Conor Murphy
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“More detailed consultations with individual childcare providers and parents are taking place this month and into February. The group agreed that the research would conclude in March 2025. The work is on schedule; there has been no delay. Childcare is an excellent example of various Departments coming together to deliver for our people.”
“The Bill looks at the issue of flexible working, but at every meeting that we have had with employers, we have made a point of talking to them about the need for them to be flexible, particularly in relation to women who are returning to the workforce, and to offer people arrangements that entice them back to the workforce and give them t…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. <BR /> <BR />Although the Department of Education leads on childcare, it is a priority for the Executive as a whole. When setting the Budget for this financial year, the Executive earmarked an additional £25 million for childcare.”
“As a matter of fact, I publicly launched the scheme and the courses in the Met last summer. My officials are also working with our six further education colleges to develop childcare microcourses for future delivery. <BR /> <BR />I also offered to assist Minister Givan's Department as required.”
“The group identified the need to better understand the business models for childcare, what type of support is needed to ensure the sector's financial viability and how support should be targeted. Given my Department's business expertise, we volunteered to take that work forward.”
“No tensions or obstacles have been placed in the way of any of that work, and I hope that that continues to be the case, because the issues are much more important than party political exchanges across the Chamber. We will continue to work in that manner.”
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“I seem to be answering topical questions on the business of a lot of other Departments today, and that is clearly a Department for Communities issue. We provide the resources if we can, and if the Executive approve that, the Department has to carry it forward. I am not certain what the hold-ups or difficulties have been. The Minister for Communities might be able to provide you with an answer on that issue.”
“I recognise the problems; I represent South Armagh, which has very similar issues with broadband connectivity, rural poverty and deprivation. My Department has been involved in a pilot scheme on IT support for vulnerable people in areas that struggle with broadband connectivity. The pilot scheme has been substantially oversubscribed, and we intend to look again at what resources can be applied to that pilot scheme. Of course, I encourage the Department of Education to look at rural areas where there are difficulties. Homeschooling is difficult enough for parents who have full access to broadband, but where it is patchy or non-existent, it is virtually impossible for people.”
“I entirely agree with the Member that the Department of Education has run two very important programmes, and my Department recently increased the money for the Engage programme. As I said in a previous answer, the Department has given £3 million to support additional IT requirements for kids who are homeschooling. <BR /> <BR />COVID money will be available next year. It will not be on the same level as this year, where we have had over £3·3 billion. We have been promised about £0·5 billion for next year. Some of that is earmarked for Education. I know that the Education Minister is very complimentary about the value of the Engage scheme in particular, and I imagine that he will bid for support on those grounds. I will be very happy to support those bids.”
“The Member has neglected to mention that we had a three-year hiatus, when the Assembly was down, in the middle of all of that. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure has been replaced by the Department for Communities, which has responsibility for that programme. The Communities Minister can answer on — perhaps, not what happened under her predecessors — what is intended to happen to that programme in the near future. I agree with the Member that we want to see things work as efficiently as they can. I also share his view that investment in sports is a very good long-term investment for society as a whole.”
“Yes, I think that it is, and that is why we included reference to best practice in the OECD in setting up the terms of reference of the fiscal council, the proposition on which I have put to the Executive.”
“That left us in a very difficult position in trying to match for the year ahead. Of course, pressures in relation to policing personnel come in under that as well.”
“I think that there is a difference between what the Member is talking about in making a bid. The bids that I have been speaking about are bids for unspent COVID money, which was the framework for his original question. The first question dealt with unspent money or underspend of money. That, of course, is to be spent in this financial year. If he is moving onto the Budget for next year, of course, as I said in response to previous questions, we did not receive any increase for any Department, so any bids or pressures identified by the Department of Justice or, indeed, by any other Department, have to be set against the reality that we had no additional money for any Department and we had no time to do a re-prioritisation exercise, which may have taken money off one Department to put it into a priority in another.”
“We are still receiving information from Departments, so I cannot. Suffice it to say that we intend to bring an updated paper to the Executive this Thursday, which I hope will capture all that we have received to date. We have left a little bit of leeway should anyone have something in the pipeline that they want to bring to our attention. My priority is to make sure that all the sectors that have missed out get an opportunity to have a case made for them. We also put in place contingency plans, which we will bring to the Executive, to spend out any remaining money to ensure that its full value goes back into the local economy or into local services.”
