Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“I agree with the Member. It is a source of some frustration to me that, a number of months on from when the report was submitted to the Executive, we are still waiting for it to be dealt with. The subcommittee was made up of representation from all parties in the Executive, and the report was agreed by all members of the subcommittee, so I struggle to understand the delay in getting it to the Executive proper and getting it agreed and implemented. I agree with him that the longer it runs on, the more it damages confidence that the Executive will respond to the issues that were raised in the report in a proper and timely fashion.”
“In line with the New Decade, New Approach (NDNA) commitment, the Executive subcommittee on reform was established to consider the recommendations of the renewable heat incentive (RHI) report in full and oversee their implementation. The subcommittee met in July, November and December 2020. Members of the Executive subcommittee agreed a draft report setting out the response to the inquiry and the actions that are required to fulfil the remaining recommendations of the inquiry report. The report was forwarded to the Executive for agreement on 26 March this year. The subcommittee agreed a number of changes to the guidance for Ministers and the special adviser code of conduct in light of the recommendations of the inquiry. They have also been provided to the Executive Office for consideration.”
“That is why the rates holiday was applied to certain sectors of businesses, those that, we recognised, would continue to struggle, particularly in the hospitality and tourism sector. Even if their businesses were allowed to open, the restrictions that they had to operate under would mean that they would do less business. The rates holiday was one way to try to offset some of that, but there was always the recognition that support would never replace the lost trade. It was really just to give businesses a fighting chance to stay open until such times as they came back to full trade.”
“There was always a recognition that, no matter what support we could distribute through all of the grant schemes that we and the Department for the Economy and the Department for Communities administered, it was never going to replace lost trade. We do not have the resources to do that. It was to give businesses a fighting chance of staying in business until such times as we could get back to normal trading after the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />The regulations on what we can do in this regard are set by Health. They determine which businesses should close and which can remain open, and we were not allowed, by law, to assist businesses that were not required to close. We always recognised that, even where businesses were allowed to open up.”
“<BR /> <BR />As far as we can, we have been not only administering the LRSS scheme to so many businesses but using the money that was left over at the end of the financial year to generate a scheme such as this, which will support further businesses. This top-up scheme alone has delivered over £70 million across businesses, with more to go out as businesses apply for it.”
“We have endeavoured to provide support, but we had to do that by regulation. The regulations are brought forward by the Health Department, and it tells us which businesses are obliged to close and which can remain open. We cannot, by law, pay businesses that remained open under the local restrictions support scheme (LRSS) scheme. We are forbidden to do so, so we have tried to find other ways to support those. Included, in my answer to this question, is the £10,000 top-up and the £5,000 top-up, where businesses that could remain open were able to avail themselves of that support. I cannot guarantee that that covers absolutely every business because some businesses were excluded on the basis that they were operating quite well during the lockdown. Some businesses experienced an upturn in trade.”
“We have long recognised that a number of sectors — multiples are one of them — were not able to avail themselves of much if any support over the course of the pandemic. Therefore, we have been striving to find a way or encouraging other Departments to find a way to provide support to those businesses. <BR /> <BR />We have engaged with people who represent multiples over the last while, and we are committed to looking at a scheme that, we hope, will provide them with some support in the autumn. We will work that through with them.”
“To date, the £10,000 top-up payments have been issued to 1,173 businesses that received the £25,000 retail, hospitality, tourism and leisure grant last year. The total value of those payments is £11·5 million. The £5,000 top-up payments have been issued to 12,114 businesses that received the £10,000 small business support grant last year. The total value of those payments to date is £60·4 million. <BR /> <BR />Businesses that did not receive an automatic top-up payment and any business that started to trade between 20 May 2020 and 1 March 2021 have been able to apply for the top-up grant since the 30 June 2021. <BR /> <BR />I expect the payments resulting from those applications to start issuing to businesses before the end of this month.”
“Of course, that means that the interim and final report will have to be public, and I am happy to lay them in the Assembly and table them for debate or to do whatever is required to ensure that that happens.”
