Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
The complete record
Every one of 5,903 lines we hold for Gordon Lyons, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 66 of 119.
“First of all, I will say that it has been a disappointing last number of weeks with budget allocations. I accept that no Minister in any Department is happy with the budget that they have received. I am particularly disappointed with the budget that we have because, frankly, starting 400 social homes this year is not good enough and is not where we need to be. I want to make sure that that changes, and I will do everything that I can to make sure that we increase that number. I will work with Executive colleagues to highlight that and to make sure that we get back to where we need to be. <BR /> <BR />I was pleased to meet the housing associations last week. They expressed their frustration, but we had a good conversation about the way forward as well.”
“Those Departments have key strategic remits, and I need them to buy into the strategy. I plan to meet those Ministers — I have my first meeting organised with the Minister of Finance — to seek their support for the approach set out in the strategy and their commitment to deliver the necessary actions to make the transformational change that is required. Once that work is finished, I will bring a finalised strategy to the Executive for their consideration and approval as quickly as I can. I want this to be a priority for the Executive, and I want the funds in place to back that up.”
“As I said at a Communities Committee meeting in April and at the all-party group on homelessness in May, I am reviewing the housing supply strategy. I will take that forward as quickly as possible, and I am working on it now. I have also been working closely with my officials to update the strategy to ensure that it remains accurate and aligns with current policy. Doing that has emphasised that addressing the issues that are impacting housing supply is outside the gift of any one Department. We need to make sure that we have a collaborative approach across the Executive to deliver the houses that are so badly required. <BR /> <BR />This needs to be a whole-Executive strategy, so I have written to my ministerial colleagues in the Departments of Finance, Health, Infrastructure and Economy.”
“The Member is right to raise infrastructure issues, and I have no doubt that those will come up again during Question Time, because one of the biggest drags that we face is not being able to progress with the building that we want to see. All of that will be part of the draft housing supply strategy, and I have committed to working with Executive colleagues to make sure that we get commitment and buy-in from other Ministers, including the Minister for Infrastructure, to make sure that those issues are addressed. Waste water and planning are also issues. If those issues are not resolved satisfactorily, it will make our housebuilding targets even more difficult to achieve not just in rural areas but across Northern Ireland.”
“Through those tests, the Housing Executive will work with rural communities to promote its range of housing services and encourage those in need of a home to come forward and register on our waiting list. If the Member knows a particular area that, she believes, needs to be highlighted, I encourage her to contact the Housing Executive about that.”
“It comes as no surprise that the Member raises again, as she frequently does, the issue of the need for more housing in rural areas, particularly in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. She is right to highlight the issues around hidden demand, which are more prevalent in rural areas. To identify and address those issues, the Housing Executive carries out housing needs tests in selected rural areas every year. Each test is tailored to suit the designated area. That can involve community meetings, engagement with the local primary school and a public information event. The Housing Executive will also promote the test on social media and engage with community representatives and local politicians to ensure that the information reaches people who are in need of a home.”
“I am due to get the research paper to which the Member refers by the end of June; I have not received it yet. He is right to highlight that there have been significant difficulties in reaching the targets that have been set. Those targets have not been met for quite a few years: the information that I have is that, in the past five years, they have not been met at all. That is an issue of concern that we need to address.”
“That is important to me, because I also have responsibility for anti-poverty and fuel poverty issues, which go hand in hand. It is important that we make sure that all our homes are energy-efficient, whether they are in urban or rural areas. Not only does that help us to meet our climate change targets, but, more importantly, it helps people to stay warm and keep more of their money.”
“To assist housing associations in areas where it is difficult to secure sites, the Housing Executive also carries out site identification studies. That involves examining all underdeveloped lands within a settlement and seeks to identify potential sites for the future development of social housing. <BR /> <BR />Additionally, my Department has set up a steering group that includes representatives from my Department, the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, the Housing Executive and Land and Property Services. The overall aim of the steering group will be to explore the barriers to rural housing development and develop a plan to address them. Those barriers include land, grant, need, infrastructure and planning.”
“I am committed to ensuring the vitality and viability of our rural areas and to addressing rural housing need. One of my key priorities as Minister is the delivery of social housing. <BR /> <BR />The delivery of social housing in rural areas presents significant challenges and often requires different solutions from those that apply in urban areas. In an effort to address those issues, the Housing Executive, through its rural action plan, has shown its commitment to helping to address need and sustain local communities. In rural locations, the Housing Executive carries out housing needs tests to determine whether there is a hidden housing demand not evident from the waiting list, and it listens to requests from local elected representatives and community representatives.”
