Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“As I have outlined to the House, there is a mechanism in place that may have been able to help in the case mentioned by Mr Durkan. That may not have been well known in that instance — I do not know whether they went down that route — but there are a number of options available. Sometimes, those are on a discretionary or case-by-case basis. I am more than happy to ask the relevant authorities what action can be taken so that everyone is aware of those mechanisms.”
“Generally, tenancy agreements cannot be signed by an individual who is deemed to lack capacity. However, there is potential for consideration to be given, through the Office of Care and Protection, to someone being authorised to sign a tenancy agreement on behalf of the individual who lacks capacity. That needs to be determined on a case-by-case basis. If the Member would like to write to me directly on that, I would be happy to chase it up.”
“Tenancy agreements are legal contracts. Supported housing is provided for people with housing support needs who cannot live independently. That may include people whose support needs are such that they do not have the capacity to enter into a legal contract.”
“Unfortunately, we do not know the costs. That is another of the problems that we have with the way in which the Government have announced the changes. When they were originally announced, we were told that they would save £5 billion across the UK, which, on a pro rata basis, would have been over £150 million for Northern Ireland. That has now changed, and the newest estimate to come back was £3·4 billion. The fact that the Government were so far out on how much this has cost is, I believe, an indication that they do not really know what impact it will have. That means that we do not know the impact that it will have on Northern Ireland, which makes me think that this has not been well thought through.”
“Yes. I made my views on this known to the Secretary of State and to UK Government Ministers on a UK-wide call. The call was not specifically about this issue, but I used the opportunity to get my view across. I also feel that this will have increased anxiety, and, perhaps, in many cases, unnecessary anxiety, because the Government have not been clear about exactly whom this will impact on and in what way it will impact on them. The fact that the Government were not able to give us a consistent total cost of the changes shows that they do not even know how they will affect people.”
“I understand that such concerns have been expressed. We are still trying to figure out all of the outworkings of what that will mean, but I hope that we will be able to provide all the support that we can to people in Northern Ireland who may find themselves affected. What we can do, we certainly will do on that.”
“Those are certainly points that I have raised with the UK Government. In addition, I have made clear the need for us to continue the work on the disability strategy and the disability-in-work plan. Many disabled people want to be in work, and that is what I mean when I say that we should break down barriers. It is about providing support to people to enable them to be in work, rather than pulling the rug out from underneath them, which is, I believe, what the UK Government are doing. Doing so will lead to increased costs for those who find themselves in the disabled category in particular.”
“As an Executive, we have certainly have made our views clear to the UK Government. I have met the Secretary of State on the issue, and we will continue to make our views known, because there is a better way to reduce the welfare bill: by helping people rather than hurting them by taking money off them in the way that has been announced. I think that there is common cause across the Executive on this, and we will continue to make the points.”
“As I have said before, our research indicates that a rent cap would actually make things worse for people in Northern Ireland. I am not willing to place that burden on them.”
“Almost anything is better than the steps that the Government have outlined. I believe that there is a way for us to reduce the welfare bill. We should all want to see that and try to, where possible, help people to get back into work. There are ways in which we can do that. Look at the impact of some of the successful job programmes that we have had here, with less money going out from the Treasury through benefits to help people and additional money coming in through National Insurance contributions and income tax to help the Treasury. It costs money to help people, but it is well worth it. That is one thing that we should do. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, we should be trying to tackle fraud and departmental error to make sure that the right money goes to the right people at the right time.”
“As I said, it will not be possible for us to mitigate them. However, we will take time to consider the impacts and see what, if any, actions we can take to make sure that we help those who are most in need.”
“I will continue to engage with the UK Government to ensure that that happens. I will also continue to engage with Executive colleagues, as Northern Ireland does not have the resources to mitigate the changes.”
“Mr Speaker, with your permission, I will group questions 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15 for answer. <BR /> <BR />I understand people's shock and concern about all the changes and the uncertainty that they have caused. I do not know what the full impact for Northern Ireland will be at this time. My officials continue to work closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to understand the full implications for Northern Ireland. Calculations on the UK-wide impact of the Green Paper were published along with the Chancellor's spring statement on 26 March. It will take time to understand the Northern Ireland impacts thereafter. <BR /> <BR />I want to ensure that Northern Ireland has a welfare system that is fair for claimants and taxpayers and which protects the most vulnerable.”
“That was included in the manifesto on a UK-wide basis, and that is important. Going back to the point that I am making, I have supported the work of the strategic asset management unit because it is there for that exact purpose: making sure that we use land effectively. Why would a public land agency be any different from what is being created tomorrow? Surely they would both have the same objective.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Is he able to give even just one example of what a public land agency would be able to achieve that the strategic asset management unit that goes live tomorrow will not be able to?”
