Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“I would be very happy to hear from the Member in writing on that just to make sure that we are clear on the agencies that she is talking about. Of course, I want to see all people who work for the public sector being adequately rewarded for their work. That is why I have introduced the living wage issue to the Civil Service and public bodies generally. If I hear from the Member, I will be happy to come back to her in more detail.”
“I hope that the Executive will agree a draft Budget and be in a position to commence consultation on it in the very near future.”
“As you will be aware, I have recommended to the Executive that funding for the health service should be their top priority in this Budget. A multi-year Budget provides all Departments, including the Department of Health, with greater certainty of their funding over the next three years and provides an opportunity for longer-term planning. I have shared a paper with Executive colleagues that sets out indicative allocations to Departments in the draft Budget. That contained recommendations to provide additional funding to the Department of Health to support the transformation of health and social care. This was discussed at the Executive meetings on 23 November and 2 December. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, it is for the Executive to agree any recommendations and allocate resources accordingly.”
“As I said, we expect that there will be an agreement to fund that by the end of the year and that the work will take six months to complete once the contracts have been awarded,”
“As I outlined in my answer to the substantive question, we have identified only one property that has ACM above 18 metres and is deemed to require these works. No particular Department here has responsibility for this. In Britain, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities has entire responsibility for all the matters that come under this question here. In the absence of any other Department stepping up here, the Department of Finance once again stepped up and took on responsibility for dealing with the issue at the request of the head of the Civil Service. We have rolled out this particular programme and, as a consequence, have one property that qualifies.”
“If that particular property meets all of the criteria, the expectation is that a funding agreement will be entered into with the applicant before the start of January next year. Once that is secured, it is up to the managing agent to enter into a contract to undertake the works. The managing agent has indicated that the works are likely to take approximately six months to complete. <BR /> <BR />In relation to the other 11 buildings — I am sure that I will hear from the Member about the properties in her constituency — we are in discussion with the Department for Communities and the Housing Executive on how a programme might be taken forward. We hope to make progress on that in the near future.”
“As part of that exercise, we looked at a range of non-ACM cladding that might be considered unsafe. About 11 buildings been identified, and it will take another programme to address them. <BR /> <BR />The application has been assessed, but the costs will have to be agreed and the contract will have to be put out before the remedial works can be done. I am told that the estimated cost is in the region of £400,000, which means that more than half of the £1 million is yet to be used. As a consequence of the feedback that we have got on other buildings, we are looking at what programmes will be needed.”
“We do not have the same type of landscape of buildings as in Britain. We have fewer high-rises. Fortunately, for the people living in such buildings, only one building qualified under the ACM criteria.”
“My Department established a fund to help private residents in buildings over 18 metres in height who would otherwise have an obligation to meet the cost of removing unsafe aluminium composite material (ACM) cladding from their homes. The fund received an application by the closing date of 31 October 2021 from a management company acting on behalf of the residents of one building. The application is being assessed.”
“As a consequence of that Bill, we will get about £50 million. One of the issues that we have is that the money is likely to come in this financial year with the insistence that it be spent then, which is not of particular use to us, because, as the Member will know, people are still enjoying a rates holiday at the moment. However, we are working on a way to ensure that the money can be used in the next financial year. Of course, it is a matter for the Executive to agree, but my proposition is that the money is ring-fenced and used for the provision of rate relief in some measure in the next financial year.”
“It has not. It is my fault if the Member thinks that there is a vagueness. I did not have the figure in front of me, and my powers of recollection are such that I knew the region that it was in, but I was loath to give an actual figure because I knew that I would have to correct it. I have no reason to alter from the position that has officially been given to the Member or his Committee. That is the amount and the time frame attached to it.”
“I agree with the Member, of course. Not only has Land and Property Services repurposed itself to become a grant-giving organisation but there have been other unforeseen consequences such as the issues that relate to this legislation that arose during the pandemic. Coincidentally, those issues have arisen in England, Scotland and Wales and are being dealt with in a similar fashion to the approach being taken here. The pandemic threw up an awful lot of challenges for LPS, and it has handled them very well, as has been the case across the government sector.”