“I am glad to hear that. The fiscal commission is an independent body. We will give it whatever support it needs, but we are not directing it in any fashion. It has been asked to report to me. My understanding is that it intends to produce some time in the autumn an interim report that would also be a good stimulant to public debate and perhaps further consultation and input from the public, political parties, business institutions, trade unions and others into the final report. The purpose was to stimulate debate and hopefully influence the Executive to engage, as has happened in Scotland and Wales for many years, with the discussion in an informed way so that an incoming Executive and an incoming Assembly can take decisions based on solid information.”
“From the representations that I get, however, not just from businesses but from other MLAs, there is a growing sense that there is unfairness in the arrangement when it comes to local businesses on the high street and those with an online presence, which have little if any rates burden attached to them.”
“That is an issue that has been raised many times, because there has been a sense of unfairness, particularly during the pandemic when our high street business had to close their doors and online trading became all the more important. Online businesses do not have the rates burden that a lot of smaller and more local businesses have. <BR /> <BR />Taxation issues are within the Treasury's remit, and I understand that it is looking at that area for online businesses, so it will be interesting to see what comes out of that. I am sure that the fiscal commission will take evidence from people on where they would like to see powers devolved to us, but, as I said, the Treasury is looking at the issue, and we would like to get a handle on its take on how that can be done.”
“I hope that it will generate a debate, not only in this institution but among the wider public. An incoming Executive will have to take a view, which will then begin a period of dialogue with Treasury. There will be ample chance to prove the stability of this institution over that time.”
“If there is a recommendation to an incoming Executive to do that, a discussion and negotiation with Treasury will begin. I presume that one of the issues to come up would be the stability of the institutions. The Member knows as well as I do that nothing is ever certain in politics and that, while we can assume that things are going along on an even keel, events often come along to upend that. In some ways, the pandemic was destabilising to our public services, but it was also a solidifying exercise for the parties in the Executive to have to pull together to face the emergency. Nonetheless, there has been significant instability, particularly in one of the Executive parties, and that has had an impact. <BR /> <BR />This will be a long enough process, because the report will come back to us and will then have to be considered.”
“The incoming Executive can use that as a basis for setting their future position on fiscal devolution issues.”
“I met the chair and members of the fiscal commission again last week, and they provided me with an update on their important work to date. The commission acts independently of ministerial and departmental direction, and our agenda covered practical operational issues. They indicated that, as part of their work programme, they have begun meeting a wide range of stakeholders, which, I understand, included a discussion with the Member on 21 June as part of their engagement with political parties. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased with the progress that they set out in our meeting and that they are on target to deliver their final report to me before the end of the current mandate, setting out their recommendations for future tax-varying and revenue-raising powers here.”
“Not that I am aware of and certainly not in my time. I presume that, if there was legislative change, it did not happen in the previous three years. No legislation went through here during that time. If it was a policy change, I will be happy to look at that and come back to the Member. It certainly has not happened in my time. We have been focused on responding to business needs during the pandemic. The intent of the rates policy is to respond to and implement some of the issues raised in the consultation that took place in, I think, 2018 or 2017. Sorry, it was in 2019, just before I came into office. I want to continue to engage with business in the time ahead as we review the policies.”
“That is understandable, but we have to find a system that is fair and recognises not only the burdens that businesses are under but the fact that the Executive require the resource to support public services. To be honest, I do not have plans to carry out an independent review, but I intend to continue the dialogue with businesses and business organisations to make sure that whatever the Department does is transparent and accessible to them and they can make their points of view known.”
“I have met business organisations more frequently, probably, than ever over the course of the pandemic to address a range of issues in relation to business support but also on the rates issue. I have never had the sense that people do not trust the Department to do a rates review. What they want is maximum consultation, and that is already beginning again. About two weeks ago, I had a meeting in the Department with business organisations to discuss the idea of review. Again, I think that people are content for the Department to do that. They want to be assured that the process is open and transparent and that there is significant consultation. <BR /> <BR />Different interests are at play in what the Department needs to do and what businesses would like to see.”
“I do not foresee circumstances in which the sudden increase that the Member mentioned would come about. Of course, the revaluation exercise is a redistribution of the rates burden among businesses. It is important to do that frequently to make sure that there is no sudden jolt from a valuation made seven, eight or nine years ago up to a new valuation that might create a higher level of change. We will continue with the objective to support businesses in the time ahead, including through the rates.”