“This is a conversation that was had a number of weeks ago at the Executive, and we were advised by the Health Department that it could not purchase surgery in this year to be spent out in the next financial year. So, the allocation of some unspent COVID money would not have worked in that regard. I understand and appreciate the points that the Member makes, although purchasing surgery abroad might be problematic in a pandemic with the restrictions on travel. It was discussed that surgery purchased now could not be spent out in the next financial year, so it was not possible to allocate money to that. No bid came in for that in that regard either.”
“I would like to group questions 6, 8 and 11, but I doubt that we will get to supplementary questions for questions 8 and 11. <BR /> <BR />During the January monitoring round, Minister Weir submitted a bid of £3 million for children’s portable devices for the Education Authority. The bid was agreed by the Executive on 21 January 2021. The Department for Infrastructure did not submit a bid in the January monitoring round to maintain and improve rural roads. In answer to the Member's question, having provided further additional resources on 2 February and 10 February subsequent to the January monitoring round, I have now asked Executive Ministers to provide final bids for funding in 2020-21. Those are under consideration. I will update the Assembly in due course.”
“I wish that we had a much better budget to offer it for next year, but we will certainly try to protect the transformation programme as best we can in the time ahead.”
“I know that that is a key ask of the Health Department. The Member will know from my previous answers that we recognise that the health service was left under enormous pressure. When the Executive returned last January, they collectively set themselves the priority of trying to support the health service and the transformation programme. That remains Executive policy. The Member will know that, even though we have limited resources, Health gets the lion's share and tends to get the first call on any additional resources that we receive. That is as needed, because we have seen over the course of the pandemic, if we needed an example, how crucial and vital the health service is to protecting our population.”
“I hope that they will have learnt the lesson that their previous dalliance with austerity policies did not serve the public well generally, and I hope that it is not a course that they follow in future.”
“Austerity is the wrong approach. If ever we saw a lesson for the short-sightedness of cutting public services, it was the advent of the pandemic, when a range of public services, particularly the health service, which had been underfunded for years, became crucial. The direct knock-on effect of that is that the restrictions that we found ourselves with and that have had an impact on the economic activity are a consequence of trying to protect public services and making sure that the health service is not overwhelmed. There is therefore a linkage between the two. Austerity is a short-sighted policy, because it impacts on longer-term economic planning and spend. I hope that it is not a direction that the British Government revert to.”
“Last year's Budget was the first Budget to give all Departments an uplift, but, with this year's Budget, we are back to flat cash. It will therefore depend on what happens going forward. As the Member correctly identifies, if there is a reduction in capital, that will have an ongoing impact on how some of the bigger Departments can spend their money.”
“It very much depends. This year's Budget, including the capital and resource allocations, is very disappointing, because, in effect, we have got the same amount as last year, given that costs rise and salary costs rise. The budgets of most of the larger Departments have, in effect, been cut. As I said, that is very disappointing. It will therefore depend on what policy approach the British Government take. If they revert to the approach that they took to the 2008 crash, for instance, when they decided to cut public spending to introduce austerity policies, we are into a real difficulty, because I do not think that we ever fully recovered from the austerity policies and cuts that were imposed on Budgets over a number of years.”
“The Member will know that we are in the middle of a pandemic. Any future economic assessments will depend on the course and nature of the pandemic, the vaccination response and the potential for virus mutation. At this stage, it is not possible to predict accurately the medium- to long-term implications of the COVID-19 pandemic. How the pandemic will impact on the Executive's Budget will depend on a number of factors, the primary one being the approach that the British Government take to public spending in the medium to long term. We will know more once work commences on a further spending review, which will set out the medium-term Budget envelope.”
“We will do all that we can to support Departments when they identify pressures. Pressures of £1·7 billion were identified ahead of the Budget. The Budget did not deliver any additional cash, so that is a very significant level of pressure to try to meet from within existing resources, but we will continue to work with all Departments to try to assist them in managing the pressures that they face, including recruitment pressures.”
“She is clearly exercised to ensure that she can employ the requisite number of staff to deal with, unfortunately, a very high level of increase in the number of people presenting to claim universal credit. We will work closely with her, and we hope to have an improved position by the time that we get to the final Budget stage.”
“I agree with the latter points that the Member made, but I disagree that I gave a guarantee. Any Finance Minister who guarantees what money will be in next year's Budget is someone to whom you should listen very carefully. I could not give any such guarantee last year, because we did not know what was going to be in next year's Budget. We have been delivered from the Treasury, very late and at short notice, what is, essentially, a flat Budget for next year. For Departments, such as Communities, to have the same cash available as they had last year is, effectively, a cut. I have had a number of meetings with the Minister for Communities, and she has correctly identified the pressures that the Member refers to.”
