Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“To be quite honest, we can see no rhyme or reason as to how the funding was allocated. As a matter of fact, the view of the Executive was not sought on the three projects that got the largest share of the funding. One of the projects was a call centre based in Oxford. I am not sure how that got funding attributed to the Executive; maybe it provides services to us. It is very unsatisfactory, and we will continue to make representation. <BR /> <BR />I have asked for an analysis of the outcomes of that funding allocation to try to get some sense of it. It does not come through us so we do not know who applied for funding and did not get it. I spoke to the Scottish Finance Minister recently, and she is doing something similar. No doubt, Wales will be doing that. We will go back to Treasury and say, "This not working for us".”
“We are trying to analyse the outcome of the Community Renewal Fund, which came here recently. As you know, we have made repeated representations to Treasury — Scotland and Wales have made exactly the same representations — that it is funding projects and schemes in our area that do not take account of the Executive's priorities and that we have no function or role in. We were offered a high-level contribution and asked to say whether or not it met our priorities. We had no sense of whether that would actually secure the funding, or whether, if we said that it did not meet our priorities, that might knock a project out of funding and that money would not come back to us to allocate to other priorities. <BR /> <BR />We have been trying to analyse the first run of funding.”
“We are trying to identify some steps that can be taken to address some of these issues in advance of the deep winter. The Minister already has a number of schemes from which she can allocate funding to support people with their home heating costs. Last year, we put in an additional £50 million. This year, we have an additional £12 million or £13 million, which, clearly, will not be adequate when the increase in energy costs is added.”
“Yes, I have. I know that the Communities Minister is very exercised about that. Last year, people required support with their energy bills over the winter, and we had more money in the pot to do that because of the COVID money. This year, the gas and electricity price hikes have happened very suddenly. You have identified the very significant costs associated with that. The Communities Minister is very concerned, and I have had discussions with her. <BR /> <BR />The next redistribution point for any available funding is January. By that stage, people might already be in crisis. We are considering discussing with other Departments, which might know now, what they will surrender in January and seeing if we can get Executive agreement to put that towards the cost of living crisis. That will depend on what returns Departments make.”
“No, we have not as yet. The letter was sent last week, I think, although judging by the time that Treasury sometimes takes to respond to us —. I hope for an early response, because I am firmly of the view that we are in the midst of a cost of living crisis. Any steps that can be taken such as waiving VAT on energy bills should be explored by the Government. That would make a contribution. There are contributions that the Executive could make as well, and it is incumbent on us to find ways to do that. Certainly, Treasury could make a major contribution in terms of VAT on energy bills.”
“It is for the Department of Finance to engage with the Treasury on those issues. Specifically on the Strule Shared Education Campus, we have spoken to the Treasury about re-profiling money. We want to ensure that, where there is capital money that will not be spent at the time, particularly for Education — there was capital money for shared housing too — we engage with the Treasury to re-profile it in order to make sure that the money is not lost.”
“Fresh Start money is generally earmarked as part of an agreement, so, to a large extent, it is ring-fenced. We obviously liaise with the NIO, through which the Fresh Start money came, to make sure that we access it and include it in our budgets, but it is earmarked for a range of matters. Some of it was health transformation money. Some of it was money to be spent by TEO on tackling paramilitarism and other areas. It is not a matter of taking a pot from the NIO and then making recommendations on its allocation to the Department of Finance. Parties agreed with the British Government on spending on a range of areas. It still will be included in our budgets this year, but it is largely ring-fenced for certain areas.”
“Through things such as building regulations, as well as through some financial contribution, the Department of Finance can contribute to that.”
“The Department for Infrastructure has been looking at how to do that. I heard the Minister for Infrastructure, when she was answering questions yesterday about the British-Irish Council transport meeting that she was at, saying that we have also offered to look at building regulations to see whether to include charging points in new buildings. <BR /> <BR />Some of it is about financial contributions, but we can do other things to make sure that the electric charging infrastructure is sufficient to encourage people to make the move from fossil fuel powered vehicles to electric vehicles. We need to make sure that the incentives are there and that some of the issues that concern people, such as access to charging, are dealt with.”
