Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“Yes, absolutely. That is why I will go out at night to meet those who are most affected and see for myself the impact that we are having and what, if any, changes can be made. I am more than happy to report to the House on that. Absolutely, we need to ensure that we spend money as wisely as we can. It can go towards good projects, but are there better initiatives that we can look at? I am happy to explore all those because we are talking about people who, often due to health and mental health issues, are right on the fringes. We need to provide them with the support to get back to where they need to be.”
“Yes, I have met organisations that are involved in that. I believe that, next week or possibly the week after, I will be going out at night to meet those who are directly on the front line.”
“I am proud of the change of approach that has been taken since I have come into the Department. However, I am not stopping here: I will continue to deliver, especially for those most in need.”
“Yes, absolutely. We have made more progress in the strategic shift towards homelessness prevention in the past two years than my predecessors were able to make in the entirety of their tenures. Where have the funding allocations come from? They have come from the Finance Ministry. Why was homelessness prevention not a priority when that party also held the Finance portfolio? In spite of the budget allocations that I continue to receive, this year alone, I have ring-fenced an additional £2·5 million for strategic homelessness prevention, provided £3 million to the New Foundations project and provided an additional £1 million to bring forward new and extended Supporting People services. That is in addition to the £4·3 million allocated to the Housing Executive for community homelessness prevention activities.”
“Absolutely. The Member is right to raise that issue. When you consider some of the most acute need that we see in our society and those who are right on the edges and fringes of it, you often see that those issues are not just related to the absence of housing but to other health — particularly mental health — issues that are taking place. That is why there is close collaboration between the Department for Communities and the Department of Health. Officials work closely to address those issues. That is why you will see specific actions coming forward in the first action plan for the housing supply strategy as well.”
“My Department will continue to work closely with partners across the Executive to explore opportunities for meaningful joint working and to ensure greater collaboration and engagement at strategic level to prevent homelessness. As part of that, officials are currently working with Departments to develop the next interdepartmental homelessness action plans.”
“That is a specific priority in the Programme for Government.”
“I regularly engage with Executive colleagues and stress the need for greater collaboration to prevent homelessness. Homelessness prevention is a key objective in the housing supply strategy that I brought to the Executive, and it is a priority in the Executive's Programme for Government. Along with the Minister of Health, I have launched the New Foundations project to help prevent young people who are leaving care from entering homelessness.”
“I can assure the Member that I have been completely consistent and have taken the same approach to all those strategies.”
“Yes, I can. There has been an entirely consistent approach. I have had to deal with the hand that I have been dealt. The co-design groups were in place, and I needed to take on board the work that they had done. However, important though that work was, it was important that it was brought into cross-departmental working groups so that we could work out what is affordable and deliverable. That is why we are going through the process. The Ulster-Scots and Irish language strategies, the anti-poverty strategy, the disability strategy and the disability and work plans have all gone through the same process. I want to make sure that we look at the problems that we are trying to tackle and find out how we can best tackle them and what is affordable and deliverable.”
“At a time when our finances are —. <BR /> <BR />The fact that he is shouting from a sedentary position confirms that he got it wrong, but I am more than happy to have a debate with him on those issues at another time. <BR /> <BR />We need to make sure that we consider carefully what we spend our money on and make sure that it is properly prioritised.”
“I know that the truth can sometimes hurt, but it is very clear that he was not able to understand what those letters said. Perhaps the Assembly could provide some training in that regard.”
“I know that the Member was embarrassed by his performance at the Committee last week.”
“Yes, absolutely, and that is a key part of the cross-departmental working group's plans. The same approach was taken to the anti-poverty strategy. When we bring forward actions, we need to make sure that they are affordable and that we look at them in the round in the context of our wider priorities. <BR /> <BR />I know that the Chairman of the Communities Committee is very interested in cost. In fact, when I confirmed, after multiple Assembly questions, Committee letters and other correspondence, that there was no cost involved in updating the DFC logo, he still could not accept or understand that. That raises a wider question, because it is important —.”
“This is an important point of law and was a crucial part of the negotiations that took place 20 years ago and led to the restoration of this place in 2007. It is imperative that the law is followed.”
