Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“First, it is clear to me that some people do not understand what their responsibilities are. Secondly, there is never any harm in reminding people or, indeed, in telling the House, because I have received numerous questions for written answer on the issue, and not everybody has been clear on the rules. As I said in my answer to a previous question, we are happy to look at the legislation and at whether additional legislation is required — a review of the Act was done in 2021 — but it is important that people use the powers that are available to them and make sure that local people have their say.”
“It is absolutely right that councils consider local people's views on the proliferation of HMOs on certain streets or in wider areas. That is why it is important that councils have policies in place and adhere to them as part of the planning process. Of course, it is absolutely legitimate for people to raise concerns and say, "I have concerns about what this will do to the residential nature of this area and that it is transforming it from a family area into an area with more HMO accommodation", or that they raise concerns about other associated issues such as the provision of waste water infrastructure or parking, which are particularly pertinent in the example that the Member referred to in our constituency. That is why it is important that councils do the work, put the policies in place and ensure that local people have a say.”
“That is one of the reasons that I made the statement today and that I wrote to council chief executives. I did so to make them aware of the powers that they have available to them. Some councils' local development plans have no provision at all for HMOs. That council took the right decision last week. There will be different approaches taken. It is up to councils to decide on their approach on the basis of the particular circumstances in an area or even on a street. It is right that councils have the ability to take decisions in accordance with what is right for an area. My concern, however, is that there is inconsistency, in that sometimes no policies whatever are in place. That is what councils should seek to rectify.”
“It is not the only issue — of course it is not — but it absolutely contributes.”
“I agree with the Member. There are others in the Chamber who continue to bury their head in the sand and say that the UK Government's policy on housing and immigration has not had an impact on housing in Northern Ireland: of course it has. This Government and the previous Government accelerated the rate of their decision-making on right-to-remain applications, changing it from being a UK Government responsibility to being the responsibility of the Housing Executive and, ultimately, my Department. That is one of the reasons that we have seen an increase in temporary accommodation, which has resulted in additional housing stress. <BR /> <BR />I hear tuts from around the Chamber, but that is not opinion but fact. It is having an impact, and that is why we need to take the issue seriously.”
“I am, of course, taking forward the measures in the Private Tenancies Act (Northern Ireland) 2022, with which the Member will be familiar, and that work will continue.”
“Again it seems as though Sinn Féin has a different statement from the one that I read out. I have been clear that there is an issue and that there are concerns. I have made it clear to the House today what powers are available to councils to put in place measures to ensure that the right policies are there to determine whether a HMO should come into existence in the first place and that, if HMOs are there, be they legal or illegal, landlords adhere to their responsibilities and, if they do not, there will be the threat of a fine. <BR /> <BR />The Member is absolutely correct to say that we have issues with housing. That is why I am seeking more money from the Minister of Finance, and I am sure that that will be forthcoming in due course. It is also why we are looking at other measures to improve housing provision.”
“That is one of the reasons why there are higher standards for HMOs. It is set out in the Act, and landlords are subject to more stringent standards because of the nature of those who may need to use HMOs. Additional concerns can come from local residents in those areas about the proliferation of HMOs. That is why higher standards are already in place. Of course, they can be reviewed if necessary.”
“If residents have concerns with those issues — that has been my experience as an elected representative — members of the public can report concerns either directly to the Northern Ireland HMO unit, which is based in Belfast City Council, or to their local authority so that appropriate action can be taken.”
“Additional work comes with the administration of HMOs, and it is right that those who benefit from it pay a contribution towards it, which is why I am increasing the fee. Also, there is the ability to get income from penalising those who act outside the law. That is how this will be funded, and most people find it reasonable that the money that comes from those who operate illegally is paid so that we can continue the work of cracking down on that behaviour.”
“I have largely set out today what I said in that correspondence, but, if the Member would like to see it, I am more than happy to share it with him and others. I will arrange for it to be placed in the Assembly Library.”
