Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“I send a message to those who find that they do not need the funding that they have been given. I encourage them — I am sure that the Member agrees, as he is nodding — to consider giving that support to the fantastic charities and organisations that help those who are in need. I hope that the Member will consider that.”
“I am more than happy to have delivered for Mr Chambers and, more importantly, for many other people across Northern Ireland. On the engagement that I have had, many people contacted me to encourage me to take action like that which I am taking today. That will, I think, be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />I know that there are questions about the universal nature of the payment, but we have to understand the processes, tools and levers that were available to us; they were limited. I wish that we were in a position simply to give the resource to those who are most in need, but, unfortunately, we have to take this approach. The organisations that the Member refers to will understand and recognise that action of a universal nature was needed because there was simply no alternative.”
“Certainty, most of my engagement with UK Departments has been with DWP. However, on the wider issue of the winter fuel payment and the need for its reinstatement, I have raised that at every opportunity with every UK Minister who has any responsibility in the area. It is a one-off payment, but I hope that the Government will reconsider their decision, see sense and restore that funding. The decision that they have made will end up costing them more. I encourage others in the House to make that case to the Government so that we can help those who are in need.”
“I would have hoped that the Member would welcome £100 for all those who lost out as a result of the Labour Government's changes. Why did I prioritise this? It is because I bid for and secured funding on the basis that it would be used to help those who had otherwise lost out. That money was ring-fenced from the Finance Minister to me for that purpose. I was not able to use it for anything else, because it was there to ameliorate some of the impacts of the winter fuel payment cut. It is fairly straightforward, I would have thought.”
“We will be using the database that was used in the past, which, we believe, will cover everybody who is entitled. However, if there are any issues, as I said in the answer to a previous question, we will provide support to ensure that people can get in contact with us if there are any problems.”
“Yes, absolutely. Again, I am happy to confirm to the House that good progress has been made on that. We need to tackle poverty in a number of ways. We need to make sure that we prevent people from falling into poverty, that we help those experiencing poverty and that we find a way to get people out of poverty. Those will be the three pillars of the strategy. It is about making sure that we break down the barriers to employment and that, for those who cannot get employment or older people in society, we have a safety net that means that they can live comfortable and warm lives.”
“This is a continuation of what was previously in place, albeit at a lower level. It is a one-off payment, and I think that we can all agree that it will be of value and worth because it is going to those who have otherwise been forgotten by the Labour Government.”
“Let me say this about the anti-poverty strategy: it has been a requirement, under the 1998 Act, for coming onto 26 years to deliver an anti-poverty strategy. None of the previous Ministers has been in a position to do that. As I have already confirmed and am happy to confirm again, that will be brought to the Executive in January. It has been a priority for me. I have been making progress on it. I want to make sure that it is fit for purpose. I want to make sure that I have buy-in from Executive colleagues, which is why I have set up an interdepartmental working group so that we can make progress on those issues and tackle the root causes of poverty and not just deal with the symptoms. As I have said, it will be brought forward, and I look forward to delivering, once more, in this Department.”
“As I said, I hope that that will happen as soon as possible. I will continue to put the pressure on to ensure that those who are in need get this as soon as possible.”
“First, thankfully, very few man-hours or woman-hours will need to be used on this, because we will be using a system that is already in place. That takes me to the second part of the Member's question, which is in relation to how this is processed. Essentially, there is the data set of everybody who was previously getting it. Those who are on pension credit will have been taken out, so we will be using the remainder to process this. It will take some time, because we are using the DWP system, and we need to get in there. DWP has given us permission to do that and said that it will deliver this. We need to get a slot to get in there because, obviously, the IT systems are used for various different changes, including the current winter fuel payment changes that will be taking place in the rest of the UK.”
“Yes, absolutely. I want to confirm that and be very clear, and I would appreciate it if Members could share that information as well. My Department will never ask for bank details or personal information by phone, by text or by email, and we have updated the benefit-related pages on nidirect to make that clear. If anyone does get such a message, it will be a scam, and you should report any suspicious emails or text messages that are asking for your bank details.”
