Gordon Lyons
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Implementing other recommendations will require further legislation that, I trust, will come in the next mandate, but I can confirm that 60 of the recommendations have already been separately addressed by either the Department or the commission. I hope that that answers his questions.”
“Yes, I do and am happy to share those. The issue has been raised in the Chamber and through Assembly questions. My position is that we want to make it simple and straightforward for people.”
“They also introduce greater flexibility in financial reporting, allowing requirements to be tailored more appropriately, reducing burdens on smaller organisations and ensuring that the system can adapt over time through secondary legislation.”
“If they want to constitute as a Northern Ireland-only charity, they are able to do that, if they believe that that will bring certain benefits.”
“That is similar to what we are trying to do with trustees. Even though you leave your position as a trustee or your position as someone who holds an office in a charity or who has employment in the office, the commissioner will still be able to make a determination that says, "Even though you have left, we are still making this order to t…”
“I do not believe that it was. That was maybe picked up wrong. We are happy to look at and explore that, but that is the information that I have on it. Again, we will have the Committee Stage of the legislation, so we can look into that then.”
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“I cannot comment on what has happened and the responsibilities of those who came before me, but I have always said that, during my time in office, I will get things done to the benefit and betterment of people in Northern Ireland. This decision is another example of that.”
“I thank the Member not only for her question and support but for the work that she has done on the issue for many years. The issue is close to the hearts of many Members around the Chamber. We have all met victims of domestic abuse. We want to do everything that we can to help. <BR /> <BR />The issue has been going on for many years. Back in 2016, there were debates in the House about the need to remove intimidation points. My party and I have supported that for a long time. There has been a number of reviews. Recommendations have been brought forward along with reports. I am glad that we are in a position today to do it.”
“The Housing Executive will oversee implementation of the removal of rule 23. The proposal was consulted on widely. In 2017, there was an extensive public consultation. A comprehensive communications and media plan was drawn up. Five public events were held across Northern Ireland, and 13 further targeted stakeholder events took place. A mailshot was issued to all applicants on the waiting list. A total of 185 responses were received from a wide range of stakeholders. My decision has been welcomed broadly. It will be welcomed by stakeholders outside the Chamber, and, judging from the comments that we have heard so far, it has been widely welcomed in the Chamber.”
“That is an important question. We will take time to examine properly the entirety of the issue and ensure that we get it right. We will welcome input from the Member and others as we seek to ensure that we have a system that is fit for purpose and reflects accurately the existing need.”
“We always keep those issues under review. It is clear that there is a balance to be struck to ensure that we always have the right homes for the right people who need them, with the right adaptations or whatever else it might be. At the same time, we understand the importance of succession, especially when families have been established and people have been living in those homes. If the Member has a particular case that she wants to raise with me, I will be happy to look at that.”
“I am certainly happy to make that available to the Member and the entire House.”
“First and foremost, it levels the playing field. I have heard from housing associations and from Members across the House about the unfairness of people being treated differently because of the cause of violence. I hope that this sends a strong message that we do not believe that domestic violence is any less worthy a reason for people getting the support that they need. I do not believe that it should ever be seen that way. It is an exceptionally serious issue that devastates lives and has generational impacts. I hope that the statement sends a clear message across Northern Ireland that it is not acceptable and that we will support the victims on a level playing field with everyone else.”
“That is an operational matter for the Housing Executive. I am always happy to talk to the Housing Executive if additional resource is required, but that is not something that has been raised specifically with me by the Housing Executive, as it has control over its budget and how it is allocated. As always, I will be happy to discuss this further with the Member or with the Housing Executive if it is a pressing issue that needs to be addressed.”
“The Member is absolutely right to raise that issue, because I think, and I hope, that it is the ambition of everybody in the Chamber to see an end to paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. I do not believe that there was ever justification for paramilitary activity, and I certainly do not believe that there is justification for paramilitary activity today. I will work with the Justice Minister and others to end paramilitary activity and the coercive control that can come from it. Today is an important step in making sure that, regardless of the cause of violence, we have a level playing field to protect victims, because that should be our main responsibility and focus.”
“Yes, sorry: the police and verification. There are existing systems in place using the PSNI and voluntary and community sector organisations and others. That will continue, but I also expect it to be reviewed, because we need to make sure that the system is as robust as possible. I understand that concerns have been expressed about that, but I hope that we will be able to get a system in place that everybody has confidence in.”