“Ultimately, it will be for the UK Government to bring in and consider all the evidence. I take a simple position on this, which is that those who want to rent a property should have the legal right to do so. That should not be a controversial statement. We do this in all aspects of our lives. We make sure that people are legally entitled to a good or a service before they are able to get it. If there is racial or any other sort of discrimination, we should use the law to tackle it, but we should not ignore another part of the law. I think that most people in Northern Ireland and beyond think that it is perfectly reasonable and credible that, if you want to rent property in Northern Ireland, you must have a legal right to be here.”
“They should not be operating without proper planning permission. I have had a number of reports of that happening — various examples have been brought to my attention — particularly in the Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council area. Those have now been reported to the council and are being investigated. HMOs require planning permission. If they are operating without that planning permission, that should be reported to the HMO unit or to your local council's planning authority so that we can do what needs to be done to make sure that people are adhering to the law and that, if they are not prepared to adhere to the law, they receive the necessary fine and punishment.”
“The Member must be reading a different statement, because I have not scapegoated anybody at all. I have set out clearly the powers that are available to councils. I hope that councils will use those powers in determining HMO applications but also in taking enforcement action against people who are here legally and people who are here illegally. Those powers are available to deal with those landlords. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, how do we deal with many of the housing issues that we face? We deal with them by building more homes. I encourage the Member to speak to his party colleagues who are in the Executive, because I want to make sure that we can meet our housing targets, including our social housing targets. I hope that his Executive colleagues will join me in ensuring that the necessary finance is available.”
“It is right that councils put in place policies that can ensure that those areas are protected and that, when people are doing something illegal, action is taken and fines are used. It is those fines that will fund the HMO unit, which can take that enforcement action.”
“First of all, I am happy to look at any legislative change that may be required, but I would rather use the powers that are available to us and to councils right now, because my understanding and feeling from talking to elected representatives and others on the ground is that they feel that councils are not taking the appropriate action to deal with the problems that many people face. <BR /> <BR />I make no apology whatsoever for making the statement today. I make no apology for setting out the powers and responsibilities that are there. I can highlight many cases where this issue is having an impact on people and is changing the residential nature and make-up of an area.”
“Today's statement sets out the clear expectations that I have of every council in Northern Ireland to ensure that they exercise the powers available to them. I have also demonstrated my support by increasing the fees to landlords, which will support councils and the HMO unit to carry out their responsibilities, and I will continue to engage with His Majesty's Government on bringing the right-to-rent scheme to Northern Ireland. I encourage anyone who has concerns or suspicions about unlicensed HMOs, or knows of other issues with HMOs, to report those to their local council or the HMO unit for investigation and action. I commend the statement to the House.”
“I am, therefore, increasing the maximum amount that can be charged for a HMO licence application to ensure the adequate resourcing and operation of the licensing scheme. <BR /> <BR />The private rented sector in Northern Ireland is under strain, so it is important that landlords who decide to break the law are held to account. Therefore, I can confirm that I have written to the Home Office and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, requesting that they extend the right-to-rent scheme to Northern Ireland. That would ensure that landlords in Northern Ireland have a legal obligation, as landlords do in England, to ensure that prospective tenants have legal status to reside in the United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />I have always said that I will do what I can with what I have.”
“Councils, however, have substantial powers under the Act to manage issues that are reported about that type of accommodation, including powers to obtain information and enter premises. Councils also have powers to issue fixed penalty notices and fines and proceed to prosecution if necessary. The most serious offences carry fixed penalties of £5,000 and fines of up to £20,000. Between April 2019 and early September 2025, there were only 77 fixed penalty notices issued, two successful prosecutions for the operation of unlicensed HMOs and one successful prosecution for exceeding the licensed occupancy. The operation of the HMO licensing scheme is funded by the licence fees that are paid by landlords.”
“Where an individual has been accepted by the Home Office as a refugee and given leave to remain in the UK, that will, in most cases, bring an entitlement to access public services, including housing assistance, for which my Department is responsible in Northern Ireland. Approximately 250 HMOs are in use by Mears across Northern Ireland to provide accommodation for asylum seekers and refugees. I have raised concerns on several occasions about the Mears accommodation issues, and I do not plan to rehearse them all today. It is, however, the case that the system is not working and that current policies are failing communities across Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />There are higher risks associated with HMOs, and they often have a negative impact on neighbourhoods and the balance of a community.”