“The reduction was in response to long-term lobbying before I became Finance Minister. There was a recognition in the Department that our business rates are much higher than, basically, anywhere else, so the 18% reduction was an attempt to address that. The Member will understand that the Executive need all the finances available to them, but I do not see any logic in trying to put rates back up, particularly given the economic downturn that will undoubtedly follow the pandemic. The Executive's objective, as the Member knows from his time there, was to keep businesses afloat and to support high streets and local businesses as best we could. I do not see the Executive agreeing to an exercise that would put a lot of businesses in significant danger of going out of business.”
“I recently announced that revaluation for non-domestic properties. It delivers on a commitment to have more frequent revaluations. The pandemic has had a dramatic impact on the economy, resulting in changes between business sectors. That will feed through to changes in the rental values of many properties. The last revaluation exercise was just over a year ago, but I have asked Land and Property Services (LPS) to bring forward another revaluation in the shortest possible time. Reval 2023 will maintain fairness and ensure that businesses pay rates that take account of the impact of the pandemic. Values will be based on rental evidence on 1 October 2021.”
“I have also made two changes that had been sought to assist district councils in relation to district rates. Finally, I recently announced the revaluation of non-domestic properties, which was another issue highlighted during the consultation. <BR /> <BR />As you are aware, rates are one of the few revenue-raising powers available to the Executive to generate funding for vital public services. I have established a fiscal commission to examine the case for increasing the fiscal powers available to us.”
“I am planning to keep non-domestic rates under close scrutiny as we emerge from the pandemic. My Department's 2019 review of business rates was undertaken in completely different circumstances to those now faced by our economy. The review provided some important insights, and I am pleased that significant progress has been made in respect of many of the issues highlighted during the public consultation. The overall high level of business rates and the balance of business rates to domestic rates were raised as issues during the public consultation. In response, I have reduced the regional business rate by 18% for 2020-21 and have held the rate at the reduced amount for 2021-22. I extended the small business rate relief scheme and restored the rural ATM relief scheme in response to feedback received.”
“We continue to engage with business, and we will do the revaluation exercise and look to how we can improve the rates picture. It is vital income for us for public services, but we know that it is a significant bill for a lot of businesses.”
“The look at non-domestic rates is ongoing. We are beginning a revaluation exercise in a much shorter time frame than has ever been done here before. That, again, was a request from businesses; they did not want a sudden jump in rates or a sudden redistribution between sectors through a revaluation exercise. It will take account of the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />Of course, we continue to engage with businesses. I engaged with some of them over the past number of weeks in relation to the ongoing review and reform of rates generally. With the rates holiday, it went almost unnoticed that there was an 18% reduction in non-domestic rates, which was very much welcomed by other businesses that could not avail themselves of the rates holiday.”
“That will, hopefully, stimulate businesses so that they can get back to a level of trading that means that they are in a better position to meet any other bills that come in.”
“We regularly engage with Treasury on behalf of a range of Departments. If the Department for Communities has such a request, we are more than happy to work with it on that and to engage with Treasury. <BR /> <BR />We had the initial year-long rates holiday. We were then able to extend that. At the start, we thought that that may be for just six months, but, because of additional COVID money, we were able to extend it. That will be two full years' rates holiday, which is a significant contribution to a lot of businesses at a cost of around half a billion pounds. We do not have any projection for further COVID money. It is unlikely that, beyond that period, we will have that type of money to give as support for businesses. Of course, we have fully funded the economic recovery package that the Department for the Economy is bringing forward.”
“The fiscal commission has just begun its work. I was pleased to meet it last week to get an update on what is happening with it. It will look at the totality of fiscal powers that may become available to an Executive. If such a proposal were put forward and agreed by the Executive, that would involve a negotiation with the Treasury. <BR /> <BR />Rates bring in about 10% of our Budget. Clearly, they are a very important source of revenue for the Executive and are used to support our public services. It is timely that we have the fiscal commission looking at the broad range of powers that may become available to us, and that there is an informed debate about those in the Assembly and in the public generally.”