“The Department for Infrastructure is one of a range of Departments. As part of the pre-planning exercises, before we knew the outcome of the spending review, we presented to Executive colleagues a range of priorities with which we believed the Executive should engage. Health was one, obviously. Others were green growth and recovery, sustainable economic growth and tackling inequalities. We invited Departments, including the Department of Infrastructure, to make bids against the priorities. By doing that, we will get a sense of the contribution that Departments want to make over the next three years, but we have to match that against the resources that we have for those Departments over that period.”
“That is part of it. A living wage has been brought in by the Executive for all Civil Service workers in the first instance. It affects in the region of 300 or 400 Civil Service workers, bringing them up to the level of the living wage. On procurement, the Executive approved our agreement to ensure that, from next June, new government contracts will be awarded on the basis of ensuring that the people who win them pay a Living Wage Foundation standard living wage to the people whom they employ.”
“They can look at how services are provided. Of course, we want top-class services. We want to ensure that those services are working for people. There is that flexibility but, through our own procurement guidance that we are bringing through the Executive bit by bit, we are ensuring that that is hammered home. A guidance paper will go to the Executive tomorrow, I hope, that will reinforce that message.”
“<BR /> <BR />One thing that we have heard loud and clear from community projects is that they have spent years providing services, particularly in areas like mental health and health support to communities, only to find themselves outbid for some of those contracts by organisations that have much deeper pockets and have come in and, in some cases, subcontracted the services back out to the community and voluntary sector organisations that were doing the job in the first place. They have ended up doing the same job for less money. Obviously, they have built up the local connections, knowledge, interactions with people in the area and that confidence in providing a service. <BR /> <BR />Therefore, through procurement, we have said clearly to Departments that they have the flexibility to look at awarding grants rather than tenders.”
“We are doing that through the Procurement Board, which I reconstituted. I brought in a range of people so that we could get some voices in there that had not previously been heard, and also some practitioners to ensure that we had that level of expertise in the Procurement Board. We made a recent addition: we brought in people from the voluntary and community sector — we already had social enterprise people — to make sure that their voices were heard.”
“If, as I said in response to an earlier question, the Executive are in a situation where other Departments are making a contribution, we will want to understand that the programme of reform is being followed through and that we are getting that, because there is a recognition — and Health recognises it as much as anybody — that to leave things unchanged for the next number of years would result in an ever-increasing contribution from the entire block grant to Health alone. That is not sustainable in the longer term, so reforms are absolutely necessary for the system itself and also for our public finances.”
“The Health Department is committed to the reform process. The Health Ministers, current and previous, have been committed to that reform process. One thing that we have suffered from is annual Budgets that do not allow the necessary planning and recurring funding to ensure that, for one thing, enough staff are recruited to cover that responsibility and to ensure that those reforms can carry on over a number of years. Health is, of course, already committed to that.”
“Yes, I recognise that. Although, obviously, the lion's share of health spend is in the Health Department, there are certainly actions which could be taken in a lot of Departments that could contribute to good health and mental health, all of which would reduce the demand on health services. Some of the anti-poverty measures that we talked about earlier also make a contribution in that regard, as do transport measures and a range of others. All Departments have a responsibility in that regard. That is why the Executive have collectively prioritised health. They recognised that it was not just an area for the Health Department itself, but that we all had responsibility to try to fund it and deliver. That is why we have invited all Departments to bid with regard to health in the run-up to the draft Budget stage.”
“We have a responsibility to try to protect the public purse, in light of all the conversations that we have had for the past half hour about the pressures on public services.”
“I think that it is absolutely prudent that, if we recognise that there is a significant risk to the public purse, we take steps to address that. If we did not, I have no doubt that the Member would be very vocal in his criticism of inaction. <BR /> <BR />It is not ordinary legislation. I do not like the idea of using accelerated passage. Now that we have Executive approval to go ahead, I intend to consult business sectors and others to make sure that people understand what we are doing. I think, however, that even the Member understands that the legislation that exists that allows this was not designed for a global pandemic but for specific local instances in which people lost the value of their property. As I said, it is clearly not what the legislation was designed for.”
