Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“A report by Deloitte, in 2007, estimated the cost of division at £1·5 billion. In 2016, the Ulster University Economic Policy Centre estimated the cost of division at a lower figure, between £403 million and £833 million. The report outlined the significant complexity in the cost of delivering services in the North, costs that cannot be solely attributed to the context of a divided society. For example, delivering services in such a small region means that we do not benefit from economies of scale. The report also found that while, on average, the cost of public service provision tends to be higher than in Britain, across most areas, the costs here typically fall within the range of costs identified in other regions. The one exception to that is the cost of policing.”
“<BR /> <BR />While the Civil Service has performed heroically over the last year, a number of steps tell us that there is a need for substantial change and greater diversity in gender, age profile, disability and ethnic minorities. There is certainly much room for improvement, and we have a range of measures that we hope to bring forward to try to achieve that.”
“I appreciate that the Member may not have been in the Chamber earlier but, on the first question, we had a fairly lengthy discussion about reform of the Civil Service, attracting new people and enhancing the working experience. Through the Connect2 hubs that we talked about, we can employ people living in peripheral areas such as Derry or the other border areas who, otherwise, would not have been attracted to working five days a week in a headquarters in Belfast. Travelling is particularly a disincentive for women who bear the burden, unfortunately, of managing family life. Civil Service employment can become more attractive if we present those different options.”
“As I said to the Member who asked the previous question, if that is an issue, I am happy to clarify it. The guidance in relation to homeworking expenses for Civil Service staff is available on the COVID-19 hub on the Department of Finance's website. I suggest that people go there in the first instance. If we find that there is some breakdown in that communication, I am happy to have it looked at to ensure that people understand what they are entitled to.”
“The general feedback on that blend of working from home and coming in has been very positive. Sickness levels have dropped and productivity has gone up. We want to ensure that people have a good working experience and feel well supported, financially and through what other measures we can provide. If there is a communication issue with that, I am happy to raise that with the Department and make sure that it is looked at.”
“The Executive agreed to support a recognition scheme by way of a £500 payment for healthcare staff, and we have endeavoured in our pay awards for civil servants not to follow the model that was adopted in London, where they went for a 1% pay increase for healthcare staff and a freeze for all other public servants. We have introduced an increase over two years for the Civil Service. Of course, we are on a very fixed budget, and that is very challenging across all Departments. We had to balance what pay increase we could give against what was affordable across the Departments and other demands on public services. We are keen to support our public servants where we can, and we do recognise the efforts that have been made, particularly over the past year. We have provided an enormous amount of IT support to people.”
“In October 2020, HMRC set up a new dedicated working-from-home microservice, recognising that the tax years 2020-21 and 2021-22 are different and thereby making claiming tax relief quick and easy.”
“A Civil Service-wide survey has indicated that respondents in most Departments have made financial savings as a result of working from home: for example, from a reduction in travel costs. Nevertheless, employees who incur additional costs may be reimbursed by the Civil Service for costs incurred in the making of business calls on a personal mobile phone or home landline; additional home broadband costs, whether those be installation costs or increased data charges required solely for work purposes; and desk costs of up to £100. IT equipment and chairs are already provided by the Civil Service. Staff who have incurred additional costs can also claim tax relief in line with HMRC rules. HMRC publishes guidance on how to claim tax relief on any homeworking expenses incurred that are not reimbursed by the employer.”
“There had been quite a degree of scepticism around the Chamber in January and February that that would be achieved, but, nonetheless, it was. I therefore do not anticipate the money not being spent in some useful fashion to assist us in our COVID response.”
“With the COVID money, we made an initial allocation to the Department of Health. We waited on Health to bring forward its assessment for the year before we allocated some of the rest of it, because it had first shout on need. Once we got that, we were then able to meet the bids from other Departments. Departments make bids for that money on the basis that they can spend it, and we will monitor that as the year goes on. If it is not being spent on what it was intended for, it will have to be surrendered and then redistributed at a later stage in the year. We proved last year, with a much more significant amount of COVID funding, that our Department and all the other Departments were able to spend out that money before the end of the financial year.”
“As I said, the council is yet to fully confirm its own terms of reference as to how it will work. Our intent in establishing it has been for it to assist in scrutinising the processes and decisions involved in the Executive's management of the Budget. That would mean that it will be interested in the review of the financial process, how that will work and how that will assist in changing the reporting to the Assembly and to the wider public. That is a discussion that we have had not just today but many times in Budget debates here. As you know, the fiscal council is an independent body, so it is not for me to say how it may approach that task or how involved it may be in the oversight of that work, but I welcome anything that brings transparency to the financial processes.”
