Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“It is intended that the policy framework for the elements that came out of the inquiries will be submitted to me for consideration in October. Thereafter, there will be detailed, formal consultation with the trade union side and other key stakeholders. That is obviously a fundamental requirement when undertaking significant work to make changes. <BR /> <BR />Of course, we want to see the schemes developed, as well as opportunities for more lateral entry into the Civil Service and a transformation within it. We also want to see a contribution being made by the regional hubs, which will allow people to apply who previously would not have applied because of proximity issues. A range of different measures is under way. <BR /> <BR />I had a discussion with some of your colleagues about the proposals that the SDLP developed.”
“The reports asked for a review of recruitment, and that is under way. I have agreed the terms of reference for the review and an independent advisory panel of HR experts has been established to support it. <BR /> <BR />Officials are developing a proposed overarching policy framework, which will set out the future approach by which the Civil Service recruits and selects to ensure that it is staffed by people with the necessary skills and expertise. While that policy is under development, it will aim to open up recruitment to the Civil Service and to expand its resourcing mix — the routes into the Civil Service, which the previous Member who spoke asked about — through an increased use of apprenticeships, trainee schemes and employability interventions.”
“There are a number of measures, including the apprenticeship scheme, student placement schemes and open recruitment processes, all of which, I hope, will have a transformative effect on the Civil Service. I am certainly happy to take suggestions from the Member about that.”
“We are changing recruitment and looking at the whole area of recruitment practices as per the recommendation from the Audit Office report.”
“The apprenticeship scheme is only one of a number of options. I think that there are about 100 student placements as well, and people can come in and work for a period and go back to their training. I will get the Member the exact entry requirements. <BR /> <BR />The Member makes a very valid point — it is one that we have, on occasion, discussed in the Department — about opportunities for people who are not achieving as they might have wished in school and ensuring that the Civil Service is a very broad home for people of all skills and levels of education. I will take that away and report back to him on any progress, but he makes a very valid point about these schemes. I would like to see greater numbers in these schemes.”
“I was delighted to recently launch the new Civil Service operational delivery apprenticeship scheme, alongside Minister Hargey and Minister Lyons, to recruit 45 operational delivery apprentices. This is the largest Civil Service apprenticeship recruitment to date and offers successful candidates an entry-level route into a career in the Civil Service, allowing them to earn a wage while undertaking a work-based qualification over a two-year period. Apprentices who successfully complete their apprenticeship will progress to the next grade — administrative officer — within the operational delivery profession.”
“I have seen responses. It is not the responsibility of the Department of Finance. As the Member will know from her time in the Executive, we allocate the funding to cover those issues and the Department of Health is responsible for distributing that. That Department seems to have run into some technical procedural issues that have delayed that. The latest responses that I saw were talking about this being sorted in the autumn. I know that people are anxiously waiting for that £500, and I am sure that all Members have received a lot of enquiries about the subject. I hope that that payment is expedited, because I know that a lot of people have been looking forward to that and very much need it in the time ahead.”
“As the Member will know, the British Government did not make the type of pay offer that healthcare professionals, nurses and others wanted. Applauding them outside 10 and 11 Downing Street did not mean much when it came to actually allocating them a pay award. The Health Minister has been discussing that pay award and the additional £500 payment. The Department of Health is progressing that at the moment for healthcare workers. The outcome of the pay award for healthcare workers was very disappointing but, perhaps, not unexpected from Treasury.”
“<BR /> <BR />With previous Barnett consequentials, particularly those that arrived late in the year, Health may have said that it could not spend such a level of consequential and that it did not ask for all that, but I am happy to get the detail of that and pass it on to the Member.”
“It goes back to the discussion about a three-year Budget versus a one-year Budget. If we get a Barnett consequential in year, it has to be spent in year. If it is a substantial consequential, Health may not be in a position to fully spend that. I will get the Member the detail, but I know that, this year alone, we have given an additional £70 million-plus to Health to deal with waiting lists. We are expecting a Barnett consequential of £180 million, which we will allocate as part of the October monitoring round. Health has asked to have all of that, and I would support that request and will make a recommendation accordingly.”
“That decision was taken at Westminster, and any decision to give it back should be taken at Westminster. It is interesting that there seems to be an attempt to pass the problem to the Executive when it was a decision taken at Westminster. <BR /> <BR />The Communities Minister has asked for an urgent Executive discussion on all welfare mitigations, including the money that would be lost by the ending of the universal credit top-up. I hope that that meeting takes place as soon as possible. We then have to discuss what we have in our budgets and what we expect in the spending review outcome. That decision should have been fought at Westminster. I understand that it will affect people here, but it is almost as if the problem has been presented as the Executive's problem. The Executive did not cut the top-up.”