“No, I will not, because this is an important point of process. The law is in place and needs to be followed. I strongly contend — this is why I am intervening in the case — that the Minister for Infrastructure has not abided by the law and has stepped outside of it. There is a requirement to bring issues that are significant, cross-cutting or controversial to the Executive. This is clearly controversial. In my view, it is clearly cross-cutting, and, therefore, it should come to the Executive. Ministers should know better. It is entirely right and appropriate to do this. If a Minister acts outside that process, that is not only a breach of the law but, perhaps, shows that there is an understanding that the proposal would not have got the required support. We do not go on ourselves; we work together to find a way forward.”
“The Member will be aware that the work is for not just the Department for Communities but, through the cross-departmental working group, all Departments. He raises a good point about resource. We need to make sure that anything that is agreed is affordable, and that will be an important part of the work. That is the role of the cross-departmental working group, because, although we will always have the expert advisory panels and co-design groups that put information into the Department, it is the politicians and Ministers who, as decision makers, ultimately need to make sure that it is affordable.”
“Even when things go against the wants and desires of the vast majority of people, his party is willing to put in place a policy that is not conducive to good relations. The Member should take a look in the mirror if he is concerned about the development of the Irish language. I will continue to work for everybody in Northern Ireland and find a way forward that has consensus and is affordable and effective.”
“No, it has not become that. That is what the Member and his party have tried to portray. I have treated everybody equitably. I have met individuals and organisations; I have attended events; and I will continue to engage with people across the breadth of my portfolio. I know that it is in his political interests to say otherwise, and he and his party have tried that in relation to the strategy: even when the issue has been outside my control, he has tried to portray that as hostility to the language. <BR /> <BR />It is his party that, through the moves that it has made, has done more to harm the development of the Irish language in our society. Take, for example, the 15% threshold for street signage in Belfast.”
“Once the group has completed its work programme, and upon receipt of relevant departmental approvals, officials will bring forward both draft strategies for my consideration. I will then bring them to the Executive.”
“All Departments are currently engaged in the development of the Ulster-Scots language, heritage and culture strategy and the Irish language strategy through the work programme of the cross-departmental working group. The group's work builds on the work of each strategy's expert advisory panel and co-design group to ensure that each strategy is coherent, costed and accompanied by a series of achievable actions within departmental remits. <BR /> <BR />The detailed timing for that work is, to a large degree, outside the control of my Department. There is a wide range of material to consider, and the working group members need to take into account their existing departmental priorities and budgets and the practicalities involved in delivering on the vision.”
“Many surveys and pieces of research have been done over the years, but none of us needs those to understand and recognise that, without question, such participation is beneficial. It gets more people more active more often and improves wider health and societal outcomes. That is why I am so keen to make sure that we continue to invest in and have facilities that can be used by people across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The Your School Your Club programme is so important because so much of our sporting estate is within the school estate. I want that to be open all hours, as far as possible, so that the school and then the wider community can benefit. That has not been done on such a scale before. I am committed to continuing to find innovative ways of ensuring that we get all the facilities that we need and deserve.”
“I hope that that fund can continue, but I will do everything that I can to make sure there is provision available, especially for hockey, which has seen such growth in recent years.”
“In the past couple of weeks, I also had a very good meeting with Ulster Hockey, at which some of the concerns that the Member raised in her question were expressed. I am committed to developing sporting facilities in Northern Ireland, and that is why I established the Olympic legacy fund, which allows organisations to apply for match funding through Crowdfunder. I am sure that the Member will be aware of many organisations in her own constituency that are doing just that. <BR /> <BR />I always want to see more money for sport. We are operating in a constrained budgetary environment, and that is why the Olympic legacy fund is such a good programme, because it combines government support and money raised.”
“I will therefore continue to allocate additional levels of funding to the programme, as will my colleague Paul Givan, in order to ensure that we deliver vital sporting resources to our communities right across Northern Ireland.”
“Absolutely. I am a strong supporter of the programme because I have seen the change that it can make, not just in schools but in the communities that they serve. That is why I increased its budget from £500,000 to £3 million this year, which is why so many projects have gone ahead. <BR /> <BR />The programme is also a good example of two Departments working together to deliver real outcomes for people across Northern Ireland. We should all want to see more people get active. To do so, they need the facilities. As well as all the obvious sporting benefits, we are benefiting health outcomes, social inclusion and community cohesion.”
