Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“<BR /> <BR />Under the fund, multi-year grants of up to £100,000 will be available to individual organisations to build core resilience and develop their business models to allow them to become more sustainable. It is anticipated that funding will be awarded for between one and three years. The ability to offer three years of guaranteed funding will be welcomed by many community and voluntary groups. <BR /> <BR />As well as providing those flexible grants, the fund will provide for larger region-wide or sector-specific investments that will enable collaboration, leverage in other funding and develop new and creative approaches to sustainability. Those might focus on specific themes such as volunteering, digital capacity, diversity and inclusion or explore new social investment or collaborative models.”
“The National Lottery Community Fund played a key role in delivering the COVID-19 charities fund and will bring its expertise to the delivery of the dormant accounts fund. <BR />The dormant accounts fund is not an emergency response fund. A key principle of the £20·5 million fund is that it will be used to support services that would not normally attract public money. That provides a real opportunity for a range of organisations, including community and voluntary groups and social enterprises, to access funding. The dormant accounts fund will support the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector to be more resilient by funding activity that increases capacity and sustainability. We know that there are organisations that are ready to start looking to the longer term, and that is where the dormant accounts fund comes in.”
“With funding in place to secure the survival of voluntary and community groups and a vaccine starting to be rolled out, dormant accounts funds can be used as part of the longer-term recovery from COVID. That is in line with the original themes of capacity, resilience and sustainability. <BR /> <BR />Extensive engagement with a wide range of stakeholders has taken place to inform the strategic direction of the fund. In May 2019, the Department of Finance hosted a strategic insight lab with a wide range of stakeholders from across the third sector to identify the themes that the fund should address. In September 2019, the Department directed the National Lottery Community Fund to establish a scheme to use dormant accounts funds here.”
“I wish to provide Members with an update on the dormant accounts fund. Today, I laid the dormant accounts fund strategic plan in the Assembly Library. That is required under Part 1 of schedule 3 to the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008. This is a significant step that will enable the £20·5 million fund to open for applications in January. <BR /> <BR />COVID-19 has challenged every part of our society. Voluntary and community groups have played a vital role in responding to COVID by providing services to vulnerable people while facing a loss of income and fundraising revenue. That is why the Executive allocated £29·8 million to support the community and voluntary sector through the emergency charities and social enterprises funds.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is a technical but, nonetheless, useful change to the law, which will greatly assist those in need in our community to access property on a death without the need to seek probate in the circumstances that I have set out. I commend the motion to the House.”
“I thank the Chair of the Committee and all the Committee members who spoke in the debate for their support for the change to the legislation and for their work in analysing the proposition before them. I concur with the views that the Chair and others expressed in relation to the credit union movement. I am a member of a credit union and know that it provides a valuable service, particularly to those who, although they have little, what they have is precious to them; and for assisting families during bereavements. As Members said, the point of the change is to ensure that timely and correct support is available to families.”
“Having had the opportunity to consider those issues, I think that raising the sum to £20,000 is proportionate and takes account of inflation and the concerns that stakeholders raised. <BR /> <BR />Article 2 of the order, which revokes the 2004 order, therefore increases the small payment limit to £20,000. By virtue of section 6(2) of the 1967 Act, the order applies to deaths occurring or nominations affected after the expiration of a period of one month beginning on the date on which the order comes into operation. <BR /> <BR />This is a short, technical yet important piece of legislation that will assist many people during difficult times. I therefore recommend that the Administration of Estates (Small Payments) (Increase of Limit) Order (Northern Ireland) 2020 be affirmed.”
“That adds costs, which takes away from the amount of the estate that is left to distribute. For those with minimal resources, those additional costs can be significant and can delay access to the estate at the most difficult of times, not least now in the light of the COVID-19 pandemic. In some cases, beneficiaries may have to forgo receiving the whole amount to which they are entitled, because the cost of obtaining a grant of probate is greater than the amount in excess of £10,000 that is available. <BR /> <BR />Raising the small payment sum will assist with some of the difficulties that beneficiaries may experience with the deceased's estate. It will result in a quicker and more efficient process of the payment of money to nominated persons or beneficiaries.”
