Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“This exercise, along with other exercises in terms of the Civil Service estate and a new approach to blended working arrangements, can contribute to that idea of recruiting more people but with more diversity in age and other profiles such as disability and ethnic minorities — the type of diversity that we need in the Civil Service to reflect society as a whole.”
“That is part of the ongoing work. It is up to Departments to identify their individual workforces. We have a broader responsibility in the wider reform of the Civil Service to make sure that it is accessible and that we are trying to attract younger people. We have been having conversations about the idea of apprenticeship schemes in the Civil Service, and I know that the Department for the Economy is keen on that. We want to encourage a uniform approach across all Departments so that here is not an ad hoc approach to this. <BR /> <BR />There is a recognition that the recruitment exercise that is required can infuse more diversity and, I suppose, alter the age profile of the Civil Service as a whole. There is a recognition, as I said in answer to a previous question, that there is a substantial amount of work to be done there.”
“NICS HR continues to plan and deliver recruitment competitions to fill those vacancies, working with Departments to seek to prioritise, agree and plan to fill the most urgent posts. Since November, NICS HR has filled over 1,500 vacancies.”
“Each Department is responsible for managing its resources, both financial and staff. When a Department identifies a vacancy that it needs filled, the request is referred to NICS HR in my Department to initiate the process to fill the post. At the end of March, my Department had been asked to fill over 3,000 posts across the Civil Service that had been confirmed as affordable by the relevant Departments. <BR /> <BR />Approximately 1,900 of those posts are general service posts. Around 1,000 are at administrative officer, staff officer and deputy principal grade, for which there are live recruitment competitions with available appointees and/or selection activity in progress. A further 1,250 posts are a wide range of non-general service specialist posts.”
“Rather than continue, when a question arose, LPS was obliged to investigate whether the payments had been made properly. I know that that raises concerns for a lot of businesses, but we also have a responsibility to the public purse to make sure that payments are made correctly and that, where they have been made in error, there is an attempt to recover them.”
“Payments have been made basically every day. Some were held back because there were queries about whether people had been paid wrongly, had perhaps been overpaid or had benefited from two different sets of grant support. In a number of cases, Land and Property Services informed people that they were investigating that and gave them an opportunity to provide additional information. In some cases, there will have to be a recovery of money, although, if another grant is available, they can offset that payment and basically deduct it from whatever grant they may well get. <BR /> <BR />There is ongoing work. It is a marginal amount. In the overall scheme, about 1·6% of payments were possibly made in error, and there is an effort under way to recover that. That has slowed down some of the top-up payments.”
“We need to do all collectively in our power to make sure that we have somewhere that people want to come to over the summer months and that businesses can get the best benefit that they can from that.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recognise that a lot of the hospitality sector, particularly in the Member's constituency on the north coast, is very reliant on tourism. International tourism will be restricted again this year, but there was a substantial benefit last year that the Minister for the Economy advised us of, which was that a substantial number of visitors came to stay north of the border, many for the first time. It is in all our interests to have a peaceful time in the run-up to summer and a peaceful summer and not to discourage visitors from coming north, because a lot of those businesses will be very reliant on business on the island of Ireland this year.”
“As the Member will know, the primary responsibility for tourism and the economy is with the Department for the Economy. We have had discussions on the large hospitality support scheme that the Minister for the Economy is running. That has expanded somewhat, and we keep in close contact because, at various times, there has been overlap or, certainly, close contact between some of the schemes that we have been running. Bear it in mind that the Department of Finance does not do economic support — that is not our job — but we have taken it up during the pandemic. We have kept in close contact with the Department for the Economy, and we supported in full the bid that the Minister for the Economy made for economic recovery.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also recognise that there will continue to be mitigations for all businesses and that will restrict them, but we are limited in what we can do. LRSS is based on regulations, so, if a business is open, it is not entitled to payment. However, the Minister for the Economy's economic recovery plan received full financial support from the Executive, so we expect that and a combination of the ongoing rates relief to be of some assistance to businesses in the time ahead.”
“Yes. We had money set aside because, until last Thursday, we were not sure what decisions the Executive would take on reopening. In previous experience, when retail had some partial reopening and could do click and collect, we continued to pay out to the retail sector under LRSS because we recognised that it was still significantly hampered from doing full business. Similarly, with hospitality and, I think, gyms, we have recognised that, even if there is a partial or outdoor reopening or, in the case of gyms, an ability to do one-on-one training, they continue to be substantially restricted in the time ahead. So, up to 24 May, which is the indicative date that the Executive have given for a full reopening of hospitality, we intend to pay out to those businesses.”