“I beg to introduce the Child Support Enforcement Bill [NIA 5/22-27], which is a Bill to make provision as to the enforcement of payments of particular amounts due by virtue of certain child support and maintenance legislation.”
“I commend the work of the Hospitality and Tourism Skills (HATS) network as well. Skills are one of the biggest issues that we face in the sector right now. <BR /> <BR />I hope that action can be taken on all these issues to ensure that the right conditions are in place for tourism and hospitality to thrive in East Antrim.”
“It is not often that there truly are silver bullets that help us tackle the issues that we face, but one of the things that we really can do to make a change is to get the Government to look at VAT on tourism and hospitality. Hospitality businesses that come to meet me say that VAT is the difference between their being able to survive and not surviving. Across East Antrim, we all have examples of businesses, some in the very recent past, having to close down because of it. We do not have a lot of tools in our armoury, but VAT is one. I reiterate the comments made by John Stewart on rates. Even though we get Barnett consequentials, some of the discounts available in the rest of the UK are not available here <BR /> <BR />Another huge issue is skills. Lots of good work has gone on in Tourism NI.”
“I do not think that there is an environmental benefit from that tax being in place, because people will fly. They might just fly into Dublin instead or into somewhere else altogether. I do not think that it is a fair tax, and it limits our ability to bring more people into Northern Ireland and their ability to stay for longer. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the other issue, as raised by the Member who secured the debate and others, relates to hospitality. Many of our hospitality businesses have had a torrid time over the past number of years. COVID was exceptionally difficult, and they now face many other challenges as well.”
“We do not say that just because we represent it; we see it, and we hear it from others as well. I hope that the Minister will work with the councils in that area. <BR /> <BR />We have a number of challenges in the tourism sector. Budgets are tight, promotion can be limited, and the issues with infrastructure and accommodation have been raised. However, there is one thing that we should be pressing for, and I am sure that the Minister will agree with me on this: one way of getting more tourists to Northern Ireland relates to air passenger duty. I recognise that it is outside the Minister's control, but we should be jointly lobbying the UK Government on that issue. Clear economic data shows the benefit that the removal of air passenger duty can have. We saw it in the Netherlands and in the Republic.”
“We have so many fantastic walks and waterfalls around Larne. We have the Antrim coast road as well, which others mentioned. Of course, we should now plug Slemish as well, because it will be in our constituency very soon. I think that you will agree, Mr Deputy Speaker, that we have a lot to offer. I hope that others will see that and that we promote it. <BR /> <BR />When I was in the Minister's position, I engaged with Tourism Ireland and Tourism NI stakeholders, and, on international trips, I always made sure to mention East Antrim. I hope that the Minister will continue in that vein and ensure that East Antrim is mentioned on all his engagements, because we have so much to offer. I hope that he will engage with those organisations and make sure that a plan is in place to promote what is a fantastic part of the world.”
“Thankfully, that has now changed. We have Titanic Belfast and other attractions that hold people in Northern Ireland for longer. Tour operators are offering longer stays. I do not want East Antrim to be bypassed in the way that the rest of Northern Ireland was in the past, but that is what is happening. I hope that people, rather than leaving Belfast and going up to the north coast, will leave Belfast and come through East Antrim. Do we not have so much to offer? As has been mentioned a number of times, we have Carrickfergus Castle, the Andrew Jackson cottage and the US Rangers centre. You can go into wonderful Whitehead and visit the fantastic railway museum there or walk the Blackhead path. We have the Gobbins, which is an outstanding attraction. Anyone who has not been there should try that out.”
“It was fantastic to be there engaging with so many tourists and showing them a little of what we had to offer in Northern Ireland. One disheartening element of the job was that so many tourists said to me that they were only on a day trip to Northern Ireland from the South. They came up to see the greatest hits, the best attractions, and then went back down the road. They did not stay overnight or spend much money, and they did not see all that we had to offer.”