“However, it is an important point: a lot of money is being used in the maintenance of such buildings. Clearly, there are statutory duties on us, but there is an important point, which is that we need to make best use of public land. That is certainly something that I want to make sure that we can do. I am doing that work, and I will continue to do that work so that we can deliver the homes that we so desperately need.”
“I thank the mover of the motion, in particular. He highlighted the issue of the bunker in Ballymena: perhaps he can bring proposals to the Executive Office on how that could be used. In response to his query, I do not think that we are actively preparing for a nuclear event. If we are, I have not been informed about it; I do not know whether I will have a seat in the bunker. If I do, he is more than welcome to have it. If I had to make a choice between being in the bunker with my Executive colleagues and taking my chances in the event of a nuclear apocalypse, I know which one I would choose”
“Ultimately, it will be for His Majesty's Treasury to confirm what, we all believe, should happen, which is that there should be a change in how the Housing Executive is treated with regard to its borrowing. We have made the case, provided information and made arguments at a political level. I believe that we are moving forward on this. The information that has been requested from us and the answers that we have been able to provide indicate to me that we are moving forward, but I want to make it clear to the UK Government that, if they want to do something that is genuinely transformational and can help make a difference, a very simple confirmation of change in the borrowing rules would achieve that. I look forward to them doing that very soon. <BR /> <BR />I thank everyone for their comments and their contributions to the debate.”
“I have pressed and pressed on that at every level, because I genuinely believe that it is one of the most transformational things that we will be able to do during the mandate and that it could make a real difference and set us up well for the future. Those are —”
“I have bid for and received allocations to increase the number of social homes. We had intended, at the beginning of this year, to build 400 social homes: that has gone up to 1,400 completions. Therefore, progress is being made. We are moving forward, albeit not as quickly as I would like, but I genuinely believe that, through the housing supply strategy, we have a plan in place for the first time. That is to be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />Members have mentioned the revitalisation of the Housing Executive. I am glad that there is cross-party and cross-community support in the House for that; it could be a game changer.”
“I believe that we have made incredible progress over the past year. We have a plan in place. We have the housing supply strategy that has been agreed by all Executive colleagues. That has never happened before. We have a Programme for Government commitment in place that puts an additional focus on that, and, as has been mentioned around the Chamber today, we are doing innovative things on affordable rent, including the 600 homes that were announced last week, whereby we can tackle some of the huge costs around temporary accommodation, including non-standard accommodation in hotels and bed and breakfasts. The loan-to-acquire move-on accommodation fund is another use of financial transactions capital in a way that we can make a difference and help people to get out of the homelessness system.”
“That is a surprise, and it is also disappointing, given that the strategic direction has been set by the housing supply strategy. Commitments have been made, and there is also a Programme for Government commitment to deal with the housing issue. I was not aware that those comments had been made, but l look forward to raising them with the Minister in my discussion with her. That is useful information. <BR /> <BR />I want to respond to a couple of comments made by Carál Ní Chuilín. There had been the idea of getting our best and brightest together at a housing summit to address some of the issues. We had a successful round table towards the end of last year, and we are taking forward actions from that. I do not agree with the analysis that, in some way, we are just bumbling along on the issue.”
“I have asked for a meeting with the current Infrastructure Minister, following on from commitments that have been made in the housing supply strategy, to make sure that we get this right and that we can talk about it and make progress.”
“<BR /> <BR />My point is simple: I do not want to support a motion that, although it will not bind anybody, will put down a marker that says what the view of the Assembly is when I do not believe that it is or should be the view of the Assembly that we duplicate what is already in place and put in an additional layer of administration. I can confirm to the Member that I am content with the intent of his motion but, because of the additional issue of the public land agency, am not content to support it. <BR /> <BR />I want to address some of the comments that have been made. Mention has been made again and again of the need for the waste water infrastructure to be in place: I absolutely support that, and I raised it with the previous Infrastructure Minister.”
“Essentially, my concern is that, in an era of limited budgets, when we are not able to allocate as much funding to social housing as we might like, we need to do something new and innovative and look at different ways to solve the issue. The whole point of the debate has been for the Member to highlight the issue that I am already working on, which is the need to look at how we can cut costs elsewhere. If the Executive are not able to provide financial resource to me, what can the Executive do on the land resource that might be made available? Therefore, I will bring a paper to the Executive on new proposals. The Member will understand that I will bring that to the Executive before telling him, much as I would like to do that. It is important that we look at all of the ways in which we can tackle the issue.”
“It would be a complex undertaking, and there are ways to release public land much more quickly and with far less costly administration. Furthermore, it would be a complex, cross-departmental undertaking, and thus any decision to establish a public land agency would not be mine to take.”
