Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“Yes, that is an issue that was raised at the meeting. We had a conversation about the approaches that are taken in different areas. The powers in the Private Tenancies Act have lapsed, but, in any case, the independent research commissioned by the Department clearly outlined the potential negative impacts of rent controls. In particular, the research report highlighted the point that a large proportion of landlords may exit the private rental market and that would result in a greater shortage of available private rented properties in an already stretched market. The research report concluded that the best way for us to relieve pressure on affordability for renters is by increasing the housing supply and ensuring that the benefits system properly takes account of the cost of housing.”
“Over the past number of years, we have seen various changes to the law across the UK and Ireland and in other Administrations on that issue. As the Chair will be aware, I am taking forward some of the issues that were included in the Private Tenancies Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. We have made good progress on some of them already, albeit more is to be done. The private rented sector is an area of concern, and the meeting was another good opportunity for us to share the learning that exists in different Administrations.”
“No, that was not mentioned at the meeting, and I do not think that it will be the case that we will receive additional funding for housing. I have, however, made the case to Executive colleagues on the importance of housing. I secured a commitment in the draft Programme for Government that housing is a stand-alone item, and I expect that to be reflected when budgetary conversations take place. I have been able to secure additional funding this year for the social housing development programme, and I hope that I will be successful in securing more.”
“Indeed, some Administrations have been very innovative in that area, and others are keen to examine what more they can do in that space. <BR /> <BR />All Administrations are managing the increased use of homelessness services and temporary accommodation. That is partly due to pressures found across the housing market. There is also the increasing complexity of people presenting with mental health and addiction issues who require much support. Collectively, we can continue to learn from various approaches across these islands. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I thank all my ministerial colleagues who participated so productively in the meeting. It has been agreed that the next ministerial meeting for the housing work sector will take place in 2026.”
“Housing costs form the largest part of most household budgets, and ensuring that costs remain affordable is key to avoiding an increase in poverty. Private rents and house prices continue to rise, and, as a result, there is considerable pressure right across the housing system but in particular on social housing. All Administrations continue to innovate to introduce new models of intermediate housing, and much of that work has been informed by the conversations that have taken place in the BIC's housing work sector. Given the pressures on the conventional sources of investment that are traditionally used for affordable housing, Administrations have sought out more innovative forms of subsidies, such as loans, loan guarantees, long-term private capital loans and developer contributions.”
“We can learn from what is being done elsewhere.”
“<BR /> <BR />All member Administrations have demanding targets for achieving net zero and preparing for a switch away from carbon-based fuel sources that are used to heat homes and water. While there are challenges with new builds, there are particular challenges with retrofitting old buildings that were not built for such technologies. The housing work sector will include consideration of more energy-efficient building techniques, new heating technologies, changing resident behaviour and ensuring a just transition. <BR /> <BR />Different approaches have been taken across the islands to ensure that the private rental sector delivers high-quality, secure and affordable homes for tenants. Members will be aware that we are undergoing a process of reform here, as are most other BIC Administrations.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ministers considered and reflected on the papers that were presented at the ministerial meeting, which included a discussion of the challenges and opportunities of improving housing supply. Much of that reflects the work that I am taking forward in the delivery of a new housing supply strategy that will provide a framework to address the challenges here. Ministers also noted and agreed the content of the forward work plan for the housing work sector, which identified the work sector's areas of focus for the next three years. The areas of focus for the sector that were agreed by Ministers are residential net zero and retrofit; the private rental sector; affordable housing models; attracting private sector investment for housing; and homelessness and temporary accommodation.”
“The group has proved to be a constructive forum for facilitating thematic evidence exchange and practical collaboration. The meeting on 20 September focused on the housing work sector's programme of work carried out since 2021 as well as the forward work plan that will cover the period from now until 2026. I chaired the meeting in my role as Minister responsible for housing, and, as I said, the Executive were also represented by junior Minister Reilly. The Government of Ireland were represented by Mr Alan Dillon TD; the Scottish Government by Mr Paul McLennan; the Welsh Government by Jayne Bryant; the Isle of Man Government by Tim Crookall; the Government of Jersey by Sam Mézec; the Government of Guernsey by Deputy Lindsay de Sausmarez; and the UK Government by Baroness Taylor of Stevenage.”