“Therefore, we had to move to close down that effect, but specifically only in relation to coronavirus. People can appeal on a range of other measures, and that will continue to be the case. There was a need to close that down because the potential cost to the Executive and public finances was so significant.”
“The impact on the Executive's budget is potentially into the hundreds of millions of pounds over a number of years. I explained the core of the issue during discussion at Second Stage, when we sought accelerated passage. I thank the Committee for the work that it has already undertaken on that. <BR /> <BR />The core of the issue was that the Executive used resources from the COVID-19 money to compensate businesses for being closed. The purpose of the legislation in its original intent was to compensate for a specific local issue, and I referenced the Primark fire and the businesses around it that were obliged to close. The effect of using that procedure to claim compensation for coronavirus would be that businesses would, in effect, be compensated twice.”
“On 21 May 2021, advice was received that the generous package of rate reliefs and grants for businesses that had been provided by the Executive during the pandemic was not relevant to determining NAVs. That was important for determining the possible financial impact. <BR /> <BR />Finally, on 12 June 2021, advice was received that social distancing and other COVID control measures would have to be taken into account in the assessment of an NAV. That very substantially increased the range of factors that Land and Property Service (LPS) valuers were obliged to consider, and, by extension, the estimated financial impact of the issue.”
“On 12 August 2020, legal advice from a second senior counsel was that, even if the restrictions did constitute relevant matters under article 39A, no change to the NAV might be justified in the specific circumstances of the property. Therefore, each would have to be assessed individually. <BR /> <BR />On 28 September 2020, advice was received that any change that was made to an NAV on the basis of article 39A matters would have to be applied to comparable properties. That was the first confirmation that the impact of a single challenge would be wider than the individual property and could have a widespread impact on what is known as the "tone of the list". That was confirmed by another senior counsel on 19 December 2020.”
“Legal advice on the full impact of the interaction of article 39A(1A) of the Rates Order 1977 and the coronavirus restrictions was received in a number of stages between March 2020 and June 2021. Six key pieces of advice confirmed the impact. <BR /> <BR />My Department received the first pieces of legal advice that there might be an impact on 25 and 26 March 2020. At that point, the advice was that any change to net annual value would be temporary, lasting only as long as the restrictions. On 10 May 2020, that advice was reversed, and we were advised that the changes would be permanent and last for the entire duration of the valuation list.”
“We are all aware that it is one of the most pressing needs that families face at present. That is why, rather than wait to January to see what the returns might be, I asked Departments to give an early indication so that we could put together a package early to support winter fuel payments. That is what I have put to the Executive. As I said, there is an element in that to support NIW, because it has particularly pressing issues with energy costs, but it is largely to support that. I hope that we can get Executive agreement on that and get it into action as quickly as possible.”
“I am not sure that we have the authority to extract contributions from utility companies. That would be a reserved matter. If we did have that power, we might, perhaps, be talking to them. We did get responses from Departments to indicate what moneys they would be surrendering, so I was able to put together a proposition that I think will be sufficient. It will never, ever be enough, because people are living in crisis and energy prices are going through the roof. However, it will be an important support package nonetheless. I hope for an early resolution on that issue, to enable the Department for Communities to get a much-needed scheme up and running to help households.”
“NI Water is the biggest energy consumer among the public-sector bodies. Particular challenges have been identified, given the increasing cost of electricity. As part of that package that I proposed to the Executive, I included an amount for NI Water to try to tide it over at least until January, as it faces those increases.”
“I recognise the problems that the Member has outlined. I also recognise that energy prices went up suddenly only a month or six weeks ago. Last year, the Department for Communities provided a support package worth £50-odd million, so, clearly, the £14 million that has come across as a Barnett consequential will not be enough, given the growing crisis and the increase in the cost of living. That is why I asked Departments to bring forward amounts that they were preparing to surrender, rather than wait until January monitoring, so that the Executive could have an idea of what may be in the pot and could take the initiative early on to provide sufficient funding for the scheme. I hope that we can get agreement to move on that quickly.”