“To date, over £272 million has been issued to almost 13,000 businesses through the localised restrictions support scheme. Almost every one of the eligible businesses is now fully up to date with the payments that they are entitled to for the period of restrictions up to 14 April. Land and Property Services (LPS) will issue further payments this week to cover businesses for their entitlement up to the reopening dates agreed by the Executive last week. <BR /> <BR />Payments are on hold to a small number of applications that are being investigated because a concern has been identified about their eligibility or the possibility of double funding with another grant scheme. LPS has issued correspondence to those businesses explaining the situation and providing them with the opportunity to appeal or to provide additional information.”
“The Member will know that I will be the accompanying Minister on that. The Minister for the Economy and I, along with our counterparts from the South, had to signal to the North/South Ministerial Council administration sector that we were available. As far as I am aware, the signal was given last week that all Ministers would be available for the meeting, so I expect it to go ahead on Wednesday afternoon as scheduled.”
“We also need to ensure that financial institutions that, not that long ago, were the beneficiaries of support from public finances make decisions that are in the interests of the economic recovery from Brexit and the pandemic and continue to hold them to them. We do not have regulatory authority over financial institutions here, but we need to ensure, as we have been doing, that we engage with them and encourage them to see the role that they have to play in the economic recovery. When they were in difficult positions, everyone moved to support them, so there is a requirement on them to do something similar at this time.”
“My answer will be a broad one, because the question goes beyond the detail of the substantive question that I was asked. <BR /> <BR />I very much recognise that. It is an Executive responsibility, alongside the Government in Dublin and the British Government through the North/South and east-west arrangements, to ensure that the damage that has been done by Brexit be mitigated as far as possible. In that regard, the agreement between the British Government and the European Commission on protocol arrangements has gone some way to undoing some of the damage. Undoubtedly, Brexit will have a negative impact across this island in particular and, I imagine, in the longer term, in Britain, although that is very much a matter for it. <BR /> <BR />We need to be protective and ensure that the arrangements that we have work.”
“<BR /> <BR />These are ambitious plans that have been talked about for a long time. I hope that the involvement of the councils and universities and the endorsement of and encouragement from the Administrations North and South will see some advancement of the plans. The benefits that will flow from them across the Belfast-to-Dublin corridor and beyond are undoubted.”
“The benefits have long been recognised. Back when I was the Minister with responsibility for transport, it was recognised, particularly at North/South engagements, that the ambition for a high-speed and more frequent service between Dublin and Belfast would be beneficial to both cities and all of the areas in between. With that and with a broader rail development from, as I said, Derry to Dublin, Cork, Limerick and other destinations, there will be opportunities to grow indigenous businesses, establish clusters of key sectors, lever the appetite for collaboration and use the corridor as a driving force for economic development in that region and across the island generally. It should assist with securing high-value-added jobs while enabling a balanced distribution of its benefits and equality of opportunity for all our citizens.”
“My Department is, of course, content to play its part as the councils take their economic development work on the corridor forward.”
“First, I commend the eight councils and two universities along the corridor for coming together to produce this landmark report, which showed the significant opportunities to be gained from working together in that way. It is important that the corridor drive balanced economic growth across the island. For example, a high-speed Belfast-to-Dublin train should be part of an all-Ireland rail network that includes Derry, Cork and Limerick. <BR /> <BR />I understand that the councils' next step will be to establish an oversight and governance board that will develop a programme of works. That is what is needed now alongside an action plan so that the corridor can form part of an investment-led recovery from COVID and Brexit.”
“It is a very broad issue, and we could spend a long time talking about it. These things are interrelated and complement each other. In the longer term, people will not need to spend a couple of hours a day travelling to work, which will allow more people and a greater variety of people, such as those who are under-represented in the Civil Service, to apply for jobs. We are looking closely at all the issues that the Member mentioned. There is a need, and a number of reports, such as the RHI report and the Audit Office report, looked at the make-up and capacity of the Civil Service. Significant work needs to be done, and we intend to bring that forward. These developments will assist with that, because they open up more opportunities for a broader range of people to be employed in the Civil Service.”