“I thank the Member for her kind words, which are reflective of where many in the Chamber are: they have seen the issues that these intimidation points have caused in the past. They will be removed, and primary social needs will be looked at. That review will take place. The Member mentioned in particular some issues around human trafficking, and all that can form part of where we go from here. <BR /> <BR />In relation to — sorry, what was the Member's other question?”
“We will be working together to do this as soon as possible, and it is certainly our intention to have this done by the end of the financial year.”
“I thank the Member for her comments, and I welcome her interest in the issue. She has raised it with me on a number of occasions, and I know that she will be pleased with the outcome and with the impact that this will have, as she rightly said, on victims in Northern Ireland. I am committed to doing this as quickly as possible. I think that that is what Members across the Chamber want to see happen. I believe that that will be done by the end of this financial year. Obviously, we need to work in coordination with the Housing Executive on that. I have to say that I have a very good relationship with the Housing Executive and with Grainia Long, who is doing a very good job in her role as chief executive.”
“That is an important review that will need to take place. We should make sure that we get it right, because it will have a huge impact on the allocation and on the lists. That will take time. I do not expect that to be done this year. I think that it will be later on into next year before that is completed. We want that done as quickly as possible, but, obviously, we want it to be as comprehensive as possible as well.”
“I have taken that on board, and I have taken action. <BR /> <BR />The Member also raised issues in relation to a transition phase. Obviously, we want to move to that next phase, and we want to do that as quickly as possible. However, I want to be fair to those who have already gone through the process, and that is why those who have already been awarded points will retain those points until they turn down two reasonable offers of accommodation or find a suitable home.”
“First, I agree with the Member that it is a horrendous situation that the innocent victims of domestic abuse are often the ones who have their lives most uprooted. That should not be the case, but we have to deal with the applicants as they come to us, and that is why I want to make sure that there is that level playing field right across Northern Ireland in regard to the points. <BR /> <BR />I cannot comment on the actions of the previous Minister, but, from my point of view, I have always said that I am a Minister who wants to get things done, to move forward and to make sure that we are delivering for people in Northern Ireland. That is what we are doing today. I received the research and the recommendations, and I considered what the housing associations and what many Members across the House have said to me.”
“I want to go beyond removal, and I have asked the Housing Executive to review the primary social needs criteria and points in the scheme and to bring forward those proposals as part of the fundamental review. This decision will ultimately support the Executive’s focus on ending violence against women and girls as set out in the draft Programme for Government. I commend the statement to the House.”
“Therefore, I will urgently consider how that support to victims may continue without there being an unsustainable impact on the budget. I assure Members that I will carefully consider the way forward, including any advice or recommendation that is received from the Housing Executive. <BR /> <BR />I have taken the decision to ensure that the points for violence or threat of violence in the scheme will not exclude any victim of abuse, violence or trauma. That will level the playing field and enable the Housing Executive to award primary social needs points based on the impact on victims, regardless of the cause. As I have said, I want to do more.”
“Those are transitional arrangements to protect those who have already been awarded points and those whose application is in train. <BR /> <BR />Work on the fundamental review of the scheme is making progress, with nine of the 20 proposals implemented already. Work continues on the remaining proposals. I want to use the opportunity to do more, so I have asked the Housing Executive to take forward work to review the primary social needs criteria and points for all victims of violence, abuse and trauma as soon as possible and to engage with stakeholders to inform what the prospective changes will look like. I will also consider the impact on the emergency grant. As it stands, if access to the grant were widened to all victims of violence, it would have substantial cost implications.”
“It is an important step forward that all those who are victims of violence, harassment or trauma for any reason, including domestic abuse, will be able to access the same categories of points in the scheme. I have tasked the Housing Executive with removing rule 23 by the end of this financial year. <BR /> <BR />There will be transitional protection. Applicants who have alleged intimidation and whose circumstances are being considered under rule 23 prior to its removal will be investigated in line with the existing policies and procedures. Applicants who have already been awarded 200 points under rule 23 will retain those points until they are rehoused or until they refuse two reasonable offers of accommodation.”