“The Executive will then have to take decisions on prioritisation. <BR /> <BR />We do not know what the outcome of the spending review will be. We have no sense that it will be an improved position in terms of our Budget. That may mean that we have to look at other Departments and how we prioritise to meet the health needs.”
“My Department talked to other Departments over the summer in relation to the Budget outcome and the Budget planning that we need to do ahead of the outcome of the spending review at the end of October so that we are ready to draft and launch a draft Budget and go out to public consultation as quickly as we possibly can. <BR /> <BR />As I said in my previous response, I have written to Executive colleagues. I spoke to this issue at the Executive meeting last Thursday. I reminded people that our priority has consistently been to support the health service, and that was probably even more acute than when we came in in January 2020. The needs of the health service are now more pronounced than ever. We will need to consider, first in dialogue with the Health Minister and his Department, what the requirements are.”
“<BR /> <BR />Health interests, of course, span beyond the Health Department, but certainly the primary area of acute services would be through the Health Department. We have been talking to the Health Department about its needs and what it thinks it would require in terms of transformation. The Executive will get down to that discussion, hopefully in the next week or so, to begin to match funding or some estimated funding to that priority — we will not know the amount until the end of October — to make sure that we can plan a better outcome for health over the next three years than we have had over the last number of years.”
“I thank the Member for his question. We have begun the exercise of planning for a multi-annual Budget outcome. That is what we have been seeking for many years. In order to address the longer-term transformation issues in the health service in tackling matters such as waiting lists, we need recurrent funding to make sure that we have the staff to carry that out. That was never possible under a one-year annual Budget scenario. <BR /> <BR />Now that we have had it clarified that we will have a three-year Budget, the Executive have already begun planning. I have put a paper to the Executive identifying that health has been our consistent priority right across the Executive since we came back in January 2020. We then need to consider how we would meet the requirements of the Health Department.”
“Yes. As I said in my response, bringing the figures across each of the devolved areas appeared to indicate that we would receive £400 million. However, some of that spend is not England-specific and does not therefore give rise to a Barnett consequential for us. Rather, some of the spend is on the vaccine more broadly, the cost of which is attributed to all of us. Our estimate, which is yet to be confirmed — it will be confirmed finally in the outcome of the spending review at the end of October — is that it will be more like £300 million.”
“The actual funding provided to the Executive will not be known until the spending review outcome, but the current estimate is that the Executive will receive an average annual amount of £300 million. <BR /> <BR />The Executive recognise the importance of directing funding to our health service, and that will be a wider consideration in the local Budget process. My recommendation will be that the funding provided by the levy should be ring-fenced for health.”
“With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will answer questions 1 and 3 together, as both relate to the health and social care levy. <BR /> <BR />My officials are in discussion with the Treasury around the health and social care levy and how it will impact on the Executive’s Budget. However, I understand that there will be a legal obligation for the cash raised from the levy to be directed to health and social care. <BR /> <BR />For clarity, although the announcement referenced £400 million, that sum included levy-funded spend that is not specific to England, such as vaccine costs, and, as such, that will not give rise to a Barnett consequential.”
“The Department will have to consider its approach as to what it might do in the time ahead, should the Bill get through Second Stage today. <BR /> <BR />Our efforts would be better invested in developing new and effective legislation rather than trying to fix a flawed Bill. If Members are convinced that this is the right vehicle and that they can patch it up as it goes along, good luck to them. My focus will remain on developing bespoke legislation, based on the latest consultation-led evidence, which will do the necessary task properly in the next mandate.”
“That is why, even though it is beyond time when this should have been done, the correct action is to take time to do it right. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly faces a choice. We can do our research, undertake proper consultation and bring forward considered and well-thought-through legislation, or Members can cut and paste this outdated and flawed legislation and try to fix it, which seems to be what the Bill sponsor is suggesting, as it is rushed through the remaining months of this mandate. The Bill sponsor has suggested that the Committee, which seems to be the focus of the burden of trying to correct the Bill, could deconstruct and reconstruct it. The Committee will have to decide whether it wishes to use resources in the time ahead to undertake such an onerous exercise.”