“We are looking at which sectors are continuing to feel the weight of the impacts of COVID to see whether there is anything that we can do to support them in the new financial year, but that will very much depend on the budgets that are available to us.”
“The rates support that was provided was largely from COVID money that we received from Treasury, so we do not have that level of money going into the next financial year. Nonetheless, we have asked the Ulster University Economic Policy Centre, which provided us with some advice, guidance and supporting evidence on how we tailored the rates package after the initial four months, to give us some further advice on which specific sectors are continuing to suffer as a consequence of the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />A lot of the retail sector and the hospitality sector has been opened up, albeit with ongoing restrictions in place, but some sectors are suffering as a consequence.”
“That type of hit to the public purse would probably have more negative and longer-term consequences for rates for those businesses.”
“Such legislation originated in Westminster, and, as I said, legislation of a very similar fashion to the Bill that we have adopted is going through in Wales and in Scotland. We hope that, associated with the Bill, there will be some compensatory factor available to us that will come across as a Barnett consequential. If that is the case — we certainly hope that it is the case, and we are testing that at the moment with Treasury — we will try to ensure that businesses get some recompense for that. The consequence of not doing anything, however, would be a much greater cost to the public purse, which would ultimately impact on our ability to move on things such as looking at business rates and some of the rates interventions that we could make on small business support and manufacturing support.”
“The precise point of the Bill is to make sure that we deal with potential fiscal pressures. It is a device that was intended to deal with some specific local issues. It can now be used in a global pandemic, although that was never its intention, so we are moving very specifically in that regard to protect the public purse from any loss. <BR /> <BR />We are in discussion with council finance officers, and I intend to have discussions with business organisations in the very near future. Our ability to consult anyone was dependent on the Executive's approval for the Bill to be taken forward, which was granted only a few short weeks ago. We have no intention of absorbing the cost. There would therefore be no intention of passing that cost on to local government.”
“Additionally, a consultation should not be undertaken if it is not going to be meaningful. In this case, there is no outcome of a consultation on the Bill that could change the need for the legislation or its intent or nature. I can confirm, however, that equivalent legislation in England, Wales and Scotland has been introduced without consultation.”
“Support for the Bill and the accelerated passage process were agreed by the Executive on 21 October. This is not ordinary legislation; it is an emergency measure that is being introduced purely to mitigate significant fiscal risk. Failure to bring the legislation through could result in revenue losses of up to £255 million for the Executive and district councils over a three-year period from April 2020 to March 2023. <BR /> <BR />The Department has taken legal advice on its obligations to consult. For this Bill, which addresses an urgent taxation matter, there is neither a statutory obligation nor a legitimate expectation to consult.”
“That is not just about hearing that more cash has been given to Health; it is about understanding how the objectives that we all want to see in elective care and a range of other measures are being met. Shorter-term and medium-term targets would be a very helpful approach, and I would be content to consider it. That discussion is ongoing. If, collectively — I do not mean just the Executive, I mean the Assembly as a whole — we are to allocate a significant chunk of our resources to Health, which is absolutely necessary as we deal with the consequences of years of austerity Budgets and try to support a service that is in crisis, we have to see what the transformative outcome of that will be over a number of years, and it is appropriate to measure that as we go along.”
“The Member makes a fair point. The Health budget has increased year-on-year, yet the problems, as we have all experienced or witnessed over the past number of days, continue to grow. I am committed to resourcing Health to try to make the transformative changes needed to properly fund our health service and reduce the cost of that provision to the public purse. Of course, improving public health is not simply a matter for the Department of Health; a range of Departments has a role. Indeed, we all have a contribution to make in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The draft Budget is yet to be set, and it may well be the case that other Departments will be asked to contribute to that outcome. If that is the case, people will want to know what we are getting for that contribution.”