“As the Member said, we have changed the terms and conditions to allow parity with those that apply to Civil Service workers. In consultation with the Strategic Investment Board (SIB), the Department has used the Buy Social initiative to include a number of social clauses in the new contracts. The contractor will deliver paid work placements for Buy Social agency workers and business and education initiatives to a school or organisation in the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector to support people's career development and employability. That support may include vocational talks, curriculum support, career guidance, workplace visits or mentoring. The contractor is also required to develop and maintain a human rights policy in relation to work carried out on that contract.”
“As I said, 50% of the agency workers are employed directly through the DWP contract, which is a service level agreement that it has with the Department for Communities. However, I agree with the Member, and, this year, we have enhanced the terms and conditions of agency workers. The best solution, where it can be found, is to have permanent workers with proper terms, conditions and career prospects.”
“There will be oversight and monitoring of the contracts to make sure that they are properly operated and that the payments reflect the service provided. <BR /> <BR />Recruitment, as you know, is not an overnight process. It is ongoing to fill vacant posts permanently. The majority of agency workers are at administrative officer (AO) level, and, as of 15 February, there were 1,749 agency workers at that grade in the Civil Service. A recent AO external competition, which allowed current agency workers within the Civil Service to apply, has resulted in over 560 letters of offer being issued to date. There is an attempt to reduce reliance on agency workers and to increase the numbers of permanent staff.”
“Those reasons include covering periods of staff absence, supporting time-limited projects or contractual work or, where necessary, to cover permanent vacancies pending substantive appointments. <BR /> <BR />Approximately 50% of agency workers in the Civil Service are assigned to the Department for Communities to discharge benefit processing services on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) under the terms of service-level agreements. The salary costs of all those staff are funded by DWP via the Department for Communities. Of the eight contracts, six were awarded to Premiere Employment Group Limited. The total estimated value of the Premiere contracts is £394 million.”
“Construction and procurement delivery, in conjunction with Civil Service human resources, has completed procurement to provide agency workers for a wide variety of posts in the Civil Service, agencies and non-departmental public bodies. Within that procurement, a total of eight contracts were awarded, the estimated total value of all contracts being £425 million. As the use of the contract is demand-driven, the figures provided are estimates, rather than a guaranteed level of business. <BR /> <BR />Like many organisations, the Civil Service uses agency workers to carry out work that, for a variety of reasons, cannot be completed by substantive Civil Service staff.”
“I have been told that support may well be sought for travel agents, which I very much welcome, but it is for the Departments that have responsibility for those sectors to bring bids forward.”
“We have been sounding like a broken record for the last number of weeks in encouraging Ministers to bring forward bids for any area of responsibility or any sector that falls under the broad ambit of their Department, in recognition that some of the sectors that she mentioned have, thus far, received little or no support. The support that we provided to airports covered businesses in the airport and gave rate relief and other support to them. As I said, in the first instance, keeping the airports open and enabling them to pick up again when we emerge from this pandemic will be crucial. <BR /> <BR />In some cases, bids have been brought forward for other sectors, including the taxi industry.”
“<BR /> <BR />If respective Ministers believe that there are gaps in the provision of support for the industries that they have responsibility for, I will fully consider any proposals that they develop.”
“<BR /> <BR />This support follows on from a series of Executive-agreed announcements last year specifically to help to sustain the aviation sector during the pandemic, including over £3·1 million in direct business rate support to our airports and other businesses within the airport sites. My Department is also holding £150 million aside for consideration of additional business rate relief in the next financial year, and regional airports will be considered as part of that. That, in turn, is in addition to a broader range of schemes that have been put in place by the Executive and Treasury to provide significant support to businesses more generally.”
“The responsibility for airports rests with the Infrastructure Minister. Although the responsibility for air connectivity and, indeed, wider economic support, including the COVID restrictions business support scheme to support businesses in the supply chains of affected businesses, rests with the Economy Minister, my Department is in the process of implementing a £10 million package of support for the Belfast airports under emergency powers granted by the First and deputy First Ministers. The Infrastructure Minister is providing £1·2 million of similar Executive support to the City of Derry Airport. Keeping the airports open is the first step in supporting the businesses that work with them.”
