Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“He ignores the elephant in the room, however, which is that we do not have control over those affairs, and we will not have control over them in the constitutional framework in which we currently operate. Our lack of control over austerity, over the Budget amount, over the funding envelope and over the time frame for our Budgets are all part of our constitutional framework. The only time that we will have proper control and be able to do something significant about changing the wherewithal of people here is when we are in charge of our own affairs. He reiterated the issue of Advice NI, and I advise him again — if he pardons the pun — that the Communities Minister is on record as saying that she will find the funding to support Advice NI. <BR /> <BR />Roy Beggs raised a range of issues around infrastructure, perhaps too many to go into.”
“<BR /> <BR />The benefits were outlined at a time when was a very substantial boom of economic activity and foreign direct investment across the world. We are not in that situation now, and certainly not post-pandemic. That is my perspective. <BR /> <BR />The idea of having a fiscal commission was not to look at corporation tax. We proposed the fiscal commission before the move on corporation tax was announced in last week's Budget. A fiscal commission would look at the broad ambit of fiscal levers available to the Executive and at how, if they were minded, the Executive might use those levers to target them at our own priorities. <BR /> <BR />On the overall point, the Member is consistent in challenging the Executive, the Budgets over what he says they are doing to ordinary people, and me as a Sinn Féin Finance Minister.”
“No, they do not have the power to do that. There were two issues. First, the Executive had to consider it to be affordable. Secondly, there were tests that had be met to establish the financial healthiness of the Executive's funds. When the agreement was made to look at cutting corporation tax, we were straight into a prolonged period of austerity Budgets. It therefore would not have been affordable, nor were the Executive's finances in a healthy enough state to consider such a proposition. We are still in that situation. The move on behalf of the British state to 25% is perhaps an indicator that foreign direct investment is not something that it is concerned will suffer as a consequence of raising the tax.”
“Yes. I will give way in one second. <BR /> <BR />I have never advocated that cut. I have always believed that, even back in the original negotiations, the key factor for any Executive in considering a corporation tax cut was affordability. Unlike some other taxes that are cut, the money from corporation tax can be sent directly to where it is intended to go. Cutting the rate of corporation tax is a gamble to attract greater economic activity and to ensure that companies that benefit from it then reinvest that money. I am happy to give way.”
“If the rate here goes up to 25%, which I have been told could amount to as much as £800 million a year, how a corporation tax reduction here to match what is available south of the border would be affordable for the Executive, I cannot begin to understand. I have never advocated —.”
“If a corporation tax cut were to be brought in by the Executive, it would inevitably be done on the basis that, first, we think that we can attract enough foreign direct investment to contribute to the economy and create a greater level of prosperity and that, secondly, we think that indigenous companies will use the cut to invest in companies and create more employment. Both are big gambles. <BR /> <BR />The position on corporation tax when it was originally discussed was to question whether it was affordable and whether the Executive's finances were in a sufficiently healthy state to allow us to cut the rate. It was clearly not considered affordable when a cut to 17% was proposed.”
“While we had some Brexit funding for the PSNI to increase the number of officers, that funding has stopped. We have tried to supplement that from our own Budgets, but, inevitably, the numbers will fall for the PSNI. <BR /> <BR />Gerry Carroll raised issues around corporation tax. I am sort of concerned that he is taking his lead from the 'Financial Times' on what I think and say, but there you go.”
“He talked about the lack of investment and about David Cameron saying that we do not have worse childcare issues than in parts of England. David Cameron's Government decided to cut public funding. They brought in austerity. They were supported in their efforts to get into office by the Ulster Unionist Party at the time. They introduced the austerity Budgets, which lasted for nine years and, potentially, will resurface in the time ahead. I have no doubt that areas in Britain suffered as much as us with a lack of investment in childcare. That is no excuse not to invest right across the board in support for public services. <BR /> <BR />I get the Member's point about the PSNI numbers. It was another NDNA commitment that was not followed through on.”
