the Executive will be able to confirm those allocations as part of June monitoring, so the overcommitment issue should not arise. <BR /> <BR />He also raised a concern about the in-year monitoring guidelines issued by my Department that have impacted on the Committee's ability to scrutinise the Budget. To clarify for the Assembly: the in-year monitoring guidelines refer to the in-year monitoring rounds that will take place during the 2021-22 financial year. That does not impact the Budget Bill, which is written to the opening 2021-22 position. <BR /> <BR />He also asked about the allocation of laptops for teachers.”
“The targeted end is now 2022-23 for significant improvement in trying to straighten out the approach to all that, which I would welcome. Even as Finance Minister, with a team of people advising me, I would welcome that clarity, consistency and simplicity, as much as that can be achieved when you are dealing with significant financial matters. <BR /> <BR />Chris Lyttle, the Chair of the Education Committee, asked about the overcommitment in the DE budget. It is, obviously, a matter for the Education Minister to make decisions. The items for which the Member explained overcommitments had been made referred to funding from the British Government that had not been confirmed at the time when the Executive's Budget was being finalised.”
“When they criticise it now, as they are entitled to do, I am entitled to point out that the opportunities to apply actual change to the Budget were not taken up by parties, and they have voted for it accordingly. <BR /> <BR />A common theme in all that, and I referenced this when talking about the draft legislation that we will bring next week, is that it is a start to the process. As Roy Beggs continually reminds me, from our experience together on the Finance Committee, that it was a key issue for me when I was Chair of that Committee. An exercise began in 2016. The unavailability of Ministers after that prevented legislation being taken forward. It was picked up again, and the pandemic has knocked it sideways. However, it is intended to be followed through.”
“<BR /> <BR />Matthew O'Toole is still here. He mentioned the notion of robust challenge and scrutiny. I absolutely welcome that. That is what Members are here for. It is what we are all here for. Ministers are here to be accountable. However, the question is about reprioritisation. Yesterday, I outlined why reprioritisation was collectively not adopted by the Executive. When people come to criticise the Budget and say all the things that are wrong with it, my point back to them is that there were opportunities, either in the Executive or when the Budget first came here, for them to vote against it or to make propositions in the Executive to change it, and none of those options was taken up.”
“I understand that the Department for Communities has achieved funding agreements for over 350 jobs across 154 employers, and over 1,800 potential opportunities have been submitted and are being assessed. Those figures are expected to ramp up in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />He and a number of other Members, particularly those who referenced Education, mentioned holiday hunger. Maolíosa McHugh, Pat Sheehan, Chris Lyttle, I think, when he was in the Chamber, and perhaps Daniel McCrossan all spoke on that. The Executive allocated £50·8 million to the Department of Education to fund free school meals during school closures and holiday hunger schemes in 2020-21. The Budget has provided the Department of Education with an additional £32·8 million for the provision of free school meals during the 2021-22 financial year.”
“The incoming Minister for the Economy, should we get to that point in our politics, raised questions, of course, about the centenary celebrations. Perhaps the good news for him is that there is nothing to stop Ministers using their departmental budgets to cover those matters if they wish. The NIO was providing the funding for that. It did not accept bids, but decided to allocate the funding according to how it saw fit. <BR /> <BR />Maolíosa McHugh raised a question about Job Start and expressed his support for it. We agreed to allocate £26·9 million to labour market interventions for the Department for Communities as part of the final Budget, and, of that, £20 million has been allocated to the Job Start employer incentive, which aims to create six-month work placements for young people who are aged between 16 and 24.”
“The limit of accruing resources is voted on through the Budget Bill. Any receipts over and above those that are voted on through the Bill cannot be retained by Departments and must be returned to the Consolidated Fund. He also asked about the legal authority for capital spend. That is voted on through the cash figures in the Budget Bill, which includes the cash to fund capital investment. Planned capital expenditure is also shown in the Estimates document that accompanies the Bill. The review of financial processes, which others spoke about, attempts to make the process more transparent. As part of that, capital would be voted on separately. That was discussed with the Finance Committee during its briefing on the Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill. <BR /> <BR />Other points were raised.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee Chair made a number of points and asked a number of questions. In relation to victims' payments — as I said yesterday and have said a number of times — we have given the commitment, reassurance and confidence to victims that payments will be made when they fall under the terms of the scheme, regardless of where the funding comes from. We have included headroom in the Main Estimates to accompany the Bill to make sure that there is no delay. Of course, we will continue to discuss that with the Government in London, whose responsibility it is, in our opinion, to fund it, as they drafted the proposals, legislated for them, put them in place and departed from our previous agreement on them. <BR /> <BR />The Committee Chair asked about the legal authority for accruing resources.”