“As I said in response to previous questions, there is no doubt that we are in a cost of living crisis, and it is incumbent on all of us in the Executive to pool the limited resources that we have to try to ensure that we help families as best we can. The Communities Minister is very exercised about that and has programmes that can assist people, particularly with winter heating. However, those programmes are limited, and the additional Barnett consequential that we may receive from the Treasury is well short of what we spent in that area last year. I wrote to the Chancellor about VAT on energy bills, and we will see what comes out of that. It is a complex issue, but other Governments have been looking at introducing a temporary waiver on VAT on those bills in recognition of the climate that we are in.”
“The capital budget, with a 2·1% increase in real terms by 2024-25, is somewhat better.”
“The spending review outcome was better than feared but less than what we needed. I set out the details of the spending review settlement in my written ministerial statement, but I will comment about the increase in the Executive's Budget for the three-year period ahead. Much has been made of the Chancellor's announcement of £1·6 billion extra per annum for the Executive, but he was referring to additional amounts compared with a baseline that was significantly lower than the actual Budget for 2021-22. It is more accurate to compare the Budget envelope for the next three years with the Executive's 2021-22 Budget. When that comparison is made, the funding is much lower than £1·6 billion per annum. When compared with the 2021-22 Budget, there is no increase in the resource budget in real terms by the time we reach 2024-25.”
“Something at that level is done by Treasury, so, ultimately, it is a question for it. We have a more limited role here. The Fiscal Commission is looking at various tax-raising and tax-levying powers. I have not been prescriptive with it about what it might look at. I am eagerly awaiting a draft report to make sure that we can have that debate. Of course, a final report will be a matter for an incoming Executive to consider legislating for. The ability to put a carbon tax on large fossil fuel companies would more than likely originate from Treasury.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the Member referenced, two climate change Bills are going through the Assembly. I hope that there is some attempt to have a meeting of minds so that we get something that everyone can buy into and does what needs to be done in the time ahead in terms of climate change.”
“It is incumbent on us to try to ascertain the costs as best we can and make sure that, if that is a priority for the Executive — I am recommending that it should be — we have resources to meet our targets. The Executive have set themselves targets. We are not doing that alone; we are, obviously, part of a global attempt, as limited and fractious as it may be coming from COP26, to transition to net zero for future generations. We have to try to match the resources that are required to do that and understand the costs that are associated with doing it, but we set that against a range of priorities, some of which the Member outlined: health, education, protecting vulnerable people and economic recovery. We have to try to stretch what is a limited resource, even though it allows us to plan over three years, across that range of challenges.”
“One of the elements of the social value that people will have to demonstrate, which will be 10% of the contract value from next June and move up to 20% in June 2023, can and should be environmental. There is an opportunity for people to make that contribution. It is not just about simply the measures that the Executive take through public funding but about how they utilise their procurement power to ensure that other sectors make environmental contributions as well.”
“So we have had interest from a range of Departments that have responsibility in that regard. The Executive will have to set that priority against competing priorities in health, inequalities, economic growth, sustainability, skills and all the other areas that, when it comes to a Budget debate here, Members will, I am sure, say that we should have prioritised. Of course, commitments have been made for the transition to net zero. The Executive will have to try to match those commitments in their spending.”
“Again, it is for the Executive to guarantee that, not me. At our planning session pre the spending review outcome, which I remind the Member was disappointing, I invited the Executive to set priorities. One of the priorities that I invited them to set, by making submissions to allow me to draft a Budget with bids against some of those priorities, was around green growth and sustainability.”
“The Executive will shortly be preparing a draft Budget for the next three years, following the outcome of the spending review. To inform the development of the draft Budget, each Department has been invited to make bids against a limited number of Executive priorities, including green growth and sustainability, which will also cover climate mitigation. It will then be for the Executive to determine what funding will be made available as part of the Budget to help to tackle climate change and to support the transition to net zero.”
“It is not a very substantial cost on the public purse in broad terms, but it can have the effect of reducing dependency on other public services.”
“Yes, and we will have to do that. One of the leading officials at the event this morning said that there is a cost attached to this but that it is the right thing to do. The Living Wage Foundation wage has gone up in the last day or so, so that will increase the cost, but it was in the region of a small number of millions of pounds in overall terms of our budget. That is for the total number in the Civil Service. Once you get out into the broader public service, that increases. There are all sorts of implications for public finances of people living in poverty, which include for education and health, and, if we want to lift people out of poverty, we have to recognise that we need to adopt those standards. It is the right thing to do.”