“If it has its independence and if it has engaged in a consultation exercise, I will expect it to come back to us to tell us what it intends to do and what recommendations it intends to make in the longer term.”
“The fiscal council is not long in place. It is engaged in consultation and discussion with various interested parties and should be with the Finance Committee this week. It has not yet made recommendations to me on the outcome of that. I expect it to consider enhancing its terms of reference. Essentially, we gave the council start-up terms of reference and allowed it, as an independent body, to examine the scope of what it wanted to deal with. I expect that it will turn its attention to reporting and a range of other matters relating to the sustainability of our finances and the analysis of all of that. However, I am not being prescriptive.”
“In December 2016, the Executive agreed to the commencement of a review of the financial process to simplify financial reporting and better align budgets, Estimates and accounts. Since that time, a project team in my Department has been working with colleagues across all other Departments to implement that review. While it was initially planned that the changes would be implemented in 2020-21, that was, unfortunately, delayed, first, by the lack of a working Assembly and the inability to progress legislation and, subsequently, by the coronavirus pandemic. Implementation is now planned for 2022-23. Legislation is in progress to enable that implementation, and the Financial Reporting (Departments and Public Bodies) Bill was introduced in the Assembly on 1 June.”
“We have had broad conversations about providing the necessary support to rebuild the health service. The Prime Minister has been hosting discussions across the devolved areas on what needs to be done in the time ahead, and the deputy First Minister firmly put rebuilding the health service on the agenda with him. Some of us complained about the ongoing cuts at the time, which saw people leaving their jobs and being asked to work longer hours for less pay. Inevitably, that led to some leaving the service, others not wishing to join and a difficulty in recruiting. We need to get sufficient resource into rebuilding, and that will include the issue of wages and fair working hours for health staff.”
“It needs money not just in this year's Budget but going forward so that it can recruit to tackle the waiting lists and for broader transformation.”
“As the Member knows, I said that, if we were to end up paying the entirety of the victims' payments — we are still in discussion and dispute with Treasury on that — one scenario would be to take the money from all Departments. We have created the headroom for sufficient funds for this year to cover that cost from the Executive, but the Member will understand that the Executive are in agreement that it is not our responsibility to cover that cost. <BR /> <BR />In recent times, a discussion has been prompted on immediate action on waiting lists. One Minister had offered to reduce her budget to meet any challenges with the waiting lists. The Executive could decide to take that approach, although that would be putting money into Health, rather than taking money from it. However, Health needs recurrent funding.”
“Nonetheless, the Executive have to prioritise, and that is probably a more useful exercise in the scenario where we are coming to the end of the mandate and no party or Minister knows whether they will be back or what party will hold which portfolio in the Executive. It is much more of a blank-sheet approach to agreeing priorities across the five parties that make up the Executive and trying to set a course ahead. Hopefully, we will then get the Budget as part of the comprehensive spending review announcement to match our ambition in that regard.”
“I spoke to my Department's Budget team just this week to kick-start the discussion about how we plan and prepare for a multi-year Budget. We have to begin that preparation, and I am hopeful that the Executive can do that over the summer, beginning in early summer, to start to look at the priorities in the time ahead. As the Member correctly says, we will not know what the funding envelope is. We hope that that will come early in the autumn, but, last year, it did not come until 25 November.”
“We need the ability to plan over a number of years, certainty about resources and recurrent funding to employ the people needed to see the transformation of the health system through. The Executive are committed to that. We can only hope that the arguments that we made to the Prime Minister in the recent meeting that the deputy First Minister attended and to the Chancellor about the British Government resourcing the rebuilding of the health service coming out of the pandemic will bear fruit for us.”
“The Executive have prioritised the Department of Health. As I said, it receives almost 50% of the Budget. We met all the COVID-19 bids and set aside funding in the Budget, pending a Health assessment. We subsequently allocated further funding in the recent exercise in May. The allocation has provided some £6·4 billion to the Department of Health, including £380 million for COVID. Broken down, that includes £25 million for COVID-19 vaccine deployment, £105 million for ongoing operational response and £250 million for rebuilding. As I said, the Department has decided to use £40 million of that for waiting lists. <BR /> <BR />We are all in agreement about what Health needs; I think that that was the point of the question.”