“Each one is different and probably has different accommodation requirements. They are based on studies from where people were travelling into Belfast. That focused attention on where the first run was needed. There will not be fixed desks, so it is not an alternative place to work. It is somewhere where people can work for a number of days a week.”
“That will depend, because they are all different set-ups. The Member may be more familiar with the hub in Downpatrick, which we intend to do at an earlier stage. Some are in development phase, and we are talking to some councils about future development. The initial 10 hubs in the roll-out are almost ready to go or expected to be ready within two years, I think. The response has been overwhelmingly positive, because the hubs not only allow people to work closer to home, save travel time and help to reduce carbon emissions but allow them to contribute to their local economy and manage their work-life balance better given that they are not spending as much time in cars. We will look forward to assisting and improving productivity. I expect that, when we get those 10 hubs in place, we will look at more in the future.”
“The Department of Finance has done an analysis, or survey, of its staff. There has been an overwhelmingly positive response to homeworking across most of the Department's workforce. I am sure that that is not unique and is reflected across the Civil Service in general. With the challenges of the pandemic and lockdown, people have recognised the fact that blended working, where some work can be done from home, some in the regional hubs that will be developed, some in headquarters or some in city or town centres, affords staff more scope to manage their responsibilities. It has been positive and positively received. It accelerates lessons that were already beginning to be learned, and it will probably accelerate a response to those lessons in future workforce planning.”
“<BR /> <BR />It will open up a lot of opportunities. It will, undoubtedly, allow us to rationalise the Civil Service and save more. It should yield savings, but that is not the primary driver behind all of this. We want a more effective and productive working environment. Regional hubs will not only allow that and contribute more to local economies but allow an exchange between local government and central government personnel to create more space for joined-up and connected government. <BR /> <BR />There are real benefits to come from this. I am loath to put figures on it. It will undoubtedly yield savings, but its major importance relates to how people work and how a greater variety of people, particularly women and those who are under-represented in the Civil Service, can access potential opportunities.”
“It is very hard to quantify savings. If you put out a figure, that becomes the target. This is much more than that, as the Member identified. It is about the responsibilities that people have at home and in caring situations. Perhaps, in the longer term, it will be about the willingness of people to apply for jobs that are Belfast-based and involve travelling for an hour or two a day, and it could be even more than that if they are coming from further west to work five days a week in a Department's headquarters. I have no doubt that this will change the nature of work. It will open it up more to women to whom, unfortunately, the primary caring function falls and to people who live in the further regions of this part of Ireland and who are further away from their workplace than those living in the urban centres.”
“<BR /> <BR />We must look at not only the benefit for individual civil servants and workers but what the Executive are required to spend on the Civil Service estate. If the nature of work is changing and technology allows more remote working, we have a duty, for the public services that we want to support, to ensure that we are not spending money on the Civil Service estate that is not required. It is a balance between all those things. No doubt, people will go back to work in the not too distant future, but we have to ensure that it is in line with the health advice and that the new way of working will, ultimately, be of benefit to public finances and individual workers.”
“First, any return to the workplace will be guided by the health advice that the Executive as a whole will agree. The advice from the Department of Health and the health adviser in the Executive is still to work from home where possible, so that continues to be the case. Undoubtedly, the whole experience of the pandemic has accelerated a trend that was already developing in how people work, and we have to be mindful of that. Civil servants can now work in a blended situation: they can be at home, in a regional location or in headquarters. It will not significantly affect the Civil Service footprint in Belfast, for instance, as there will still be a requirement for a large number of civil servants to work out of offices. However, it changes the office accommodation requirements, and we have a responsibility to look at that.”
“Staff in the Department of Finance have continued to deliver essential services while also delivering to thousands of businesses unprecedented support through COVID funding, including rates relief, a range of business grants and support for airports and hospices. The Civil Service will adopt a blended approach to home and remote working, which will depend on the individual departmental requirements and job role. A remote and homeworking policy is being developed in consultation with trade unions. The Department also recently announced plans for a number of Civil Service regional hubs. These will enable civil servants to work closer to home, reduce travel time and promote regional economic balance.”
“With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I will group questions 2 and 11. I place on record my continued thanks to civil servants for their hard work and flexibility in response to the challenges of delivering services during the pandemic. At very short notice this time last year, the majority of civil servants moved from the office to homeworking as the pandemic emerged. I am encouraged by feedback from my Department on the positive impact of homeworking on many of our staff, who feel that they now have a better balance between work and home commitments. <BR /> <BR />Responsibility for the performance and productivity of all staff, including those who work from home, rests with managers in each of the Departments.”