“We already have some allocation for health, which we know about, for next year, for COVID. Of course, as the Member knows, the COVID spend is in-year spend, which does not allow for investment in long-term transformation. If we have not had money announced for health in our Budget now, we get that kind of annual cycle of money that, as I said, is not possible to use in the longer term. It is concerning that, for all the talk and the Thursday night round of applause, public services are not getting the level of support that they require in the time ahead. While there have been some welcome announcements in the Budget, I fear for the provisions for public services in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />Mike Nesbitt raised some similar points.”
“<BR /> <BR />Pam Cameron and Colm Gildernew, as members of the Health Committee, raised issues about the health budget. We are on a hamster wheel, if you like, where we are treading water to try to catch up with what we need to spend on health, but we never have enough money to invest in transformation. Therefore, we cannot change the circumstances in which health operates. While the NDNA promised and delivered some limited funds for transformation, it is nowhere near what is needed to give effect to that. We are perpetually caught in the cycle of not being able to change the circumstances but needing to change the circumstances to effect better change.”
“We will continue to engage around that. One of the biggest difficulties around all of these, including the Shared Prosperity Fund, is a lack of information, so we have been trying to get details. There were some high-level announcements in the Budget last week from the Chancellor but very little detail to underpin any of those. We are still trying to work through exactly what is involved. The common experience is that, first, we are not getting anywhere near what the European Union funding delivered for us. Secondly, we are not getting any measure of control on any of the aspects of funding that we are getting. Both are unacceptable and certainly not what was promised in the Brexit debate. <BR /> <BR />Andrew Muir raised the issue of the challenges with a standstill Budget. I agree, and I am on the record many times on that.”
“The trend that Matthew O'Toole identified when he worked there a number of years ago has become even more pronounced in the last number of weeks. Of course, we will continue to challenge that. <BR /> <BR />I also agree with Matthew O'Toole that there is a need for the Budget to align with the Programme for Government, which he mentions frequently. Of course, that is exactly where we want to be. Over the past year, we have been trying to manage the challenges of the pandemic. We have to get back, very quickly, to trying to align the two.”
“He will have had some experience of that in his previous position. I think that Declan McAleer, the Chair of the AERA Committee, made the same point, particularly in relation to the replacement of EU funding. That contempt is becoming more and more evident. We have certainly heard very loudly from the Welsh and Scottish Governments that the new funding arrangement to replace EU and other funds will be used centrally in Whitehall, will be set against English priorities and that we will have to bid and compete with everybody else on a case-by-case basis. Also, while Departments would otherwise have spent against their priorities, the funding that comes in will go straight into departmental areas of spend, which in no way respects the devolved arrangements here.”
“Nonetheless, I agree with him about some of the work that departmental officials have been involved in. He was not correct when he said that we should have known more last summer. He will remember that, last summer, we got what we were told was the Barnett guarantee, and we were told that that was all the money. Since then, we have received a further three or four instalments. We were unable to plan during the summer. We were told that we had a certain amount for the rest of the year, and we welcomed the certainty that that provided. However, that is not how it materialised. I do not begrudge getting more money — of course, we always welcome more money — but our ability to spend in a strategic or planned way was limited. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Matthew O'Toole's point about the contempt for devolved arrangements and institutions.”
“I am not sure whether it has landed in the Department yet, but we very much look forward to getting that support to people. <BR /> <BR />I thank Matthew O'Toole for his words of appreciation for departmental officials. I was filled with a warm glow thinking that he might include me in those words, but, in case he went too far, he then very ruthlessly cut me off.”
“However, engaging in the debate and becoming informed about what may be available and how it may be used should not threaten anyone. It is very short-sighted to refuse to engage in that debate. <BR /> <BR />Caoimhe Archibald, the Chair of the Economy Committee, asked what funding would be required for the economic recovery action plan that the Department for the Economy will bring forward. I understand that a total payment of £317 million would be required: £286 million resource and £31 million capital. She also asked where we were with the LRSS schemes. From the latest figures that I have, I understand that over 98% of cases have been resolved in one way or another. I also understand that a proposal to assist travel agents is to be brought forward.”