“Whether it is done through a tender process or a grant process, we have to ensure that the flexibility that already exists for the way that Departments approach this is followed through, making sure that services in localities are provided by people who have experience in and knowledge of those localities.”
“We are looking at that issue again. We had a discussion at the event this morning. That was not just a launch. We had a discussion with people from that sector. There is recognition that a lot of the contracts provided by the community and voluntary sector are very location-specific. Those organisations know the geography and the people of the area that they are dealing with, and there is often not enough recognition of them, with contracts being awarded to larger firms that can simply come in with a lower cost. <BR /> <BR />There is recognition. Measures will be included within procurement to ensure that we recognise that the community and voluntary sector can provide a more effective service to local communities.”
“First, I correct the Member: the decision on universal credit was taken by the Executive and not by me. Members, from your party in particular, often credit me with more powers than I have. If you ever have a proposition to give me more powers, I will be very happy to receive it. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that that decision was taken by the Executive. I am very happy to work with other Ministers, in recognition of the fact that there is a cost-of-living crisis and that increased costs, particularly for energy and food, are very real for very many families. There was to be a dedicated discussion on that to see what all the parties can bring to the table. The Communities Minister has very much been pressing for that discussion. I am very happy to play my part if there is a proposition about that.”
“Today's announcement is not just good news for civil servants and public-sector workers; as we roll on into this and continue to do work on the living wage, it will also be good news for thousands of workers. Of course, a whole range of anti-poverty measures are needed. The Executive will have a role across all of those to try to ensure that people here enjoy a decent standard of living, particularly in the time of this cost-of-living crisis.”
“The Executive's living wage accreditation that was announced today applies to the Civil Service. We are encouraging and working with all public-sector organisations to make sure that that rolls out through the public sector generally. Care workers do an absolutely invaluable job. If that was not recognised before, it has certainly been recognised over the course of the pandemic. As you said, many of them are being paid the minimum wage. <BR /> <BR />As part of the procurement rules for new contracts, which we have changed, from June 2022, anyone who secures a government contract under which they would be employed by various trusts will have to pay their staff the Living Wage Foundation living wage. That will be a substantial hourly increase for those workers.”
“I was delighted to announce at an event this morning that the Living Wage Foundation has now formally accredited the Executive as a living wage employer. While that fully delivers on the NDNA commitment, my Department has gone further by introducing a new wider procurement policy that will see the living wage included as a condition of contract for tenders from June 2022. Furthermore, my officials are discussing with the foundation how we can support its campaign to encourage more employers to pay a living wage.”
“It will be a matter for the Executive to establish that and I am sure that they will get around to that in due course.”
“I am not certain that there was capital money unspent this year. The Audit Office presented a report into major capital programmes and how those could be improved. My Department has had a role in responding to that report, and there are lessons in it for all government Departments to make sure that there is an improvement in addressing the issues that it raises. With a limited Budget and so many competing priorities and projects looking for capital and resource money, the worst thing that we could do is not spend that out properly. There is a real onus on us to get that right. If there are lessons coming from that Audit Office report, we need to make sure that those are recognised and that appropriate action is taken. <BR /> <BR />On the infrastructure commission, I know that the Infrastructure Minister has raised issues around that.”
“It is a very substantial cost on the Executive's annual funding at a time when our annual funding does not come anywhere close to what we require to provide decent public services.”
“No, they have not made that commitment as yet. We are in dispute resolution with Treasury on the issue of victims' payments. We have committed up front to ensure that those payments are met so that no one who will potentially be a recipient will have to wait, or be concerned that they will have to wait, on such a payment coming through. The issue of funding is still a matter of dispute between the Executive and the Treasury. I raised the issue with the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury when I met him about a month ago. The dispute resolution process has not yet completed, and I intend to get back to him in the very near future to try to secure an agreement for that.”