“This seeks energy performance standards significantly in excess of the building regulations minimum.”
“My Department is responsible for managing the Civil Service office estate, which equates to around 4% of the total public-sector energy consumption here. Through the office estate energy efficiency carbon reduction plans, we aim to achieve cumulative energy savings and consequential reductions in carbon. Those savings support and feed in to the wider energy management strategy and action plan to 2030 for central government introduced by the Department for the Economy. The use of energy-efficient installations has been incorporated into Civil Service accommodation and standards specifications. Furthermore, the Department's procurement guidance, which applies to all Departments, expects that any new or refurbished building should undergo the BRE Environmental Assessment Method appraisal.”
“The uplift that we are looking at is considering significant improvements to the limiting fabric standards for new buildings, and it is anticipated that there will be further improvements in the subsequent uplifts with that in mind. Sudden and extreme uplifts in performance standards could halt the industry, and that is why a phased solution towards a very high standard is proposed.”
“The building regulations set standards only for when building work takes place, and grant schemes and programmes to encourage retrofit are principally a matter for other Departments to lead on. The energy strategy cross-departmental group is looking at the matter. Our building regulations standards are for work to existing buildings and are largely in line with those in England. We will consider the standards in place in the South and any proposed uplifts in other regions that will come into effect in 2022 as part of our programme. We will also look at the issue of retrofit within that programme. We are mindful of the aim for zero-emission building stock by 2050 and that new buildings should not contribute to the need for further retrofit. Therefore, the regulations need to be right and issues with buildings need to be resolved.”
“As I said, the Department's building regulations group is consulting on doing significant uplifts in relation to that and is addressing all the issues. We have to fit in with the Executive's overall carbon reduction targets. It is not just in the short term — we have some catch-up to do in the short term — but in the long to medium term. The officials were to brief the Committee on the undertakings. However, we are more than happy to consult others who have an interest in the area. If the Member contacts the Department, I will be happy to meet her group.”
“I have also provided the Finance Committee with outline proposals for an ambitious phased plan of uplifts over the longer term. Those have recently been published in the Department for the Economy's energy strategy options consultation, and my Department will consult on them in due course.”
“My officials continue to engage with the Building Regulations Advisory Committee (NIBRAC) and the specialist technical subcommittee to bring forward an uplift in that area as quickly as possible. There are a number of detailed and interconnected considerations on issues such as the assessment software, outworkings of proposals emerging from other regions, renewables and local grid consequences, which are being considered alongside a cost-benefit assessment of options. My officials briefed the Finance Committee on some of the details of that last week and have been invited to provide a similar briefing to the next meeting of the all-party group on climate change. Every effort is being and will be made to progress an uplift in this Assembly mandate, if possible. I will provide notice of any consultations in due course.”
“I get the political points that the Member makes about people who are struggling; I absolutely get that. The three priorities for this were protecting the health service, supporting vulnerable people and supporting businesses and workers, and that is what we have allocated the money for. He says that we cannot spend the money, but we have just spent the whole time for the statement speaking about how we have done so, against the odds and with warnings of doom from very many Members over the last three or four months that we would not spend it. We have managed to do that, and he should at least acknowledge that. I certainly concur with his points about people who are struggling, and we need to continue to provide support there.”
“The whole purpose of the statement was to say that we had spent the money that we currently have. I am not sure whether the Member was listening to the start of the statement. He should not underestimate what we managed to do. I am not blowing my own trumpet; it was departmental officials who managed to do it. We ensured that not only was the Budget that we were allocated last year spent but the £3·3 billion that we received on top of that was allocated. A lot of that money came at a very late stage with a lack of notice to us. It came after the summer, when we were told that that was all that we were getting for the year; we then received a further four tranches of money.”
“A number of measures are in place so that we can work with other Departments to make sure that, if further moneys are due to them, they can be deducted from the payments. Some of it will be direct clawback. The question then arises of whether we can retain the money. My understanding is that we can, but, if that is incorrect, I will be happy to inform the Member.”