“We forgo money from rural ATMs to make a contribution to try to ensure that rural isolation does not become an even bigger issue than it is already. We forgo that potential income for the Executive so that we can target certain supports. As is the case with any fiscal lever that we have, the Executive can decide how and whether we use that in the time ahead. We already do that. <BR /> <BR />I propose that we have a much bigger debate about some of the levers that might be available to us, as Scotland and Wales did, and I hope that others will engage in that debate. I do not think that there is anything to be afraid of. Of course, if the outcome is that people support trying to access power from Westminster and use it in a certain way, that will be a matter for the Executive and the Assembly to decide at a future point.”
“Of course, I accept, as others said, that you immediately get into the question of how much tax would be raised. The real question is this: what powers do we have, and what powers do we want to change our circumstances here? Do we want to rely, year-on-year, on a multi-annual Budget, if we are lucky? Do we want to receive, at late notice, an annual Budget with the same amount of cash as we had last year? What power do we want to have over our affairs? <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned the limited powers that we have in relation to rates. We already make decisions on rates. We give rates relief. We target rates relief to certain sectors. We take fiscal decisions to forgo money from small business through manufacturing rates relief.”
“I am hoping that we can make progress on that. I am glad that we have at least had the beginnings of an engagement with the NIO in relation to this. I hope that we get something resolved soon, because the Executive are fully committed, as I am, to ensuring that victims get the payments that they deserve in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />The Deputy Chair and a number of others raised the issue of a fiscal commission. I will get on to the matter of a fiscal council later.”
“There has been some late movement on the money, but I think we have in the region of £200 million to spend out and allocate to Departments. Of course, I hope that the money that has already been allocated to Departments is fully spent and none of it returns at a late stage. There is some small flexibility, in addition to the flexibility provided by the moneys that we got in late January. We have some small annual flexibility to carry over money, so I hope that we manage to do that. <BR /> <BR />The Deputy Chair and other Members raised the issue of the victims' payments. Of course, we have already invested money to implement and administer the scheme, and the Executive have agreed to pick up that cost. We want very quickly, and have been making strenuous efforts, to resolve the issue of the payments themselves.”
“I am very relieved to be bringing this debate to a close. I think I have heard the same speeches three times over in the last two weeks; I could rehearse them all myself. Nonetheless, it is important that Members get the opportunity to raise issues that they have with the Budget. Some people have been debating next year's Budget, even though we are not debating that today, but that inevitably happens with these particular debates. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I join Members in expressing my best wishes to the Chair of the Finance Committee following his accident. I hope that he has a speedy recovery. <BR /> <BR />Members raised a number of points. The Deputy Chair raised the issue of the, as yet, unspent money. It is my intention to bring a proposition to the Executive Committee this week, if we can get that together.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is the final stage of our financial legislative process for 2020-21. The legislation has already been the subject of considerable debate. I now look forward to hearing any final thoughts from Members on this important legislation.”
“The debates on the earlier stages of the Bill and the associated Supply resolutions have been informative. I thank the Committees for the scrutiny that they have brought to the process. <BR /> <BR />I hope that it is now clear to everyone that this Budget Bill focuses on the 2020-21 financial year. Although it also provides legal authority for Departments to spend into the first few months of 2021-22 through the Vote on Account, that does not constitute the setting of the 2021-22 Budget. The Vote on Account is simply a mechanism that allows Departments to deliver services at the start of the new financial year, pending the Assembly's consideration of the Main Estimates and Budget (No. 2) Bill. Later this year, that Bill will set out the detail of the 2021-22 spending plans contained in the Executive's 2021-22 Budget.”