“The primary legislation vests the power to make this order in my Department. However, as the legislation relates to bodies associated with several other Departments, Executive colleagues were consulted, and they have approved the proposed increase in limit. <BR /> <BR />The limit was originally set at £500 in 1967. It has been reviewed and increased a number of times since, most recently in 2004, when the limit was raised to the current figure of £10,000. Sixteen years have therefore passed since the last review, and a recent short and targeted consultation revealed that the existing limit is posing problems for affected parties. It is now much more frequent for amounts of a little over £10,000 to be left by a deceased person, meaning that beneficiaries need to seek a grant of probate.”
“The purpose of this legislation is to raise the limit on the amount of property that certain organisations are permitted to distribute on the death of a member without the necessity for probate or other proof of title or where the deceased has nominated a specific beneficiary. <BR /> <BR />The Administration of Estates (Small Payments) Act (NI) 1967 is the relevant legislation that falls within the remit of my Department. The legislation applies to certain payments made by industrial and provident societies, credit unions, trade unions, councils and Departments. It allows the organisation to release money to a nominee or beneficiary up to a fixed value to which the deceased or the deceased's personal representative was entitled without that nominee or beneficiary having to prove title or seek a grant of probate through the probate office.”
“I think that that will be the value of having those various sectors, and they in turn represent the voice of the industries and the sectors that they come from. Also, we have that function of hearing confidentially from people out in the world where people procure and enact these contracts. That will all be valuable, but, on local spend, it is about getting the balance and the threshold right on that.”
“That speaks to the previous conversations that we have been having on all that. I think that it is about finding a balance between ensuring that you get transparency and accountability and value for money at a local level with small contracts. As I said, four out of five contracts are won locally, but that, obviously, depends on their value. That is why there is value in having people in from the various sectors. You then have people who are practitioners of how procurement works. It is one thing having a very good policy that we can all support, but it is another thing to see how the experience of that impacts on the ground and how it works in practice rather than in theory on the paper that it is developed on.”
“One of its primary functions is to ensure that public spend gets value for money, so, where practices at a local level clearly do not give value for money, we have to look at that, but we also have to make sure that we have that transparency and accountability built in.”
“It is interesting that people in procurement will not have heard the stories that all of us, as elected representatives, hear in conversations with school principals, who say, "I could get a local guy or woman to fix something, and it would cost a tenth of the price". There is a threshold, but I think that we need to examine it to see whether it is sufficient in its application. <BR /> <BR />As I said to Jemma Dolan, there is a balance to be found between transparency and accountability, with people not giving contracts in schools or any other public-sector procurement operation to their brothers-in-law or cousins, and value for money. Procurement is about value for money.”
“Firstly, yes. The Executive have targets on green outcomes and carbon-emission reduction. I would like to see those reflected, as they should be, in our procurement policy, because the Executive cannot just argue for those things and then spend £3 billion and not try to use it to effect the outcome of their own policies. I think that that will be a key component in procurement. The Living Wage Foundation has outlined the definition of a living wage, and that is the definition that I work to.”
“It has to be done within regulations, but we need to do procurement in a way that provides maximum support to the local economy.”
“You tend to find that, depending on the size of the contract, it can attract more international attention, and contracts can be framed in such a way as to be broken up for the various sectors, which perhaps makes them more within the range of local employers and local companies. Of course, you have to do that in a way that is correct under the guidelines and rules, and we are still not sure what the hangover from the exit from Europe will mean for state aid and all those rules. Even within those guidelines and rules, there are ways of doing procurement that can support local companies as much as possible. As it stands, local companies get about four out of every five contracts, but, of course, it is the quality and size of those contracts that needs to be measured. Where that can be achieved, it is a desirable outcome.”
“As I say, because we now have people from various sectors on the Procurement Board, they can see whether that filters down to where it is supposed to achieve an outcome on the ground. We want to hear from people in the social enterprise sector and in all the other sectors to ensure that those polices are followed through on. If there is an opportunity to legislate — I would like to do it — I certainly will.”
“First, if I can legislate in this mandate, I will — I give the Member that assurance — but I want to ensure that we have sufficient time to do that. He will know that, if we start a legislative process and it does not conclude, it falls off the shelf at the end of the mandate and we have to start all over again in a new mandate, with whomever might be in the post. Since I came into the Department, it has been my intention to do that, but other priorities, such as responding to the pandemic, took over. <BR /> <BR />In my view, if the policies and guidance notes that the Procurement Board send to the Executive are approved, they will have Executive approval as a policy. Each Department — the permanent secretary and staff — will then be obliged to follow through on that, as will arm's-length bodies and the agencies.”