“I, too, thank and congratulate Ms Brownlee for bringing the Adjournment debate. I will also mention the Royal Landing at the weekend, which was a fantastic event. The Member is very humble: she did not mention her involvement in that event, but it would not have happened without her. I am grateful to her and her team, who put in so much work to make it such an extraordinary event. <BR /> <BR />In years gone by, I worked in the tourism industry at some of our fantastic attractions on the north coast. I worked at the Giant's Causeway and Carrick-a-Rede rope bridge, where I told people about the history of the bridge and, on a number of occasions, rescued people who had got stuck midway across it. The fear had got hold of them, and they needed gentle — sometimes not so gentle — coaxing to bring them back safely to the other side.”
“I am confident that what we have in the building regulations right now covers all the issues that the Member has described. The materials used should be of a suitable nature and quality for the purposes for which and the conditions in which they are used. That should cover it.”
“The Member has been generous about interventions, and I appreciate that. I am trying to bring clarity to the debate. Certainly, the Department stands ready to help with explanation of any of the current legislation. The legislation that we have provides opportunities for homeowners to seek redress from any party, including material providers, that has contributed to the construction of or carrying out of major work on a dwelling that is subsequently deemed to be uninhabitable due to poor workmanship or poor building materials. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that my officials will have no issue in engaging with the council or, indeed, with anybody else on those issues to explain the legislation and the opportunities for redress that exist.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. On that point, to my knowledge seven cases have been identified by Derry City and Strabane District Council: six social homes that have received redress and one private home that, I think, was not eligible for redress because of when it was built. Those are the only cases that have come forward, but I go back to the main point: what would your amendment achieve? You asked how many cases have come forward to me: it is a very small number, and redress has been given to the houses affected. That was done through what is in the building regs, so I ask again: what do you add through your amendment?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He will understand that there are certain things that are within my control and certain things that are not. I recognise the problems that many people in Donegal in particular have faced. Will the Member explain — I come at this sincerely and genuinely — what his amendment would do that is not already covered in the building regulations that I set out? That is the key point, and I would love to know his perspective on that. What does his amendment do that is not already done in the building regs?”
“The Member is doing exactly what Daniel McCrossan did earlier; he is deflecting because there is no substance to the arguments. I ask the Member a question that is simple for anybody who has taken the time to understand what is in front of us today: what is the Member proposing in his amendment that is not already covered by the building regulations that I read out earlier?”
“Furthermore, we are two years behind England and Wales so we should foresee any potential unintended consequences and have some time to examine those issues. By Mr McCrossan's own admission, he has not even engaged with other members of the Committee. I recognise that we are using an accelerated process today, but we have engaged. <BR /> <BR />The legal advice that I have received is clear: the amendment does absolutely nothing. It has no legal effect. All it does is place an administrative burden on the Department. The purpose of any Bill must be to change the law. The proposed amendment does not make any legal change to the Bill that would benefit either party to a claim. For that reason, together with those that I outlined earlier, I cannot give it my support, and no other party should, either.”
“I have answered queries from Members, and my officials have engaged with a number of stakeholders, including the Office for Product Safety and Standards; UK Finance; the Royal Society of Ulster Architects; the Communities Committee; the Attorney General for Northern Ireland; the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and Departments in other jurisdictions; the Building Safety Regulator; residents and residents' groups; practitioners and industry professionals; the Office of the Legislative Counsel; the Departmental Solicitor's Office; and Ulster Garden Villages. <BR /> <BR />In addition, I came to the House with a ministerial statement that outlined what I intended to do.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr McCrossan talked about the need for proper scrutiny. He rightly highlighted the concerns that some Members have in relation to the use of the accelerated passage procedure. However, I can say to the Member that this has gone through the full legislative process in England and Wales. I have engaged with Committee members. My officials have made themselves available to the Committee.”
“Instead, it creates a greater administrative burden on the Department by requiring any regulations that would be produced through the proposed article 4B(5) to be debated in the Assembly before they can be made and by creating a requirement in article 4B(6) for the Department to produce a report to the Assembly before any regulations are made under this amendment. <BR /> <BR />So what does the amendment do? It places an administrative and resource burden on the Department. It does not help claimants because it has no legal effect, but it does mandate a list being put together, albeit if a material is not on the list, it does not affect the claimant's chances of success. So the claimant can succeed if the product is listed; equally, the claimant can succeed if the product is not listed. So the question is: what is the point of the list?”