“The allocations to Infrastructure are also supporting Northern Ireland Water (NIW). Almost £180 million has gone to the Department of Education to support schools so that they can continue to deliver education for our children and young people safely and provide free school meals. I express my gratitude once again to the Finance Committee, which acknowledged the unique circumstances that we have found ourselves in this year and has worked with us to grant accelerated passage to the Bill. <BR /> <BR />There will be every opportunity for Members to debate the Executive's 2021-22 Budget plans when I bring the Executive's Budget to the Assembly later this month. There will be a further opportunity when the Main Estimates and Budget (No. 2) Bill come to the Assembly before the summer.”
“That includes over £1 billion of additional in-year funding for the Department of Health to ensure that doctors, nurses and other medical staff have the resources that they need in the fight against the health emergency. It includes over £644 million to the Department for the Economy to support businesses and the further and higher education sector. Over £500 million has gone to my Department to provide rate relief and administer support schemes to businesses. We have allocated over £275 million to the Department for Communities to support councils, vulnerable individuals and the culture, arts and sports sectors. Over £226 million has gone to the Department for Infrastructure to ensure that our transport networks can continue to operate, including Translink, airports, seaports and the taxi, private coach and bus industries.”
“Today's Final Stage debate concludes the financial legislative process for the 2020-21 year. The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic has meant that financial circumstances this year have been unprecedented. The Executive have acted quickly to provide funding, not only to deal with the health impact of the pandemic but to respond to the social and economic impact. We have had to respond to changing circumstances in the face of new restrictions and have had to work quickly to get financial assistance to the health service, schools, businesses and families. Departments have transformed the ways in which they work in order to get that funding to where it was needed. <BR /> <BR />We are continuing to plan for and respond to the situation. This year to date, the allocations that have been made by the Executive amount to almost £3 billion.”
“While we all want to put our shoulder to the wheel by providing advice, guidance and support for people who use online provision, those who make a business from online platforms also have a responsibility to ensure that they are a safe place for women and the many other users.”
“I concur with the Member on that. That is why, in a previous answer, I highlighted the particular treatment of women online. Bullying, misogyny and sexism are often prevalent online and generally come from faceless and nameless users of online platforms. Yes, it was part of the conversation, because anything that deals with security, confidence and a safe place online should primarily provide a safe place for the primary victims of online abuse, who, in large measure, are women. That was clearly part of the conversation. <BR /> <BR />As I said in answer to my colleague, the online platform providers have a significant role to play in this and perhaps have not stepped up to the plate just as much as that.”
“Those are all helpful developments, but, clearly, we want as much guidance and advice as we can get, particularly for vulnerable people who are new to internet services and for people who are not familiar with or confident on them to make sure that they do not become victims of crime on the internet.”
“I thank the Member for her question. Clearly, that is another significant issue in online activity, and fraud has become a very significant part of that. Our teams have a close partnership with Scamwise NI. It recently issued some helpful videos to show how those types of scams can take place and the terrible impact that they have on the victims. The Northern Ireland Cyber Security Centre was launched last year, and it functions as a dedicated resource that focuses on providing advice and guidance to the public about how to be cyber safe and secure online.”
“As the Member will know, Project Stratum is the responsibility of the Department for the Economy. It is not my responsibility at all to roll out Project Stratum. However, as a constituency representative for the very people and areas that he mentioned, I am engaging with Project Stratum, with Fibrus, which is rolling it out, and with the Department for the Economy. I do not think that it is acceptable that significant areas that have lacked coverage for many years are at the tail end of the queue for Project Stratum. As a representative of that constituency, that is what I intend to do.”
“Yes, the senior management at Enterprise Shared Services has recognised the importance of the digital journey undertaken by Estonia. It is a very good example, and there is a history of contact and engagement with the Estonian Government, including a visit by the then Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton, in 2013 to learn from their experience. That engagement also included agreeing a concordat, which was signed by Enterprise Shared Services and the Estonian Information System Authority in 2014, that sought to set out a framework to enable and encourage closer working relationships and to seek and identify some joint projects with the Estonian Administration.”