“Local councils' intake on rates is protected, as it was during the last financial year. In many ways, it is actually a benefit for councils. If a business happens to fail through the course of the year, that rates income has been protected for them. <BR /> <BR />It cost us, as I said, over half a billion pounds. That was from COVID money that came to us from London as Barnett consequentials. It was not out of the original baseline budgets; it was additional COVID money. Nonetheless, it is important for those businesses. Quite a lot of them identified, as one of their primary requests, that bill being taken off the table for them in order to secure some certainty.”
“I am pleased to say that a further 12-month non-domestic rates holiday has been fully implemented and is now providing a further £230 million of support for businesses dealing with the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic. That package of support goes well beyond what has been given in England and demonstrates the Executive's commitment to providing certainty and support for businesses. It means that the additional rates support provided to business over two years amounts to more than half a billion pounds. The legislation for the additional holiday came into operation on 7 May. The regulations provide details of the businesses that are eligible for this support, helping to ensure that some 29,000 businesses continue to have a rates-free period.”
“We want to ensure that the policy begins to deliver so that people who bid for public money to provide services and contracts to government have to meet a significantly higher standard in their dealings with broad society and in their approach to societal interests and outcomes than has perhaps been the case in the past.”
“The Member knows that the Capita contract was awarded long before this discussion took place. We want to create a better future in relation to such matters. I cannot speak to the specifics of that contract. It comes under a different Department, and I am not across all the details. Suffice it to say that this is about creating social value in the awarding of contracts. It is about changing the picture. It is about higher requirements and higher standards for the people who get public money to deliver services. It is about changing the mindset. I am not across the detail of whether that specifically applies to some of the issues that the Member raises.”
“Mr Allister clearly falls into that category. He cannot see the bigger picture. Social value delivers much more than value for money. Of course, value for money is still an element in the awarding of contracts, but social value delivers much more for society. In the longer term, it will save money for the Executive. When disabled people or those with mental health issues can get back into work, that is a saving for the health service. When contractors are improving aspects of the environment through their everyday work, that is a longer-term saving for the Executive. Therefore, I invite Mr Allister to look above where he is at the moment and see the bigger picture. Value for money is much enhanced by social value, rather than simply counting the cost in pennies and shillings.”
“<BR /> <BR />I referenced USEL, a company that has won a government contract and is delivering that contract very well. USEL employs people with disabilities, which is social value that you can see in practice. We want to encourage more of that, and there is already a facility to encourage Departments and contracting bodies to deliver social value today. The benefit of scoring social value can be seen in a firm that delivers a very good service to government and real social value to people who would not otherwise be in the employment arena. That should not be random. I think that, across the North, only two companies deliver social value at the moment. Social value is now to be part of a minimum standard for all government contracts.”
“First, it is a minimum standard. Departments can, if they wish and if they have the capability, do that now. From next year, they can have a standard of higher than 10%. In 2023, the minimum standard will, subject to Executive approval, be 20%. I have just referred to one of the key issues, which is that people will be employed using the Living Wage Foundation's living standard wage. Rather than trying to encourage people to do right by society through making environmental improvements, there is a requirement for the fair treatment of workers. A range of measures will be aligned to the Executive's Programme for Government priorities. When contracts are being designed, the selection will not be random; it will be aligned to the Executive's Programme for Government commitments.”
“Significant numbers of people are employed in private contracts in the health service — in care homes and the caring sector — who do not necessarily get the living wage. The development of this will have a significant impact on those people, and I am glad that that will be the case.”
“I also welcome the Member to her seat. I am delighted to see her join us. She is correct that one of the key aspects of this is the living wage. It will allow many firms that wish to give their workers a decent standard the opportunity to do so and to bid for contracts and not be undercut by those who do not. That is an important part of this. As far as I am aware, the Governments in Scotland and Wales encourage or promote this but have not made it a requirement. This is probably the first institution on these islands to make this a requirement as part of contracts. In that case, we are ahead of the game. I think of significant workers. I caught the tail end of the previous discussion on the recognition of health workers.”
“If it requires legislative change, that would fall to the Department for Communities, but, even in the current framework, there is room for improvement in what the councils are doing, and there is an interest among some of the councils, which, perhaps, might increase when they see the roll-out. We will work with them in the time ahead if they wish to explore how to do this.”