“I have also worked closely with Belfast City Council to bring forward housing development on DFC- and council-owned sites in the city. <BR /> <BR />I have said many times before that budgets are tight. I have also said that we must act differently. Therefore, I am pleased to announce today that it is my intention to bring a paper to the Executive to set out new options for the disposal of public land. I want to maximise delivery with the budget that we have. Using land in a way that supports increasing housing supply is a big part of that. <BR /> <BR />As I said, although I am supportive of the broad intent set out in the motion — I have set out how I and other Departments have already taken steps to do what the motion asks — we cannot support the idea of establishing the public land agency.”
“For those reasons, I am supportive of the broader motion and its intent, but I cannot support the idea that we should create another agency when we already have bodies in place that can do the work that needs to be done. The new division will provide support to Departments and their arm's-length bodies to enable them to use land and property more effectively, including for housing. That work will be a key action in my housing supply strategy. <BR /> <BR />I have also recently launched a five-year pilot with the Housing Executive and council planning officials. The aim of the pilot, which is called "Housing Executive land acquisition" (HELA), is to identify sufficient land to deliver 100 social housing units in areas of acute housing need.”
“That project led directly to the development of the government land and property register by LPS in the Department of Finance, which can be viewed by the public. Taking that work a step further, I am pleased to support the work of Land and Property Services in establishing a new division called the "strategic asset management unit". That goes live on 1 April 2025. <BR /> <BR />I support the intent of the motion, but we now have something in place that will help us to achieve some of the things that were mentioned during the debate. I believe that the creation of a public land agency, which, as Mr Gaston pointed out, would be more appropriate for the Department of Finance than the Department for Communities, would take more time and energy and would duplicate what we already have.”
“Plenty of such land is owned by Departments and other public bodies, but much of it is not being put to any economic use or is being underutilised. I want to change that and to use that land to support the provision of social and affordable housing. <BR /> <BR />In the past, the release of land was challenging for landowning Departments and agencies, many of which had poor information about their land assets. We knew in general terms that there were land assets, but the accurate information needed to properly address the issue was not available. For that reason, some years ago, my Department initiated the public land for housing project to identify unused and underused land that could be used for housing.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the mover of the motion and all those who have contributed to the debate, and I welcome the opportunity to respond to it. <BR /> <BR />Through the housing supply strategy and the inclusion of housing as a priority in the Programme for Government, I have provided a renewed focus on housing during the mandate. That must be matched by a commitment right across the Executive to do things differently. <BR /> <BR />As the House will be aware, the strategy takes a 15-year, whole-system approach to addressing the many interconnected issues that impact on housing supply. One such issue is, of course, the need to identify and release suitable land that could be used for building homes.”
“— but it would be good for Sinn Féin to be clear and tell us what it actually believes on that.”
“Since he avoided the question that was asked by Mr Kingston, will the Member tell us whether he agrees that the views of a minority should be able to override the views of a majority in local areas? We talk about respect for each other —”
“They did not make any progress on the strategies. That might be something that he also wants to take into consideration.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. I have said from the outset that I fully respect the rights of others to engage in different languages, be that Irish or Ulster Scots, and I will continue to do that and to make progress. I remind the Member that I have been in the office for a year. He is throwing considerable criticism my way for not delivering the strategy. I note that there has been no criticism from him of the Sinn Féin Members who held the ministerial portfolio from 2020 to 2022, which is longer than I have been in post.”
“There will not be further delay. Departments will be asked to reaffirm the members whom they put forward and, importantly, as we want to make progress, confirm that they have the authority on behalf of their Departments to make the necessary decisions.”
“However, it is vital that we balance those benefits with the costs and impositions that that might involve. It is on that basis that I will manage the process that now moves into the cross-departmental working group stage.”
“I recognise that the work of the cross-departmental working groups is to review, assess and critically evaluate the inputs from the co-design groups. That is taking time. I know that that is frustrating the members of the co-design groups and others, but it is a vital stage of ensuring that we have strategies that address the issues, are deliverable and will not create division. <BR /> <BR />Having explained the process of developing the strategies and the current stage in that process, I return to the important role that language plays in the life of Northern Ireland and of each of us. I have stated on numerous occasions in the Chamber and to the Committee that I fully respect the rights of people with regard to their cultural and linguistic heritage.”
“In all those strategies, they have had incredible input, because the way in which they were set up by my predecessor gave them the access and information that they needed to co-design them with us. We are going through a process now with the various strategies with the cross-departmental groups, and the Member is aware of those. He may disagree with that, but he is well aware of the process that I put in place. He may disagree with that, but he is being disingenuous in the way that he is presenting it, and I will be calling that out. <BR /> <BR />I hope that that makes clear the processes that I have been following. I say again: they are the same for the language strategies as for the social inclusion strategies.”
“My understanding is that it has been in contact to discuss work on the strategy. If it wants to raise separate issues, I am happy to discuss them. However, I have put in place a process. The Member is well aware of it, because it is exactly the same as the process that I have put in place for the other key strategies, including the anti-poverty strategy, which he continues to call to be published even though I have already committed to ensuring that it goes to the Executive by the end of the month.”