“With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, and in compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following report on the British-Irish Council (BIC) housing work sector ministerial meeting on 20 September. Aisling Reilly MLA, junior Minister in the Executive Office, also represented the Executive at the meeting. The report has been endorsed by us both, and she has agreed that I make the statement on our behalf. <BR /> <BR />The British-Irish Council, established in 1999, is a forum for its members to discuss, consult and use best endeavours to reach agreement on cooperation on matters of mutual interest within the competence of its member Administrations. The British-Irish Council housing work sector is led by the Executive.”
“All the things that we are trying to do will contribute to tackling the issue that has plagued so many areas across Northern Ireland, particularly North Belfast. It is wrong to say that tackling poverty is not in the Programme for Government, because it is, of course, one of our priorities. <BR /> <BR />My time is coming to an end, but I hope that, in the short time that I had, Members will have seen my commitment to dealing with the issue. We will put in place a strategy that will deal with the key stages, and I hope that we will end up with better outcomes for people right across Northern Ireland.”
“It is exceptionally important that those issues are addressed, and, as Members can see, they all tie in with each other. <BR /> <BR />Those are the keys to tackling poverty, which is why I take exception to the comments from Robbie Butler and Sinéad McLaughlin. Poverty has not been left out of the Programme for Government. Now, of course, a consultation is going on, and the Member may respond to it and say that she wants it to be spelt out more clearly. However, let us look at some of the priorities in the Programme for Government: housing is a priority, which we have said is key to tackling poverty; healthcare is a priority, and we have said that it is key to tackling poverty; education is a priority, and it is key to tackling poverty; good jobs are a priority, and they are key to tackling poverty.”
“The first was that the strategy will require cross-departmental work. It is not solely the responsibility of any one Department, but there are a number of things that we need to do. I have heard different Members talk about the importance of education and the poverty of aspiration. I absolutely believe that education is the key to keeping people out of poverty. We need to make sure that education is a focus and a priority, and I intend to focus on childhood education and lifelong learning as part of the strategy. We also touched briefly on the issue of housing, which is fundamental. How can you get the good education that you need if you are in temporary accommodation and constantly moving around? How can you get a good job that will sustain you and your family if you do not have the necessary skills?”
“I know how long people have waited for the strategy. As Carál Ní Chuilín pointed out, they have been waiting since the Northern Ireland Act was put in place. I am determined that we will deliver it, and I hope that Members will see that this is the way forward to tackle poverty overall. When thinking of child poverty, we cannot separate it from poverty in general. Poverty does not happen in isolation to children; it happens to families and to those in the wider community, so it is right that we take this approach. I will be happy to discuss the strategy further with Members as we make progress on it. <BR /> <BR />I will address some of the issues that were raised, although I hope that I have done so already. You will have seen my commitment to addressing the issue, but some issues came up time and time again.”
“Already, you can see that work being done in some of the job programmes that my Department is responsible for. Job Start was a fantastic programme. Just last week, I met a single mum who was on universal credit. She got work through the Job Start programme and is now in work in a situation that works for her and her family. That is why all these issues together are so important. <BR /> <BR />It is right that we look at this through a whole-system and all-government approach and that we do everything that we can to minimise the risk of falling into poverty, minimise the impact of poverty and also help people to exit poverty. Those will be the three pillars of the anti-poverty strategy. We have actions that we would like to see developed, and we are trying to make sure that we get buy-in from other Departments so that we can push along.”
“That means ensuring that people have the resources that they need and that, again, they have access to education and the help and support that they need for their physical and mental health; that we address issues of place, crime and safety; and that, importantly, we deal with the issue of housing, including fuel poverty, which is a huge driver of poverty overall. <BR /> <BR />Thirdly, I want to make sure that we do everything that we can to support people to exit poverty. We need to make sure that people find themselves in the right economic and employment conditions. We need to support people getting back into work to gain employment and to have the further education opportunities and, importantly, the childcare that they need in order to work.”
“First, I want to make sure that we minimise the risk of falling into poverty. There are a number of ways in which we can do that over the longer term. It is about making sure that children have the best start in life through education. It is about dealing with issues such as debt and ensuring that issues such as disability and addiction are given the proper support that they need, because those are all factors that lead to an increased risk of people falling into poverty. <BR /> <BR />The second thing that I want to do is make sure that we minimise the impact of poverty when people fall into it.”
