Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“The Member will understand that I cannot comment further on that particular issue. However, there has been considerable improvement over the past year, in particular. I am very supportive of and pleased with the work that the board, under its new chair and the interim chief executive officer, is doing. We are in a much better governance position in Sport NI than we have been in the past, and I hope that it can focus now on sporting issues rather than some of the governance issues that have been such a cause for concern over the past number of years.”
“Employment issues for individual Sport NI staff are a matter for Sport NI. At present, the interim chief executive officer remains in place. I am not aware, at this time, of any planned recruitment of a new chief executive officer.”
“The Member will be aware that the promotion and development of the Irish language takes place through my Department in the funding that is given to the North/South language bodies. Last week, we had a North/South Language Body meeting and were updated on its work and the new, innovative programmes that it is rolling out. That is where that work on the Irish language takes place.”
“I assure the Member that we will certainly not allow ourselves to get into the position that Belfast City Council has allowed itself to get into over the issue. It is right that, when we bring forward proposals on language, those are costed, proportionate, reasonable and accepted by the wider community. Unfortunately, with Belfast City Council, we have seen what happens when some parties ride roughshod over others and have no care or consideration for the public purse. That will not happen in the development of these strategies.”
“Yes, I do have plans to meet them, but I am not sure whether those dates have been set yet. If the Member has a genuine interest in that, I am happy to let him know when those meetings happen.”
“Mr Sheehan says that I am not interested in the matter, but it appears that it is his Ministers who are not interested.”
“He can shout —. He likes to do this: when he does not have any arguments left, he likes to shout from those Back Benches.”
“So, perhaps he might want to spend his time asking some of his party colleagues where their interest lies in the matter.”
“— and I have had no responses from the Department of Finance.”
“I have had no responses from the Department for the Economy —”
“He says that my interest is "zilch and zero" on the issue. Let me tell the Member that I have not had responses on the issue yet from some Departments. I have had no responses from the Department for Infrastructure.”
“I have not met any of the commissioners yet. Right now, the working group —. He is sighing quite a lot, Mr Speaker. He is not very happy, but I am setting out the position for him.”
“I have not met the commissioner at this stage. Obviously, right now —. The Member is shaking his head, but it is the truth. I have not met the commissioner at this stage.”
“Once the group has completed its work programme, and on receipt of relevant departmental approvals, officials will bring both draft strategies for my consideration, and I will then bring them to the Executive.”
“All Departments are engaged in the development of the Ulster-Scots language, heritage and culture strategy and the Irish language strategy through the work of the programme of the cross-departmental working group. The group is working to ensure that each strategy is coherent, costed and accompanied by a series of achievable actions within departmental remits. The detailed timing for that work is, to a large degree, outside the control of my Department. There is a wide range of material to be considered. Ministers need to take into account their existing departmental priorities and budgets and the practicalities involved in delivering on the vision.”
“You are trying to muddy the waters and insert some uncertainty into this. These were all carefully considered. I have to take into consideration all the evidence. That is exactly what we have done.”
“You have to let me answer the question. That is how Question Time works. <BR /> <BR />I engaged with other stakeholders. I have engaged with those who came forward. The response to each of the recommendations was set out by me in the Chamber, and they were informed by a variety of factors. Do not try to muddy the waters in any way and say that —.”
“The Member is making that up. She has no idea of what informed my view or the view of this —.”
“I have not rejected the author's recommendations in relation to local producers' licences. We introduced those licences to modernise the regime in 2022. We are under an obligation to undertake a statutory review of the provisions, which I anticipate will be launched early next year. My response to the author's recommendations, in addition to the need for further revision and reform, will be considered in the context of the responses to that wider review. My Department does not have the power to require pubs to provide a guest beer tap on their premises, and it will be for the Department for the Economy and Invest NI to look at that, but we will be reviewing that next year.”
“The Member is just making generalisations. We do not have any evidence for what he has just said. That is why we have said that we are going to look at what the causes are of the licenses being surrendered to off-licences rather than other pubs. You have to look at the picture across the UK and Ireland, where there are different licensing regimes in place. They are having similar issues in those areas. Pubs and bars are struggling to stay open in other parts of the UK as well, so I do not think that you can lay that entirely at the feet of the licensing regime. I hope that the Member listened to what I said when I made the statement in the Chamber and to what I have said today. He is wrong to assert that nothing is being done on the issue.”
“The abolition of the surrender principle in its totality would have a detrimental impact on existing hospitality businesses. I do not accept, however, the Member's assertion that I am taking a do-nothing approach. I have already outlined some of the actions that I will take in the near future. There is also further work to be done — I have set out that work already — on how the current licensing regime has contributed to the growth in off-licences at the expense of pub licences and how that is informed by changes in demand. We will look at how increases in pub sales have contributed to alcohol-related harms. We will also look at occasional licences and at producers' licences. The Member's characterisation of the issue is wrong.”