“I have shared proposals with Executive colleagues and hope to get an agreement as soon as possible on the level of funding that can be provided to the Department for Communities for that vital support measure.”
“In order to provide support as quickly as possible and rather than waiting until January monitoring, I wrote to Executive colleagues on 17 November proposing that the full £14 million Barnett consequential is immediately provided to the Department for Communities for an energy payment support scheme to alleviate fuel poverty this winter. It is clear that the £14 million will not go far enough to provide for that much-needed support. Therefore, I asked all Ministers to carefully examine their departmental budgets to see if they would be in a position to identify underspends in advance of January monitoring to maximise the support that can be provided to households.”
“Wales and Scotland have been through a number of iterations of Fiscal Commission-type reports. We are, at last, getting somewhere, and that is now being looked at. However, I hope that an incoming Executive will look at it favourably and begin the exercise of looking at additional powers so that we can raise our own finances for the purposes of assisting us in directing them to our priorities.”
“Timewise, it will not be possible to do that. I wish that it were. I sincerely hope that we would have Executive agreement to do that. When I set up the Fiscal Commission, I said that, given where we are in the mandate, the report that it will produce early in the new year will likely fall to an incoming Executive to discuss and agree. <BR /> <BR />An agreement by an incoming Executive would then open up a negotiation process with Treasury on how such powers would be transferred and what the arrangements would be for them. None of that would be possible within the time frame of setting a Budget over the next 12 or 14 weeks and legislating for that between then and the end of the mandate. <BR /> <BR />The problem is that we are long overdue this type of approach and report.”
“There appears to be a marked increased desperation across the Benches to big up Santa Claus a bit. There are different ways of counting it. The fact that the population here needs more intervention as a consequence of 50 years of rule by the Member's party plus another 30 years of direct rule is perhaps not something that he should crow about. The opposite Benches appear to be comfortable with a begging bowl mentality that, some years, we might get a good bounce out of it and, other years, we will not, but it is up to the British Government. I would much prefer that we raise our own finances, stand on our own two feet and take our own decisions in the best interests of the entirety of the population that lives on this island.”
“I am glad that the Member has such allegiance to the highest authority. We will see how that plays out in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />The Office for National Statistics' work is to provide an overview of British government public finances. That is why it sought to share out that type of spending on military forces and debt across Britain and here, even though those expenses are not incurred here. I like to operate on the basis of what we spend and what public services we get. It is not a case of saying that the Fiscal Council has got it wrong but simply two different ways of looking at the same issue.”
“It is unsatisfactory, and that applies not only to this jurisdiction but to Scotland and Wales, which have a similar outlook on the British Government's approach.”
“There is no doubt that our estimate of the replacement for EU funding will show us in a net loss position. We now have a situation in which the British Government's attempt to replace some of that funding is done through their own competition processes: the levelling-up agenda and the Shared Prosperity Fund (SPF). The initial pilot scheme delivered us way short of what we would have expected under European funding, and we have no influence on or input into it, which means that some of the projects that are funded may well be in line with our priorities but others may not. We may find ourselves cross-cutting on projects that we were preparing to support but that find funding from elsewhere. There is no coordination at all.”
“For many decades, it has seemed to be one in which, if we are good enough, the British Government, in their generosity, might give us more money. I would rather that we were able to stand on our own two feet and look after our own affairs.”
“I am not surprised that the Member focuses on that aspect of the report. Of course, there are different ways of counting what the subvention is. The Fiscal Council references the estimate from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) of the fiscal deficit. That estimate is based on assumptions of tax revenue rather than actual data and includes £3·3 billion of non-identifiable spending made up of things such as British government debt repayment and spending on military forces. It is important not to conflate that spending with the accounting exercise on the economic impacts here of public spend. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that the Member can find his own arguments to support his political philosophy.”