“<BR /> <BR />Regrettably, there are many inconsistencies of approach, and some councils have not exercised their powers to the fullest extent when it comes to that legislation. For that reason, I can confirm that I will be writing to all council chief executives, outlining their obligations and my expectations under the legislation. Councils have powers to investigate, enforce and punish those landlords who are acting outside the law. I expect councils to implement their own HMO policies, including setting a limit on the percentage of HMOs in a certain area. <BR /> <BR />Immigration is an excepted matter, and the lead Department with responsibility for legal obligations to asylum seekers across the UK, including for accommodation, is the Home Office.”
“<BR /> <BR />Controls on the numbers of HMOs are necessary to ensure that any detrimental effects on neighbouring properties or the environmental character and qualities of residential areas are minimised. Unfortunately, it is recognised that over-concentrations of HMOs were allowed to develop in some areas, which left some challenges to be addressed. The Houses in Multiple Occupation Act (Northern Ireland) 2016 provides councils with a key statutory tool to prevent future over-concentrations of HMOs through the over-provision test. That means that when considering an application for a new HMO, councils must have regard to the number of HMOs that are already in the locality. Councils should also have their own policies on HMO provision and set restrictions on numbers or percentages of HMOs in certain areas.”
“HMOs are useful in some circumstances, for example, when it comes to student accommodation or for those on a low income. Indeed, the benefits system presumes that single people under 35 will share accommodation and normally limits housing benefit and universal credit to a shared accommodation rate on that basis. We must acknowledge, however, that that type of housing carries higher risks in safety and standards and can have wider community impacts. We must ensure that those matters are managed responsibly while maintaining the right balance across communities, ensuring that housing needs are met without creating undue pressure or changing the character of neighbourhoods.”
“I wish to make a statement to the Assembly on the enforcement and licensing of houses in multiple occupation (HMOs). In recent months, there has been an increased focus on HMOs, with concerns being raised about concentrations of that type of accommodation in certain areas. I am also aware of reports about overcrowding and about the operation of unlicensed HMOs. The purpose of my statement today is to address those concerns and provide clarity on the licensing regime for HMOs that operates in Northern Ireland and the responsibilities for enforcement. <BR /> <BR />Let me first clarify what HMOs are. An HMO is a property or part of a property where three or more people from more than two households live and share washing or cooking facilities.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. Does he concede that it is not only the DUP that has outlined its concerns about the climate change targets, given that the Climate Change Committee said in its 2021 report that we were going beyond what was required to ensure that the UK hit net zero? In fact, going too far too fast can have problems for Northern Ireland. So, it is not just we who have said it; it is the experts, whom his party ignored.”
“We have had the consultation and we will see where we go from here. I am determined that we sort out this issue.”
“I have outlined how much is still in it. I do not really see the relevance of that point. That was and is the case. <BR /> <BR />My time is almost up.”
“I was in the Executive meeting, Mr McCrossan, when it was agreed that the draft strategy would go out to consultation. For weeks beforehand, Ministers had had the papers and had contributed to the action points. It was agreed. Questions were asked of me, I answered them, and we went out to consultation. It is fair to say, therefore, that, yes, I was surprised, standing beside the First Minister, to hear what she had to say, given that not only had the Executive signed off on the strategy but Sinn Féin Ministers had contributed to it.”
“One second. <BR /> <BR />Some of us want to go further. I would like to go further as well. I will work with all those who are interested and will look at what comes to us as we finish analysing the consultation responses and hear from the Committee and others. I am more than happy to look into that and see what can be taken on board, but, if Mr Durkan and others say that they would bring in a child payment, childcare and all the other things, we will need to be honest about that.”
“I am not sure what the Member specifically refers to. It is clear, however, that his party tabled the motion without saying how it would pay for it. While we are talking about those who are wrong, I will add that Mr McCrossan said that child poverty has got worse in Northern Ireland, whereas, in fact, it has not changed over the past couple of years. The party got something else wrong: I think that Mr McGlone said that the Public Accounts Committee's recommendations were trashed, but they have been taken on, one of them partially and the rest in full. <BR /> <BR />What I am saying, I hope, clearly, to the House is that we have a draft anti-poverty strategy that is costed and that, we believe, tackles some of the root causes of poverty in Northern Ireland.”