“First, if someone was in receipt of a payment before, they will continue to be in receipt of that payment, because we still have the details in the DWP system that we are using. However, as always, there are those who feel that they may miss out or that there have been some issues that mean that they have not got the support that they thought they were otherwise going to get, so, of course, there will be support from my Department to make sure that we can help those who fall through there. I want to make sure that we do have that support available and that people do not feel that they are lost and do not know where they can go if there is an issue.”
“I have corresponded with the Committee, of course, and we have talked through this at previous meetings. There is limited scope for us, and there was really limited debate for us to have about it. There were not many good options for us and not many good options available for the distribution of the payment, but it was my prerogative as Minister to go forward and find a way as quickly as possible to help those who are in need. That is what I have done.”
“It is entirely appropriate that we put it towards those who find themselves less well off compared with last year. However, of course, we need to have longer-term plans in place, and that is exactly what I will do with the fuel poverty strategy.”
“First of all, we have a draft fuel poverty strategy that will go out to consultation in the next number of weeks. It is important that we set a longer-term plan for how we deal with some of the issues. I strongly disagree with what the Member said about a "scattergun approach". The vast majority of people who will avail themselves of the additional support will need it, and I would rather be in a position where we give it to everybody and some who do not need get it than be in a position where many people who need it do not get it at all. It is important that we provide that support. <BR /> <BR />I got extra funding as a Barnett consequential. I bid for that, and it came for the household support fund, which is there to help the households that will be struggling this winter.”
“I am not sure, but I certainly think that they should. I do not think that it will save them any money at all; in fact, it might cost more, because you will have more people moving on to pension credit who will get not only the winter fuel payment but all the other benefits that they may be entitled to. It is an ill-thought-out policy and, I have to say, very disappointing. It is not dissimilar to issues that we were talking about last night in relation to the changes to agricultural relief with regard to inheritance tax. They are ill-thought-out policies that will have a detrimental impact on some of those who need our support and help.”
“As the Member knows, I am extremely concerned about this and the impacts that it will have. That is why I have raised it at every level that I have been able to as a Minister. I have spoken to Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office and to DWP, and, together with Executive colleagues, we have written to the Prime Minister. I would characterise the response as disappointing. It is disappointing because they do not seem to understand the plight of older people in Northern Ireland, and it is disappointing that so many continue to parrot the line that this is somehow a way in which we give lots of money to millionaires when the vast majority of people, of course, do not find themselves in that category. <BR /> <BR />The Member asked what, I think, the prospects are of them changing course on the policy.”
“We expect the full £17 million to be used for the winter fuel payment for those who will lose out, but, again, I take the opportunity to encourage people to use the Make the Call service. We have had a fantastic response to that. Millions and millions of pounds of additional benefit are being delivered to people across Northern Ireland, simply because they are now applying for and getting the benefits that they are entitled to. I encourage the Member and others to, in the first instance, get people to use that service.”
“Additional applications have been made for pension credit. Obviously, those need to go through the system, and it will take a little time before we have the information about the number of people who were successful. Those who are entitled to pension credit will not only see its full restoration but have the ability to avail themselves of many other benefits. <BR /> <BR />The objective of the fuel poverty strategy is to make sure that everyone lives in a warm home. The emergency fuel support certainly aligns with that strategy, which I hope to be able to put in place after consultation, in that it will ensure that people have more resource specifically to pay for their fuel needs.”
“<BR /> <BR />The reason why it is a flat-rate payment that will go to all pensioners is that we have limited tools at our disposal in how we allocate the funding in Northern Ireland. We are using the existing Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) systems. They are in place, and we have permission to use them for this year. It is right and appropriate that we do this as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />I did not want to get us into a position where we had an application process and people had to fill in forms or that our older people had to go online or get someone to help them. We would then have needed to use very many man-hours of Department officials' time to deliver the payment. I wanted the support to go out as simply and straightforwardly as possible. That is why we have done what we have done.”