“Legislation that comes under the responsibility of the Department for Communities applies to procurement for councils. Some argue that it places a value on value for money rather than on social value. Even within that, there are opportunities for councils to develop. Some of them have already been in dialogue with us, and some are encouraged by it and want to take it up. The Department remains willing to talk to councillors and council organisations, such as NILGA and SOLACE, to see how they can make sure that they build in as much social value as they can, because they are significant procurers of contracts across the community, and, if they were on board, it would have a significant impact. There is a willingness there.”
“The policy is an Executive policy, and part of the reason for bringing in that change to procurement was to make sure that it had endorsement from the whole Executive. My Executive colleagues gave a warm response to the policy.”
“We reconstituted the Procurement Board, and, rather than procurement policy being the property of the Finance Department and our Department having to attempt to get other Departments to adhere to it and follow it through, we have brought in a change that means that procurement policy is brought to the Executive for approval. The policy has Executive approval and is an Executive matter. All Ministers are duty-bound to abide by it. Unless someone brings a different policy to the Executive to undo that, an incoming Finance Minister is bound by the policy. We fully expect that. Of course, I look forward to the time when it is strengthened by legislation, but that may not be possible in this mandate.”
“The intention is that my Department will report annually to make sure that it is being standardised and followed through across all Departments and contracting bodies. We expect that, if somebody wins a contract on the basis of what they are going to do with regard to this policy requirement, they honour that. There will be penalties in the contract for not honouring that.”
“As I said in response to the previous question, if someone wins a contract and this is built into it, they are duty-bound to honour that contract. There will be the normal contracting procedures. As to how this is applied across the board in a more general sense, the SIB is developing the implementation process, which will include a monitoring and reporting process.”
“The Procurement Board is working on a range of issues, including going through and updating existing procurement guidance and discarding any that is not relevant to the current era. There are initiatives to improve the delivery of major capital contracts, on which there was a report recently. Addressing supply chain resilience has been one of the main features during the pandemic, and there is a timely piece of work on that. There are also measures to approve the commissioning of community-based services. That is some of the ongoing work. A programme of work has been outlined in the Department, and I am sure that it is available to members of the Committee.”
“We intend that there will be an ongoing monitoring and reporting mechanism. It will be enforced in the way that all contracts are enforced: if people get a contract, they will subscribe to the terms of that contract and be expected to adhere to and honour it.”
“The Member has identified a key part of the policy: we should have a standard process so that people across all Departments and people who bid for contracts become familiar with how the process works. That will give the policy a much better chance of having an outcome. <BR /> <BR />It will be enforced because it will be built into contracts. It will be part of a contract award. If people default on the contract, depending on the nature of it, there will be penalties. We want to make sure that that standard approach is maintained across all the Departments. That is why, every year, the Department of Finance will report on how it is working. Where Departments have sought deviation from it in specific circumstances, the Department of Finance will report on how that worked and why it came about.”
“I know that the Member has a keen interest in this, and I have welcomed his input. Obviously, first, we wanted to get the policy in place and get it to the Executive. He knows that I and all Ministers have conversations around the Executive table most weeks about the tight time frame for the significant amount of legislation that is coming through. It is my ambition to legislate for this within this mandate. Now that the policy is in place, we need to check that that can be done. If it can be done, we will do it. If it is not possible within this mandate, given other competing Executive Bills and the short time frame, I will want to get it to a place where legislation can follow quickly in the new mandate. However, if it can be done in this mandate, we will do it.”
“My Department will produce an annual report, and, as I said in response to an earlier question, SIB is working up how that will be delivered, implemented and reported on so that we get an ongoing sense of the policy's impact. I see it very much as an evolving policy. If there is scope for setting a higher minimum standard, I am sure that that can be looked at in the future.”
“It is very much an evolving policy. We are setting a score target for a contract. Initially, starting next June, the target will be 10%, which is a figure that was reached after consultation with the people on the Procurement Board who represent various sectors. That is a minimum target, so there is nothing to stop Departments going for more than that or, if they have the capacity, starting it now. In June 2023, we move to 20% as a minimum target. Again, that can be exceeded if Departments have the capability to do so or the contract allows for it. What we are setting are very much minimum standards. <BR /> <BR />It is also an evolving policy, which is why we have a reporting mechanism with it.”