“I agree with the Member about moving quickly to that position; we have spoken about the issue in recent days. I see a role for the Committee, of course, in that. The fiscal council will have responsibility to look over the Executive's finances to make sure that we are on a sustainable footing. Interaction with the Procurement Board, which provides policy for spending £3 billion, will be an important function. Any agencies or bodies that have an impact or give advice on spending will be of interest to the council. We fully expect the council, when it is up and working, to have wide engagement not only with bodies outside government that have an interest but with this institution, Departments and arm's-length bodies.”
“The fiscal council will be operational as soon as the Executive approve it, which, I hope, will be in a matter of days. The council's relationship with the Department of Finance is that the costs will be met by the Department, and we have already budgeted for that. We will provide a secretariat and support from a senior departmental official. Clearly, the intent is that the commission, like similar commissions, will move onto a more solid footing with legislative underpinning. If they have specific requirements, we will be happy to work with them. We have encouraged them to engage with all stakeholders as soon as they are up and running.”
“The initial proposition is to get these bodies established and to allow them to develop from there.”
“For the fiscal council, I have brought initial propositions in order to set it up. The experience in other jurisdictions, as the Member said, is that, once a body was set up, it moved onto a legislative footing. We and the Finance Committee, on which the Member sits, will have an interest in that. We have asked the personnel involved in the fiscal council and the fiscal commission to engage early with stakeholders, including the Finance Committee. Clearly, we want to see that. We want independence to be firmly established. As it begins its work, whatever resource and support is needed will be provided by the Department. Senior officials in the Department will support the council, the commission and the secretariat. Should they require any other resources or support, we are very happy to look at that.”
“I thank the Member for her question. The intention is that the fiscal commission will look at the broad range of economic, policy and revenue-raising levers available to the Executive and make recommendations, as has been done in Scotland and Wales on a number of occasions. It is envisaged that the fiscal commission will engage over the rest of this calendar year and produce a report for the Executive. Given the time frame in this mandate, it is more than likely that it will become a point of action for an incoming Executive. When its work has been done, any decisions taken by the Executive will then become a matter of immediate interest to a fiscal council. I see the work of both bodies being interlinked.”
“With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I wish to group questions 2 and 12 together. <BR /> <BR />I have put forward proposals to the Executive for establishing a fiscal council and a fiscal commission. Those include terms of reference for and membership of both bodies. Once the Executive have considered those proposals, I hope that we will be able to put the council and the commission in place very quickly so that they can begin their important work.”
“We recognise that the costs over the 30 years — those are the costs that the Government Actuary's Department came up with, not us — have to be paid, and if we have to pay them, that will have a huge impact. I have no desire to play off public services against the needs of victims. We want to see the issue resolved, but the British Government added the substantial costs to the policy; therefore, they have a duty to meet those costs.”
“The Member says that the money should be found "wherever it is found", but he clearly does not indicate where it should be found, so he has not come off the fence. Perhaps he could say whether he thinks that the Executive should pay for the scheme in its entirety and that the British Government should not make any contribution. If he feels that the British Government should make a contribution, we in the Executive are right to pursue them for that. He is sitting on the fence because he will not declare his hand. He is just saying, "Somebody should sort this. It should not go on much longer". Of course, from his position in opposition, he does not have to come up with the answers for any of it. <BR /> <BR />We are trying to sort it.”
“We need that urgent discussion with the Secretary of State in order to get the issue resolved.”
“As I said, the cost will be anything between £600 million and £1·2 billion, depending on whether people seek payments up front, which could change the profile of payments year-on-year. However, if we take it at the upper level and do a rough allocation across Departments, we are talking about a cost of about £615 million to the Department of Health and £227 million to the Department of Education and so on, right down the level of spending for all Departments. You can see that it will have a very significant impact on our public services. <BR /> <BR />That is not to play off what victims deserve and need against public services, because that would be a very cruel thing for the Government to try to do to us, as we want not only to provide the best possible public services but to meet the very real requirements of victims.”
“We wanted to include the payment levels in the draft Budget paper that we have produced, and we certainly want to include the levels for payment in the final Budget paper, which we will come to in the next couple of weeks.”