“As a matter of fact, it has been pointed out that, by comparison, the number of cases has dropped in the intervening period. <BR /> <BR />We see no evidence that scientists or academics in our universities are mincing their words or that journalists here are more cautious. You can buy the same books, magazines, papers and academic journals here as you can buy in London, Dublin or New York. I have not heard of a single book, article or news story that could be published in London or Dublin but had to be held back here for fear of our defamation laws. I see no evidence that we need to move urgently on defamation law because major human rights or freedom of expression issues are at stake or because every other tourist here is a libel tourist.”
“I accept, without reservation, that this has gone on for far too long. I wish that it had been dealt with from 2013 onwards. However, given the experience of the pandemic and the pressures on people's time, only now are we in a place where we can work on this. I want to see that work progress with all speed. I am very happy to work in a collegial manner with Members from all parties as we take this forward. We can take a bit more time to get it right. There is no sign, as others said, that we are beset by libel tourism, which was one of the great warnings attached to the 2013 legislation and its absence here. There is no evidence that people are choosing this jurisdiction for their defamation actions because they think that they will get more leniency and a better outcome.”
“It could take lessons from the 2013 Act, and it could take into account the Irish Government's review of defamation law, which is expected to conclude shortly. The importance of that review is that it includes the most up-to-date examination of how to address online defamation. It is not simply a matter of our taking an all-Ireland approach to these matters but of taking examples of best practice and research from other places. Mr O'Toole said that we could come back to that and insert a clause that adds in bits of that review, if it proves OK. My argument is: why rush into this? Why not wait until we do our own research, get the most up-to-date advice and information and produce legislation in the next mandate? <BR /> <BR />My Department is ready to prepare state-of-the-art legislation.”
“He has published and spoken quite a lot on the issue, and it seems that his arguments can be mustered on either side of the debate. In his report, he advised against a straightforward replication of the 2013 Act. Instead, he proposed that we develop our own bespoke legislation. One of the messages coming from a conference of academic lawyers held in Dublin at the end of 2019 was that the Defamation Act 2013 was not a good model for defamation law. People have said that the 2013 Act has tipped the balance away from reputational rights and privacy. <BR /> <BR />That legislation could offer lessons to bespoke legislation that we might produce. It is my intention that such legislation will come forward from the Department of Finance.”
“However, there is a question about accessibility and the ability to get remedy for ordinary people who do not have deep pockets or insurance cover, as Members referred to. <BR /> <BR />There are other serious concerns with the legislation. One is the removal of jury trials. There have been no jury trials on defamation matters in England or Wales since the Defamation Act was passed, leaving the view on whether reputations have been harmed solely with a judge. The single publication rule has also been shown to be problematic. Although it was designed to simplify matters, it may have ended up complicating them. Those flaws were highlighted at the time and have only grown in the eight years since the Defamation Act was passed. <BR /> <BR />Dr Andrew Scott has been referred to often in the debate.”
“He articulated that, given his knowledge of the legal system, probably better than I could, so I will rest with his questioning in that regard. The original intention of serious harm was to exclude frivolous claims. In reality, it makes it easier for public figures, by virtue of their public profile and reputation, to demonstrate serious harm; in other words, the rich and the powerful are better protected than perhaps the ordinary man or woman on the street. As the Bill sponsor suggested, it is, indeed, about the money when it comes to that outcome from the legislation. Some of the most enthusiastic supporters of the Bill spoke from the perspective of media organisations — given their background, that is understandable — be they large or small, in that regard.”
“We live in a digital age. Defamatory statements can easily be posted on social media platforms and rapidly circulated online and by word of mouth. Within hours, a person's reputation can be destroyed, causing great distress to them and their families. It is primarily women who bear the brunt of abuse and defamation from online trolls. The legislation does not deal with that fundamental issue. <BR /> <BR />In replicating the 2013 Act, the private Member's Bill also introduces serious harm, which was dwelt on quite considerably by Mr Allister. That means that it is not sufficient for a person to prove that their reputation has been damaged by a defamatory statement; they also have to demonstrate that they have been seriously harmed.”
“One of the difficulties with being the penultimate Member to speak in the debate is that other Members have dissected quite a lot of the important parts of the Bill and offered some concerns and criticisms about how it would operate. I share a lot of them. I do not propose for the sake of the debate to repeat or go into the areas that they went in to, but the central question for all of us here, regardless of whether the Bill goes on to other stages, is this: is the Bill the right vehicle for what we all agree is a very necessary process of reform? The Bill is not a fresh piece of legislation. I think that everyone accepts that. It is a straight replication of the Defamation Act that was passed in Westminster in 2013, which was eight years ago. In terms of modern-day technology and media platforms, that is a lifetime ago.”