“However, we have been able to supplement that with COVID spending, and the Executive will have a discussion in the not too distant future about waiting lists to see whether there is further in-year work that we can do to bring focus to and support for what is needed. <BR /> <BR />I have given the Health Minister an additional £250 million of COVID money this year for rebuilding the health service coming out of the pandemic, £40 million of which, I think, has been allocated by the Health Department to waiting lists, and I am hopeful that that will help. However, we know that, in the longer-term transformation process, Health will need recurrent funding that is guaranteed into the future in a multi-year Budget scenario. That is the place that we all want to get to.”
“For some time now, going right back to previous Executives and the adoption of the Bengoa report, we have agreed that we would try to take the politics out of health and that we would have a collective approach across the Executive. In that sense, it did not matter who the Health Minister was; it was a collective Executive approach. We have endeavoured to continue that through very challenging times. You will see that Health has received over half the available revenue budget. Of course, in a standstill rollover Budget situation, that is not what Health needs; it needs quite a lot more just to stand still.”
“The Health Minister and I have both called on the British Government to provide the Executive with a multi-year budget. I raised that with the Chancellor, Rishi Sunak, when I was in London last month, and he indicated his intention to announce a multi-year spending review later this year. On that basis, the Executive will shortly begin preparations for their multi-year draft Budget. Budgets are agreed by all Ministers, not just the Finance Minister. However, I will argue for priority to continue to be given to health to assist with the immediate waiting crisis and to fund longer-term transformation.”
“A LeasCheann Comhairle, with your permission, I will answer question 2 and question 12 together. <BR /> <BR />Multi-year Budgets are essential to help to plan services not just in health but right across the public sector.”
“That is being passed down to a newly created permanent secretary post. <BR /> <BR />My perspective on it is that it will be helpful for what he suggests is required. I will go back to the point in the debate this morning, and I am sure we will continue with it this afternoon, about getting into a strategic approach with a multi-annual Budget and Programme for Government outcome. That is the type of work I would want the head of the Civil Service to focus on rather than the day-to-day management of the Executive Office.”
“I do not think so, to be quite honest. Regardless of what strategic direction and approach was being developed in the Executive or, indeed, across the Civil Service, we were all in response mode this year. The priority was responding to the pandemic getting support to people who needed it and to the health service. The priority was very much focused on the day-to-day needs over the last year or 15 months. <BR /> <BR />A twin-headed role is not being developed. The aim is to have someone to head up the Executive Office as a distinct Department so that the head of the Civil Service can have that more strategic approach across all Departments, all civil servants in the public sector and the arm's-length bodies. In many ways, it allows for that more strategic approach rather than for the day-to-day management of the Executive Office.”
“However, a need has been identified, as you say, to get the right skills, balance and age profile into the Civil Service. That is a significant undertaking but is one that we are prepared and, indeed, keen to embrace. As the Department with overall responsibility for the Civil Service, we will want other Departments to come along that route with us.”
“The report highlighted a number of areas, and that could well be considered to be one of them. There is a retirement policy in the Civil Service that allows people to partially retire but to stay in work for potentially an open-ended number of years in that post. I have asked people to look at how that is being implemented. There are legal rights when people are availing themselves of early retirement. Whether that fits in with the work scheme in Departments is something that line managers and permanent secretaries need to look at again, and I have asked for some advice on that. <BR /> <BR />There is a big improvement exercise there. Let us not forget that the Civil Service has done remarkable work, particularly over the last year, across a whole range of Departments.”
“The expansion of a number of apprenticeship schemes in the Civil Service will also be important in supporting those furthest from the job market and will provide an entry route into the Civil Service. My Department is committed to expanding the number of apprenticeship schemes in the Civil Service in order to provide an alternative career entry route into the Civil Service to help to ensure that it is reflective of the society it serves.”
“The Civil Service, as an employer, is supporting the Job Start scheme that the Department for Communities recently launched. That is open to all employers and provides paid work placement opportunities lasting from six to nine months for young people aged 16 to 24 who are at risk of long-term unemployment. The NICS HR in my Department is supporting the Department for Communities as it pilots the scheme, with a specific focus on people aged 16 to 24 with disabilities, in preparation for rolling it out across the Civil Service in due course. <BR /> <BR />As well as offering opportunities across Departments to young people with disabilities, it is proposed to broaden the scheme to include other young people at risk of long-term unemployment, such as those leaving the care system.”