“Yes. I said that I intended to make a statement to the House. Is it in any way inappropriate for me to indicate that I will make a statement to the House? No, it is not. In fact, I know that that is not the case because I spoke directly to the Speaker and told him that I intended to make a statement. I asked him whether he had an issue with my publicising the fact that I was going to make a statement to make people aware, and he said no. The Member is shaking her head, but I spoke to the Speaker and got that assurance. She is still shaking her head: maybe she had conversations with the Speaker that I know nothing about. I gave no detail of the information in my statement or about the extra £100 that will go to households that did not previously get it.”
“First, in any online post or comment that I made prior to my statement today, I said that I would be coming forward with a proposal. I did not indicate in those posts —.”
“I am tempted to say that, if the Member thinks that the Opposition or other parties will come forward with alternative proposals, perhaps she is being a little naive. She will be aware that lots of people like to sit on the other side of the Chamber and pontificate about what they would like to see, but they have no concrete plan to deliver it and no idea of where it would come from. <BR /> <BR />The payment will assist almost a quarter of a million pensioners. Those are people who live in households that would otherwise have lost out. It is not everything that we would like to be in a position to give, but it is some help that will be available for them.”
“I look forward to going out to consultation and getting responses, but it is important that, in the meantime, we give whatever help we can, which is what I am doing.”
“The Member asks a couple of questions. First, as I outlined in my statement, it is a one-off payment for this year, because that is the money that I currently have available. I, of course, hope to be in a position to extend the household support fund. I emphasise, however, that, although the payment is not a permanent one — we are not in a position to do that — we are doing what we can to help. <BR /> <BR />The Member raised the important issue of longer-term support. I will go out to consultation shortly on a fuel poverty strategy. We will have the anti-poverty strategy in the new year as well. There are many issues to do with fuel poverty that need to be addressed. That is where the funding can have the greatest impact for the longest period.”
“I would be interested in hearing what, if Mr McCrossan were in my position, he would have done differently. I believe that we have put the best solution that we could in place to provide some comfort to those who are in need. He is shaking his head. I would love to hear his alternative, but, of course, he does not have one.”
“If he had listened to my statement, the Member would have heard that it is for pensioner households. All that we get is criticism from the Opposition. It is not the constructive opposition that we were promised but just negativity. <BR /> <BR />The Labour Government, of whom the SDLP is a sister party, removed in its entirety 80% of the funding that was available for winter fuel payments, which meant that 80% of pensioners were going to lose out because of that decision. I stood here and said that I would do what I could with what I had. I bid for the funding and secured it, and I am getting that funding out to people across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I have been clear that it is not what I would like to be doing. I would like the payment to be fully reinstated, but I am doing what I can.”
“I hope that the announcement brings some comfort to those who were most affected. I commend the statement to the House.”
“There is also good progress being made on the fuel poverty strategy, which has the vision of a warm, healthy home for everyone. I look forward to launching the consultation in the next number of weeks. The actions from the strategy will eventually deliver future benefits for the people of Northern Ireland, but we are all acutely aware of the energy well-being needs of today. That is why I hope that the additional support will be welcomed by the pensioner households affected by Labour's decision. I have heard the stories from those who are worried about what the cut has meant for them. Although I may not be in a position to reinstate fully that which has been removed, I pledged to the House that I would do what I can to help, and that is what I have done today.”
“<BR /> <BR />Furthermore, last week I announced an uptake in additional benefits of £62 million in 2023-24 through my Department's Make the Call service, £21 million of which went to pensioners. That free and confidential service puts people in touch with support that they may be entitled to but have not been claiming. Pension credit in particular can provide access to a range of other supports and benefits, which can be a lifeline for our older generations. I want to ensure that all available support and entitlements go directly to those who need them, so I encourage everyone to make the call.”
“The payment will be made before the end of March 2025. However, I am working closely with officials to deliver it as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />As previously stated, it is extremely important that people ensure that they are receiving all the benefits that they are entitled to. Recent pension credit promotional activities by my Department have been successful, and the number of pension credit applications has increased significantly. During the period of August to October 2024, 3,026 pension credit applications were received. That is an increase of around 56% on the number of applications received in the corresponding period last year, during which there were 1,941 applications for pension credit.”