“I thank the Members, Chairs and Deputy Chairs who have contributed to the Second Stage debate on the Budget (No. 2) Bill today. It is very useful to hear the views of the Committees and of the other Members on the important financial and economic issues that face us as an Administration, particularly in these unprecedented times. I know that you did your best to keep them on track throughout the debate, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I have noted some of the issues, and, hopefully, I can address at least some of them. I was going to say that I know that people will want to get home, but I understand that we have more legislation to go through this evening, so I do not want to hold my colleague the Minister for Communities back any longer than is necessary.”
“I am happy to discuss at any time the requirement for additional support. We have allocated most of the COVID money that we have available to us. We are not expecting any more to be made available, unlike last year when we received updated tranches over the year. If any of it is not used and is surrendered or if more is made available to us, I would be very happy to look at any urgent schemes for which a Minister might think it is important to tap into that.”
“The Member will know that there was some financial support offered up specifically for those sectors. There was quite a bit of wrangling between a couple of Departments as to who had responsibility for all of that. When Infrastructure eventually stepped up to take that responsibility, finance was made available. It was not all used, certainly not in relation to coaches. At the end of the financial year, we had additional COVID money and tried to get Departments to come back in for more money where it could be used. That was not the case for the Department for Infrastructure in relation to this.”
“Some people were not hugely warm to the idea of a fiscal commission. It is an exercise that both Scotland and Wales have gone through, and a debate and an informed discussion such as that is beneficial to us all. My intention was to assist in a public debate, a debate inside the Assembly and a debate outside the Assembly. Therefore, I want to make sure that any report that it produces is available to the Assembly and the public so that we can have a proper and informed debate in the time ahead.”
“It will be for an incoming Executive to act on that report, but it will inform a debate that will bring us beyond the annual Budget cycle into the future and the opportunities for raising our own revenue.”
“The commission, like the council, is off doing some of its work at the moment. I am sure that the Member, and others in the Finance Committee, will be engaging with it in due course. As he acknowledged in one of his earlier contributions, there are some very experienced and able people involved in both the council and the commission. We wanted to give both bodies the space to engage and establish independence — particularly the council, which has an ongoing remit for reporting — so that they did not just become tools of the Department that do its bidding. From the people involved, the Member will know that that will not be the case. I look forward to them coming back to us with initial findings. The time frame that we have given them for the provision of a report is the end of the year.”
“We also have the economic package that has been supported for the Department for the Economy, including the high street voucher, which will hopefully have a stimulant effect in terms of people shopping in local retail. There is a range of measures, and we recognise that all of that will not, and never could, replace lost earnings for people over the course of this pandemic. However, it is trying to target the finances we were given — limited as they were — as effectively as we can to try to keep people alive in the time ahead until they can get back to full trading and recover their businesses.”
“The businesses currently availing themselves of the £5,000 and £10,000 top-up grants were able to open, but it was a recognition that footfall had been down, for example shops that were dependent on office workers to be in the vicinity to keep them ticking over. Those grants were specifically for businesses that did not get localised restrictions support (LRS) or the Department for the Economy's similar scheme, and the £5,000 and £10,000 top-up grants were made available to them. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the retail and hospitality sectors, and quite a lot of other sectors, will enjoy another full year of rates holiday as well.”
“We will talk to representatives from the multiples in the next week or so to advise them of what we intend to do. I am hopeful that we will be able to devise a scheme that will provide some level of support for them, because they are one of the groups that, while they have had support for one business premise, have not had support for the rest due to owning a range. Therefore, they are one of the groups that have been left out in that sense, and we are determined to do something, if we can, to support them.”
“We have had a number of engagements with what are known as the multiples. It has been very difficult. It has proved difficult in other jurisdictions, and different Administrations have come up with different schemes to provide support for them. It was not possible, with the time frame for rolling out the previous scheme, to include them. At the lower level of premises in particular, it is complex to differentiate them from other schemes. They do not all come under the one banner. They are not all the same business franchise; there are multiples within that. We have asked Land and Property Services (LPS) to look at the possibility of devising a scheme later in the year, once we are clear of all the schemes that LPS is running.”
“I am a keen supporter of all that, and I hope that the Department has sufficient capital to invest all that it wants in supporting sport in the time ahead.”
“Yes, I am all for it. That is why, overall, there is disappointment with the Budget allocation that we got. There was a ray of hope with the capital allocation, which was an improvement, and I am all for putting that into sport. I am a sports fan. In the couple of years when the Executive were not functioning, I represented some of those clubs that tried to access the subregional fund. There was difficulty in distributing it because permanent secretaries were not prepared to take decisions that they thought that Ministers should take. I would love to see that on the ground. I know the benefits that it brings not only for construction jobs but for the much broader benefit to the community and younger people in particular from access to and involvement in sport.”