“Those objectives are ones that we will want to have to the fore when we are developing new ideas and new ways of dealing with the Civil Service in the time ahead.”
“As the Member will know, there is an Audit Office report on capability and capacity in the Civil Service, and one of the suggested responses to that is the idea of a fast stream to make sure that you get the right people in the right place at the right time. There is clearly a need for our Civil Service to be much more agile, flexible and representative of the community that we all collectively represent and that it works for. I am open to any of those ideas. I know that it is something that the previous permanent secretary was keen on. <BR /> <BR />We are developing a reform process for the Civil Service acting on the back of a number of reports, including that Audit Office report.”
“This gives people the opportunity to work for a number of days in a regional hub, and therefore makes the prospect of that type of career more attractive. They will be at whatever value people who get the jobs in the area —. What we are providing is the base to allow them to have a more flexible working approach. In time, that will change the make-up of the Civil Service, particularly for women, who would struggle with that amount of time travelling in and out, given that the burden of responsibility in the home often falls to them, unfortunately, but also for younger people and people from more peripheral areas who traditionally would not have been seen in the Civil Service.”
“There is scheduled engagement, and, as the Member correctly identified, Omagh was directed as one of the 10 areas being looked at first. That was based on a number of factors, including an assessment of where people travel from to work in headquarters in Belfast. Those are all moving at different speeds. I suspect that Downpatrick will be the first one on board. After that, they will roll out. I will be very happy to get him the estimated time frame for Omagh. <BR /> <BR />Relating it to the first question, traditionally, people who live in border areas in constituencies such as mine or the Member's did not apply for such jobs as the prospect of driving five days a week into Belfast was off-putting.”
“<BR /> <BR />Later this month, I will be launching a student placement scheme which will give over 100 students the opportunity to work across a range of areas in the Civil Service. As well as giving students an opportunity to develop their skills and experience, it will encourage them to consider the Civil Service as a potential career path in the future. In addition, work to expand the number of Civil Service apprenticeships is ongoing, with two apprentice recruitment exercises for procurement and civil engineering now live. Further Civil Service apprenticeships are under development. We are also developing a new management trainee scheme aimed at graduates.”
“My Department is committed to creating more jobs for young people in the Civil Service. To enable younger people and other under-represented groups to apply for posts, NICS HR in my Department has led high-volume open recruitment exercises, rather than internal promotion exercises that confined applications to existing civil servants in the grade below the vacancy, which were previously the norm. I recently launched a number of external recruitment campaigns, including one for more than 500 executive officer posts. These campaigns specifically targeted young people, using social media platforms such as Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat and advertising on digital platforms such as Spotify and Dax and on radio stations known to appeal to younger markets.”
“<BR /> <BR />The legislation is required to ensure that all public services can continue to be delivered for the remainder of this financial year. It gives legal effect to the Budget that was agreed by all Executive Ministers. To be clear, no Minister objected to the Budget and no Minister proposed an alternative allocation. <BR /> <BR />On that note, I will conclude my opening remarks. I am happy to deal with any points of principle or detail on the Budget (No. 2) Bill that Members may wish to raise.”
“The Bill will ensure that all Departments have the statutory authority to spend the cash and use the resources that they will require to deliver services for the remainder of the financial year. <BR /> <BR />Clause 2 of the Bill provides for the temporary borrowing by my Department of £5,171,400,000. That is approximately half the sum authorised for issue out of the Consolidated Fund in clause 1. I must stress that clause 2 does not provide for the issue of any additional cash out of the Consolidated Fund or convey any additional spending power. It simply enables my Department to run an effective and efficient cash-management regime. <BR /> <BR />The Bill also repeals a number of Budget Acts from 2018 and 2019. That is a normal process to remove legislation from the statute book once it is spent.”
“The cash and resources are to be spent and used on services listed in column 1 of each schedule. Those amounts are in addition to the amounts that were previously authorised by the Assembly through the Budget Act (NI) 2021 in March, represent the Executive's up-to-date expenditure plans and include the in-year allocations that the Executive have agreed as part of the final Budget process. In addition, as I explained to the Assembly yesterday, they include some items that are not in the Budget, namely New Decade, New Approach and confidence-and-supply funding, which has now been confirmed by Treasury, and funding for the extension of business support schemes that are delivered by my Department and the Department for the Economy.”