“Online abuse has been very clearly identified. Yesterday was International Women's Day, and online abuse is particularly relevant to women. A very high proportion of the victims of online bullying, commentary and intimidation are women. Clearly, the people who provide online platforms have a role to play in dealing with that issue. While some of the digital support provided by the Executive and other Administrations at the BIC meeting helps to support and advise people, the providers of digital platforms have a huge responsibility to make sure that online bullying, racism, sexism and other horrible experiences are addressed. Generally, the online bullies remain anonymous, and the platform providers must deal with that in a fashion that assists people to use the internet safely.”
“It is interesting that the Member has access to the Department of Education's paper for the Executive when Ministers have just received its proposals. Of course, all Ministers want all the restrictions to be lifted as soon as possible. I am particularly conscious that the Executive have agreed on a priority for getting kids back to school. The priority for a return to school is for a variety of reasons, one being access to online services that the Member has identified, which are no substitute for face-to-face teaching. Of course, we want a return to school as quickly as possible, but it will be based on health advice about safety, the course of the pandemic and the transmission rates. The Executive will look at the evidence and try to achieve a return to school as quickly as they can.”
“However, I am happy to look at that as part of the rates review.”
“As the Member knows, there will be a rates review. A lot of the big online shopping services do not have a physical infrastructure in the area. People often refer to Amazon, which is building a centre on the outskirts of Dublin, but it has very little presence here and mainly does deliveries. The ability to rate and derive an income from Amazon in comparison with the amount of business that it does is limited. Therefore, the Member is correct: taxation is a more obvious way to yield an income from online shopping services rather than through the properties that they use. They do not have a high-street presence, they operate through warehouses and distribution networks. I am happy to look at rates, but given those companies' physical presence here in comparison with their delivering to people's doors, it might not yield that much.”
“The Isle of Man Government are continuing with that work stream, and they will continue to engage with officials from each Administration. That work will not just stop between now and 2023.”
“The pandemic has heightened the necessity to be able to access services online and also the need for the growing and advanced technologies that we now have, even since the last time that the Council met, to ensure that young and older people are safe using technology. That is why infographics were promoted.”
“Just so that the Member understands how the British-Irish Council works: various Administrations take the lead in certain sectors. The Isle of Man Government take the lead in this sector, and there is ongoing engagement between officials. The ministerial meetings are not frequent, but that does not stop the work stream itself going ahead. It is an opportunity to share best practice and ideas. <BR /> <BR />As I said, infographics were promoted as part of the meeting to share that across the various jurisdictions. Online safety is a key feature. There was broad discussion among all the representatives on all the issues that the Member mentioned and the importance of ensuring that, first, people have access.”
“With regard to the programmes that we are rolling out, we must also ensure that people have the necessary skills, as well as the safety and confidence, to go online to use the government services available to them.”
“I concur. The Member is correct that the pandemic has probably brought the issue more sharply into focus, because so many services must now be accessed online, and, where you have large rural areas with difficult or non-existent broadband connectivity, an older cohort of people who are isolated and vulnerable, and people who have learning difficulties, their inability to access those services creates a digital divide. We have to mindful of that and take whatever steps we can to address it. <BR /> <BR />Of course, that moves into the economics sphere when businesses in rural communities cannot do the kind of online business that is readily available to businesses in urban settings. Project Stratum aims to address that through physical infrastructure. We need to continue to engage with that.”
“As the Member rightly said, it is not just about the socio-economic factors or, indeed, lack of digital skills, particularly among the older population, but the ability to connect through the provision of broadband services, which is crucial to connectivity. All those matters need to be addressed.”
“Therefore there has been significant roll-out. The digital inclusion pilot project was also rolled out to people, particularly the elderly and vulnerable, to give them a tablet and connect them. That was substantially oversubscribed and had to be ramped up. Of course, there is now an emphasis on using digital services safely online. That is an increasing emphasis in the approach. It was also an emphasis in the discussions with Ministers from other jurisdictions. The issue is not unique to us. We will continue to invest in that programme because it is having tangible results for connectivity.”