“<BR /> <BR />My understanding is that, because we have allocated that funding, we can retain it, but I will confirm that with the Member. The focus has been on ensuring that errors are corrected. <BR /> <BR />There is flexibility to have a working arrangement with those who have to pay back. There is also flexibility across other schemes to make sure that, if someone was paid out under our scheme and received money from another Department, they will be paid minus the amount they have already received so that we do not have to recover money from them directly. There is a range of measures. I know that LPS was in front of the Committee last week. I am not sure what level of discussion there was about that, but it is probably worth LPS coming back to the Committee, at some stage in the not-too-distant future, to brief you on that.”
“It is a separate exercise. You are right: the more schemes are done at pace, the more potential there is, human nature and systems being what they are, for mistakes to be made. The LRSS paid out hundreds of millions — I think that it was £290 million — and I think that 1·6% or 1·7% was identified as having been paid in error. That is remarkable, given the amount of money that was paid out and the haste with which those schemes were put in place. The Member is correct: there are attempts to recoup some of that. For some who received an allocation incorrectly but are due another allocation — the people who will benefit from some of the schemes that I just referred to did not receive LRSS — we can deduct the amount that they owe us from what they will get. It is complex and there is a different set of circumstances in each.”
“As I said in response to the previous question, the £50,000 scheme for businesses that did not get the £10,000 or £25,000 grant last year because they were too big has opened. I think that some of those are being paid out today. Regulations for the schemes need to go through the Finance Committee and be passed in the House to do that, and the portal needs to be up and working for the ones with an application. The intention is to have those done in the coming days or, at most, weeks and get the support paid out to those businesses as quickly as we possibly can.”
“One element of that is the £50,000 grant for businesses that were above the net asset value (NAV) level last year and did not get that support. I think that some businesses started to receive that today. The other elements of that scheme will be done in the coming weeks. There are some further regulations that need to be sorted out on them, but we will do those as quickly as we can.”
“We will continue to press the case for that, because the furlough scheme in particular was critical, not only to businesses, but to workers. <BR /> <BR />While we hope to have a good summer, we are a long way from being clear of the pandemic and its impacts. I have spoken to banks and other institutions, and there is expectation that maybe there will be a glut of spending when things open up but that that could taper off again in the autumn. I think that that is when businesses will face the real crunch. While we will be doing all that we can in the time ahead, as I said in the responses to the statement, clearly they will need continued supports, so we will continue that conversation with the Treasury and the Government.”
“Officials continue to have that discussion, and I hope to get over there in the next week or two to have a discussion, certainly with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury if not with the Chancellor. You will know that the extension of the furlough scheme, which we pressed for a number of times, has now gone to the end of the summer, albeit, I think, with an increased employer contribution over the summer months. <BR /> <BR />There are some discussions about whether Treasury will try to amend the loan scheme slightly, I think. I have seen some reference to a sort of a pay-as-you-earn (PAYE) thing, so rather than businesses being expected to pay back loans, if they can demonstrate that they can afford to pay back more as they begin to do more business, there will be some flexibility.”
“We have fully funded that economic recovery package, and I hope that that has a beneficial effect for businesses as they begin to open up.”
“As I said, they are governed by the regulations, which mean that if businesses can open up, the regulations do not permit them to continue to be paid beyond that, although all businesses will be subject to some kind of social-distancing restrictions. <BR /> <BR />We have declared that LRSS will continue to be paid. I am not certain what the position is with CRBSS; that might be a question for your Committee to ask the Department about. As you are aware, we fully funded the economic recovery package that the Economy Minister brought forward, and we will continue to support businesses through the rate relief for the rest of this financial year to next April. We are trying our best to continue to support them, albeit with much less resource than we had last year.”
“We need to reconsider whether cheap is king in all this. I hope that that conversation takes place; it needs to take place fairly soon, because if we want those people to stay in the frame so that they can step up and repurpose manufacturing, they need to have some sense that there is business for them in it.”
“The procurement side in the Health Department should engage with the manufacturing sector, perhaps through the Department for the Economy and Invest and others, to say, "OK, the cost of those products may be more here, but, first, there are ethical issues in terms of their supply. Are all our supply chains on the other side of the world meeting the ethical requirements that we have and should continue to have? Is there security of supply?".”
“<BR /> <BR />We have been having this conversation in the Procurement Board, which I chair, but a further conversation needs to be had around the Executive table. Where companies stepped up and proved that they could provide us with critical supply and that supply was only an hour's journey by road away from us rather than thousands of miles away on the other side of the world, those companies need certainty that that sort of contract will continue. If they are going to repurpose manufacturing capability, they need certainty that there will be contracts to be bid for and won in the future.”