“Certainly, there was an increased capital budget this time, and it is up to Departments, when they receive that, to prioritise it accordingly.”
“We discussed the Budget process with the Department for Communities pre Christmas when we were waiting, and after we set the initial draft Budget, when we asked what the Department's requirement were. A standstill Budget scenario, particularly for the Department of Communities, which is a big Department with a lot of staff and costs, means, in effect, a reduction. While we had some increase in our capital budget and we gave some Departments an increase in capital budget, I am sure that not all got everything that they wanted or would like to have had brought forward. <BR /> <BR />I do not have specific figures for the subregional stadia programme on what was bid for or what was received. That may be a question for the Department for Communities.”
“That is a question for the Minister for Infrastructure. As I am sure that the Member knows, the business case for any significant road-building exercise is based on the volume of traffic and whether that reduces in the same pattern. While traffic is not back up to anywhere near the levels that it was pre pandemic, people like me who commute daily have noticed a significant increase in traffic over the past number of months. <BR /> <BR />The objective of changing working arrangements is to reduce travel time and carbon footprint. We should, of course, encourage more people on to public transport, and investment in green infrastructure, as the Member said, points to a better way forward.”
“We are looking to a more blended model, which is a mixture of working from home and the availability of the Connect2 regional hubs around the North that I have talked about previously. That will reduce travel time and the carbon footprint. We have to consider the knock-on effect of that on the Civil Service estate. That does not mean the wholesale shutting up of offices in Belfast, but it allows us to consider how to rationalise the estate. The cost of the estate for each Department is a significant one. I hope that there will be savings in the longer term in that regard. It is an exercise that we are well into now. We need to assess the impact on the estate and what the office requirements will be, and we need to try to minimise the costs so that that money can be used for public services instead.”
“The Member hits on something that was a developing question but, as with a lot of other things, has now been accelerated somewhat by the pandemic. What was a growing practice became a necessity for a time, which, obviously, has given us an opportunity. <BR /> <BR />As I referred to in a previous answer, there has been an assessment of the Civil Service survey that was carried out of people's experience of working from home and the costs associated with it. The response has been very positive; people have enjoyed the ability to work from home. I cannot speak for all Departments, but there is a broad sense that sickness levels have gone down and productivity has certainly gone up in certain areas.”
“We will look to legislation to underpin social value. We are trying to get procurement policy right in the first instance. Part of the change that we made with the Procurement Board was to make the adoption of policy an Executive adoption, which gives it an imprimatur across all Departments. My Department's objective is to advise other Departments on ethical procurement. As I said, the further down the supply chain you get across the world, the more difficult it sometimes is to get accurate information, but that should not stop us trying. Where we have a sense that either companies or countries are involved in anti-human rights or unethical behaviour, we should consider very strongly our willingness to spend money on their products.”
“The further you get from where we are, the more difficult some of those things are to measure, with companies that supply companies that supply companies before they eventually end up with us. Nonetheless, there is an attempt to improve what we do in terms of not just value for money, which is important, but our responsibility, as an organisation that spends £3 billion a year, to make sure that we procure in a way that supports human rights, ethical procurement and environmental and social value objectives.”
“We are looking at a range of measures. As the Member will probably know from listening to me previously in the Chamber, we reconstituted the Procurement Board and brought on practitioners, including people from the social enterprise sector. We have been engaging with the community and voluntary sector. There is a sector in my Department that looks at ethical procurement from which we will seek advice. One of the early objectives that we have set ourselves — the Procurement Board will meet tomorrow to consider a paper on this — is around social value, which is about not just job creation but environmental impact, ethical procurement and human rights in the supply chain.”
“We have been challenged, this year, in providing the level of support that it wanted to go into those programmes and projects. Nonetheless, it is incumbent on all of us to try to heal the divisions in society, promote reconciliation and, thereby, reduce the costs of sustaining division.”
“As I have said, it is not a straightforward issue. There is a complexity in determining what can actually be attributed to the cost of division. Of course, one of the ways that we can deal with that is to deal with the division itself: to try to reduce the divisions in society and the policing costs that are associated with it, which are significantly higher here than in other areas, and encourage the reconciliation process that is necessary. <BR /> <BR />We have an ambition to try to reduce that, but it is an ambition for society not just for the public purse, albeit it has that knock-on effect on the public purse. Obviously, we strive to do that as best we can. The Executive Office leads on some of these reconciliation measures.”