“Give me a second. I have committed to a line of work, and I will do that. I am happy to give way to the Member so that he can clarify his comments.”
“I have explained it to him. He has been briefed on that, but he continues to peddle the line that I do not acknowledge the contribution that has been made by those groups. That is not true. I am following a process. I know what he is up to and what he is trying to do, but I have committed to a certain action —.”
“Nonetheless, I have committed, and I have reaffirmed today, that the co-design groups will have a chance to review and comment on the draft documents before they move to public consultation and that I will, at that stage, meet the co-design groups. My reasoning for not meeting at an earlier stage has been that I would not have had proposals to discuss with the co-design group members. <BR /> <BR />At this stage, it is appropriate for me to address some of the disingenuous comments that have been made by the Chairperson of the Communities Committee, which have been reinforced by the Deputy Chair. He has claimed that I refused to meet Conradh na Gaeilge. That is not the case. Conradh na Gaeilge has had extensive input to the decision-making process. I have committed to meeting it when the next stage of work is done. The Chair knows that.”
“As Members will appreciate, there will be further necessary stages following that consultation: consideration of the comments; potential amendment to the documents in the light of those comments; and then approval by the Executive of final drafts for publication. <BR /> <BR />I should also touch on the concept of co-design. It is absolutely right that the Government take full account of the views and expertise of people across our society. It is, however, for the Government to govern. Therefore, I am grateful for all the work that has been done and time that has been committed by every member of the two co-design groups. That has allowed us a basis from which to move to the next stage of the work that is for us.”
“The group has met roughly every six weeks over the past year and has spent some time considering its approach. I intend to bring a paper to the Executive imminently, asking my colleagues to confirm or amend their Department's member of the group and give that member authority to engage across their Department to consider and agree appropriate actions, including developing costs. After that phase of work, which, given the range of potential action areas and other work that is going on across Departments, will take a few months, I will be in a position to consider draft strategies and action plans for bringing to the Executive for approval for public consultation.”
“The outputs from that phase of the work of the co-design groups were then passed to my Department for consideration. A key element of that consideration needs to be the achievability of proposed actions and how they fit with broader departmental and Executive priorities and with work that is already under way. It may be, for instance, that work is already under way in a Department that will deliver the intent of an action but via a different route. <BR /> <BR />The next stage of the work is central to the role of the cross-departmental working group (CDWG) of senior officials. That group first met in February 2022 and has, to date, largely been operating in shadow mode, tracking the work of the co-design groups. With the delivery of the co-design groups' draft documents, the CDWG is able to move out of shadow mode.”
“The groups are chaired by a sectoral stakeholder and a senior official from my Department. I am grateful for all the work that has been undertaken and all the knowledge and expertise that has been shared through the work of the co-design groups. I am grateful to each member of the two co-design groups. In 2022 and 2023, they focused strongly on action plans to implement the strategies. The plans were ambitious when it came not only to cost but to the number of people and the resources that would be required, the skills development that would be needed and, in some cases, the technology that was necessary. <BR /> <BR />In 2024, the group's focus was more on the draft narrative strategies. In October 2024, the co-design groups completed their drafting work on the two narrative strategies.”
“There has been much talk about rights, such as the right to speak in and celebrate a certain language, but that needs to continue to be set against the right of all to choose not to use or connect with a particular language. It is in that context that the Executive's Ulster-Scots language, heritage and culture strategy and action plan and the Irish language strategy and action plan are being developed. <BR /> <BR />As we heard, the development of the strategies has moved through a number of phases. In 2022, expert advisory panels provided recommendations on what the strategies should seek to address. Co-design groups of stakeholders were brought together in October 2021 to provide input on the development and content of the strategies and action plans.”
“It is clear that many components of our heritage, culture and creativity can improve personal and community well-being and community cohesion, reduce recidivism and improve skills. It is therefore important that we seek to find funding for those activities, and I very much include language in that space, as it is a key component of our wider heritage and culture. We must remember, however, that finances are limited. Not everything that we aspire to do is possible, and not everything that would make a positive difference can be funded. <BR /> <BR />Language can enrich our communities, our learning, our media and publications, our cultural lives and our economy, but it can also be used as a tool to divide.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. Language is a central element to any place and its people, as the ways that things are spoken about can in turn influence how things are thought about. It is important that we respect each other, and that means respecting each other's culture, heritage and languages. The work, however, is not straightforward. We have heard in the debate that the journey towards the strategies has been a long one, and, as Minister, I can only speak about the most recent year of that journey whilst being conscious of the years preceding it. <BR /> <BR />There are clearly challenges in relation to costs and funding. There are many calls on our public finances and there are decisions to be made, many of which centre on how we prioritise spend.”