“Indeed, the Housing Executive will continue to facilitate specialist tailored support for customers who are impacted on by violence, abuse or trauma. <BR /> <BR />My decision today is focused on the housing selection scheme, which operates separately from the provision of temporary emergency accommodation under the homelessness legislation. The housing selection scheme is the mechanism for assessing objective housing need in order to make an allocation of a permanent social home. Going forward, the points for violence or the threat of violence in the scheme will not exclude any victim of abuse, violence or trauma. Regardless of causation, victims will be assessed using the same criteria that are in the housing selection scheme.”
“The allocation of 200 points will cease. The independent research, which included extensive stakeholder engagement, and the Housing Executive's consideration of the options informed the decision. Applicants who have experienced violence or abuse or who are at risk of violence or abuse, whatever the motivation and whomever the perpetrator, will continue to be assessed and provided with emergency assistance under the homelessness legislation. The removal of intimidation points will not alter the Housing Executive's duty to support those who need such emergency assistance and find themselves unable to remain in their home. The provision of emergency temporary accommodation will remain under the homelessness legislation.”
“Following careful consideration and in line with the Housing Executive's recommendation, I am announcing today that intimidation points, in the form of rule 23 of the selection scheme, will be removed.”
“I am keen to ensure that victims of violence and those who are at risk of violence, including victims of domestic abuse, are prioritised appropriately. We must be more focused on how violence, or the threat of violence, affects a victim and their ability to remain in their home. <BR /> <BR />My Department has worked with the Housing Executive on a fundamental review of how social homes are allocated, with the aim of making the process fairer and more transparent. A public consultation on 20 proposals for change took place in 2017. The Housing Executive commissioned independent research to inform the future of intimidation points through a range of options.”
“I will update the Assembly on the housing selection scheme and the ongoing, fundamental review of social housing allocations. I have carefully considered the evidence available and, today, made a decision on the matter of intimidation points. <BR /> <BR />It has long been a source of frustration to me, along with many others in the Chamber, that the selection scheme treats victims of violence differently, based on the cause of that violence. A victim of terrorism receives more points than a victim of domestic abuse. Someone who has been targeted because of their ethnic identity receives more points than someone who has been targeted because of their gender. We must level the playing field for victims of violence.”
“Ultimately, that will be a decision for the Executive to make. However, I am clear that, if we are real about tackling the issue, the appropriate money needs to be attached to the strategy. It is not just about the individual actions that we can take; it is about everything that we do in the Government. We need to make it as easy as possible for people to escape poverty and make sure that we help those who find themselves in poverty. I hope that Ministers will take it seriously and that we will allocate the necessary resources to make sure that we can help those who are in need. <BR /> <BR />I am grateful that the motion was brought to the House today. I am determined that we will take action on the issue for the betterment of everyone in Northern Ireland, but particularly for those children who are suffering.”
“The decisions that we make around energy, the decisions that we make around the cost of living and the decisions that we make that can make it more difficult to build homes or to get essentials: those decisions have an impact and put pressure on people's budgets. In the past, we have not always been aware of that, and it is something that we should keep in mind. <BR /> <BR />When I introduce the anti-poverty strategy, it will be clear: we will do everything that we can to prevent people getting into poverty; we will help people who find themselves in poverty; and, importantly, we will make sure that there is an escape route for people.”
“I said that they would be made by the end of March, and we have not yet reached that stage. The payments are all being done together. It is wrong of him to feign surprise in some way that the payments have not been made yet, when I was always crystal clear with the House. It is very important that that is taken on board. <BR /> <BR />There is also something else that we, as a House, need to do. It is important, as we will see in the anti-poverty strategy, that we do everything that we can to increase people's incomes, provide more work, provide more opportunities and break down barriers to work. We also need to think about people's outgoings. It is really important that, when we make decisions in the House, we understand that they will have consequences for people out there.”
“That is simply not accurate. I never said that the payments would start in December. I always said that they would be made by the end of March.”
“I take issue, in particular, with a comment made by Mr Durkan about the timing of the winter fuel payment. I believe that he was trying to present it as some sort of great revelation that the payments would not be made until the end of March this year. I have been honest and upfront with the House. The statement that I made in November last year was very clear about the timing. I was upfront and honest about the timings. It is disingenuous of the Member to suggest that, in some way, we have not been able to achieve any targets that we have set.”