“What we have already in law is what anybody could possibly need in order to make sure that this situation does not come about. <BR /> <BR />My second concern with the proposed amendment is that it has no legal effect in real terms. This has been backed up by the legal advice that I have received. While it may imply that the inclusion of a product or material on a prescribed list may benefit a claimant's case, it then goes on to state that exclusion from the list does not affect the claimant's chance of success, nor does the prescribed list prevent a court from considering any other matters when considering a claim.”
“<BR /> <BR />Where a material, product or structural design is known to lead to defective premises, there is already a legislative solution in place to restrict or even deny their use, namely, part B, 'Materials and workmanship' of the building regulations. I have them here, in front of me, for the benefit of the House. It says:”
“Primarily, my concern with the idea of such a prescribed list is that it is difficult to determine in advance just what products, materials or design features should be included on such a list. The materials or products may not in themselves be likely to contribute to the dwelling becoming uninhabitable, but rather their inclusion with certain other materials, or the particular way that they are used, may lead to certain future defects. It would be difficult, if not impossible, for officials to predict, even in the abstract, that the use of certain products would result in actions under articles 3 or 4A of the 1975 Order.”
“Article 4B(2) would require the Department to have regard to the building regulations when making such regulations, while articles 4B(3) and 4B(4) would allow for actions to be taken for any reason not listed in the regulations, and that the regulations themselves should not prejudice any other considerations that the courts may wish to apply. It goes on to impose further duties on the Department to produce a report to the Assembly on the content of any such regulations, while requiring these to be debated by the Assembly before being made. <BR /> <BR />I recognise the intent of the amendment and the sincerity of those who have brought it, but I cannot support it, for a number of reasons.”
“Before I address the amendment that Mr McCrossan and Mr Durkan tabled, I put on record my thanks to the Assembly, the Committee for Communities and the Executive for supporting the progress of the Bill through the House. I also offer my thanks to the Office of the Legislative Counsel for its rapid yet thorough advice on each stage of the Bill's progress so far. <BR /> <BR />I turn now to the amendment. It proposes introducing a new article 4B to the Defective Premises (Northern Ireland) Order 1975. Article 4B(1) would grant the Department a permissive power to produce regulations that identify particular materials, products, structural design features or any other construction detail that the Department thinks might give rise to actions under article 3 or 4A of the 1975 Order.”
“I am happy to clarify to the Member and the Deputy Chair that that is not necessary, because the existing regulations cover those and they do not need to be specifically identified in order for that action to be taken. Where a material, product or structural design is known to lead to defective premises, there are already legislative solutions in place to restrict or even deny its use, namely, part B of the materials and workmanship section of the building regulations.”
“Will the Member give way, for scrutiny of his amendment?”
“That is entirely covered. You are bringing nothing new to the table; the amendment has no legal effect.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way, but, with respect, he has not answered the question of what legal effect the amendment would have. He is not creating an exclusive list of materials and saying, "It must be under this". He is saying, "Here is a list. I want you to go out and think of all the materials that can come into it". His amendment says that a material not being on the list does not preclude action being taken. He acknowledges in his amendment that the regulations exist. His proposed new paragraph 4B(2) states:”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. I hope that he understands my sincerity in asking this question: what does he believe that the legal effect of the amendment would be? The building materials that he is talking about are already covered under building regulations. He wants the Department to specify a list of materials, but he is not making that list exclusive, and there is already a legislative remedy. The point of a Bill is to change the law, and the amendment does not appear to me to achieve any substantial legal effect, so what is the point of it?”
“I will respond to Sian Mulholland's comments first. Although it is not directly affected by the regulations in front us, I am more than happy for officials to look into that issue, and I will come back to her with a response. I certainly agree with the tone and tenor of what she is saying, and I thank her for bringing it to my attention. <BR /> <BR />I am grateful for the support that we have for the regulations, which are minor but necessary. Again, I am grateful for the Chamber's support. Thank you.”
“<BR /> <BR />Although the regulations are merely technical in nature, they are, more importantly, closely associated with the domestic abuse protections that are provided in the Child Support Collection (Domestic Abuse) Act 2023. The shared aim of my Department and the CMS is always to strive to provide a better service for protecting victims of domestic abuse. The regulations form part of a wider legislative package that flows from the 2023 Act that will see a focus on that important policy area. I commend the regulations to the House.”