“— but this draft anti-poverty strategy is affordable. <BR /> <BR />The Member is getting very exercised. I am more than happy to give way to him.”
“— or maybe it would be best to invest it in retrofitting or childcare or some of the other issues that we want to tackle. I will have that debate —”
“— but the information that we have is that it has not moved beyond the margin or error. However, let us have the debate. Maybe that was a good investment. Maybe the £490 million that went into the child payment would be the best way for us to spend money —”
“There he goes again: he is making it political. I have not disregarded the sector. I am not saying that at all, and I think that he is being disingenuous in saying that. I genuinely want to work with people to get this right. I have done nothing but set out facts. The Member quoted statistics from the Scottish Government. They might have a special interest in this —”
“I am not prepared to do that. I want delivery, not delusion.”
“That is good for them and will help their life chances. Do you know what else it will do? It will allow us to have more money. With an average of £15,000 of savings per person to Treasury each year through National Insurance contributions and tax revenue, those 50,000 people getting into work will represent £750 million a year. Think of what we could do with that money, getting it to people who are in work and still need support. <BR /> <BR />To the House and to all the groups that are interested in listening, I say that I am more than happy to explore those options. I will listen to what has been said during the consultation period and will take that on board, but I will be realistic. I will not support anything going through the Executive that I do not believe will work or make a difference or that is simply a wish list.”
“Perhaps we can find the money from somewhere. Perhaps there are other things that we can stop in order to enable the child payment to be introduced, but that would need to be tested. <BR /> <BR />I want to make sure that we spend every pound that we have in the best possible way. I want every pound to have maximum impact. That is why I am so passionate about the fuel poverty strategy. So much of households' income goes towards keeping their homes warm. If we can put more investment into retrofitting and making them energy efficient, it will benefit our constituents not just for one year but every year after that. It is why I am so passionate about getting people into work. The disability and work strategy will take our employment rate up from 40% to 50% and get 50,000 more people into work.”
“The Executive can consider that and decide what we can take forward. <BR /> <BR />That takes me to the next issue that I want to address, which is the need for us to be grown-up. I have said how easy it would be for me to fill the strategy with all the wonderful things that we might be able to do, but it comes down to funding. We can have our priorities, but we have to recognise that they come with a price tag. Take the child payment of £300 million, for example. I do not think that the evidence from Scotland is convincing: it has not moved the needle beyond the margin of error for how to analyse those who may be in poverty in Scotland. Let us talk about the child payment. The Member included that in the motion, although he did not know how much it would cost and has no plan for how it could be funded.”
“It would have been the easiest thing in the world for me to bring forward a plan that included a child payment — Mr Durkan called for a child payment in his motion without even knowing how much it would cost — or more money for childcare, or which removed the two-child limit or included more free school meals or other free provision. I could have brought that forward, stuffed it all into the strategy, and then handed it over to the Executive and said, "There you go", but I am not prepared to do that. In the previous debate, the leader of the Opposition said how fed up he is with people bringing forward unrealistic proposals, and I am not doing that. What we have here is affordable and costed. We have gone out to consultation and asked, "Where do you think we fall short? What else can we do? What can we do to make a difference?".”
“I will say two things. First, it is wrong to say that there are no new actions, because I have just read those out. It seems in this place that, no matter how often I give not opinion but fact, Members argue against that. OK, we will take that on board. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, this is a plan that is out for consultation. Well, the consultation has now closed, but the plan was out for consultation. We have an opportunity to hear, and I have said from the start that we will listen to all the ideas, but what I was not prepared to do was introduce a strategy that was unaffordable and uncosted.”
“One second. <BR /> <BR />The Make the Call service that I am continuing to invest in is important. It may seem small, but, in 2023-24, we generated £62·1 million of annualised benefits. You do not think that that will have an impact on poverty? I make no apology whatsoever for those things that we are continuing and the new actions that have been included, some of which, by the way, have already been delivered, as well as the housing supply strategy. <BR /> <BR />I miss Mr McCrossan. He is not on the Committee any more. I am more than happy to give way to him.”