“The relevant recommendations in the report on a review of the local producer's licence are to be considered as part of a departmental review of those provisions that is expected to launch early next year.”
“My published response outlines the actions that I have instructed my officials to take. Actions that can be delivered in the shorter term include approving an industry code of practice from 1 January that will strengthen existing provisions associated with the recommendation for mandatory training on responsible service, protecting vulnerable groups and alcohol harm for licence holders and staff; improving the accessibility of the licensing regime, including updating the Department's dedicated liquor licensing web page and working with court staff on the design of its modernisation and digitalisation programme; and investigating the options for the licensing of cultural venues, including the potential to introduce secondary legislation to expand the categories of venue eligible to apply for a place of public entertainment licence.”
“We are simply saying that we want to get the disability employment rate up to where it is in the rest of the UK and that doing so will have £750 million of economic benefits. That is why the strategy is out for consultation. I encourage people to respond to it. I hope that, in doing that and through implementing the measures, we can change the perceptions of disabled people and show that work is a route for them. I hope that the strategy will impact on many people in Upper Bann and beyond.”
“The Member is absolutely right to raise the issue. That is why my disability and work strategy is out for consultation right now, as she will know. Its ambition is to lift the disability employment rate from 40% to 50%, which represents an additional 50,000 people in employment. That is the combined total of the current workforce of the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust. That is the difference that we can make. <BR /> <BR />Not only is it good for employers to have access to a wider pool of talent and for employees to have the economic and health benefits of being in work but it will result in savings from welfare payments and in money from income tax of £750 million a year.”
“In Upper Bann specifically, over 40 JobStart opportunities are already available for claimants in the area. Staff in my jobs and benefits offices in Banbridge, Lurgan and Portadown provide help and support daily to claimants and jobseekers in the Member's constituency. That ranges from job clubs and mini job fairs to bespoke employment and training opportunities. We also fund a range of activities that are designed not only to get more people into work but, importantly, to keep people in work, particularly if they are trying to manage health conditions or disabilities.”
“I am fully committed to helping people into employment as a key route out of poverty. That is why I have championed employment programmes and initiatives to help people across Northern Ireland, including in the Upper Bann constituency. I have provided £685,000 to the Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Labour Market Partnership this year. That funding is delivering a wide range of supports to individuals, including a return-to-work programme, a disability employment programme, a disability upskilling programme and a classroom assistant academy. <BR /> <BR />On 6 October, I announced a £12·4 million JobStart scheme focused on supporting working-age benefit claimants to move into employment. There has been a positive start across Northern Ireland.”
“We need to work hard at getting more people the opportunities they need, getting more people into work, tackling fuel poverty, having better energy efficiency and ensuring that we have better-paid jobs in Northern Ireland. That is what I want to focus on.”
“I want to see targets set that are realistic, achievable, sustainable and, most important, based on evidence. The last estimate that we have of the cost of introducing a child payment in Northern Ireland is just short of £300 million a year, and that does not count IT and other delivery costs. However, I have yet to see clear evidence that that funding would have the intended impact. Scotland is not on track to meet its targets, despite the delivery of a new child payment costing their Government in excess of £471 million annually. <BR /> <BR />Let me be clear: I am not at all opposed to spending more money to make sure that we tackle poverty, but I want it done in the right way. That highlights the distinction between choosing what is popular and what is right.”
“The Member is right to highlight that there are issues that cut across Departments, and that is why it is a cross-departmental and Executive anti-poverty strategy. There have been ongoing discussions at the cross-departmental working group level to look at the actions that we can put in place that will make a difference. <BR /> <BR />We need to spend our money where it can be most effective and go towards those in need. That is where the issues come, along with the universal approach to free school meals in particular. I assure the Member that there has been close working with the Education Minister on a number of the issues that will affect children and young people in schools.”
“I anticipate that, throughout the lifespan of the strategy, as individual Departments develop and deliver actions, they may wish to use the potential of the Children's Services Co-operation Act to ensure a joined-up and sustainable approach to delivery. That will be especially important where actions to be delivered require partnership work and extend across the competency and vires of more than one Department. In particular, when developing the associated action plan for the anti-poverty strategy, I will ensure that colleagues consider the Children’s Service Co-operation Act where appropriate.”
“That is why I am bringing forward the fuel strategy and why it will have targeted measures to help those most in need. The issues that the Member raises are a direct result of the inefficiency of some of our homes, so that will be addressed. <BR /> <BR />We are not considering Awaab's law at the minute because we have other measures and standards already in place in Northern Ireland that were not present in England and the rest of the UK. However, those things will all be kept under review.”