“I have written to all Departments and stood up the cross-departmental working group so that we can get the buy-in from other Departments that is necessary to make sure that we work collectively to address the issue. That has been raised time and time again during today's debate. Tackling poverty in Northern Ireland is not solely my responsibility. I am in a position to work with Executive colleagues to bring forward the draft strategy that we now have, and we are going out to the other Departments to get their buy-in so that we can move it forward. I hope that it will be agreed by the Executive early in the new year. I want that buy-in from other Departments so that we are ready to go and can start to tackle the issues that we face. <BR /> <BR />How are we going to do that? There will be three main areas in the strategy.”
“I do not intend to go over the work that is already being done. Mr Brett mentioned excellent work that is being done, especially through the community and voluntary sector: significant actions that are alleviating some of the worst impacts of poverty on North Belfast. More work has been done through the neighbourhood renewal programme, which has provided sustained support to areas of deprivation across North Belfast in 2024-25, with £3·8 million having been invested across 45 projects. Lots is being done, but we all know that there is a lot more work to do. <BR /> <BR />I will get straight to it and talk about what I intend to do to tackle this issue in North Belfast and across Northern Ireland. I am pleased to announce to the House that I have agreed the next steps on the anti-poverty strategy.”
“I hope that Members will not mind that I am not going to repeat the statistics that have been outlined today. Child poverty is, of course, a serious issue across Northern Ireland, but I understand that it is particularly acute in North Belfast and the other constituencies that have been mentioned. It exists throughout Northern Ireland, unfortunately, and that is why my approach will be to do everything that I can to tackle it everywhere, in every part of Northern Ireland. That will, of course, apply to North Belfast.”
“We are impacted on as policymakers and decision makers in this place, and there are some things that we might like to do in society but cannot, because of the damaging impacts that poverty brings with it. Tackling poverty, in all its forms, is a key priority for me, and today's debate allows me the opportunity to revisit my commitment to tackling it in a deliberate and decisive way. <BR /> <BR />There has been much talk about North Belfast in particular, as one would expect during an Adjournment debate on child poverty in North Belfast.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I sincerely thank the Member for North Belfast, Miss McAllister, for securing today's Adjournment debate. I appreciate the contributions that have been made. I have listened to them all very carefully and hope to address all the points that have been raised. <BR /> <BR />Let me say at the outset that poverty is a curse. At its core, poverty is the needs of our people not being properly met. It is a curse on society, and poverty impacts on everyone, everywhere. Members may think that that is a strange statement for me to make, but poverty impacts on all of us, because we are all impacted on by our friends' and our neighbours' situations.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sure that everyone will agree that that was a fascinating debate. I know that we all look forward to watching our contributions when they lead the evening news later. <BR /> <BR />On a serious note, I sincerely thank the Committee for its work. The CDC schemes will be an important addition to the UK pensions landscape, and the rule provides clarification to more accurately reflect the policy intention. I am grateful to the Committee for its work and for the consensus across the Chamber.”
“The intention has always been that, if a beneficiary dies during the winding-up period, the pot allocated to them will not be extinguished but will be reallocated among their successors where a scheme's rules provide for that. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, the rule provides clarity for CDC schemes moving forward by more accurately reflecting the policy intention, and I commend it to the House.”
“The rule also ensures that information about any multi-annual reduction and subsequent offsetting must be reported to the Pensions Regulator in the actuarial valuation in order to ensure proper oversight. <BR /> <BR />The second amendment ensures that, where a scheme winds up, beneficiaries' accrued rights are transferred to suitable pension schemes or alternative pension arrangements. A key element of the winding-up process is the calculation of the share of the fund for each person who is a beneficiary at that time. The scheme rules may provide that that person be a member but could include a spouse, a child or a person financially dependent on a deceased beneficiary.”
“The intention is to provide that, where a cut to benefits must be made due to an economic downturn, the CDC scheme's trustees can smooth the impact of the benefits cuts on members over three years. That is called a multi-annual reduction. The mechanism helps to reduce volatility and ensure that the current and future benefits remain relatively stable. If that were not done, the benefits of the recovery would likely go to future pensioners, which would not be in line with the principle that, as far as possible, all members — current pensioners, those who are currently accruing benefits and those who are not contributing but have rights to a future pension from the scheme — should share in the upsides and downsides at the same time.”