“I shall endeavour to keep to that direction. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will authorise the cash and use of resources on services to allow Departments and other bodies to operate for the remainder of the financial year and to carry out the functions and deliver the services that are set out in schedules1 and 2 to the Bill. The detail of how the cash and resources will be used is set out in the Main Estimates. That document was laid in the Assembly on 27 May. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will authorise the issue of the sum of £10,342,800,000 from the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund and the use of resources totalling £11,843,690,000 by Departments and certain other bodies listed in schedules 1 and 2 to the Bill in the year ending 31 March 2022, which is this financial year.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Assembly's Standing Order 32 directs that the Second Stage debate:”
“The Second Stage debate follows the Assembly's approval yesterday of the Supply resolution for the Main Estimates for 2021-22. Accelerated passage of the Bill is necessary in order to ensure Royal Assent before any Departments reach the cash limits for 2021-22 that were set in the Vote on Account. I am very grateful to the Finance Committee for confirming that, in line with Standing Order 42, the Bill can proceed under accelerated passage, and I thank the Committee for agreeing to that. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly's agreement of the Executive's final Budget for 2021-22 on 25 May allows me to bring the Budget (No. 2) Bill to the Assembly to seek the legislative authority for the expenditure of Departments and other bodies for the remainder of the financial year.”
“I beg to introduce the Budget (No. 2) Bill [NIA 24/17-22], which is a Bill to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of a certain sum for the service of the year ending 31 March 2022; to appropriate that sum for specified purposes; to authorise the Department of Finance to borrow on the credit of that sum; to authorise the use for the public service of certain resources (including accruing resources) for that year; and to repeal certain spent provisions.”
“Failure to pass this Supply resolution would put at risk the continuation of public services for the remainder of the financial year. I therefore commend the Main Estimates 2021-2022 to the Assembly, and I ask Members to support the motion.”
“They have the ability to spend money themselves, and I am sure that they can answer to that. The overall point is the same, which is that a standstill Budget is an effective reduction. That is what we are dealing with here. <BR /> <BR />I will draw my remarks to a close, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank you and other Members for your patience. The Assembly's approval of the motion on the Main Estimates for 2021-22 is a crucial stage in securing the public expenditure that Departments need to continue to deliver services during this critical time.”
“2) Bill, and I look forward to hearing propositions from you in relation to how you would do things differently. All of the Executive agreed the Budget without a vote and without division at all. Every Executive Minister supported it. If every one of us is wrong, please tell us what you would have done differently with the same amount of money that we have to use. <BR /> <BR />A number of other points were raised. As usual, Jim Allister thinks that the problem for the health service is funding for the Irish language, but that, I suppose, is a debate for another day. Gerry Carroll asked a number of questions. A lot of them were about other Ministers, who will have to answer in relation to their areas. Ministers have autonomy within their Departments.”
“All of that would be relevant if there was a vote on the Budget in the Executive, but there was not. Your Minister did not vote against it or speak against it. I was in Executives with previous SDLP Ministers. The previous leader voted against the Budget. I think that Mr Storey was in the Executive when she disagreed with the Budget and voted against it. I think that her party even voted against the Budget. None of that is relevant, because you did not oppose it. <BR /> <BR />If you are going to say that all of the decisions that we have taken are wrong and that the Budget needs to be reconfigured and the priorities are all wrong, there is an obligation on you to tell us where you will get the money from. As I said, there is an open-ended debate tomorrow on the Second Stage of the Budget (No.”
“<BR /> <BR />We will have an open-ended debate tomorrow, so I look forward to the propositions about doing things differently. If you want to do things differently, take the Budget amount that we have, take the tables and work your way through them tonight and tell me where you would take money off and where you would put it in. I will be happy to listen to that tomorrow. You will have an open Floor tomorrow, so you can take all the time that you want to respond to that. There is no point in talking about things like reconfiguring the Budget unless you bring forward propositions to do just that.”
“Sinead McLaughlin, I think, said, first, that I had said that there was nothing to see and that we were not roaring and shouting: I do not know anybody who has complained more about a lack of finances in this Building than me. They say that we are accepting this and that we are carbon-copying one year into the next: I have been to multiple meetings with Treasury, alongside Finance Ministers from Scotland and Wales. I was in the Treasury three weeks ago talking to the Chancellor about the lack of budget that we have. At the meeting with the Prime Minister last week, the deputy First Minister raised the issue of rebuilding the health service and the need for substantial investment. There is absolutely no way that we have said that this Budget is fine or that there is nothing to look at here.”