“Yes. We need to get that balance right. At Question Time last week, I said that many elected representatives can give examples of where things are procured for significantly higher prices than they can be got for locally. There is a balance to be struck between ensuring that there is transparency and accountability in buying arrangements — public money is being spent — and making sure that there is flexibility at a local level to get supplies for the best price that they can be got for locally, while contributing to the local economy. The Procurement Board will therefore undertake to strike the right balance.”
“We have asked officials to explore the possibility. If there is an opportunity to do social value legislation in the time left, I will be happy to do it.”
“Social value includes a range of things, such as a greener approach to doing business or paying the minimum wage, and many private sector companies wish to engage in that. If that was a part of the scoring for the award of contracts, many in the private sector would embrace it and not see it as a burden. I am sure that the Member has had the same experience of speaking to the many people who want to deliver better outcomes for society as well as securing contracts and improving their business. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, any social value policy is much stronger when underpinned by legislation. The Department's procurement side has been very much involved in assisting other Departments to get supplies over the COVID period, and I am not certain whether there is enough time left in the mandate to legislate.”
“I have to say that, in my experience, Mr O'Dowd's contribution was not the most surreal thing ever to have happened in the Chamber — not by a long shot”
“I thank the Member for his question. He squeezed in a few questions there himself”
“It is the board's responsibility to challenge that where necessary.”
“Success will be measured by the consistent application of policy and guidance notes. In the past, we have found that, sometimes, consistency did not filter down through Departments. The approval of guidance notes and procurement policy by the Executive gives them a strength that they did not have. There is an obligation on Executive Ministers and accounting officers in Departments to follow through on that. Monitoring by the board will ensure compliance and find where that is not happening. As outlined, we will have representatives from the sector. If the board finds that the policies are not coming through at the bottom end or that compliance is not the practical experience of people applying for contracts and engaging in the provision of services, we will quickly hear about that.”
“Business relationships are at the heart of procurement, and people are often reluctant to speak out in case damage is caused to those relationships as a consequence. We want an alternative measure that enables suppliers to raise concerns confidentially, and we want the matter to be independently reviewed. That will be a key part of it, and, hopefully, it will have the effect of offsetting the possibility of people going to court. While people are entitled to go to court, it undoubtedly holds up processes and has an impact on budgetary spending.”
“Yes, as I referenced in my response to Mr Storey, litigation is really the end point. It happens when someone is dissatisfied with how a contract has been awarded. Litigation holds up capital projects in particular and can have a significant and detrimental impact on economic activity generally. That is not to say that people are not entitled to go to court if they feel strongly that they have a case to make, and we would not deny them that. However, there is an opportunity to have some kind of mitigation process at an earlier stage, which is why I will ask the board to consider an alternative service to allow suppliers to raise their concerns and, in some instances, to provide a private opportunity for them to do so.”
“That would be an effective way to achieve that. If the focus is just on price and quality, we lose the ability to give proper consideration to social value. Social value is about many things. It can be about a more green approach to construction, as well as having social outcomes in employment by ensuring that there is spend in certain areas and access for people from communities and social enterprises that can provide services. There is a whole range of measures. Scoring contracts in a way that guarantees that social value is a component part of procurement is an effective way to do that.”
“We will have to test that as we go along, but I hope that, in the not too distant future, the Member will recognise that there is a different way to do things.”
“<BR /> <BR />The clear intention is for a new start. It is a reconstituted board that comes from a different place as regards who is involved. We want people who represent industry — construction or SMEs — and for them to engage with their sectors in order to bring forward their views. The intention is to create a facility so that people can give information privately on any complaints. Previously, people might have felt that, if they made a genuine, legitimate complaint publicly about the main contractor, that might be detrimental to their ability to do future work. We want to create a facility in which people have an opportunity to register issues with the board in a way that protects them from any blowback, if that were the case with relationships in contracts. <BR /> <BR />This is a genuine attempt to do things differently.”
“However, there is a clear intention. This is not just a name change for the board; it is a change of personnel. Procurement is being taken out of the hands of permanent secretaries. That is not to cast any aspersions on the people who served on the board; I thank them for their service. It is to bring in, as the Member says, expertise from various sectors. Among the people on the board, we want departmental representatives who deal with procurement. I know that Education is a gap, but that does not mean that there is no ongoing consultation with Departments. Sharon Smyth of the Department of Finance will have responsibility for engaging with Departments that are not represented on the board. Education is a significant spender of public money in public contracts, so there will be that read-across.”