“For the record, I accept that we should have been more alert to the timing of all those things and had our opportunity to speak to the Committee ahead of that time, in which case the request for a delay in the debate would not have been necessary. Nonetheless, we are where we are today. <BR /> <BR />One thing in the debate that has been consistent is that every Member I heard speak agreed that reform is necessary. There is no one who disagrees; no one said that the situation that we have is satisfactory or that it is doing the right job for the right people in the right balance. The question is this: is the Bill is the right vehicle for that reform?”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. I will say at the outset that our request to look again at the timing of the debate was on the back of a series of attempted engagements. We offered to speak to the Bill's sponsor; I wrote to him in, I think, July. He did not take up the offer, which is his prerogative. When we discovered that the Committee hearing would quickly be followed by the Second Stage, we wanted an opportunity to speak to the Committee. I accept in all that that the Department should have been more alert to the timetables involved. I am not sure where the Committee Chair got the idea that officials were denied access to the Committee. That was never the case; we did not make a request to address the Committee. However, that was the rationale behind that.”
“The British Prime Minister said that the health service was one of the issues for which the UK Government wanted to see support in response to the pandemic. We hope that that translates into support for our health service here as well.”
“I spoke to the Chancellor when I met him in London a number of weeks back. He assured us that the spending review will deliver a multi-annual Budget, which is what the Executive have sought for some time. That will give us the opportunity to plan ahead and to try to deal with some of the big transformation issues such as the health service. We have no indication of additional finances for that transformational work, but we will continue to press the case for it, particularly for our health service, because if we are to reduce waiting lists and get the types of changes that we need to see in the health system, we need a significant investment in it from the Executive. We continue to press the case for that support.”
“It will give us a more diverse and balanced workforce and will give people more access to employment. That should be regarded as a good thing in the time ahead.”
“I agree with the Member about the ability to work from home. It is recognised that, unfortunately, a lot of the burden of organising the home falls unfairly on women. The opportunity to do more blended working makes work more accessible, particularly in Civil Service jobs, which previously would have required employees to spend one or two hours on the road in the morning and the evening travelling in and out of Belfast, or whatever the journey might be. <BR /> <BR />The regional hubs idea will mean that Civil Service jobs will be opened up to people from more peripheral and border areas as well. Travelling and commuting was a big challenge for people considering opportunities in the public sector and probably in the private sector as well.”
“That requires IT support and other things that we have accelerated over the course of the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />The Member will be aware that we have begun the establishment of a ring of hubs so that, if people cannot work from home or they prefer to work in an office environment, they are not required to travel in and out of Belfast five days a week but can go to regional centres. That will have the added impact of ensuring an economic boost to those centres. <BR /> <BR />There is a range of measures to be considered, including where people work from, their work-life balance, a blended approach to working, regional hubs, what we require for the Civil Service estate, and the IT improvements that can assist all that. That is all in the mix and will be part of a longer-term Civil Service review.”
“Yes. A lot of trends that were already happening in the workforce have been accelerated significantly by the experience of the pandemic, including reliance on and enforcement of people's working from home. It will have huge implications for the way that the Civil Service works and for its estate. You can already see people in the private sector reassessing the office space that they need and how they will work in the future. Thankfully, from what I have seen in recent reports, sick leave has reduced significantly during the pandemic, and people have been able to get a better work-life balance. We are looking to review how we do workforce planning in the Civil Service, and we are looking at the idea of a blended approach that combines being in the office and being at home.”
“There is an unfairness in small local businesses and shops in town centres struggling against an online presence that does not bear the same rates burden. That can be examined. I hope that the fiscal commission will look at the fiscal levers that are available to the Executive to address a range of issues and that we will use them to try to support local businesses and jobs in the time ahead.”
“I will, of course, be a champion for businesses. We have distributed enormous relief and support to businesses, which is not a normal function of my Department, to try to ensure that they have a chance of survival after the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />As the Member knows, we have established a fiscal council to look at the idea of other fiscal levers for the Executive. At the moment, the only lever that we have is rates, which contribute about 10% of the Executive's finances. As the Member knows, they are used to try to protect the vital public services that serve Derry and other places. Those services are hugely important to us. There is always a balance when trying to do that. <BR /> <BR />The presence of online shopping is a taxation issue that Treasury is looking at.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is broad recognition that our high streets have been in trouble for some time and that, wherever we can, we should use whatever devices are available to the Executive to provide support. We should act collectively across a number of Departments. The Department for Communities has an interest. The Department for Infrastructure has an interest in some of the parklet schemes that were launched last weekend. Those things can collectively contribute to improving town centres, and the Executive should work across all Departments to do what we can with the limited resources and fiscal levers at our disposal.”