“Each year, benefits are renewed and adjusted where required so that the value of scheme assets held is in balance with the projected cost of benefits. A balance needs to be maintained between the value of the available assets of the scheme and the amount needed to provide the target benefits to members on an ongoing basis.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This rule primarily makes two technical amendments to the principal regulations — the Occupational Pension Schemes (Collective Money Purchase Schemes) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024 — to clarify certain provisions and to ensure that the regulations meet the original policy intention. The principal regulations provide for an authorisation and supervision regime for collective money purchase schemes, which are commonly known as collective defined contribution (CDC) pension schemes. <BR /> <BR />I turn to the first amendment. The rule amends the principal regulations to clarify provision relating to the annual actuarial valuation and benefit adjustment processes for CDC schemes.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am pleased with the cross-community consensus that we have throughout the Chamber. I commend the motion to the House.”
“The regulations require schemes to have a funding and investment strategy within 15 months of the effective date of the first actuarial valuation obtained on or after 22 September 2024. <BR /> <BR />In summary, the regulations support schemes and employers to make long-term plans and enable the Pensions Regulator to take effective action when needed. That will help to ensure that scheme members get the retirement that they have contributed towards and rightly expect.”
“Depending on circumstances, the Pensions Regulator has the flexibility to ask for less detailed information from schemes to improve long-term planning and avoid unnecessary burdens. The regulations make it clear that schemes have significant flexibility to choose investments while meeting the low-dependency principle. That will help support trustees in reacting to changing circumstances, while investing in the best interests of their members. The regulations increase the scope for scheme-specific flexibility, allowing open schemes to take account of new entrants and future accrual when determining when the scheme will reach significant maturity, for example.”
“That is an assessment of the financial ability of the employer in relation to its legal requirements to support the scheme. The regulations require schemes to have a clear plan along their path to maturity and low dependency so as not to need further employer support by the time they are significantly mature. They are required to reach low employer dependency in reasonably foreseeable circumstances. The regulations make it clear that, where appropriate, recovery plans are to be put in place as soon as the employer can reasonably afford to do so. The regulations require the funding and investment strategy to be reviewed and, if necessary, revised alongside each scheme valuation, which is usually every three years.”
“That is to ensure that all defined benefit members have the best possible prospect of getting the benefits paid in full when they are due. The aim is to provide clear standards for both open and maturing schemes, ensuring flexibility and promoting better collaboration between sponsors and trustees. That includes an investment approach that reflects the schemes' circumstances. The regulations are principle-based and set out the detailed requirements for the funding and investment strategy. As part of the strategy, all defined benefit schemes are required to set out their plans for how pension benefits will be paid over the longer term. <BR /> <BR />The regulations introduce key principles for assessing the strength of the employer covenant.”
“The rule that we are considering today introduces measures to support trustees in sponsoring employees of defined benefit occupational pension schemes to plan and manage their schemes' funding over the longer term. Most defined benefit schemes are closed to either new members or new accruals. That means that they have an increasing number of members who are retired or close to retirement and either a decreasing number of members or no members who will make contributions to the scheme. That is referred to as "maturing" and will change the funding requirements of the scheme. The regulations build on the current funding regime for defined benefit schemes, embed good practice and provide clear funding standards.”
“The commissioners are not my Department's responsibility. I will need to consider the strategies and action plans, consider the next steps and engage with Executive colleagues. Only when we get to that position will I be able to bring forward a timetable.”
“That issue was not discussed during the meeting. The Member will be aware that, in Northern Ireland, we have many public-sector organisations that are facing into real-term budget reductions, with rising costs and standstill budgets. If there were to be a proposal from the Irish Government to increase their budget, that would then have implications for us. We need to ensure that the funding level is kept the same. It would have been difficult for us to increase that funding if the Irish Government had wanted to, because we need to be aware of the budgetary situation in which we find ourselves.”
“The Member will be aware that, when the Assembly and Executive were not in place, there were no meetings of the North/South Ministerial Council at sectoral, institutional or plenary level in order to allow those to go through their proper processes. If the Member has any particular concerns on those, I will be happy to hear them. I will take them up directly with whomever is responsible.”