“I advise the Member not to come to the Chamber with any insinuation or unfounded allegation. I have just set out the process by which money was allocated, including the use of the Northern Ireland multiple deprivation score. The allocations have been made fairly and transparently. Sport NI was asked to make them on the Department's behalf, and I am confident that they have been made in the right way.”
“The required information included a description of the project; current users and additional users; current hours and additional hours; details of programmes and activities; a weekly timetable of estimated use; finance for the project, including project costs and partnership funding; two years of accounts; and the Northern Ireland multiple deprivation score.”
“The Your School Your Club programme is delivered on behalf of my Department by Sport NI. Its chief executive officer has advised me that a two-stage application process was used to identify and select projects. Stage-1 applicants were required to provide evidence of four mandatory criteria: managing authority support, board of governors support, security of tenure and, if required, planning approval. <BR /> <BR />Schools that met all stage-1 requirements progressed to stage 2, at which they were asked to submit additional information. That was assessed against a scoring matrix that was developed by Sport NI, which included value-for-money weighting.”
“I reassure the Member that we do not have any stadiums currently under construction. No funding agreements are in place, either. On that basis, perhaps the Member will reconsider his position.”
“I am not giving way, Mr McNulty. If we read the motion and the amendment, everybody should be willing to accept them, but, unfortunately, some Members are so blinded that they are not prepared to accept reasonable proposals.”
“No, I am not giving way. <BR /> <BR />— their old tired ideas about Casement Park, rather than looking at the motion. If we read —”
“I am reluctant to give way to the Member, because I thought that his was a lazy speech. His speech did not address the motion. This was not a proper debate about the rights and wrongs of a clawback; it was people repeating their old tired —”
“That is kind of the Member, but I urge him, even at this last minute, to reconsider. If we are serious about spending money wisely and want to ensure equality and equal treatment, it would be wise for him to get on board.”
“I envisage it being used primarily for the regional stadia. We are talking about a portion of significant commercial income. I am not sure that smaller clubs that have been impacted by that fund would get that commercial return, so that is still fair. That is a reasonable point. I am not even saying that it will generate a lot of income, but I am asking this: why would we not allow that option to be there and consider it? <BR /> <BR />The way that this appears to be going is disappointing. Much of the debate has been about one organisation being singled out over others. The amendment gives us a way to consider the issue and ensure that everybody is treated fairly. I encourage —”
“I urge the Alliance Party, as I urge everybody in the Chamber, to reconsider. It is an option that may make us more sustainable and give us a return so that we can invest more in the future.”
“I say that we should treat everybody the same: if additional funding is required for the other stadia, treat them the same. There is an opportunity for us today to agree, on the basis of equality, that everybody should be treated equally. The motion does not determine exactly how much or what percentage; it opens the door to successful commercial ventures to give a return. <BR /> <BR />I was disappointed with some of the responses, and I count the Alliance Party in that. In Ms Mulholland's short contribution, she said that she did not want to deepen division and felt that there was an issue of equality, because it was a case of one being picked out over others. However, the amendment gives her an opportunity to show that everybody can be treated equally and to demonstrate financial prudence and responsibility.”
“Funding agreements were in place with Windsor Park and with Ravenhill, and a default on those funding agreements would have necessitated a clawback and allowed it to happen. A funding agreement for Casement Park has not been put in place. One of the reasons why a new funding agreement is needed is that there is additional FTC. It is up to the Executive to decide how the equity share works out. With most FTC, there is a requirement for some return on the loan that is given. <BR /> <BR />The motion does not say that all commercial profit needs to come back; it says that "an agreed proportion" should come back. It asks whether, if something is commercially successful and there is a large return from such events, it is only fair that the public purse should get a little back.”
“Yes, I am happy to give way to the Member, who, I think, wants to use this as an opportunity to have a go at unionism. She did not address the motion earlier.”
“If your concern is that this is only about the GAA, vote for the amendment and make sure that, from here on, everybody is treated equally and that, if there are significant commercial returns for one organisation or all the organisations involved, there could be some return for the public purse. We invest public money on the basis that it is required because there is no other option for organisations to develop, but, if they subsequently become successful, is it not right — is there not benefit in this? — to make sure that that comes our way?”