“<BR /> <BR />A number of other comments were raised during the debate that are worthy of discussion. First, it is important to note that we are on the same page on a number of issues. We previously discussed the impact of the two-child limit, how unfair that is and the real impact that it has on families. We talked about the importance of affordable childcare — I completely agree about that — and about the five-week wait for those on universal credit. It is worth highlighting, once more, the fantastic work that the Trussell Trust and others do. I again give a special mention to Christians Against Poverty for its work, especially on debt advice, and for the help that it gives to those who experience debt. <BR /> <BR />I want to address a few other comments.”
“According to the latest official statistics, the percentage of children living in relative poverty in Scotland increased from 23% in 2021-22 to 26% in 2022-23. She mentioned, in particular, the impact of the child payment. I do not believe that we have evidence yet that it has been effective, which is why we need to focus on the right actions and make sure that we take steps that actually make a difference. <BR /> <BR />The concerns expressed today illustrate the seriousness with which the Assembly views the issues involved. I think that we share a common purpose today. I look forward to working with Executive colleagues, Members of the Assembly and our partners in wider society in a coordinated and effective way as we move forward and change for the better and for the betterment of the lives of children in Northern Ireland.”
“That is real, concrete action, and I will continue to work alongside my Executive colleagues to tackle poverty across our society. Together, we will identify and implement effective and sustainable actions that will address the immediate pressures faced by children living in poverty and their families, and, through developing an anti-poverty strategy, we will seek to provide long-term solutions for their future. I have listened to the voices of concern, but we need actions, and, more than that, those actions must be the right actions, taken in order to make a real and sustainable difference to people's lives. That is my focus. <BR /> <BR />I noted with interest the comments of the proposer of the motion about the statistics in Scotland. That is an issue to debate on another day. I have some disagreements with the facts that she provided.”
“Responsibility for the majority of the social security system lies, ultimately, with DWP. Since becoming Minister, I have engaged with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other DWP Ministers to make the case for a progressive social security system that is better designed to meet the needs of children. I will continue to make the argument for that. <BR /> <BR />I recognise that there are steps that we can and must take at a local level as well. For example, my Department recently completed a comprehensive review of the current welfare mitigation schemes. On 5 December, I took the decision to announce that all existing welfare mitigations would be extended to March 2028. That extension will provide reassurance to people in receipt of that support who may have been concerned about their future financial stability.”
“An anti-poverty strategy that also addresses child poverty is likely to have a lifespan of 10 years. Given that the strategy will impact on a generation of our population, we need to make sure that it includes the right priorities, the right actions and the right interventions. Given the many competing priorities that we face, it is essential that we focus our efforts on the areas that will yield the greatest benefits. We are taking this work forward at pace, and my officials are engaging with their colleagues in all other Departments. through a cross-departmental working group, to work towards developing an action plan that will underpin our anti-poverty strategy. <BR /> <BR />Today's motion also calls for:”
“We simply cannot lift children out of poverty without addressing the issues that affect their parents, grandparents, carers and all the other people who support them throughout their lives.”
“It is essential that we acknowledge that tacking child poverty means addressing wider issues of disadvantage in our society.”
“Dealing with poverty means not only dealing with low incomes: ensuring that high-skilled and meaningful jobs are available for everyone will be key to dealing with poverty in a sustainable manner. It will also involve us in tackling issues such as educational attainment gaps and health inequalities. <BR /> <BR />While we address those issues, it is essential that we ensure that our society and economy provide opportunities for the future. Much work has been progressed to date that we can take forward and on which we can build. However, it is also important that we learn from what has gone before. In that context, I welcome the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) report on child poverty. It will be included as part of the broader anti-poverty strategy, because child poverty does not exist in a vacuum.”
“It must be deliverable, it must make a tangible difference in people's lives, and, most important, it must recognise how we can get people out of poverty. Work is absolutely essential to that. <BR /> <BR />Following my initial letter to colleagues in autumn 2024, I wrote in December to seek Departments' strategic input to the draft strategy, including policies and actions that will contribute to the delivery of the three key pillars. The majority of departmental inputs were received over the first weeks in January, and officials are incorporating them into a revised draft for my consideration. <BR /> <BR />Worryingly, the most recent statistics published by my Department show a significant increase in the number of children and working-age adults who were living in poverty in 2022-23.”