“Ultimately, one of the best outcomes we can get from that is raising awareness among more people in the Untied States, especially those with an Ulster-Scots background, of what it is that we do here in Northern Ireland and, hopefully, getting them over to visit.”
“Issues of tourism are primarily under the purview of the Department for the Economy. However, I absolutely want to make sure that I play whatever role I can in that. We have an opportunity to promote Northern Ireland in the Untied States through the cultural connections that we have. The exhibition on the Declaration of Independence was very useful. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that I have made progress in our conversations with both the Smithsonian Institution in the United States and the National Archives about how there can be greater collaboration with National Museums NI and the Public Record Office. I would like to develop that.”
“Although I do not have the detail on that, as it is the responsibility of the body, I will be happy to ask it to provide an update to the Member.”
“I raised that at yesterday's plenary meeting as well as at the sectoral meeting. I believe that there is huge opportunity, as I said in the Chamber yesterday, to develop those links, particularly with the United States, which I mentioned. There are number of ways in which I can do that. Again, if the Member has any particular issues that, she thinks, the working group should look at, I would be happy to engage with her on that.”
“I will need to check my diary. Obviously, there is regular, ongoing engagement with those bodies at official level and at ministerial level. I will need to check and see what is coming up in my diary. <BR /> <BR />It is certainly right that we have close cooperation. There will be greater collaboration with the Ulster-Scots Agency as a result of the United States/Northern Ireland cultural working group, of which it is a part. We also meet the agencies of the language body in other forums, if not directly at meetings.”
“That was not discussed at the meeting. The language bodies are responsible for bringing forward what it is that they would like to see happen. If the Member has individual issues that she would like to see one of the agencies take forward, I would be more than happy to pass that on to the relevant agency and see what, if anything, needs to be discussed at further meetings.”
“The Member will be aware that that vacancy has existed for some time. As I said in my answer to Mr Gildernew, there are a number of Executive-nominated vacancies on the language body boards. It will be up to the Executive to decide those, and I will then be able to take them to the next meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council. Unfortunately, because it is dependent on Executive agreement, I do not have a time frame for when that appointment will be made.”
“There are a number of vacancies. The Executive will need to work through the appointments. They are considering appropriate nominees. Once I have those, I will seek NSMC agreement to make the appointments at the earliest opportunity.”
“No. That was not raised at the meeting, because it is a responsibility solely for the Department. I am considering next steps in the development of the relevant strategies.”
“<BR /> <BR />The final issue that was addressed was the date of the next NSMC language body meeting, with the Council agreeing to hold it in autumn 2024.”
“The presentations by Gael Linn and the Ulster-Scots Community Network illustrated the key achievements of the organisations as a result of working in partnership with agencies of the language body. The Council welcomed the successful engagement with schools in both jurisdictions to deliver programmes and schemes to improve Irish language skills and to create natural opportunities to speak Irish outside the formal classroom setting. The North/South Ministerial Council also welcomed raising awareness of Ulster-Scots identity among individuals and over 100 voluntary and community groups. That included the provision of policy support, assistance with adherence to safeguarding standards and the encouragement of wider involvement in Ulster-Scots activity by groups and individuals through the delivery of over 30 cultural events in 2023.”
“The NSMC also noted that the audit of the 2022 accounts is near completion. <BR /> <BR />The next item to be addressed was climate change and loss of biodiversity in the language sector. The NSMC noted that, as public service bodies, both agencies of the North/South Ministerial Council language body have statutory climate change and biodiversity obligations. Ministers welcomed the agencies' drafting of climate action road maps to meet the targets in both jurisdictions. We noted that both agencies will continue to engage with relevant Departments in order to identify opportunities to address climate change and loss of biodiversity from an operational perspective. <BR /> <BR />The NSMC then received presentations by groups that the language body funds.”
“The second item to be addressed was corporate governance. The Council addressed a number of governance issues, including the approval of the language body business plans and budgets for 2022, 2023 and 2024, which were completed in accordance with guidance issued by both Finance Departments and agreed by the sponsor Departments and Finance Ministers. Ministers also approved the language body corporate plans for 2023 to 2025, which, again, were completed in accordance with the guidance issued by both Finance Departments and agreed by the sponsor Departments and Finance Ministers. The Council noted the language body's consolidated annual report and accounts for 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021, which had been certified by the Comptrollers and Auditors General and laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Northern Ireland Assembly.”