“Mr Durkan, let me finish my sentence. Perhaps it will all become clear to him. <BR /> <BR />If that is Members' concern, the amendment helpfully tabled by Mr Carroll provides a way for everybody to be treated equally. We have heard the word "equality" time and again. The amendment means that, from this point, people will be treated equitably. It opens the door to allowing a clawback that, by the way, is nothing new. As Mr Gaston pointed out, it exists in other parts of the United Kingdom, and it has existed in Northern Ireland. I think in particular of the opportunity that urban development grants gave to different areas. The success of that allowed a clawback.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have to say that I am surprised by the response of some in the House today. We have frequently heard from the parties opposite the refrain that this explicitly targets the GAA. Some may be supportive —”
“The programme has consistently operated on the principle that capital investment should strengthen each sporting code's long-term financial sustainability and reduce future reliance on government revenue support. Central to that approach has been enabling venues to diversify income through a range of commercial and non-sporting activities. Public money is given because there is an expectation that market failure has taken place and there is no other option open to venues to get them where to need to be. However, if an organisation is particularly commercially successful in making significant sums from commercial venues, most people will see that it is only right that such a return should be made to the public purse. For those reasons, I believe that the motion and the amendment are entirely reasonable.”
“It is entirely appropriate that Members should have the ability to consider how best to safeguard public investment and the forms of return that may be justified. There are legitimate matters for scrutiny here, particularly where publicly funded facilities may also operate as commercial venues for events beyond their primary sporting purpose. It will also be necessary to assess the amendment within the broader policy framework that has guided the regional stadia programme since its inception.”
“The commercial management and operation of Casement Park, once completed, will therefore lie with the Ulster Council of the GAA, in accordance with the conditions of the existing funding agreement and any new funding model pertaining to the additional funding streams. <BR /> <BR />The amendment raises an important issue about the future management of public funding for stadia in general. It proposes that public investment in any stadia currently under construction and in future projects be contingent on a legally enforceable clawback mechanism:”
“<BR /> <BR />It is also important that we have consistency on the proportion of funding already allocated to the programme. An important aim of the programme of capital investment in regional stadia is to reduce the three main sports' future reliance on ongoing revenue support from government. The principle that has been applied in the regional stadia programme is that capital investment supports each sport's ability to develop long-term financial sustainability. Of course, commercial activities form part of that sustainability, as they allow the governing bodies to operate and maintain their facilities without additional, ongoing public revenue support.”
“It is important to note that that work has not concluded and that any proposals will have to be agreed with all stakeholders and parties to the funding agreements. It is something that we should all be open to, however. <BR /> <BR />At this stage, I will sound a note of caution about Casement Park and all other capital projects. Funding for them all will be subject to a business case. A project's viability will be rigorously tested through the business case process, in which it must demonstrate value for money and sustainability. As part of the process, value for money is embedded across all aspects, including, where appropriate, any scope to return profits from non-sporting events to the public purse. There are no special cases or exemptions from the process.”
“The then Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure had funding arrangements in place with the IFA and Ulster Rugby, but, now that there are additional funding streams coming from other sources, we will have to look again at all options for future funding agreements. <BR /> <BR />My officials are currently considering an amended funding model to accommodate the new funding streams available to the Casement Park stadium, including the specific requirements of the UK Government's equity financial transactions capital element. I await advice on how new funding streams will be handled. That will, however, allow us to look at various funding models, which can include those that minimise the impact on the public purse.”
“That is why I, along with other Ministers, need to make sure that we spend the available money wisely. The immediate challenge is to live within the existing budget envelope. The challenge of more for less is here to stay. We therefore need to be open to all options. We all want value for money and for stadiums and other assets to be sustainable. We all want to assist and support partners to develop and grow. <BR /> <BR />Members will be aware that Casement Park is the third and final project in the regional stadia programme. The other two major projects — Ravenhill and Windsor Park — were completed and became operational in 2014 and 2016 respectively.”
“Unlawful decisions, community objections and safety certificate scandals all led to significant planning delays. As a result of those delays, costs have spiralled. <BR /> <BR />The project has not been without controversy, and there continues to be controversy; in fact, even over the past couple of months, senior figures in Monaghan and Tyrone GAA have expressed their opposition to the current plans. Let us not pretend that everybody is in agreement or that there is a simple and straightforward path for everybody to go down. Mr McNulty and others say, "Let's just get on with it and get the stadium built", but we know that there are significant barriers in the way. <BR /> <BR />We are also aware that additional capital allocations are currently unaffordable in the context of squeezed capital budgets for public services.”