“<BR /> <BR />Secondly, I highlight my commitment to the anti-poverty strategy and its delivery. The Executive's anti-poverty strategy, which is in the final stages of development, will be a key component in tackling poverty. My officials are engaging with their colleagues in all other Departments through a cross-departmental working group, so that we can develop an action plan to underpin our anti-poverty strategy. The House will know that I have asked for that work to be prioritised and expedited. I previously said to the House that it was my intention to get the strategy to the Executive by the end of this financial year, but I can let the House know today that it will be with the Executive in February — within a matter of weeks. <BR /> <BR />It is important that the anti-poverty strategy is credible.”
“Every Member who is doing their job properly will see for themselves every week the impact that child poverty has. I see it every week, and it is a scourge, not only because of the immediate impacts that it has on our society but because of the long-term consequences. We know that it can result in poorer outcomes in the education, health and well-being of our people. Those are generational problems. <BR /> <BR />First, I thank all those who work in the sector and do so much to help people in need. They help those who need support not only by providing the essentials but, often, by offering a listening ear, talking to people and signposting them to other help. The situation has an impact on those who serve in that way as well, so we should thank them for what they have done.”
“Sometimes, it is because of benefit delays, benefit changes, income not covering basic costs, changes in circumstances or family breakdown. People have to avail themselves of the services for different reasons. Often, unfortunately, a sense of shame, embarrassment and, perhaps, even stigma comes with that. Having spoken to people who use food banks, I have heard them say things like, "I never thought that I would need to use a food bank". They are people who are in employment. They have jobs but, because of their particular circumstances, have had to use a food bank. They even talk about the shame that they feel when having to use the public entrances to some of the buildings, because they think that others will think less of them because they have to use a food bank. <BR /> <BR />I want to outline my commitment to tackling the issue.”
“Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I begin by thanking Sian Mulholland, the Member for North Antrim, for using the opportunity, through the motion, to highlight the importance of the issue. It is a shame on our society that so many people are being forced to use food parcels. I say clearly that I am determined to do all that I can and all that is in my gift to help those who are in need and to reduce the necessity for such help. We have seen, as was said, a 90% increase in usage over the past five years. Although, since last year, there has been a 13% decrease in the number of people needing to avail themselves of food banks, it is still concerning. <BR /> <BR />Of course, this is about the wider issue of child poverty. Parents, grandparents and guardians have to present for different reasons.”
“I look forward to sharing the information with Executive colleagues and, hopefully, Committee members shortly, but we need to be aware of the significant costs that some of the proposals would entail. If we look towards how we combat poverty across Northern Ireland, all of that should be taken into consideration. We should look at it in the round when the time comes.”
“I do not think there will be anything that we will be able to include in the upcoming Budget. There are significant proposals in there that come at significant cost.”
“I am more than happy to explore that and see what is possible within the boundaries that are set by the Department for Work and Pensions.”
“We have to be cognisant of the differences between urban constituencies, such as the one that the Member represents, and the rural constituencies that myself and Mrs Erskine represent. <BR /> <BR />I want to make it as simple, easy and straightforward as possible to build homes. Yes, absolutely, they should be accessible via public transport as much as possible, but I would not want to create a drag on building homes because, unfortunately, there are already far too many drags on the building of homes. We need to make it as easy, simple and straightforward as possible to build homes.”
“Obviously, we want to make sure that we are building homes where they are needed. We also need to make sure that we are building homes that are accessible, and it is, obviously, a benefit to be accessible by public transport. I would be reluctant to put additional conditions on where houses can be built. We want to increase housing supply, but there are a number of limitations in place, for example around water capacity. I would not want us not to build homes simply because they may not be connected to public transport routes. I sense that Mrs Erskine, who is behind me, is in favour of what I am saying because the Member's suggestion would rule out the building of houses altogether in many areas in her constituency.”
“I will have to come back to the Member on that. I have had much correspondence with the Department of Finance on many areas related to housing, but I do not have the details of when or how often I raised that with the Minister of Finance.”
“I thank the Member for raising that issue as well. It is absolutely right that we have support for all those who find themselves in need regardless of their gender. That is something that I will, obviously, continue to work on and raise with officials. If there are particular issues or geographical areas that the Member wishes to bring to my attention, I am more than happy to make sure that they are explored.”