“I am happy to confirm that I will make significant bids to the Executive for the fuel poverty strategy. I want it to be ambitious and transformational, and it is a good investment. We have been good in recent years at handing people funding to help them with their energy bills, but that helps for only one year. I want to do something that is much longer-term and that has recurring benefit every year without a recurring cost. That is one of the best ways that we can use our money and one of the best ways that we can tackle poverty, because so much poverty in Northern Ireland can be attributed to fuel poverty and the costs associated with it. I will make ambitious bids to the Executive and look forward to support for something that can be truly transformational.”
“Yes, because that is one of the most effective ways that we can use our money, whether that is on boilers, insulation or other measures that can have benefit year-on-year, as I outlined in my previous answer. I committed an opening budget of £7·5 million to the affordable warmth scheme this year, covering 5% of committed approvals from the previous year and £2·5 million for new approvals this year. As always, I requested additional funding for the affordable warmth scheme in the monitoring rounds; however, those bids were not met. For that reason, I have committed a further £1·5 million to the scheme this year for new approvals, and that will be found from within my Department's budget.”
“I do not have that analysis to hand. However, before the end of this month, I will present the new fuel poverty strategy to the Executive. The point of that strategy is to make sure that we have measures in place that will make a difference. I am clear that we need to make sure that we target people with interventions that will make a difference not just for one winter but year after year. We will do that by making sure that improvements are made to homes and to heating systems. Those measures have the longer-term impact and bring better value for money, which is what I am determined to deliver.”
“Alongside that, over the past five years, my Department has continued to deliver cold weather payments, discretionary support schemes, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive (NIHE) oil-buying networks, the NIHE energy savings advice line, the affordable warmth scheme and winter fuel payments.”
“Over the past five financial years, my Department has implemented the following policies to tackle fuel poverty and reduce the impact of rising energy costs. The COVID-19 heating payment scheme was established in 2021 as part of the COVID-19 response to assist households to offset additional heating costs incurred during the pandemic so that they would not create an added burden or anxiety. The energy payment support scheme was implemented in 2022. The cost-of-living support payments commenced in 2022-23 and extended into 2023-24. In October 2024, I secured £17 million in Executive funding, enabling a one-off £100 payment during the winter of 2024-25 for pensioners affected by changes to the winter fuel payment scheme.”
“I certainly recognise that issue. It has been raised with me, and it is one of the reasons why we took seriously the recommendation that the provision of a guest tap, featuring a local producer's product, could be part of getting a licence. That would be very important for our local producers. We do not have the power to require pubs to provide a guest beer tap on their premises. However, I will refer that to the Department for the Economy and Invest NI. I would support such a move.”
“It is the Member who needs to wise up. I think that I have spent enough time answering his question.”
“— and you just expect that money will magically appear to do whatever it is that you think needs to be done.”
“You have no idea whatsoever how business works —”
“There is certainly no room for any harassment whatsoever of employees or anyone in any position. However, it is important that we look at the impacts of the decisions that we make here. If we were to bring in a regime that required businesses to pay for their staff's travel home, it would add significant costs to —. The Member shakes his head, but he has complained about the cost of drinks. Where does that cost come from? It comes from the fact that there are overheads, staffing costs and other issues. He is saying that cost should be added to —”
“I am certainly happy to look at those allegations and get more information, if necessary. I will come back to the Member in writing, once that has been carried out.”
“That is important and should be taken into consideration when we look at the licensing regime.”
“I apologise to the House, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, because I do not have that information to hand, but I will be happy to provide it to the Member directly in writing.”
“Hospitality Ulster did that when it took all those impacts into consideration, and it is useful for us to listen to that.”
“Hospitality Ulster provided us with those figures. The authors of the report echoed the findings of a 2007 Grant Thornton report on the surrender principle, which was commissioned by what was then the Department for Social Development. It said that it would be challenging to calculate the cost of reform with any degree of certainty. That is why it is important that we also listen to the evidence that others bring forward. <BR /> <BR />Costs of reform to the surrender principle need to take into account the impact on licensed premises, potential changes in job numbers and the impact on the profitability of the sector as a whole. That is why it is good to listen to those on the ground — those with lived experience, shall we say, about whom we are often keen to talk in this place.”
“That is why we do not take such decisions lightly. We have to take into consideration the impact that it would have. Unfortunately, as the Member noted, the authors did not cost the impact of their proposed reform, which is why it would be irresponsible of me to take that forward.”
“Although we do not have those figures ourselves, figures have been provided by Hospitality Ulster. It has suggested that the cost of reform of the surrender principle, when you factor in loss of trading value, could be up to £313·7 million.”
“Absolutely. I agree, and I highlighted that in my speech. There are many that are under pressure and many that are just about keeping their head above water. This would be a seismic change and not one that has been properly costed or its impact properly assessed. It is important that that is all kept at the forefront of people's minds. It is easy to come to the House and say, "Minister, we should change x or y", but that can have direct consequences for other people and that needs to be kept in mind. We must put in place reforms that are fair and proportionate, and changes to the surrender principle in the way suggested would not have fulfilled that.”