“The only fiscal policy that can currently be of that type of assistance to town centres is the rates policy. In our response to the pandemic, we gave a two-year rates holiday to a substantial number of businesses at a cost of £500 million to the Executive. We also reduced the non-domestic rate by 18% last year, and we have kept that 18% reduction. As the Member is well aware, we have given out a variety of business support grants through a number of Departments. We also fully funded the economic recovery package, which the Department for the Economy will use to support town centres and other businesses as we try to assist in their recovery from the pandemic.”
“Where Departments can achieve better social outcomes with the work that they do, by all means, they should. We are setting a minimum standard, and that does not mean that it stops there. Departments can do other things and bring other improvements. We procure about £3 billion worth of goods and services each year. That gives us enormous power to achieve a lot of other social good. I hope that a consequence of the policy that we have brought through is that it will allow the Executive to do that across the board.”
“The discussion on the matter went to the Executive. Part of the change to procurement is that, rather than being a Department of Finance policy that it must try to get other Departments to adopt, it has been brought to the entire Executive and has their stamp of approval and will get a uniform approach from Departments because Ministers are obliged to follow through on it. I have had dialogue with a range of Ministers on all of that, and we want to see an improvement across the board. We want procurement to be used in that fashion.”
“I see it as an enhancement. In my time at the Department for Regional Development (DRD), we had social clauses for some Roads Service contracts to try to achieve good social outcomes. The problem was that it was intermittent and had no uniform standard process to assess or score social value. The paper that I brought to the Executive and reported to the Assembly today will bring a standardised process to all Departments. There will be a minimum threshold, which will enhance the good work that some Departments have been doing to create social value. It will ensure that those awarding contracts and those bidding for them understand clearly what is required and operate on the same playing field. That will lead not only to better outcomes but to better social outcomes.”
“As I said, I am happy to look at the request. I remind the Member that it is not just Departments that are sources of funding. There are voluntary and community sector groups, and the National Lottery delivers the dormant accounts fund, which looks at resilience to make sure that organisations do not go out of existence because of a lack of support. A number of organisations support charities and other groups like that. By all means, I am happy to look at that, but Informing Choices NI should look at other sources of funding.”
“Normally, funding requests come from a Department that has a responsibility for or a relationship with an organisation. I am happy to consider any requests for assistance that might come forward from a Department. I am sure that vital services are being provided for women, but, rather than the Department of Finance going out to look for it, it would require the sponsoring Department within the ambit of which the organisation operates to come forward. I assume that that will be the Department of Health or, perhaps, the Department of Justice. However, if such a request comes in, I am more than happy to consider it with the relevant Department and to talk to the Executive.”
“The Department of Finance is preparing legislation that will enable Departments to make any changes that are required as a result of the reviews.”
“New Decade, New Approach commitments envisage that the number of arm's-length bodies (ALBs) will be rationalised and that there will be efficiency savings, a strengthening of democratic control and improved accountability. In June 2020, the Executive agreed to a review of ALBs to meet that commitment. Following that initial analysis, the Executive have now been asked to agree to the way forward in the review of arm’s-length bodies. Subject to the Executive's decision, it will be for individual Departments to consider the way forward for their respective ALBs on an organisation-by-organisation basis. In line with the NDNA priority, the Department of Finance will maintain and publish a record of ALB reviews and outcomes.”
“However, we have ensured that the matters that flow from the Act have been distilled and distributed to all Departments to make sure that people fully understand the requirements that are now in law.”
“I spoke against that Bill. I made my views on it clear. I thought that some of the propositions in the Bill were impractical and that some probably contradicted the delivery of good government. Nonetheless, the Bill was passed in its final format once amendments were sorted through by the Assembly. The Department immediately, as it was obliged to do, provided a report to all Departments on what they need to do to make sure that they observe the legislation that was passed. That has caused some changes in reporting and recording matters. A lot of those issues were already addressed in the RHI report and would have come through by way of the Executive's subcommittee and the Executive response anyway.”
“As the Member knows from his membership of the Finance Committee, a number of civil servants were reported for further investigation and potential disciplinary issues resulting from that. Some people retired in the interim, which is unfortunate for a proper and publicly understood outcome to the inquiry's recommendations. There are ongoing matters, because there are some legal matters being challenged. They have not yet concluded. We have undertaken to provide the Committee with as much information as we can, subject to legal advice on ongoing legal matters.”