“A Cheann Comhairle, with your permission, I will answer questions 2 and 11 together. <BR /> <BR />The Fiscal Council has produced a comprehensive and informative guide to public finances in the North. Anything that provides improved transparency to the Budget process is to be welcomed. The report has helpfully highlighted specific areas in which we can improve and in which further budgetary information may be helpful. My officials and I will consider the report further as part of the development of the Executive's 2022-25 Budget, which is to be finalised next year. <BR /> <BR />On the council's response to the 2021 spending review, I welcome its comments that a multi-year settlement provides an opportunity to implement a three-year Budget here.”
“That type of initiative would stray into criminal justice. The Department works quite closely with the PSNI and the Department of Justice to make sure that there is a general level of awareness out there of cybersecurity matters. <BR /> <BR />The Member is correct: there is an increasing sense of vulnerability. Having spoken to police personnel, I know that they are increasingly focused on this area of crime. The Department of Finance, as part of its broad cybersecurity role across the public sector, will be very happy to play whatever role it can on that in the future.”
“The Department works with the DOJ and the PSNI on cyber protect and prevent measures to provide better cyber prevention support to businesses and with the Department for Communities to provide outreach and advice to community groups and the third sector.”
“The Member is correct that the Department acts in a coordination and championing role for cybersecurity across all Departments. As part of that role, it is necessary to work with them, get input and drive initiatives forward. <BR /> <BR />Input from other Departments helps with achieving a better overall cybersecurity outcome that is based on the develop, deter and defend themes that are set out in the strategic framework for action. For example, working in the skills and industry group combines input from the Department of Justice, the PSNI, the Department of Education, the Department for the Economy, the Education Authority, the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) and the private sector to look at the challenges with cyber skills shortages and education.”
“The pack that is produced, which is, I hope, accessible to and usable by all young people, is to assist young people, their peers and their families to gain knowledge of cybersecurity. I hope that they avail themselves of that and use it in that way. <BR /> <BR />The programme was launched only very recently, so it will take some time to roll it out and measure its success. I am sure that, if a need were to be identified to include a cohort of people who, perhaps, are not included in the programme, that could be looked at in the future.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Cyber Champions resource pack is available on the Cyber Security Centre’s website. I strongly encourage young people to avail themselves of that resource and become familiar with how they can protect themselves from cyber threats.”
“The Cyber Champions programme was launched on 18 November 2021. It was produced in partnership with the Consumer Council, the PSNI and the Scamwise partnership. The programme is aimed at protecting our young people while they are online by helping them to safely navigate cyber risks. It provides a resource pack to assist teachers and leaders of youth clubs and youth groups to explain key aspects of cybersecurity in a fun and meaningful way. <BR /> <BR />By empowering our young people and informing them about cyber risks and key behaviours and actions, we will place them in a better position to protect themselves, their friends and their family. The initiative also informs young people of the opportunities that exist to explore the evergrowing and fast-paced world of cybersecurity as a potential career pathway.”
“To sum up — I know that we are running out of time, a LeasCheann Comhairle — I again thank the Finance Committee for its help in scrutinising the Bill. Given that there are no objections to the amendments, I propose that they be accepted.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Chair sought some assurances about matters that were raised by and advice that was given by the Fiscal Council. I am happy to give him those assurances. He said that the Fiscal Council has not been established, but it has, in fact. It gave you quite a lot of advice. I appreciate the advice that it gave to the Committee, but, of course, we want to legislate for it. It will take the Fiscal Council to engage with us on its early establishment and on what it needs legislatively. That commitment is there, and I expect it to be followed through as early as possible in the next mandate.”
“I thank all those who responded to the debate. I think that the general sense of the contributions from Mr Buchanan, Mr McHugh and the Committee Chair are that this is a step in the right direction for enhanced scrutiny, clarity and transparency on fiscal matters, which is essential. I am very much supportive of that and have been for many years. If the Assembly and the Committees are able to provide the full level of scrutiny that we want them to be able to, we have to make sure that matters are as transparent as they possibly can be. The Bill is a small step in the right direction. I hope and anticipate that it will be followed by further actions through more accessibility and transparency in our financial matters.”
“In the course of its consideration at Committee Stage, it suggested a number of helpful non-legislative changes to the wider process, which I am happy to support.”