“Of course, that is a matter for the Executive to decide. If the Executive decide that they are going to carry the burden of the entirety of the cost, the upward figure, as I said, is estimated by the Government Actuary's Department to be £1·2 billion. That will have serious knock-on implications for other public services that we provide over the lifetime of the scheme. Many more upfront costs may well be attached to that than were previously estimated, given that people may opt for a lump sum rather than a pension over many years. <BR /> <BR />All those issues create huge levels of uncertainty, and that is why we need that discussion with the British Government. The Secretary of State has decided to take the lead on the matter, and we have been pressing for a discussion with him.”
“While it is a demand-led scheme, it is very hard to give an accurate estimation, but those costs make it hugely challenging, if not unaffordable, for the Executive to carry the burden alone, not to mention the fact that it is contrary to the British Government's own policy, having set the policy and legislated for it. <BR /> <BR />The Department of Justice received money for the administration of the scheme, and the Executive were very clear that, on the payments for the victims, which we are committed to and want to see happening, we need that discussion urgently. That is why we have been pressing since last year for a discussion with the Secretary of State to try to apportion the costs of the scheme.”
“The most recent report that we got from the Government Actuary's Department estimated that the cost could be anything between £600 million and £1·2 billion, which is an increase on the high-level estimate that the Department of Justice had placed on it. <BR /> <BR />As the Member will know, the additional bits of the scheme that were added by a previous Secretary of State, such as psychological injury, including to people based outside the jurisdiction, and injuries, including psychological injuries, for armed forces personnel, have substantially increased the potential cost.”
“He has now agreed to a meeting, which is due to take place tomorrow.”
“A LeasCheann Comhairle, with your permission, I will group questions 1, 9 and 14. <BR /> <BR />I, along with my Executive colleagues, am committed to ensuring the delivery of the victims’ payment scheme. With that in mind, as part of the draft Budget, the Executive have allocated some £6·7 million towards the preparation costs for the introduction of a scheme. The wider payments issue requires urgent attention. <BR /> <BR />While TEO identified estimated costs in respect of scheme payments, the Executive were agreed on the need to further the matter of funding with the Secretary of State, whose predecessor’s actions led to a significant increase in the potential cost of the scheme. I, along with the First and deputy First Ministers and the Minister of Justice, have been trying to meet with the Secretary of State for some time.”
“There will be no room for professional judgement, and there will be more aversion to risk and more bureaucracy. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, the Bill is unnecessary and disproportionate and will achieve little beyond what is already required in government. Its main achievement will be to impose a statutory requirement when an administrative one is appropriate. In so doing, it undermines professional judgement in the Civil Service and diverts the resources of the police and the courts towards investigating administrative matters. Approving the Bill might give Members a good headline for a day, but it will cause long-term damage to the efficient and effective administration of government here. Making law is a serious responsibility with serious consequences, and I urge Members to oppose the Bill.”
“Those are not insignificant matters, and they have lasting consequences that can lead to dismissal. Indeed, with the exception of the offence of unauthorised disclosure, the Bill does not increase the penalties for breaching standards and codes of conduct, but it does bring the police and the courts into adjudicating on routine administrative matters such as whether a meeting was minuted properly or whether a taxi driver expressing an opinion to a Minister constitutes lobbying. Members should ask themselves whether asking the police and the court system to investigate those administrative matters represents a good use of their resources. Even though there are no legal penalties in most of the Bill's clauses, the possibility of facing police investigation or being brought before the courts will have a chilling effect on the Civil Service.”
“The codes and the guidance were further examined in light of the RHI inquiry report by the Executive subcommittee on reform, and very minor amendments were proposed to reflect the inquiry panel's specific recommendations. The RHI inquiry did not recommend putting codes of conduct into law, and nor has the Assembly or the Finance Committee suggested any amendments to the codes. However, we committed to keeping them under review, and that is what we are doing. <BR /> <BR />The Bill sponsor argues that codes are just codes and that the law has greater bite. Breaking the law may have more serious consequences than breaching a code, but not necessarily. A breach of the codes of conduct and ethics is a disciplinary matter for civil servants, as is a breach of the ministerial code for Ministers.”
“This legislation has its own standing and will have its own effect as soon as it receives assent and, beyond that, within six months, when the Civil Service codes have to be agreed. Today, I had to send a memo to all my Executive colleagues to advise them of the outcome of this legislation should it be passed today and the impact that it will have on their Departments and their permanent secretaries in preparing to meet those impacts. Regardless of what the codes do, the legislation has an impact, and the Member should be aware of that, as, I am sure, he is. <BR /> <BR />We are going further on transparency than the Bill requires for the publication of interests. Those commitments were agreed by the Executive as part of the political talks.”