“It is targeted at the harder-to-reach, digitally excluded sections of the population, such as older people, people with disabilities, disadvantaged communities, rural communities and the long-term unemployed. <BR /> <BR />It is a very successful programme, which has enlisted the help of three different sectors to reach people. Libraries NI has a network right across the North of almost 100 libraries, which are online. Ninety per cent of citizens here live within 3 miles of a library, which as well as being important for this project shows the general importance of the availability of reading material. The digital inclusion unit also works with Business in the Community, which provides access to business volunteers from across the region, and Supporting Communities, which delivers digital skills training here.”
“I thank the Deputy Chair for his question. I endorse his comments about the Chair. I hope he makes a speedy recovery. <BR /> <BR />As the Member will know, the Department of Finance's digital shared services (DSS) directorate provides services to all Departments. It has a particular responsibility for digital inclusion, and the digital inclusion unit's established aim is to promote a digitally inclusive society through a range of projects. It works in close partnership with public and private organisations to help people get online. It also works alongside Departments. There are a number of schemes, including the Go ON NI digital inclusion programme, which has been running for some time. That programme has raised the percentage of adults who use the internet to 86% in 2019 from 67% in 2011.”
“I am keen for my officials to continue that vital work with other Administrations, because digital inclusion has been a key priority for some time, and we are collectively making real progress through shared learning. <BR /> <BR />I take the opportunity to thank the Isle of Man Ministers and officials for their hospitality and for hosting Minister Dodds and British-Irish Council ministerial colleagues across the Administrations, all of whom participated so productively in the meeting. It was agreed that the next ministerial meeting for the digital inclusion work sector will take place in 2023.”
“One such example is Connected, which is a pilot project that will provide free digital skills training and the loan of an internet-enabled tablet device for a minimum of six months to a limited number of elderly or vulnerable people. I am encouraged to see that the forward work plan will now encompass elements of online safety as well as digital skills provision. <BR /> <BR />The Council discussed at length how we might learn from the experiences of other Administrations, and there was a commitment given to making collaboration a key part of addressing the challenges. Everyone is at risk from the dangers that are posed by online threats, and, last week, Ministers endorsed the joint publication of a series of infographics that provide simple advice on how to go online safely and confidently.”
“With the introduction of COVID-19 measures across member Administrations, there has been an increased requirement to access vital services online, including track and trace, remote learning, online healthcare consultations and universal credit claims. Those who have limited access to devices and low levels of ability to interact online are in danger of being excluded. <BR /> <BR />Closing the digital divide has genuine, measurable benefits for individuals, the broader community, businesses and government. Locally, my Department's digital inclusion unit continues to promote a digitally inclusive society through a range of projects undertaken in partnership with a number of local organisations.”
“This was the second ministerial meeting of the digital inclusion work sector. It was an excellent opportunity to engage with Ministers from the other member Administrations on an area that is as relevant and important today as it has ever been, especially in the current climate of rapid advancement of new technology, digitisation and, of course, more public services being accessible online. The meeting focused on the benefits that can be derived from being online, as well as on overcoming the disadvantages that come from a lack of access. There are still significant groups of people who remain excluded because of their socio-economic status and a lack of digital skills.”
“I wish to make the following statement on the British-Irish Council digital inclusion work sector ministerial meeting, which took place in virtual format on Friday 5 March 2021. Minister Dodds and I attended, and Minister Dodds has agreed that I make this statement on behalf of us both. <BR /> <BR />The Isle of Man Government, which lead the digital inclusion work sector, hosted the meeting. Minister for Policy and Reform, Ray Harmer MHK, welcomed the delegations. The Welsh Government delegation was led by Julie James MS. The United Kingdom Government were led by Caroline Dinenage MP; the Government of Guernsey by Deputy Andrea Dudley-Owen; the Government of Jersey by Deputy Jeremy Maçon; the Scottish Government by Ivan McKee MSP; and the Irish Government were led by Eamon Ryan TD.”