“<BR /> <BR />The legislation that supports the Public Services Ombudsman specifically states, however, that the ombudsman is not subject to the direction or control of a Department. Amendment Nos 1 and 2 amend the Public Services Ombudsman Act (Northern Ireland) 2016 to clarify that the directions that the Department of Finance issues on the Estimates will also relate to NIPSO. Amendment No 2 expressly provides for Estimates direction within the Public Services Ombudsman Act (Northern Ireland) 2016. I can confirm that my officials carried out engagement with other independent bodies that have individual Estimates and concluded that no further amendments are required. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Finance Committee for its help in scrutinising the Bill.”
“The Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill amends the Government Resources and Accounts Act (Northern Ireland) 2001 to allow the Department of Finance to issue directions on the way that Departments prepare Supply Estimates so that they include the spending of designated non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs). The Bill also provides that, where an Estimate is prepared by another body, the same conditions apply to that body as to the Departments: that is, that the Department of Finance may direct how such a body prepares Estimates and may direct that the Estimates and accounts prepared by that body include the spending of any bodies designated by the Department.”
“I fully respect the points about retrospective legislation and the denial of a right to appeal — matters that will concern all MLAs — however, from our perspective — I hope that, as we go through the stages of the Bill, the Committee and, indeed, the Assembly will also come to this view — this unique course of action is the only one that is open to us to deal with the issue. It will deal with this specific issue, not the wider issue of appealing rates amounts on the grounds that the matter was supported when the Executive had the funds to do so. With that, I commend the Bill to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />To have provided all that compensation from the public purse, and then, in a further drain on the public purse, to have allowed businesses to claim again on the basis of legislation that was never intended to deal with wholescale closure — it was intended to deal with a localised closure and a limited impact on businesses — would have been unfair. I absolutely do not say that because I resent the support that businesses got. They needed that support, they were entitled to it and we were very glad to be able to give it to them. However, the public purse — the money that we need for public services — would have taken a further hit if those businesses had been allowed to claim again.”
“This is a particular problem. The circumstances did not apply in any other circumstances that any of us had come across before. The pandemic hit and affected all businesses to a certain extent, which was why all businesses got four months of rate relief at the start of the pandemic. There was a further focused exercise through which the Executive and the Assembly agreed that certain businesses would get a rates holiday, not just for the rest of that financial year but for two years, to accommodate and compensate them for the impact of the pandemic. Those businesses that were forced to close were also able to access the LRSS to compensate them for that closure.”
“The course of action was decided and others are, of course, free to disagree with that if they choose. <BR /> <BR />The legal advice began two or three days before 1 April 2020 and continued over that period. Questions and answers went backwards and forwards, views were given, probed and challenged and some of the legal advice changed as time went on. There will obviously be an opportunity for the Committee to analyse all of that in the time ahead. Suffice it to say that there are, of course, questions and matters to which the Committee will want to apply itself. Of course, departmental officials and I will undertake to give whatever support and advice that we can to the Committee. <BR /> <BR />I do not buy into the notion of scandal that people tried to present. If people want to go with that, it is fair enough.”
“As I said, those were some of the issues that the Department was grappling with. It received legal advice prior to 1 April 2020, and there was further exploration with officials and further legal advice over the months beyond that. Therefore, the issue was not settled in those terms on 1 April 2020. <BR /> <BR />As I said, the balance of choice was the Department setting aside the 2020 revaluation — people could still have appealed on the basis of the 2015 revaluation — knowing that 60% of businesses were likely to face a more beneficial outcome and denying them that in order to wait to see what came out of COVID. Therefore, there was, as I do not doubt that there was in some of the public airing of this, a difference of opinion about the best course of action to take.”
“We knew from the valuation list that about 60% of properties were due a reduction in valuation, so we could stay with that, knowing that we would impact negatively on 60% of properties, or we could move ahead to see what the coronavirus restrictions brought. At that stage, the restrictions were predicted to be for only six weeks. That was the choice that was made in April 2020. The decision was to go ahead, but I am sure that the Member will get a chance to explore that decision.”