“You say that it will not make any difference. You do not think that welfare mitigations will make any difference? You do not think that the fuel poverty strategy, through which we will invest more than we have ever done before in retrofitting people's homes, will have an impact? What about the extended schools programme and the Make the Call service, in which I am continuing to invest?”
“— as well as the Healthy Child Healthy Future programme and the new People and Place strategy. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to Mr McCrossan, but I need to give way to Mr Baker first. <BR /> <BR />One action that came forward last week was a new employability programme worth £12 million that will target some of the hardest to reach in order to get them into work. I have seen the impacts of that first-hand, and it changes lives. There are new actions. <BR /> <BR />I will come on in a second to some of the new things that we may be able to take on afterwards, but I will give way to Mr Baker first.”
“There are new actions in there. There are new things that we have started since the Executive returned and new things that we are continuing to do, including the adoption of the housing supply strategy; the extension of welfare mitigation payments; the fuel poverty strategy; the £23 million subsidy for working parents; the childcare strategy that is coming forward; and all the other issues that I have just mentioned —”
“Just one second. The co-design group asked that we maximise and improve access to benefits advice and support for older people. Those things are there. It is wrong of the Member to say that everything has been scrapped. <BR /> <BR />Let me move on to something else that the Member is wrong on, and then I will take an intervention from him. This has been repeated ad nauseam by others: they say that there are no new actions in the anti-poverty strategy. We heard that again and again, and it is demonstrably wrong. There are new actions. Mr McCrossan, who is used to being wrong, is shaking his head.”
“We know about the legislation that has been brought in on school uniforms, which it asked for as well. The co-design group asked for mitigation payments to be extended. I have done that. The co-design group asked that we continue to pressure the UK Government on the pensions triple lock. I have done that. The co-design group highlighted the need for a childcare strategy. We agreed, and, within weeks, the Education Minister will introduce that. The co-design group raised issues of low pay and workers' rights. The Member's party colleague is addressing that, unless he is saying that that is no longer the case. The co-design group highlighted housing as an issue, and the Executive housing supply strategy is in there as well.”
“That is why I take exception to some of the comments, particularly those made by Cathy Mason and Danny Baker, though I am pleased to engage with Mr Baker; I do not see him often at any debates that I am here for. One of the first things that he said was that there is nothing new in the strategy. He said that I had scrapped everything that the co-design group wanted. I think that he said that I had put it in the bin. That is just wrong. <BR /> <BR />Let me go through some of the things that the co-design group asked for that are in the strategy. It wanted period poverty to be included. That is in there. It identified the need to tackle fuel poverty. That is in there. It identified the need to make school attendance cost-neutral. Work is ongoing on that. We have the continuation of the extended schools programme and the RAISE programme.”
“I emphasise that point not because I am trying to share any of the brickbats that are coming towards me but because it has to be done together. We have to do it in a joined-up fashion. Therefore, I take exception to some of the comments that have been made about the draft anti-poverty strategy, because I brought it to the Executive. I did not present it as my plan or proposals, because, first, we had the cross-departmental working group. We went out to all Departments and asked, "What can you do, and what do you think that we should have in the strategy that can make a meaningful difference?". The Ministers came back with their ideas. Those ideas were put into the draft strategy, and the Executive, as a whole, agreed that it should go forward to the next stage.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank all those who contributed to the debate. It is an important issue. It is probably one of the most important issues that we face, because poverty is a curse, and child poverty is particularly egregious. Poverty limits potential and harms people and their life chances. I am serious and sincere in my attempts to try to deal with that issue. For what it is worth, I believe that others in the Chamber are sincere as well. We all want to tackle the issue and to work together to make sure that we can make a meaningful difference in people's lives. <BR /> <BR />The fact that we all need to work together on child poverty is the first thing to highlight. It is an Executive strategy.”
“We are looking at the availability of waste water infrastructure and, of course, that is a big part of the housing supply strategy. That strategy has been successful, because Departments are now starting to talk to each other and work together to maximise output. The Member will see the benefit that comes from that very soon.”