“Following careful examination of each of those options, I can confirm that a one-off winter fuel payment of £100 will be paid to all pensioner households affected by the Labour Government's decision. I believe that that initiative reflects my commitment to fairness, compassion and responsibility towards our older population. <BR /> <BR />My officials are now working at pace to prepare and bring forward the necessary legislation to finalise arrangements. The payment will be made available to all pensioner households that have had their winter fuel payments removed. There will be no application process, as we will automatically identify eligible individuals through existing records. That approach will ensure a smooth and efficient distribution of payments without the additional burden of application forms or red tape.”
“That request was to enable me to do whatever I could to alleviate the worst consequences of the winter fuel payment changes announced by the Labour Government. I have kept my promise. I am pleased to announce that I have secured £17 million to help mitigate those winter fuel payment changes. I thank my Executive colleagues for supporting my bid for that funding. <BR /> <BR />My goal is simple: to ensure that every pensioner in Northern Ireland has some support to stay warm and safe during the winter. We understand that the costs of fuel and energy are a burden on many households, particularly those on fixed incomes, as is the case with our pensioners. On the basis of the available funding, I asked my officials to explore options to help and support the pensioners impacted by the loss of the winter fuel payment.”
“<BR /> <BR />As we all know, winter brings many challenges. For our older people, staying warm and healthy during the colder months is particularly important. Energy costs are not just a financial issue; they affect people's comfort, health and quality of life. The decision by the Labour Government to remove the winter fuel payment from pensioners who are not on pension credit or other means-tested benefits has left many of our people feeling anxious about how they will manage their energy bills this winter. The decision has had a significant impact, and I recognise the need to act quickly to provide relief. <BR /> <BR />In my statement to the Assembly on 10 September, I advised that I had asked Executive colleagues to ring-fence any Barnett consequentials for cost-of-living support this winter.”
“I wish to update the Assembly regarding winter fuel payments in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Being in government is about making choices. Sometimes, we have to take difficult decisions in the best interests of the people we serve. The Labour Government have sought to portray the decision on the winter fuel payment as difficult but necessary: I could not disagree more. I have previously set out my opposition to their move, and I will continue to make the case for full reinstatement. It was not in the Labour Party manifesto; it was not even mooted by them beforehand. Secondly, I do not believe that there will be a significant financial saving, and, finally but most importantly, I believe that it will be detrimental to the health and well-being of many of our people, especially those who just fall short of qualifying for pension credit.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to points of order made earlier, is it in order for me to say that I understand that concerns have been expressed about comments that I made as I was leaving the Chamber yesterday? I believe in the cut and thrust of debate. I believe that we need to robustly challenge each other in the Chamber. I can give it, and I can take it, but I understand that there are those in the Chamber whom I have, perhaps, sincerely offended, and I am more than content to apologise for that. We need to continue that robust debate, but I understand the concerns that some have expressed today.”
“One of the benefits of getting the funding out to councils is that they can identify the partners that they can work with. I am sure that there are organisations, such as the one that the Member has mentioned, that perhaps do not operate on a Northern Ireland-wide basis but operate in different areas. Of course, they can be partners with the local council to provide those services, if they can meet the criteria that I set out.”
“It will make a difference in each of those council areas, and, instead of always finding something negative to say, perhaps we should take a moment to recognise that here we have some good news for people across Northern Ireland.”
“I do not see why there should be any issue with getting the impartial advice that people need. It has certainly been my experience that churches are exceptionally welcoming places. The people whom I have encountered in Church organisations are often the most concerned about the issues around poverty. I will highlight and celebrate the work that they do and not, in any way, denigrate the contribution that they make or say that they are unwelcoming places. It is important that we put that on the record. <BR /> <BR />The Member says that it is only £1·3 million and might not go that far, but it is £1·3 million that we have been able to deliver.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member did not ask, but I am more than happy to confirm to him that Ards and North Down Borough Council will receive £105,167·52, as well as what he heard previously for Newry, Mourne and Down District Council, both of which, I am sure, he is interested in.”