“The Act does that by allowing for the collection of child maintenance payments by my Department on behalf of the person with care where my Department is satisfied that there is evidence of behaviour of a parent that amounts to domestic abuse against the other parent or children in the household. In revoking regulation 3(6) and regulation 3(7), my Department is removing the risk of any confusion arising in the wider public and legal community. Primary legislation naturally takes precedence over subordinate legislation, and, as the statute book does not require both provisions to operate concurrently, it is therefore prudent to revoke the subordinate provisions.”
“The regulations, which came into operation on 18 January 2024, amend the Child Support Fees Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2014 by revoking regulation 3(6) and 3(7). Those provisions relate to arrangements for the collection of child maintenance. The regulations are required to satisfy the legal doctrine of revoking obsolete provisions from the statute book as promptly as possible. Regulation 3(6) and regulation 3(7)of the Child Support Fees Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2014 were rendered obsolete following the enactment of the Child Support Collection (Domestic Abuse) Act 2023 on 29 June 2023. The primary purpose of the UK-wide Act was to provide additional legislative protection for victims of domestic abuse who use the Child Maintenance Service (CMS).”
“However, in making sure that we have adequate support and address some of the anti-poverty issues that we want to deal with, that work will be wide-ranging. I look forward to having the Member's support so that we can tackle the root causes of poverty. <BR /> <BR />In many ways, we wish that the Child Maintenance Service did not have to exist. It exists because of failures that take place elsewhere: that is the world that we live in. I hope that the changes that we make today can at least make it more effective. Therefore, I commend the motion to the House.”
“I will respond to the comments of Mr McCrossan first. He is a debate late on the issues that he is trying to raise. The regulations that we are debating relate to the Child Maintenance Service and the changes that we are trying to make there. We understand that the work of the Child Maintenance Service is vital and these regulations, albeit minor, will make a difference and help to deliver a more cost-effective system and contribute to the goal of the overall improvement of the Child Maintenance Service. <BR /> <BR />If the Member would like to have a wider debate on the welfare system in Northern Ireland, I am sure that the Business Office and the party Whips will consider it. There are things that are in our control and others that are outside it. That is why we are doing what we can to mitigate some of the changes that took place.”
“<BR /> <BR />The changes build on several improvements that we have already made and are among the first in a further wave of measures that we plan to bring forward to ensure that the service is more accessible, simpler, speedier and, ultimately, gets more money to more children more quickly.”
“The regulations will ensure that the Child Maintenance Service caseworkers' time and effort are used efficiently. Secondly, given that the CMS will close only cases in which the service has stopped calculating child maintenance payments, it is likely that payments will no longer be needed. That could be because the child has become an adult; the parents have reconciled; or the paying parent has, sadly, passed away. Therefore, it makes sense to close those cases, not least for the certainty and clarity that it provides for families. The full details of the criteria that permit the writing off of arrears are set out in the regulations, but they include where maintenance calculations have ceased and where no payments have been made in the previous three months.”
“The regulations permit the Department to write off arrears where the arrears have accrued under an application for child maintenance; the arrears relate to a case where the maintenance calculation has ceased in specific circumstances; the arrears are less than £7; and the paying parent has failed to make any payments in the past three months. <BR /> <BR />We introduce the measures for two pragmatic reasons. First, the reality is that keeping open that small number of cases with low levels of arrears requires considerable human and financial resources, and taking the required actions to recover such small amounts of arrears often costs more than the actual value of the arrears. If the cases were to be left open, the cost of maintaining the cases could increase for years, with no greater chance of money being paid to receiving parents.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the regulations, we take the pragmatic approach of bringing forward powers to write off minimal amounts of less than £7 on a small number of inactive cases. The reason for the figure of £7 is that the minimum child maintenance payment is £7 a week. Those cases would otherwise have been closed were it not for the small outstanding balances. As of February 2024, there were approximately 193 relevant cases held by CMS operations. It is estimated that the maximum total amount of arrears across those cases is £1,306.”
“The regulations, which came into operation on 26 February this year, enable my Department to make amendments to child maintenance legislation and overall improvements to the Child Maintenance Service (CMS). The regulations allow for the write-off of arrears of less than £7. That is intended to help reduce the overall arrears balance and extinguish liability for the arrears of child support maintenance where it appears to my Department that it would be unfair or otherwise inappropriate to enforce liability for the arrears. That will ensure that efforts and resources can be focused on taking action to collect unpaid arrears in the cases that will make the biggest difference to children.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend the regulations to the House.”