“I thank the Member for his questions. He has raised those issues in the past. I am not sure whether the dramatic change from CPD to CPD did not happen under his watch”
“There is a range of reasons why we want to see the most effective use of significant amounts of capital money for infrastructure. We want to see it being spent well, we want to see maximum value and return for it and we want to see the maximum contribution to the local economy as a consequence of that spend. Construction is a key component of our local economic activity, and, where possible, we want to see local construction companies benefit. Having the Construction Employers Federation, as well as the person responsible for procurement policy in the Department for Infrastructure, represented on the procurement board, brings a new level of expertise in that regard. I hope that that will see better outcomes in procurement, which is something that we all want to achieve.”
“I outlined my ambition to have a more effective social value policy and procurement and more consistency in the application of policies. All of that was agreed by the Executive, so I do not anticipate any difficulty in that regard. <BR /> <BR />I am not sure how the Member intends to stand over the last remark of his contribution. I know that he has the cover of this institution for such remarks, but, if he is making an insinuation that there is divvying up in procurement among Executive parties, he has an obligation to stack that up or withdraw it.”
“I cannot, in turn, ask the Member to explain. His point that procurement policy is used for "divvying up favours between parties" in the Executive requires some explanation. That is an outrageous statement. I ask the Member to justify it in some other place. He is accusing people of corruption — of divvying up procurement favours in the Executive. <BR /> <BR />His party has a member on the Executive. The Executive have had plenty of well-documented disagreements over key issues. They have also produced a range of agreements on a multitude of issues, and I do not see those issues becoming of significance. I brought the proposal for a reconstitution of the board to the Executive, and no dissenting voices were raised.”
“Those are the sorts of issues that we want to correct through our engagement with the board. We want to ensure that it is effective, that there is a clear understanding of where the policy becomes unstuck in its practice and that we fix those things to make sure that the desired outcomes are achieved.”
“Yes, that is the intention. On the social value end, we have brought in the Strategic Investment Board (SIB), which was largely responsible for the Buy Social policy. When it comes to the other issues of employment, apprentices and the long-term unemployed, we want to ensure that that consistency travels down through. That is why the involvement of the construction industry on the board itself gives us that interface so that we can see what the issues are from the other side. It is one thing to produce policies through civil servants and public representatives but another to engage with the sector that has to implement them. <BR /> <BR />We had a useful discussion with people in the Derry area in relation to how some of this had not made its way onto the ground.”
“This time, the guidance notes will be approved by the Executive, and there is then a responsibility on Executive Ministers, and on their accounting officers, to make sure that those guidance notes are followed through by their own Departments, arm's-length bodies and agencies. <BR /> <BR />The guidance and policies that are produced will have more teeth and more enforceability, which, in turn, gives them more consistency. Depending on the attitude of a permanent secretary, it may have been that some Departments were keen on pursuing and promoting the issues, while others, perhaps, were not. We want to get consistency across the board and we want to ensure that there is a level of expertise within the board to get the best possible policies and guidance notes.”
“The lack of consistency is reflected in the fact that some policies and guidance that the Procurement Board brought forward, particularly in relation to social value, were seen as optional add-ons rather than being essential. We want to give the board more expertise to develop better policies in a quicker way by having key people involved. That is not to disregard the permanent secretaries, but there would be duplication if a policy went through the permanent secretaries and ended up in the Executive, and then the Executive gave it the authority. Previously, the guidance notes were approved by the board itself, and that was the extent of their status.”
“I am thinking of firms such as O'Neills, which supplied scrubs, and Bloc Blinds and Huhtamaki, which produced PPE gear. They were very effective and very successful, and the issue of security of supply is something that, increasingly, all governments across the world will be looking to. Clearly, the experience during the pandemic was around the difficulty in accessing that critical supply that was needed very quickly by the health service. We need to look at that, and it is doable within whatever arrangements we have with Europe beyond 1 January. We need to ensure that, if local manufacturers are going to repurpose, they have a guarantee, or at least a huge degree of certainty, about an ongoing contract and ongoing demand for the goods that they might supply.”