“I absolutely agree. We often hear about the voluntary and community sectors, but I believe that that should encompass the voluntary, community and faith sectors, because faith organisations and the Churches play a huge role in how we deal with and tackle some of the most pressing issues that face people in Northern Ireland. I will always be a voice for faith communities, which do so much work in that area and have often felt that their contribution has been ignored by government. I am more than happy to ensure that we give that recognition and that there are opportunities for faith-based organisations to become more involved.”
“It is right that we stood against that and made our opposition known, but now we need to make sure that we have help for those who are in need.”
“I am disappointed to hear that that is the case in Belfast City Council. That absolutely should not be the way that it is done. I want to make sure that it gets to everybody who needs access to it, wherever they live in Northern Ireland. People should not be discriminated against on the basis of where they are from. Having taken that comment on board, I will look at the memorandum of understanding that we have with councils to make sure that there is a fair and equitable distribution, because people will need the help. <BR /> <BR />The Member is absolutely right to highlight the fact that the cut to the winter fuel payment that was made by the Labour Government — the SDLP's sister party — has the potential to cause extra difficulty for people this winter.”
“All of that is necessary, but, right now, I am helping those who find themselves in debt by trying something innovative to make sure that funding gets out to all parts of Northern Ireland, including the Foyle constituency.”
“There is, of course, a role for the PSNI, and we need to take that dual approach, whereby we take action against paramilitary activity but also encourage those who are prepared to transition to move away from paramilitarism. <BR /> <BR />There is a bigger question here, is there not? Ultimately, it comes down to how we deal with deprivation and poverty in our society. That is why I will bring an anti-poverty strategy to the Executive in January. That was a commitment in the Northern Ireland Act 1998. No Minister has delivered on it yet, but, like with so many other things, I am delivering it on behalf of people in Northern Ireland and look forward to bringing forward a strategy that will prevent people from falling into poverty, help those who find themselves in poverty and make sure that there is a route for people to exit poverty.”
“It is disappointing to hear the approach that the Member has taken when we have a good news story here. I note that she missed the previous good news story. When I announced 270 jobs in her constituency, she did not turn up to hear the announcement, but I am glad that I was able to make it. I am also glad that I will be able to deliver further support for her constituency. <BR /> <BR />The Member asked about how we tackle the issues. I agree with her that we need to tackle paramilitary activity and paramilitarism. We need to make sure that people transition. We need to make sure that there is a route for them to do that. I take the Pledge of Office seriously. It states that I should do everything that I can to support those who want to transition away from paramilitary activity.”
“The ultimate aim is not just to get the money out and to get it to organisations but to help people, and that will be done in different ways in different areas, so I want to make sure that the process is as flexible as possible.”
“Yes, I am happy to answer those questions. First, Newry, Mourne and Down District Council will receive £134,498·16, which will go a long way towards helping those who are in need in the area. <BR /> <BR />The money will be administered by councils. I am trying to give them as much flexibility as possible. I just need to ensure that they meet what will be in the memorandum of understanding and adhere to the key points that I outlined in answers to other questions. I am not seeking to tie anybody's hands. I get that there will be unique situations in each council area, and I want to make the process as flexible as possible.”
“I am not being exhaustive in what I say, because we have many organisations. Some of them operate in only one part of Northern Ireland, perhaps. That is why it is so important that we are putting this out to the councils for them to partner. There may not be organisations that can deliver on behalf of everybody in Northern Ireland, but there are organisations that can deliver in specific areas. This is a good, localised way of making sure that we can support those who are in need.”
“Councils will receive an allocation for the fund, and then it will be up to the councils to partner with the organisations that can make a difference. Some of those organisations already do fantastic work, and the link-up between those can happen. As long as they are able to deliver that holistic advice in community-accessible settings, demonstrate improved outcomes for people, have face-to-face and in-person delivery and share learning to inform future approaches, they can get that support. <BR /> <BR />The funding should not be taken as resource to help them carry out the work that they do currently; it should be additional support, but, obviously, the additional funding can help, in the round, with what they are trying to achieve. It will be of real benefit. We have mentioned a couple of organisations, but there are many others.”