“We want to ensure that this is not just an organisation or a board that produces policies for the sake of having documents, but one that changes the way that business is done. <BR /> <BR />The consultancy sector is a varied one, as the Member knows, as is the service sector. We have looked for sectors that have groups that represent the broad sector from which to draw expertise. If other sectors are identified where there is a gap, I will be happy to look at that again to see whether that sector can come together and whether there is an organisation that might represent it and make someone available from it. <BR /> <BR />On the question of supplies, as a response to the pandemic, we did have local businesses and manufacturers that stepped up and repurposed their output.”
“To ensure consistency of delivery, authority is being given to the Executive because they will pass the procurement guidance notes and will be responsible for authorising them. My role in chairing the board, as an Executive Minister, will be to ensure continuity through to the Executive and for that Executive authority to flow down through Departments, through permanent secretaries and Ministers, to make sure that there is follow-through. <BR /> <BR />There have been good procurement policies and guidance notes, but they have somewhat slowed as they have moved down the chain through Departments and not necessarily been reflected in output.”
“I also identified six questions and will attempt to answer them. <BR /> <BR />In relation to the fiscal council, as with the Procurement Board, COVID-19 has impacted on the speed at which we have been able to deliver on that New Decade, New Approach commitment. However, we are at an advanced stage, and I hope to bring proposals to the Executive in relation to that very soon. The terms of reference will be signed off in the next day or two, and we will ensure that the Committee is informed of them. <BR /> <BR />On the role of the board and the chairing of it, one of the consistent complaints has been about a lack of consistency, in that procurement policy and guidance have been the property of the Procurement Board but have not necessarily filtered down through Departments and into arm's-length bodies and agencies.”
“I believe that the changes will help to maximise the social, economic and environmental impact of the Executive's £3 billion annual spend on procurement. I welcome Members' views on the new Procurement Board and the issues that it should focus on.”
“A stronger focus on security of supply will, of course, benefit local businesses and help increase employment levels, so I will ask the Procurement Board to develop policy in that area. <BR /> <BR />There are many other policies that I would like the board to consider, and I would welcome Members' views on what other procurement issues they would like brought to the table. <BR /> <BR />The new structure of the Procurement Board will mean that procurement policy is co-designed by those who manage and those who deliver government contracts. That will mean that procurement policy carries the authority of Executive approval.”
“Therefore, I intend to bring a new policy on social value to the first meeting of the Procurement Board. With that policy, social value will be a mandatory component of procurement exercises rather than an optional add-on. <BR /> <BR />Another policy priority is security of supply. The COVID pandemic triggered a global scramble for PPE and other essential supplies. We do not want to be in that position again. It would be much better if we could source vital supplies locally rather than worrying about supply routes by air and sea. The need for secure supply routes is also heightened by Brexit, which is likely to disrupt trading relationships, particularly if the British Government fail to agree a trade deal with the European Union.”
“<BR /> <BR />The new members of the board will be asked to identify problems, quickly develop solutions and bring fresh thinking to procurement policy and practice. However, I want to finish my statement by highlighting some of the immediate priorities that I will ask the board to progress. <BR /> <BR />One of those priorities is social value. I am aware that that is something that the all-party group on social enterprise chaired by Mr Stewart Dickson is also passionate about. It is important to point out that social value is not only a concern of social enterprise: there are many private sector businesses that want to contribute to social good, for example, by lowering carbon emissions or paying their staff a living wage. Those social benefits are not factored in to tenders that score only on price and quality.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank the outgoing members for their time and commitment during the term of the previous board. <BR /> <BR />To date, procurement policy has been approved by the Procurement Board and circulated throughout the public sector through guidance notes. Compliance with that guidance has not been entirely consistent. It is, therefore, important to elevate the status of procurement policy. From now on, procurement guidance notes will go to the Executive for approval. Procurement policy will, therefore, carry the authority of Ministers, who are accountable to the public, and their accounting officers, who are legally responsible for ensuring that public expenditure provides value for money.”
“From the construction industry, I have appointed Mark Spence, managing director of the Construction Employers Federation (CEF), and Denise McMahon, chair of the Northern Ireland Construction Group. To represent the manufacturing sector, I have appointed Mary Meehan, deputy chief executive of Manufacturing NI. To speak on behalf of small and medium enterprises, I have appointed Ian McClelland, director of LM Services, which is a mechanical and electrical engineering company, and a member of the Procurement Board forum for small businesses. To champion the interests of social enterprises, I have appointed Colin Jess, director of Social Enterprise NI. Those representatives will be asked to engage with their respective sectors in order to bring their views and experiences to the Procurement Board.”